Martin_T Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 Is everyone aware of this? It came up in a discussion with a few other fans I had on Saturday and none of them were aware of it. According to the current accounts, Hearts are due to repay ?17 million worth of a loan to Ukio Bankas. It is no exaggeration to say that one scenario for this is that it could put the club into liquidation. In the the starkest terms, no Heart of Midlothian football club from January 2010. The current downturn in form of the first team is almost irrelevant in the face of this, yet it is barely discussed. There is of course a potential positive outcome of the loan being capitalised through another debt for equity swap, which remove another ?17 million worth of debt from the HMFC balance sheet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samster Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 Source? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chis101 Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 hibs.net meltdown in 5.....4....3....2.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin_T Posted October 26, 2009 Author Share Posted October 26, 2009 Source? I'm pretty sure it's in the last club accounts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mouse Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 the good news just keeps on coming can hear the tramps already, tick tock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 Martin, it's been mentioned on this board a few times. It's probably not registered with the support because it hasn't been mentioned in any of the mainstream media. Watch out for it being used as a diversionary tactic away from the stickies in the next few days though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flecktimus Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 Is everyone aware of this? It came up in a discussion with a few other fans I had on Saturday and none of them were aware of it. According to the current accounts, Hearts are due to repay ?17 million worth of a loan to Ukio Bankas. It is no exaggeration to say that one scenario for this is that it could put the club into liquidation. In the the starkest terms, no Heart of Midlothian football club from January 2010. The current downturn in form of the first team is almost irrelevant in the face of this, yet it is barely discussed. There is of course a potential positive outcome of the loan being capitalised through another debt for equity swap, which remove another ?17 million worth of debt from the HMFC balance sheet. Been discussed on KB Nothing to worry about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samster Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 I'm pretty sure it's in the last club accounts. Sorry mate, I wasn't trying to be deliberately flipant. This site is just sucking the life out of me today and that caps it off nicely!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin_T Posted October 26, 2009 Author Share Posted October 26, 2009 the good news just keeps on coming can hear the tramps already, tick tock It's not new news, it's been the case since 2007. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenerjambo Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 Is everyone aware of this? It came up in a discussion with a few other fans I had on Saturday and none of them were aware of it. According to the current accounts, Hearts are due to repay ?17 million worth of a loan to Ukio Bankas. It is no exaggeration to say that one scenario for this is that it could put the club into liquidation. In the the starkest terms, no Heart of Midlothian football club from January 2010. The current downturn in form of the first team is almost irrelevant in the face of this, yet it is barely discussed. There is of course a potential positive outcome of the loan being capitalised through another debt for equity swap, which remove another ?17 million worth of debt from the HMFC balance sheet. No sweat, Obua,Witenveem and the once again injured Kingston will be sold for this easily!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamboinglasgow Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 Is everyone aware of this? It came up in a discussion with a few other fans I had on Saturday and none of them were aware of it. According to the current accounts, Hearts are due to repay ?17 million worth of a loan to Ukio Bankas. It is no exaggeration to say that one scenario for this is that it could put the club into liquidation. In the the starkest terms, no Heart of Midlothian football club from January 2010. The current downturn in form of the first team is almost irrelevant in the face of this, yet it is barely discussed. There is of course a potential positive outcome of the loan being capitalised through another debt for equity swap, which remove another ?17 million worth of debt from the HMFC balance sheet. That is interesting. As you say it could go to one of two ways, either lead us into liquidation or mean we have lost ?17m of our debt wiped off (thus leading us with ?17m debt left or there about.) Also would mean the interest payed on a ?17m loan is wiped out, helping the club to have much reduced interest rates and so mean that another wage crisis is unlikely to happen. Is it possible that UKIO will just adjust the loan to lengthen it under Vlads say so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin_T Posted October 26, 2009 Author Share Posted October 26, 2009 Martin, it's been mentioned on this board a few times. It's probably not registered with the support because it hasn't been mentioned in any of the mainstream media. Watch out for it being used as a diversionary tactic away from the stickies in the next few days though! For what it's worth Geoff, if Romanov was considering liquidation as an option, we would have seen no expenditure at all on the first team last summer, as it was we signed a number of players. Two possible outcomes in my opinion are: A) Re-financing the loan, difficult in the current climate. Another debt for equity, costly for UBIG. We may well see a combination of A+B. Either way there is absolutely hee haw we as supporters can do about it, so it really isn't worth worrying about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crossgates jambo Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 That is interesting. As you say it could go to one of two ways, either lead us into liquidation or mean we have lost ?17m of our debt wiped off (thus leading us with ?17m debt left or there about.) Also would mean the interest payed on a ?17m loan is wiped out, helping the club to have much reduced interest rates and so mean that another wage crisis is unlikely to happen. Is it possible that UKIO will just adjust the loan to lengthen it under Vlads say so. Last sentence is the most likely, IMO. If there was any real chance of that getting called in we would have lost most of the team in the last window to get money in. THe fact we didn't says to me that it's in hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 novikovas is apparently worth ?20M. maybe that's why csaba's been told not to risk him (may be complete sheite that i've just made up). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Comedian Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 I've seen it mentioned but i wasn't/am not a shareholder so don't really understand it. Is it true though, surprised there hasn't been a hoo hah about it on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mouse Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 It's not new news, it's been the case since 2007. well it's new news to some Is everyone aware of this? It came up in a discussion with a few other fans I had on Saturday and none of them were aware of it. According to the current accounts, Hearts are due to repay ?17 million worth of a loan to Ukio Bankas. It is no exaggeration to say that one scenario for this is that it could put the club into liquidation. In the the starkest terms, no Heart of Midlothian football club from January 2010. The current downturn in form of the first team is almost irrelevant in the face of this, yet it is barely discussed. There is of course a potential positive outcome of the loan being capitalised through another debt for equity swap, which remove another ?17 million worth of debt from the HMFC balance sheet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-Dizzle Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 novikovas is apparently worth ?20M. maybe that's why csaba's been told not to risk him (may be complete sheite that i've just made up). I would really like to know about the debt. It seems Vlad owes himself money but he can swap the money he owes himself by crediting himself with equity he allreadys owns to clear the debt thats allready his. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamboinglasgow Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 I would really like to know about the debt. It seems Vlad owes himself money but he can swap the money he owes himself by crediting himself with equity he allreadys owns to clear the debt thats allready his. if that is the case, can Vlad write himself a big check to himself to clear the debt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-Dizzle Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 if that is the case, can Vlad write himself a big check to himself to clear the debt. But the laws of hobonomics dictate nothing good can happen at Tynecastle or leith will explode... EDIT: removing the capital L from leith out of sheer contempt for that hole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 I would really like to know about the debt. It seems Vlad owes himself money but he can swap the money he owes himself by crediting himself with equity he allreadys owns to clear the debt thats allready his. the last debt for equity transfer allowed him and/or UBIG a small increase in their share holding. if you grossed up the amount of debt forgiveness for the amount of extra equity it would have valued the whole equity at something like ?90M which obviously isn't realistic therefore a severe 'haircut' was taken by someone. any future debt for equity transfer would appear to even less value for money. i think the repayment due will either be deferred or refinanced in some way. the real finance experts will be able to explain in much better terms. where's sir gay when you need her? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Winstone Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 Is everyone aware of this? It came up in a discussion with a few other fans I had on Saturday and none of them were aware of it. According to the current accounts, Hearts are due to repay ?17 million worth of a loan to Ukio Bankas. It is no exaggeration to say that one scenario for this is that it could put the club into liquidation. In the the starkest terms, no Heart of Midlothian football club from January 2010. The current downturn in form of the first team is almost irrelevant in the face of this, yet it is barely discussed. There is of course a potential positive outcome of the loan being capitalised through another debt for equity swap, which remove another ?17 million worth of debt from the HMFC balance sheet. So Romanov is going to put his own club into liquidation because he can't pay his own bank back? More likely is the payment will be postponed until a later date. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Bill Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 We might need to cash in on Wittenveen early. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Winstone Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 We might need to cash in on Wittenveen early. We could be talking more than we got for Gordon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderstruck Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 Is everyone aware of this? It came up in a discussion with a few other fans I had on Saturday and none of them were aware of it. According to the current accounts, Hearts are due to repay ?17 million worth of a loan to Ukio Bankas. It is no exaggeration to say that one scenario for this is that it could put the club into liquidation. In the the starkest terms, no Heart of Midlothian football club from January 2010. The current downturn in form of the first team is almost irrelevant in the face of this, yet it is barely discussed. There is of course a potential positive outcome of the loan being capitalised through another debt for equity swap, which remove another ?17 million worth of debt from the HMFC balance sheet. I'm pretty sure it's in the last club accounts. Whether or not this is fact you don't seem so convinced as two minutes after posting what reads as a fairly definitive and informed post you tell us you are "pretty sure". Presumably, you had a cursory read of the accounts prior to posting. Maybe sticking to facts, while counter-intuitive to a large proportion of Kickbackers, would help moderate the blood pressure of a few readers and respondents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deek Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 If we cant pay the ?17 million, we go bust? Then the guy who owns the club will get nothing back from his investment. Hang on a second, its the same person. So what he should do is extend the loan duration and screw the club for more interest, which means we wont be able to buy new players, which means we will probably be worth less than when he bought us, we will go further into debt and he will have to extend the loan duration further. Vicious circle. To be honest I was hoping Ukio go bust and we are sold for a knock down price to somebody genuinely willing to invest in the club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Albert Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 There are really fans out there who don't realise that our continued existence in our current form is entirely at Vlad's whim? Wow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Comedian Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 There are really fans out there who don't realise that our continued existence in our current form is entirely at Vlad's whim? Wow. Hey, at least this news will allow the 'medja' to divert everyone's attention away from Rangers current plight. Good stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crossgates jambo Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 Hey, at least this news will allow the 'medja' to divert everyone's attention away from Rangers current plight. Good stuff. Why would they want to divert the attention? It's massive news and will sell a lot of papers for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DETTY29 Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 I ain't no hobo-nomic but I'd imagine a) the loan will be refinanced / rolled over, but at a higher margin, and maybe even a hefty admin fee. This will lead to a further tightening of belts to make (New Hearts or whatever our subsiduary element of UBIG is called) ends meet or A portion of any players sales not required for day to day expenses will be used to reduce (minimally) the ?17m, again at a higher rate of interest and admin fee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adayinmay Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 I've been aware for some time of the alleged repayment required in Jan. Can't see any other outcome other than VR extending the loan deal. More interest from Hearts to UBIG and more time for assets to be developed for sales, Craig Thompson etc. Now that this board is discussing this I'm now counting the minutes until the Fourth Estate start pointing their Crisis stick at us and away from Rangers. Can't believe that Rangers have been in this financial mess for over a year and only now when Walter-mitty sticks his head above the parapet and blows their cover does the Fourth Estate report it. I notice too that it only took 24hrs for BBC Scotland to start playing it all down. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/r/rangers/8324603.stm If that were us we'd have the Nations press broadcasting live 24 hours from Tynecastle waiting with gleeful smiles and champagne at the ready. Paranoid? Only because its true! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin_T Posted October 26, 2009 Author Share Posted October 26, 2009 Whether or not this is fact you don't seem so convinced as two minutes after posting what reads as a fairly definitive and informed post you tell us you are "pretty sure". Presumably, you had a cursory read of the accounts prior to posting. Maybe sticking to facts, while counter-intuitive to a large proportion of Kickbackers, would help moderate the blood pressure of a few readers and respondents. The 'pretty sure' was me doubting my original post as Samster is one of the more clued up contributors on here. As several others have now confirmed, it is in the club accounts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Albert Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 Why would they want to divert the attention? It's massive news and will sell a lot of papers for them. I await the Record's broken Rangers crest and multi-page "Bears Bankrupt" headlines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudi Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 Hey, at least this news will allow the 'medja' to divert everyone's attention away from Rangers current plight. Good stuff. If the media didn't want to bring Rangers current plight to everyone's attention they wouldn't have printed on front and back covers of their papers about them,simples. Jeeso some people just like making up crap for the shear hell of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jam Tarts 1874 Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 The repayment date is actually 7.2.10 and the amount is ?17.6m. The board has talked of further debt to equity so we will see what happens. The wording in the accounts reads as follows: The directors (of HMFC) have received written confirmation from the directors of UAB Ukio Banko Investicine Grupe, that it (UAB Ukio Banko Investicine Grupe) will provide sufficient funding to enable the Company (HMFC) to meet it’s liabilities as they fall due for the foreseeable future. This includes the repayment of ?17.6m of Ukio Bankas loans, should this be necessary. The directors (of HMFC) are satisfied that UAB Ukio Banko Investicine Grupe has sufficient financial resources to fulfil this undertaking. My interpretation is that Romanov has other shareholders to answer to at Ukio Bankas, so he may be forced to pay off some, or all of these loans to the bank from his parent UBIG. Which would mean that we would then be owe UBIG some or all of the ?17.6m, if that were the case then I would expect further debt to equity once the debt is with UBIG rather than Ukio Bankas. Debt to equity still shows as money owed on the balance sheet, but at least we don't pay interest on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin_T Posted October 26, 2009 Author Share Posted October 26, 2009 The repayment date is actually 7.2.10 and the amount is ?17.6m. The board has talked of further debt to equity so we will see what happens. The wording in the accounts reads as follows: The directors (of HMFC) have received written confirmation from the directors of UAB Ukio Banko Investicine Grupe, that it (UAB Ukio Banko Investicine Grupe) will provide sufficient funding to enable the Company (HMFC) to meet it?s liabilities as they fall due for the foreseeable future. This includes the repayment of ?17.6m of Ukio Bankas loans, should this be necessary. The directors (of HMFC) are satisfied that UAB Ukio Banko Investicine Grupe has sufficient financial resources to fulfil this undertaking. My interpretation is that Romanov has other shareholders to answer to at Ukio Bankas, so he may be forced to pay off some, or all of these loans to the bank from his parent UBIG. Which would mean that we would then be owe UBIG some or all of the ?17.6m, if that were the case then I would expect further debt to equity once the debt is with UBIG rather than Ukio Bankas. Debt to equity still shows as money owed on the balance sheet, but at least we don't pay interest on it. http://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/06/debtequityswap.asp Not as I understand it. Equity for debt involves debt being removed from the balance sheet in exchange for a shareholding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crossgates jambo Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 http://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/06/debtequityswap.asp Not as I understand it. Equity for debt involves debt being removed from the balance sheet in exchange for a shareholding. I think you're right. I would question if the other UBIG/UKIO shareholders would agree to effectively write off ?17m for more of a company that they already effectively own, that is also worth considerably less than that ratio - unless we go lock, stock under the ownership of the bank rather than Vlad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 http://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/06/debtequityswap.asp Not as I understand it. Equity for debt involves debt being removed from the balance sheet in exchange for a shareholding. Indeed. If the company is wound up, equity holders are last in the queue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin_T Posted October 26, 2009 Author Share Posted October 26, 2009 I think you're right. I would question if the other UBIG/UKIO shareholders would agree to effectively write off ?17m for more of a company that they already effectively own, that is also worth considerably less than that ratio - unless we go lock, stock under the ownership of the bank rather than Vlad. That's not necessarily how it would work though. Potentially UBIG could repay the loan to UKIO and then do the equity for debt swap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Comedian Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 If the media didn't want to bring Rangers current plight to everyone's attention they wouldn't have printed on front and back covers of their papers about them,simples. Jeeso some people just like making up crap for the shear hell of it. Consult post 30. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Old Tolbooth Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 To be honest I was hoping Ukio go bust and we are sold for a knock down price to somebody genuinely willing to invest in the club. We can but live in hope mate! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysterion Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 Paranoid? Only because its true! take a listen to tonight's Paper Talk (Radio Scotland on iPlayer). pretty much had Jim Traynor and 4 journos admitting that the press (not necessarily themselves though) have given Rangers/Celtic/David Murray/Walter Smith and countless other OF characters an easy ride. You'll listen to it going "i thought as much" over and over again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jam Tarts 1874 Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 http://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/06/debtequityswap.asp Not as I understand it. Equity for debt involves debt being removed from the balance sheet in exchange for a shareholding. No, the ?12m is still on the accounts and part of our ?30m debt. That is why so many were confused as to why we are still ?30m in debt despite all the cuts and player sales. UBIG in effect bought 34,285,714 shares at 35p each costing ?12m, the cost of which is a debt to Hearts. However as I understand the transaction, that ?12m will not appear on the accounts for year ending 31.7.09. because it was a one off cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambojim52 Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 For what it's worth Geoff, if Romanov was considering liquidation as an option, we would have seen no expenditure at all on the first team last summer, as it was we signed a number of players. Two possible outcomes in my opinion are: A) Re-financing the loan, difficult in the current climate. Another debt for equity, costly for UBIG. We may well see a combination of A+B. Either way there is absolutely hee haw we as supporters can do about it, so it really isn't worth worrying about. You were the one who brought it up and now say it's not worth worrying about? You should have kept quiet and the media and the hobo's would have been none the wiser! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jam Tarts 1874 Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 That's not necessarily how it would work though. Potentially UBIG could repay the loan to UKIO and then do the equity for debt swap. That is how I read it. The ?12m that was converted last year was debt to UBIG, as Romanov owns about 75% of UBIG that was easy for him to do. Technically his shareholding in Ukio Bankas is only about 35% although members of his family own enough shares for him to still have a controlling share, but at the same time he can't just ride roughshot all over the other shareholders, so I think he may pay the debt to the bank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 [/size] You were the one who brought it up and now say it's not worth worrying about? You should have kept quiet and the media and the hobo's would have been none the wiser! Yes, but it has had the side effect of bringing a few hobos out to play! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crossgates jambo Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 That's not necessarily how it would work though. Potentially UBIG could repay the loan to UKIO and then do the equity for debt swap. I honestly don't know Martin_T I was just putting it out there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Verminator Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 Tin hat on here as I`m going to mention the word "flats" I cannot honestly see Vlad flushing us down the pipes cos surely he would lose hand over fist finanicially. If he was going to kill us off, does anyone know how much we are worth and I mean everything down to the last lighbulb. The property market has crashed since the dark days of Cala and I just can`t see Vlad making any money out of it. I fear he may be around for a while to come whilst the fare on the pitch just gets harder and harder to watch. However, to cheer me up, we have an upcoming derby, and we all know what way they go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin_T Posted October 26, 2009 Author Share Posted October 26, 2009 [/size] You were the one who brought it up and now say it's not worth worrying about? You should have kept quiet and the media and the hobo's would have been none the wiser! Jim, it's been in the accounts since 2007, the same accounts published to all shareholders. Irrespective of what Hibs supporters and the media do/think, it's still going to be an issue for HMFC and it concerned me that a sizeable chunk of our support was oblivious to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crossgates jambo Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 Tin hat on here as I`m going to mention the word "flats" I cannot honestly see Vlad flushing us down the pipes cos surely he would lose hand over fist finanicially. If he was going to kill us off, does anyone know how much we are worth and I mean everything down to the last lighbulb. The property market has crashed since the dark days of Cala and I just can`t see Vlad making any money out of it. I fear he may be around for a while to come whilst the fare on the pitch just gets harder and harder to watch. However, to cheer me up, we have an upcoming derby, and we all know what way they go. Behave! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin_T Posted October 26, 2009 Author Share Posted October 26, 2009 No, the ?12m is still on the accounts and part of our ?30m debt. That is why so many were confused as to why we are still ?30m in debt despite all the cuts and player sales. UBIG in effect bought 34,285,714 shares at 35p each costing ?12m, the cost of which is a debt to Hearts. However as I understand the transaction, that ?12m will not appear on the accounts for year ending 31.7.09. because it was a one off cost. Sorry but that is nonsense. When debt is converted into shares it no longer appears on a companies balance sheet. Ordinary shares are not debt instruments, they are shares in the ownership of the company. UBIG couldn't buy Hearts shares using Hearts money, what would be the point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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