Remembrance day - are the wrong things remembered?

[wibble]

It seems to me that remembrance day was initially created by the returned soldiers as a day to remember the sacrifice of their comrades in defeating the fascism of the Third Reich and their allies. The main motivation behind this (and I remember being told this as a kid by real veterans) was that they wanted people to ensure that no such war ever happened again. I actually believe that the soldiers themselves weren't at all worried about being remembered individually, they wanted the horror of war to be remembered so that it never happened again.

 

These days remembrance day has been given the Princess Di treatment and it seems like everyone gets dewy eyed at the thought of Great Uncle Alf getting a bit of finely crafted German steel stuck in his guts. It has also been hijacked by Government to justify war and glorify the waste of life.

 

Where are the speeches from church "leaders" and veterans associations condemning unnecessary wars and the rise of neo-fascism and the diminishing rights of the individual?

 

These soldiers fought to protect things like a good education and health system for their kids, for jobs for their kids.

 

The old diggers and tommy's would probably be disgusted to see their great grandchildren leading a life of sloth while all the real rights that they fought for are being stripped away by fear-mongering governments who seem intent on legislating against the common man whilst failing miserably to tackle the top end of crime.

 

Their dream of a country where everyone has access to cheap water, electricity and gas, a good education, fine healthcare and things like public swimming pools, football pitches, libraries and town halls have been sold off to the "free" market and are now just another product to be priced at whatever level the market can bear.

 

 

When we were kids we got one toy at Christmas, but we had a good solid health system, good schools, cheap water, electricity and gas and people who wanted to work were able to do so - mostly with a job for life. Leading a simple life was within the grasp of the whole country. I'm pretty sure that's what these old soldiers fought for and wish that the current generations would fight for too.

 

I really get the feeling that a huge swathe of those who perished would rather that people spent remembrance Sunday writing an abusive letter to an MP or attending an anti-war demo than standing at some cold stone monument with a lump in their throats.

[Tazio]

Remembrance Day started a long time before we had to combat German fascism and the Third Reich.

[wibble]

Remembrance Day started a long time before we had to combat German fascism and the Third Reich.

 

Fair point, but the old soldiers I spoke to were from WW2.

[felix]

Fair point, but the old soldiers I spoke to were from WW2.

 

You'll find an even older soldier, the last British survivor of WWI, in Freemantle. He and the recently departed vetran Harry Patch both shunned the glorification of Armistice.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

I think it's a generational thing.

 

My late grandfather died five years ago this December. He was only 5 feet 4 or something, wanted to join the Navy but was too short and had to sign up for the Army. He never talked about WWII when I was younger but I found out later why. At Dunkirk, he had to shoot his best friend because he was mortally wounded and had to put him out of his misery as it were. He helped to liberate Belsen when the British Army freed the captives in that hellhole and was stationed in Palestine just after the war ended. Basically, after that he didn't want to talk about it although he would occasionally relate the story in quieter moments, mainly to my Dad actually, even though he was my Mum's father.

 

To me, the idea of that wee, half deaf man having to enlist and do his duty for the basic freedom I have is humbling. He was just a simple Tommy like many others. He didn't join any veteran march pasts or anything like that. For him, remembrance was personal and pertinent.

 

So, that's why I wear my poppy with pride. I would say though that the sixties generation eschewed the idea of remembrance as the world was moving on and it was time to look forward. It's our generation who have had to recapture the memories. I would say that some people do look at it with dewy eyed affection and don't look at why these men were fighting. That said, the world of their kids (the baby boomers) has been better than ever before. Their grandkids (Generation X) have been shafted as a consequence!

[Sharpie]

It may be a different perspective because of age but . I have probably made this point before, but I go to a Remembrance Day service and I look at the names and in the case of the WW1 names think of them as eighteen years old in some cases, and died in 1916. I then consider a good friend who was killed in Egypt in 1954. Not in trenches, not in a war for freedom and many noble causes, but stationed in a godforsaken hole to protect his Country's interest in the Suez Canal. Was it a noble death, a blaze of gunfire returned, bayonets flashing not at all. It was a 20 year old guardsman whose job was batman to the Battalion padre, they had been at Port Fouad across the Canal, the young soldier escorting his boss, they were ambushed at an intersection,he was killed by other young men who thought they were striking a blow for their Country. The guardsman was killed about noon. He was buried a couple of days later.

 

When I go to services I think of the 55 years I have had since Ken was killed, all that time he has lain in a grave in Moascar. I also think sadly of the millions of young men who are lying in graves for much longer, eternally at the tender age they were when they were killed. I think of all the things they never done , never saw, and never knew, and particularly on that day give them for a short period my complete, and committed condolences and respect.

 

I am sure the old they volunteered and knew what they were getting into comment will be made at some time. My buddy was a National Serviceman who signed on for extra time to get the pay and benefits. Many of the dead in WW1 were conscripts, and many in WW2 were regular soldiers who were in the army or other service because of the Great Depression unemployment, I have heard it said that if Britain had full employment many of the young men who are in the armed forces now would not be there.

 

I am not a proponent of either Iraq or Afghanistan, I am however an ardent supporter of our military. I am also a very deep believer in the taking of one day to remember those who gave their lives in the service. I have another 364 days to curse politicians, to curse policies made by those who will never fight the battles, and although the perception or fact the services are losing their meaning disturbs me, it does not in any way alter my approach to the day.

[alwaysthereinspirit]

It seems to me that remembrance day was initially created by the returned soldiers as a day to remember the sacrifice of their comrades in defeating the fascism of the Third Reich and their allies. The main motivation behind this (and I remember being told this as a kid by real veterans) was that they wanted people to ensure that no such war ever happened again. I actually believe that the soldiers themselves weren't at all worried about being remembered individually, they wanted the horror of war to be remembered so that it never happened again.

 

These days remembrance day has been given the Princess Di treatment and it seems like everyone gets dewy eyed at the thought of Great Uncle Alf getting a bit of finely crafted German steel stuck in his guts. It has also been hijacked by Government to justify war and glorify the waste of life.

 

Where are the speeches from church "leaders" and veterans associations condemning unnecessary wars and the rise of neo-fascism and the diminishing rights of the individual?

 

These soldiers fought to protect things like a good education and health system for their kids, for jobs for their kids.

 

The old diggers and tommy's would probably be disgusted to see their great grandchildren leading a life of sloth while all the real rights that they fought for are being stripped away by fear-mongering governments who seem intent on legislating against the common man whilst failing miserably to tackle the top end of crime.

 

Their dream of a country where everyone has access to cheap water, electricity and gas, a good education, fine healthcare and things like public swimming pools, football pitches, libraries and town halls have been sold off to the "free" market and are now just another product to be priced at whatever level the market can bear.

 

 

When we were kids we got one toy at Christmas, but we had a good solid health system, good schools, cheap water, electricity and gas and people who wanted to work were able to do so - mostly with a job for life. Leading a simple life was within the grasp of the whole country. I'm pretty sure that's what these old soldiers fought for and wish that the current generations would fight for too.

 

I really get the feeling that a huge swathe of those who perished would rather that people spent remembrance Sunday writing an abusive letter to an MP or attending an anti-war demo than standing at some cold stone monument with a lump in their throats.

 

You have absolutely no right giving your opinion on what men who fought or who might have even died during war times would be thinking today. Rememberance is a personal thing. Whatever way individuals decide to celebrate it is the right way.

You've had a hair across your @$$ for the past few weeks about something and my personnel opinion is it's getting old.

Your posts about cheap this and good that are your own personnel beliefs

[wibble]

You have absolutely no right giving your opinion on what men who fought or who might have even died during war times would be thinking today. Rememberance is a personal thing. Whatever way individuals decide to celebrate it is the right way.

You've had a hair across your @$$ for the past few weeks about something and my personnel opinion is it's getting old.

Your posts about cheap this and good that are your own personnel beliefs

 

Sorry, but I thought that's what the Shed was for. To discuss our various personal beliefs and debate them with others.

 

If you actually read my post a lot of what I talk about is from what we were told back in the 70's by old soldiers who spoke to us at BB's, school and Sunday school.

 

Of course remembrance is personal, but it shouldn't and was never intended to be exclusively about the individual soldier. I was always told it was about remaining vigilant about our personal freedoms and the privilidges that our society offers us, so that no-one ever takes them from us.

 

Our soldiers died to protect the basic things I talk about and yet our generation sits back and lets crooked governments take them away and sell them to shareholders.

 

I am asking the question - Would those men who died in the war be proud of this generation for selling all of the countries assets, for running schools and hospitals into the gound, for leaving homeless people out on the cold streets, for spending trillions on war in non-event countries?

 

Maybe if you spend 3 minutes thinking about the values of that generation you will remember that they campaigned long and hard for a 40 hour week, for a health service, for social security, for better education and hospitals and doctors for all. Maybe then you will realise that the working class men who you get glassy eyed for would probably rather that you defended some of the rights that they fought and died for.

 

That's what makes Brits different from Yanks. Brits always wanted a secure and providing society. Yanks wanted to sell it from under the feet of their countrymen from day one. I prefer the old British values myself.

 

They gave me the right to spout whatever crap I like on JKB without having you to tell me to shut up. They also gave you the right not to read what I write.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

I think you are asking a different question though MJ viz what is freedom. You are equating that to the structure of society, which is a big leap.

[wibble]

I think you are asking a different question though MJ viz what is freedom. You are equating that to the structure of society, which is a big leap.

 

Not really. What I am saying is that perhaps people's idea of the day is very different to what was hoped for by the soldiers themselves. People don't stand up for themselves anymore and the soldiers were setting the greatest example of fighting for your rights that any of us could imagine.

 

Of course the definition of freedom has changed, along with the images associated with the soldiers. If you wear the boots they wore, have the haircut many of them had and drape yourself in a British flag you are more than likely a neo-nazi. Now that must have a few old bones rattling in disgust.

 

Basically many of the things that the soldiers stood for has been twisted around to justify war and to promote neo-nazism.

 

I was going to put a "don't shoot me, this is just a point for discussion" at the top of the thread, but I figured that's a bit of a cop-out in itself.

 

I respect everyones right to treat remembrance as they see fit, but I also value my right to question it's position today and to point out that it's a lot more focused on the death of individuals than about ensuring that a great war never happens again.

 

As it stands it has little value other than to show respect. I have a feeling that many who died hoped that they would be the last generation affected by war and that it is our duty to ensure that governments don't throw soldiers into battle on a whim or a lie.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Not really. What I am saying is that perhaps people's idea of the day is very different to what was hoped for by the soldiers themselves. People don't stand up for themselves anymore and the soldiers were setting the greatest example of fighting for your rights that any of us could imagine.

 

Yet you could argue that the protests against the second instalment of Iraq brought an amazing number of people onto the streets. Ditto the poll tax riots. I agree in part though. Freedom being taken for granted paradoxically makes people less engaged in democratic processes with voting, for example, being classed as a burden rather than something to be cherished.

 

Of course the definition of freedom has changed, along with the images associated with the soldiers. If you wear the boots they wore, have the haircut many of them had and drape yourself in a British flag you are more than likely a neo-nazi. Now that must have a few old bones rattling in disgust.

 

 

Basically many of the things that the soldiers stood for has been twisted around to justify war and to promote neo-nazism.

 

Indeed so, but in reverse it doesn't help either when people waving the Union Flag are immediately dismissed by some as neo-Nazis.

 

 

I respect everyones right to treat remembrance as they see fit, but I also value my right to question it's position today and to point out that it's a lot more focused on the death of individuals than about ensuring that a great war never happens again.

 

As it stands it has little value other than to show respect. I have a feeling that many who died hoped that they would be the last generation affected by war and that it is our duty to ensure that governments don't throw soldiers into battle on a whim or a lie.

 

It's an interesting point though because the bottom line is that the conflicts Britain, say, have been involved in since WWII have needed 'justification' for any reason to commit troops. Leaving aside Iraq, because the reasons given for that conflict were patently false, there were justifiable reasons for those conflicts even if people didn't necessarily agree with them. For example, in the Falklands there were people asking why the UK owned this remnant of the Empire in the first place and yet there was a wholly justifiable reason of people having the right to self-determination, which is a glorious democratic principle.

 

The damage done to the 'morality' of the Armed Forces by Iraq will be felt in generations to come.

[jamboron]

#6 Excellent post from Bob Sharp which really "hammers it home to you" to give one day a year to think about & show respect to the millions from all countries, who gave their all to serve their country 1 day a year isn`t a lot of time to give up, to remember them all.

[Miller Jambo 60]

#6 Excellent post from Bob Sharp which really "hammers it home to you" to give one day a year to think about & show respect to the millions from all countries, who gave their all to serve their country 1 day a year isn`t a lot of time to give up, to remember them all.

 

They have to remembered and the way its done is the best option.

Dont see the problem.

[I P Knightley]

Excellent and thought-provoking posts from MJ, Geoff & Bob.

 

Armistice Day and Remembrance Sunday tend to invoke in me more the feelings described in Melbourne Jambo's OP. I get angry at the futility of war and the needless waste of young lives. I'm mid '40s and I don't have any direct family links with or stories of casualties so don't identify as closely with the victims as much as, say, Geoff.

 

Therefore, I have these mixed feelings around this time of year. I try to imagine the fear, horror, loyalty and glory of these young kids being led into battle by politicians and gentry who keep themselves safe and distant from the battles. I try to take myself back 90-odd years: what would I have done? Worse - how would I cope if it were any of my kids being taken into battle? In a way, when I pay my respects to the fallen, I am picturing it being my own kids.

 

Whilst I am eternally grateful that those men fought to protect my future, I am also enormously frustrated that this country has had leaders who have mis-managed the resources given to them.

 

(Unfortunately, my frame of reference for politicians is the dishonourable rabble of scoundrels we've had to endure for the last 25 years or so. It may colour my judgement!)

 

Eric Bogle summed it up beautifully with the lyrics to Green Fields of France - paying reverence to an individual while questioning the good done by the war:

 

And I can't help but wonder, no Willie McBride,

Do all those who lie here know why they died?

Did you really believe them when they told you "The Cause?"

Did you really believe that this war would end wars?

Well the suffering, the sorrow, the glory, the shame

The killing, the dying, it was all done in vain,

For Willie McBride, it all happened again,

And again, and again, and again, and again.

[Buffalo Bill]

I guess it's a personal thing but I believe that Remembrance is worth just that: remembering.

 

 

When I was at Tynecastle last Sunday, I thought of two things during the service. One, was the BBC programme 'Supreme Sacrifice', and what bravery and dignity was shown by our players in what were some of the most hellish conditions ever known to man. The other was a newspaper article I once read which described the war as 'a catastrophic waste of life', condemning the British aristocracy and tactics used by the army generals in The Great War. The person writing it was no bleeding heart either.

 

Part of me thinks that our WWI chiefs were fighting for our way of life; or at least - to protect The Empire. The other makes me think that the soldiers were callously sent to their death by thier own so-called superiors because of what the top brass thought it meant to be 'British'.

 

In many ways, World War I achieved little, yet that is measured against incredible bravery by ordinary people. In fact some hisortians see the 20 year interlude between the world wars as little more than a recess. No matter what people think of the First World War, or any other before or since: the reasons for stopping to think about it are well worth it.

[The Doctor]

Great OP MJ, I agree very much with what you say.

 

Much of our remembrance is a romanticised version of the last justifiable war, used by todays governments, in the pockets of big business, to justify todays war for the control of oil reserves.

 

I think is sullies the memory of the veterans of WWII particularly.

 

I will always remember them, I will always respect their sacrifice (not just the dead, but those who came back, to wives and children they barely knew and stuck with it, worked damn hard and never complained, men like my Grandfathers and my wife's Grandfathers, truly great men, they sacrificed much too), but I am abhored by the hijacking of such remembrance to justify the blood of our young men so that Esso, BP, Shell et al can line the pockets of Blair and Bush.

[bighusref]

My own personal opinion is that it is a day to remember the fallen.

 

At the risk of simplifying it, I see it as a day to remember every single soldier, irrespective of nationality. Soldiers do not pick where to go, it is not their motivation to go to "war" with specific countries, and often times they are "forced" to go.

 

I don't wish to get into the rights or wrongs of why they were there, I just feel having one day a year where we "remember them" is a fitting tribute.

[Deevers]

Both my Grandfathers fought during WW1 - both were wounded at Cambrai. I have very special memories of standing with one of them at the stone at the City Chambers on Armistice Sunday many years ago as a child and watching the tears well up in his eyes during the minutes silence as he remembered those he had seen die and his friends who served with other regiments and did not return home.

 

I don't think that he had any romanticised view on war - that aspect of things is now left to revisionist historians or those who really have little real idea of what drove the men of 1914/18. What I do know is that he, like so many of his generation had more humanity, and respect for their fellow human beings, than most people have today.

 

It's a special day and should remain as a special day to remember the fallen.