Scottish independence.

[ToYouToMe]

No brainer, Yes.

 

Denmark 5 million people, Scotland 5 million people.

 

Denmark, economically sound with a positive business culture ...high social, health and welfare standards ... politically liberal/left of centre ... its population has the highest subjective feeling of social wellbeing of any country in the world.

 

This despite the fact that Scotland has greater natural resources of oil, forestry, wind and wave power ... and a significantly more beatiful natural landscape which draws tourists from all over the world.

 

Despite that, under UK rule Scotland has entrenched long-term unemployment, social and health problems that are amongst the worst anywhere in Western Europe. Thats never been addressed by London government and never will be.

 

If we want to address these problems (and many would rather ignore them) then the only way to resolve them, is to take full responsibility and address our own problems directly.

 

Well said that man! YES vote from me too.

[Rubicon]

I'm all for independence. There are countries smaller than us that manage just fine so why can't we? I don't think it'll happen though.

 

It certainy won't with a defeatest attitude like that.

 

Have the courage vote yes next year !

[Rubicon]

Didn't Labour want to "bring a referendum vote on"?

 

Why are they voting against it?

 

I would think they'd be keen to have it before they take a battering off the tories anyway.

 

That was a shout from Bendy Alexander when Salmond wound her up so much she cracked up.

 

Officailly Labour would never vote for a referendum in case it was a yes vote in which case they would be finished in this country.

 

The difference with the Tories - which is why the referrndum will be after the next U.K. general Elction - is that they will "negotiate" with the people of Scotland if that is their wish !

[rossthejambo]

Post-independence the SNP wouldn't be running the country. Or at least not unless they've been elected to do so. There would be an election post-independence where Scottish parties of the left, right and centre stand for election. As in any other election, you'd then vote for the party that most concurs with your own views.

 

But as to whether any party in any country at any time in history has ever PROVEN they could run their country properly in advance of a parliamentary election...you're setting the bar too high mate ! We all just vote according to our beliefs and hope for the best at the end of the day...

 

Fair point mate, maybe I am expecting a bit too much of politicians.

 

I think that more powers should probably be given to the Scottish Parliament first, before total independence.

[Rubicon]

No brainer, Yes.

 

Denmark 5 million people, Scotland 5 million people.

 

Denmark, economically sound with a positive business culture ...high social, health and welfare standards ... politically liberal/left of centre ... its population has the highest subjective feeling of social wellbeing of any country in the world.

 

This despite the fact that Scotland has greater natural resources of oil, forestry, wind and wave power ... and a significantly more beatiful natural landscape which draws tourists from all over the world.

 

Despite that, under UK rule Scotland has entrenched long-term unemployment, social and health problems that are amongst the worst anywhere in Western Europe. Thats never been addressed by London government and never will be.

 

If we want to address these problems (and many would rather ignore them) then the only way to resolve them, is to take full responsibility and address our own problems directly.

 

I could not agree more, well said.

[Rubicon]

The independence presented by the SNP is fairly stupid IMO, e.g. keep the queen as head of state and also continue using the pound (albeit pegged against the english pound!) will never work.

 

A proper independence, where we have access to the money earned from oil sales and a complete break from the rest of the UK and I think it would have a chance

 

I think you will find that would be the first point to negotiate on the indepedance referendum with Englandshire.

 

Secondly if you read any of the documents it seems quite clear that a second referendum - to join the Euro rather than keep Sterling -would hotly follow if there was a yes vote and a settlement agreed with the Toty Government.

[Rubicon]

What I find amazing is that if the unionists are so confident that the Scottish people don't want independence why not let them decide in a referendum and put the matter to rest for a generation.

 

Because they are frightened of a yes vote and they know it is coming and will do anything to avoid the referendum.

 

Just look at this poll's stats though !

[Rubicon]

I don't really agree with this. I'm 21 and I feel Scottish, not British. But I would not vote for independence unless the SNP, or some other party, could prove to me that they could run the country properly.

 

Hows does any party prove they could run a country until they are given the chance ?

 

It is like asking Mad Vlad to prove he could run this team before he was "allowed to buy it" !

 

Look at what the Scottish Government (a minority government) has achieved financially for the benefit of most, particularly in your age group.

 

They have two major financial failings so far IMO

 

1st the trams which they did not want but other parties forced on them

2nd No abolition of the unfair Council Tax in favour of local income tax

 

In independant Scotland does not neccessarily mean we would have a SNP Government we could easily have a Scotish Labout Government !

 

Ah yes we have had them and they got dumped !

[Rubicon]

When you say our troops I assume you are talking about those persons who are in the British Army Forces, given Scotland doesn't have an army of its own. Every person who has been sent to war had the option of choice, and it seems a fairly simple choice to make if you have a brain in your head. Practice is you decide on a career path, you look at the various options, be it a cab driver, bus driver, office worker or the armed forces (for this example). You then say to yourself I don't really want to take the risk of being involved in a war, so which option should I drop. It isn't really difficult.

 

Once you have signed up for the armed forces you have committed yourself to participating in their areas of expertise, and if one of those is fighting you get on with it, and if that army happens to be the British Army then the people of Scotland have no right to veto your being sent, because you were born North of the border.

 

If you don't want to get involved in war, don't join the armed forces, get a job in an office and deal with less dangerous wars.

 

 

Scotland may have an army one day that has an opt out of war clause built in, although in all honesty it ain't much of an option to offer if you are counting on said army to defend you.

 

As for oil, I believe they reckon another 50 years at most. Be interesting how long it takes to rebuild all the required infrastructure to get it ashore, and sellable, if the present British companies/enterprises working the North Sea decide to decommission all their platforms, close down all the pipelines/existing infrastructure etc. and leave an independent Scotland to DIY, starting from scratch, while defending their territorial waters with a non existent Scottish Army/Navy and Air Force, or alternatively a handful of guys who might not really be up for the fight, if given the option to say no.

 

It has taken the Union hundreds of years to get to this stage, a stage where the Scots still don't think it is working; I sincerely hope those who think independence is the way to milk and honey ain't counting on Scotland being the "dugs baws" nation 5/10/15 years after independence, it ain't going to happen. It may well come in another 200 or 300 years, but by that time I suspect oil is something people of that generation will only know about from history books and museums, and we may well be just another territory of a bigger, much more dangerous "master".

 

The oil Companies would not decomission as they would be offerred a better deal by a Scottish Government irrespective of Party, particularly if Scotland adopted the Euro !

[Boris]

I think you will find that would be the first point to negotiate on the indepedance referendum with Englandshire.

 

Wrong. Negotiations would take place with the Westminster Government, which isn't the Government of England, but the Government of the UK, thus incorporating Wales, Northern Ireland and England. This simple fact seems to be comletely overlooked by some Nationalists which, imho, does the independence argument no favours at all as it merely seems to be anti-English rhetoric.

 

Secondly if you read any of the documents it seems quite clear that a second referendum - to join the Euro rather than keep Sterling -would hotly follow if there was a yes vote and a settlement agreed with the Toty Government.

 

Sterling as in UK sterling, or sterling as in a Scottish Sterling?

[SpikeDudley]

 

All I want is to see our flag in this book.

 

If Burkina Faso and Chad can be in it, why can't we?

[Boris]

 

In independant Scotland does not neccessarily mean we would have a SNP Government we could easily have a Scotish Labout Government !

 

Ah yes we have had them and they got dumped !

 

Perhaps the SNP would implode and factionalise? Splitting into left and right so the Tartan Tories could joing up with the "real" Tories post independence, similarly a Scottish Labour Party could evolve which stood for traditional "old labour" values and not the current Blairite lickspittle rump that we have at the moment.

 

To say that the Scottish Labour Govt got dumped is a wee bit disingenius - It was a coalition govt to start with and as it stands the SNP only have 1 seat more than Labour at Holyrood so it's not like there was a huge change in people voting labour - I think they only lost 4 seats overall.

 

Yes, the SNP gained 20 seats - but can they hang onto them?

[Rubicon]

Wrong. Negotiations would take place with the Westminster Government, which isn't the Government of England, but the Government of the UK, thus incorporating Wales, Northern Ireland and England. This simple fact seems to be comletely overlooked by some Nationalists which, imho, does the independence argument no favours at all as it merely seems to be anti-English rhetoric.

 

 

 

Sterling as in UK sterling, or sterling as in a Scottish Sterling?

 

I think you missed the tounge in cheek Englandshire comment as we are all aware that it is a U.K. Government that will negotiate any independance bill with Scotland, England, Wales or Northern Ireland !

 

I am not anti English or indeed anti any nationality I am Scots proud to be so and I am in favour of an independance referendum.

 

Scottish Sterling are you having a laugh ?

 

If it is "Sterling" why do so many institutions in England refuse to accept it ?

 

Why does the Royal Bank of Scotland in Gibraltar refure to take it ?

 

Joining the Euro would not only make ecenomic sense (for the U.K. now) but would obliterate the Sterling issue for ever.

 

The U.K. Government promised the people of the U.K. a referendum on the Euro, guess what ?

 

Nowhere to be seen !

 

Afraid of yet another yes vote !

[Rubicon]

Still at 55%

 

 

Getting higher

[Rubicon]

Perhaps the SNP would implode and factionalise? Splitting into left and right so the Tartan Tories could joing up with the "real" Tories post independence, similarly a Scottish Labour Party could evolve which stood for traditional "old labour" values and not the current Blairite lickspittle rump that we have at the moment.

 

To say that the Scottish Labour Govt got dumped is a wee bit disingenius - It was a coalition govt to start with and as it stands the SNP only have 1 seat more than Labour at Holyrood so it's not like there was a huge change in people voting labour - I think they only lost 4 seats overall.

 

Yes, the SNP gained 20 seats - but can they hang onto them?

 

Fair shout, I will give you that possibility but ast least in that scenario Scots would control our own destiny !

 

Dumped may be a bit strong and It will be interesting to see if the SNP were to hold onto the 20 gains or would that increase ?

 

I would be more worried as to how mamy more seats Labour will loose thanks to the labour (Scots) U.K. led Government's current problems.

 

I think a referendum would give us a big indication if we needed any indication !

[Boris]

I think you missed the tounge in cheek Englandshire comment as we are all aware that it is a U.K. Government that will negotiate any independance bill with Scotland, England, Wales or Northern Ireland !

 

I am not anti English or indeed anti any nationality I am Scots proud to be so and I am in favour of an independance referendum.

 

Scottish Sterling are you having a laugh ?

 

If it is "Sterling" why do so many institutions in England refuse to accept it ?

 

Why does the Royal Bank of Scotland in Gibraltar refure to take it ?

 

Joining the Euro would not only make ecenomic sense (for the U.K. now) but would obliterate the Sterling issue for ever.

 

The U.K. Government promised the people of the U.K. a referendum on the Euro, guess what ?

 

Nowhere to be seen !

 

Afraid of yet another yes vote !

 

So are you saying that we could have an independent Scotland, but it wouldn't be capable of having its own currency? That's confidence boosting!

 

Fair shout, I will give you that possibility but ast least in that scenario Scots would control our own destiny !

 

Dumped may be a bit strong and It will be interesting to see if the SNP were to hold onto the 20 gains or would that increase ?

 

I would be more worried as to how mamy more seats Labour will loose thanks to the labour (Scots) U.K. led Government's current problems.

 

I think a referendum would give us a big indication if we needed any indication !

 

The Scottish electorate already controls its own destiny. The referendum for independence is there at least every 5 years. Voters, however, are slightly more subtle than they are given credit for by the increasingly patronising political class. Someone can vote SNP at Holyrood but not actually want independence so does not vote for the SNP at a Westminster election.

[Rubicon]

So are you saying that we could have an independent Scotland, but it wouldn't be capable of having its own currency? That's confidence boosting!

 

Where did I say that ?

 

 

 

The Scottish electorate already controls its own destiny. The referendum for independence is there at least every 5 years. Voters, however, are slightly more subtle than they are given credit for by the increasingly patronising political class. Someone can vote SNP at Holyrood but not actually want independence so does not vote for the SNP at a Westminster election.

 

If we were independent we would need our own currency the Pound or, more obvioulsly, the Scottish Euro !

 

 

 

The Scottish Electorate obviously does not control its own destiny and there is no referendum every five years.

 

What we have is a U.K. General Election where it matters not a hoot whom anyone in Scotland votes for as the majority of the U.K. population live in England and they have the majority of the seats and therefore they dicide what U.K. Government prevails.

 

I am quite sure many people voted SNP last time without really wanting them as a Governent and there is the distinct chance it will happen again next year to possibly a even greater extent.

 

All you "we do net need a referendum" brigade are fightened of the same thing - the majority of Scots wanting their own government irrespective of the party !

 

If you are so confident, as Bendy said Bring it On! we will lose amyway

 

Percentage of yes votes on this poll still rising !

[rossthejambo]

Hows does any party prove they could run a country until they are given the chance ?

 

It is like asking Mad Vlad to prove he could run this team before he was "allowed to buy it" !

 

Look at what the Scottish Government (a minority government) has achieved financially for the benefit of most, particularly in your age group.

 

They have two major financial failings so far IMO

 

1st the trams which they did not want but other parties forced on them

2nd No abolition of the unfair Council Tax in favour of local income tax

 

In independant Scotland does not neccessarily mean we would have a SNP Government we could easily have a Scotish Labout Government !

 

Ah yes we have had them and they got dumped !

 

The SNP are running the country to an extent just now and IMO aren't doing a good job.

 

What about the SNP's pledge to wipe all student debt that was thrown out by them? That's a big financial failing IMO.

[Rubicon]

The SNP are running the country to an extent just now and IMO aren't doing a good job.

 

What about the SNP's pledge to wipe all student debt that was thrown out by them? That's a big financial failing IMO.

 

That may be your opinion but not shared by everyone !

 

I agree that is a failing but you have to remember who controls the purse strings of the income that comes to Scotland, sadly it is the U.K Government.

 

If you are old enough to remember back to 1997 when a Scot - educated at a Private School - said there are only three important things Education, Education and .....

 

And then that party made students pay for their education and still do.

 

Is there any thing that the Scottish Government has done that you approve of ?

[rossthejambo]

That may be your opinion but not shared by everyone !

 

I agree that is a failing but you have to remember who controls the purse strings of the income that comes to Scotland, sadly it is the U.K Government.

 

If you are old enough to remember back to 1997 when a Scot - educated at a Private School - said there are only three important things Education, Education and .....

 

And then that party made students pay for their education and still do.

 

Is there any thing that the Scottish Government has done that you approve of ?

 

I didn't say it was shared by everyone..thats why i said In my opinion.

 

The current Scottish Government, no. Previous Scottish Governments, probably, but I can't think of anything off the top of my head.

[Rubicon]

I didn't say it was shared by everyone..thats why i said In my opinion.

 

The current Scottish Government, no. Previous Scottish Governments, probably, but I can't think of anything off the top of my head.

 

Good we can agree on something then !

 

No takers on the precious Labour Government making you all pay for the education they promised would be free ?

[Boris]

If we were independent we would need our own currency the Pound or, more obvioulsly, the Scottish Euro !

 

I mentioned Scottish Sterling (as opposed to the current UK sterling) as another option of currency i.e. Scottish pound, stay using UK currency or opt for the Euro. Obviously staying with a UK currency would not be viable, but it is still an option...

 

I think we may have misunderstood each other there.

 

 

The Scottish Electorate obviously does not control its own destiny and there is no referendum every five years.

 

What we have is a U.K. General Election where it matters not a hoot whom anyone in Scotland votes for as the majority of the U.K. population live in England and they have the majority of the seats and therefore they dicide what U.K. Government prevails.

 

I am quite sure many people voted SNP last time without really wanting them as a Governent and there is the distinct chance it will happen again next year to possibly a even greater extent.

 

All you "we do net need a referendum" brigade are fightened of the same thing - the majority of Scots wanting their own government irrespective of the party !

 

If you are so confident, as Bendy said Bring it On! we will lose amyway

 

Percentage of yes votes on this poll still rising !

 

You are actually wrong on that. Prior to Holyrood, the SNP's way to gain independence was to win a majority of the Scottish seats at a Westminster election then go to the UN citing this electoral victory as evidence of the Scottish electorate wanting independence.

 

I'm not scared of Scotland gaining independence, far from it, however I am not sure why there is actually need for a plebiscite when there is already a process in place with which the electorate can make that decision. My thinking is that perhaps it is Mr Salmond who is a wee bit frightened that should he get a referendum he would be roundly thrashed.

 

Also, I wouldn't take the results of a poll on JKB too seriously....

 

Good we can agree on something then !

 

No takers on the precious Labour Government making you all pay for the education they promised would be free ?

 

Scottish students have never paid tuition fees iirc. That seems kinda free to me...

[billco98]

The UK government is still trying to act as an Imperial colonial superpower.

 

That is why the UK is fecked.

 

Ireland seems to have done just fine since they broke away. Same with Australia, New Zealand, Canada, USA and India.

 

Yes, Rhodesia, Palestine and a few others have turned out to be sheeiteholes after breaking away from London......but they are the exceptions.

 

Palestine was abandoned by the British to allow the Zionist immigrants a free hand in stealing Palestinian land and consigning the people to abject misery for the past 60 years and for the foreseeable future.

 

Get your facts right before hitting your keyboard.

[Ben Dover]

I think you will find that would be the first point to negotiate on the indepedance referendum with Englandshire.

 

Secondly if you read any of the documents it seems quite clear that a second referendum - to join the Euro rather than keep Sterling -would hotly follow if there was a yes vote and a settlement agreed with the Toty Government.

 

That's where my vote would be going

[Drew Busby !]

The poll is just a bit of fun. But there was a poll in the Scotsman last year which also asked people if they'd be more or less inclined to vote for independence if the Tories were re-elected at Westminster. Not surprisingly the independence vote got almost a 25% boost.

 

So timing is everything - but I'd be pleasantly surprised to see more than half of Scots voting yes. More likely a figure of more-or-less 40% I'd guess. I don't know when the next referendum would be after that (assuming that this one even happens..), but there would certainly be one in the next decade I'd think. If the Tories landed a 2nd term in 2015 then any time after that might be the one that tips the balance...

[billco98]

A big YES on this one for me

 

and when Labour get ****ed at next election down south and Tories are

 

running the country with a token 1 or 2 seats up here

 

bet they'll be a few wished that they also said YES

 

see below:10900:

 

Never a truer word my friend! Folk on this board are one of three things - too young to remember, have very short memories or are blinkered Tories.

 

As far as I am concerned the SNP represent not only the only Social Democratic option left for me to vote for, but more importantly our route out of the Union.

 

Labour had a great opportunity to correct the wrongs of 18 years of Tory mis-rule in the UK but lacked the bottle. The Blairites grabbed the helm when John Smith died and drove the party to the right to form a quasi-conservative party in order to appeal to Middle England.

 

Pandering to the rich and the City and maintaining the Thatherite economic model, which has of course crumbled around their ears, was a serious blunder. Following the most right wing government in US history into an illegal war in Iraq was also a catastrophic blunder.

 

Cameron, I would not trust for one nano second - a Mark II Blair if ever I saw one.

 

I wish to goodness the majority of Scots would waken up their ideas. Scotland has been shafted since WWII by successive governments of either colour, but in particular by Thatcher's.

 

The vast bulk of oil in the North Sea is in Scottish waters. It is therefore in geo-political terms a Scottish resource. The revenues of thirty years of exploitation of that resource have largely been wasted by Westminster, and Scotland has received the fag end of what was left. Those of the generation who have had the vote in Scotland over that period have aquiesced in the biggest fraud in our histroy. Generations to come will be unforgiving especially when they look enviously acroos the North Sea to Norway to see how they have benefited from their share of the oil.

 

We were told by Westminster in the Seventies and Eighties that North Sea oil would virtually be finished before the end of the 20th century. That of course was a complete misrepresentation of the facts and the majority were sucker enough to believe them. There is as much oil left as has already been extracted and its value is increasing by the year.

 

We should grab the opportunity to stand on our own feet and be proud of that.

 

We are dwarfed by a dominant neighbour whose problems are mega. At the hands of a Tory (English Nationalist) Government at Westminster Scotland will be shafted. They have no large constituency in Scotland therefore no interest in governing us properly. Labour has only a self serving interest in the Scotland for provide the MP's who give them their majority over the Tories at Westminster.

 

If Trident is scrapped and Cameron carries out his threat to close our naval yards on the Clyde we definitely have nothing to lose and everything to gain by going our own way.

 

Think about it - it's much more than just about Wee Eck - look at the big picture.

[Drew Busby !]

Never a truer word my friend! Folk on this board are one of three things - too young to remember, have very short memories or are blinkered Tories.

 

As far as I am concerned the SNP represent not only the only Social Democratic option left for me to vote for, but more importantly our route out of the Union.

 

Labour had a great opportunity to correct the wrongs of 18 years of Tory mis-rule in the UK but lacked the bottle. The Blairites grabbed the helm when John Smith died and drove the party to the right to form a quasi-conservative party in order to appeal to Middle England.

 

Pandering to the rich and the City and maintaining the Thatherite economic model, which has of course crumbled around their ears, was a serious blunder. Following the most right wing government in US history into an illegal war in Iraq was also a catastrophic blunder.

 

Cameron, I would not trust for one nano second - a Mark II Blair if ever I saw one.

 

I wish to goodness the majority of Scots would waken up their ideas. Scotland has been shafted since WWII by successive governments of either colour, but in particular by Thatcher's.

 

The vast bulk of oil in the North Sea is in Scottish waters. It is therefore in geo-political terms a Scottish resource. The revenues of thirty years of exploitation of that resource have largely been wasted by Westminster, and Scotland has received the fag end of what was left. Those of the generation who have had the vote in Scotland over that period have aquiesced in the biggest fraud in our histroy. Generations to come will be unforgiving especially when they look enviously acroos the North Sea to Norway to see how they have benefited from their share of the oil.

 

We were told by Westminster in the Seventies and Eighties that North Sea oil would virtually be finished before the end of the 20th century. That of course was a complete misrepresentation of the facts and the majority were sucker enough to believe them. There is as much oil left as has already been extracted and its value is increasing by the year.

 

We should grab the opportunity to stand on our own feet and be proud of that.

 

We are dwarfed by a dominant neighbour whose problems are mega. At the hands of a Tory (English Nationalist) Government at Westminster Scotland will be shafted. They have no large constituency in Scotland therefore no interest in governing us properly. Labour has only a self serving interest in the Scotland for provide the MP's who give them their majority over the Tories at Westminster.

 

If Trident is scrapped and Cameron carries out his threat to close our naval yards on the Clyde we definitely have nothing to lose and everything to gain by going our own way.

 

Think about it - it's much more than just about Wee Eck - look at the big picture.

 

I'm in broad agreement with what you're saying there billco98

And I would only restate (as you hint at I think...) that a vote for independence is NOT a vote for Eck as President, or the SNP as the post-independence governing party. I'd imagine for many, that their preferred post-independence option would be a reborn reconstituted and genuinely radical Independent Scottish Labour party. That would be my hope. Others will have their own views. The SNP is simply the means to that end.

 

Edit: I seriously doubt that post-independence, Scotland would ever elect an indigenous Conservative or right-of-centre party. Given Camerons virtually imminent elevation to UK Prime Minister, and possibly 10 years or more of UK Conservative govt, thats incentive enough for independence for many I'd think.

[Hickups]

I'd be for independence.

On two conditions.

We keep the British amred forces and we keep the monarchy.

 

I'm not a nat, I'm not an SNP supporter either but did vote for them in the last Scottish elections.

 

I'd rather have Independence because it would be a better democracy for me as a Scottish citizen.

 

I don't really care what flag is flying, politics, religion or past history, I just want a better democracy, a government thats based where I'm from and one that cares passionately about doing the right thing for the people it governs.

[mac]

So it's really two votes then:

 

1. Independence Yes/No

 

if Yes, then

 

2. Decide which party is least likely to make a complete fuster-cluck of the opportunity.

 

I would like to see us stand up for ourselves.

[Sherlock]

...Scottish Sterling are you having a laugh ?

 

If it is "Sterling" why do so many institutions in England refuse to accept it ?

 

Why does the Royal Bank of Scotland in Gibraltar refure to take it?...

 

Many institutions probably refuse to accept Scottish bank notes because they are not legal tender.

 

Not even in Scotland.

[pablo]

Let's just have the referendum and we can put this to bed ( for another generation at least ).

[The Vulture]

If independence occurred I'm sure the main political parties would rebrand themselves. I suppose the SNP would as a party then close down as their job of gaining an independent Scotland would have been achieved. For SNP members, well those SNP members who favour an independent Scotland but want to stay part of the monarchy but not in the EU could join the rebranded Conservative party, while the anti-Monarchists may join the Labour party for example. All a bit of a stab in the dark and hypothetical at this stage but could happen one day.

[billco98]

I don't think the monarchy question should be considered at this stage. Whilst I lean towards a republic I think we should maintain the monarchy in the short term.

[Drew Busby !]

I'd be for independence.

On two conditions.

We keep the British amred forces and we keep the monarchy.

 

I'm not a nat, I'm not an SNP supporter either but did vote for them in the last Scottish elections.

 

I'd rather have Independence because it would be a better democracy for me as a Scottish citizen.

I don't really care what flag is flying, politics, religion or past history, I just want a better democracy, a government thats based where I'm from and one that cares passionately about doing the right thing for the people it governs.

 

Well said !

[Professor.Arturo]

One has to wonder why Labour and Conservative are frightened to have a public referendum? Is it purely to vote against the SNP no matter what, or are they afraid of the outcome?

 

The argument that if we all wanted independance we'd all have voted SNP does not hold, some LibLabCon voters might want independance but prefer LibLabCon policies on other matters.

 

I think Westminster are crappin it at the thought of a referendum.

[Cabbie754]

The poll is just a bit of fun. But there was a poll in the Scotsman last year which also asked people if they'd be more or less inclined to vote for independence if the Tories were re-elected at Westminster. Not surprisingly the independence vote got almost a 25% boost.

 

So timing is everything - but I'd be pleasantly surprised to see more than half of Scots voting yes. More likely a figure of more-or-less 40% I'd guess. I don't know when the next referendum would be after that (assuming that this one even happens..), but there would certainly be one in the next decade I'd think. If the Tories landed a 2nd term in 2015 then any time after that might be the one that tips the balance...

 

Well why are the unionist parties frightened of holding a referendum if as you claim only 25% -40% would vote yes?

 

This poll may be a bit of fun but it's now at 57% voting to have Scotland Idependent.

[Cabbie754]

Perhaps the SNP would implode and factionalise? Splitting into left and right so the Tartan Tories could joing up with the "real" Tories post independence, similarly a Scottish Labour Party could evolve which stood for traditional "old labour" values and not the current Blairite lickspittle rump that we have at the moment.

 

To say that the Scottish Labour Govt got dumped is a wee bit disingenius - It was a coalition govt to start with and as it stands the SNP only have 1 seat more than Labour at Holyrood so it's not like there was a huge change in people voting labour - I think they only lost 4 seats overall.

 

Yes, the SNP gained 20 seats - but can they hang onto them?

 

What you seem to forget is that it wasn't just Holyrood that there was a change of administration. Fife, East Lothian, West Lothian and Edinburgh, to name some nearby local councils where Labour lost control. I think there are only two councils where Labour held onto power, Midlothian and Glasgow. The only other places they kept their hand in was joining in coalition with the Tories, yes I'll repeat that the feckin Tories to keep the SNP out. There was massive changes all over Scotland and Labour will find it very difficult to get back in control of local athorities mainly due to the PR voting system for local elections.

 

The SNP have more councillors than any other party and the only party to have representation in every single council (except Orkney & Shetland which are all independent)

 

Don't under estimate the change happening in Scotland

[Drew Busby !]

Well why are the unionist parties frightened of holding a referendum if as you claim only 25% -40% would vote yes?

 

This poll may be a bit of fun but it's now at 57% voting to have Scotland Idependent.

 

I thin because their reasoning would be...

 

No referendum held = no independence

Hold a referendum = an unknowable but definite percentage chance of independence

 

My gut feeling on a likely 40% figure would be based on the massive amount of FUD that the combined unionist opposition would generate. You'd have scare tactics and black propaganda 24x7 from the unionist parties, and the TV and print media. There'd be a firestorm of black propaganda. The resources that would be thrown at getting a No vote would dwarve that of the Yes campaign.

 

That said I think a UK-Tory win is an essential pre-requisite for an eventual Yes vote in any referendum, and that at least looks to be very much on the cards.

[Boris]

What you seem to forget is that it wasn't just Holyrood that there was a change of administration. Fife, East Lothian, West Lothian and Edinburgh, to name some nearby local councils where Labour lost control. I think there are only two councils where Labour held onto power, Midlothian and Glasgow. The only other places they kept their hand in was joining in coalition with the Tories, yes I'll repeat that the feckin Tories to keep the SNP out. There was massive changes all over Scotland and Labour will find it very difficult to get back in control of local athorities mainly due to the PR voting system for local elections.

 

You sort of answer your own question there.

 

Arguably it was PR that led to the end of Labour domination at Council level (quite rightly).

[boabyarsebiscuit]

Nationalism sucks.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

I thin because their reasoning would be...

 

No referendum held = no independence

Hold a referendum = an unknowable but definite percentage chance of independence

 

My gut feeling on a likely 40% figure would be based on the massive amount of FUD that the combined unionist opposition would generate. You'd have scare tactics and black propaganda 24x7 from the unionist parties, and the TV and print media. There'd be a firestorm of black propaganda. The resources that would be thrown at getting a No vote would dwarve that of the Yes campaign.

 

That said I think a UK-Tory win is an essential pre-requisite for an eventual Yes vote in any referendum, and that at least looks to be very much on the cards.

 

I honestly think the Tories should pass a border poll referendum for all 4 countries in the UK the minute they get into office, i.e. Do you want England/Scotland/Wales/Northern Ireland to remain as part of the United Kingdom (there is one due in NI soon under the Good Friday Agreement anyway - can't remember exactly when) - there is precedent for this (NI border poll in 1976) and it would stop all the whinging on all sides.

 

But they won't.

[davemclaren]

Nationalism sucks.

 

Ah, an internationalist.

[Drew Busby !]

Decent sized poll with an interesting result thus far. I'd contend again that its a fair reflection of the general Kickback demographic - and in conjunction with the "Kickback age" poll in which 95% of respondents were between 16 and 55 ... lends some credence to the young and middle aged being generally more open to the idea of independence.

[leginten]

One has to wonder why Labour and Conservative are frightened to have a public referendum?

 

A year and a bit ago the gorgeous Wendy Alexander was *****ering away to anyone who would listen about how terrible it was that the Holyrood government hadn't fixed a date for a referendum. Now Labour is apparently opposed to a referendum. Is there any reason - apart from bawbag politics - for this rather abrupt change of direction?

[leginten]

That was c-h-u-n-t-e-r-i-n-g, by the way.

[Creepy Lurker]

Personally i'm going to vote no, not because I'm a raving Unionist but because I dont feel all that strongly about the issue either way. Seems that by default that makes me in favour of the union but in all honesty doubt that I'd even vote in a referendum!

[blairdin]

The UK Government has made ******-up after ******-up for as long as I can remember.

 

Tories closed Ravenscraig, as good as closed Rosyth and used us as a testing ground for their Poll Tax. Cheers.

 

Labour have led us into the Vietnam of our generation, but hey, at least there's no more boom and bust, right...oh, wait, hang on...

 

I voted SNP at the last Hollyrood elections and if there was another Hollyrood election tomorrow I would do so again. For a minority government I think they have done as well as could be expected. And from where I'm standing, there's no credible alternative.

 

Independence - I'm undecided. So for that reason, I'm all for a referendum. Let's debate it properly and let this generation speak. Then at least the debate can be parked for another 20 to 30 years and the Hollyrood government can get on with running Scotland, whatever constitutional form we end up with.

[Drew Busby !]

Bump. For the benefit of Gary Busey's Teeth.

 

Only on the internet does the sentence above make sense !