4marsbars Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 A few discussions have touched on all the ifs and ands and buts of what happens if Rangers win the Cup. If Rangers don't win the Cup the Cup winners go into the Europa League as top seeds from Scotland. If Rangers don't win it, we all know that the Cup runners-up get into the Europa League, but do they get seeded ahead of the third and fourth placed teams in the league? It makes a crucial difference because if we were to finish fourth, we would have the lowest seeding, and that's just like the old Intertoto, season starts too early, etc. Which brings me to the only question that this thread is about:- What, and where, is the official word on this? I have searched the SPL and SFA websites and can find nothing about this simple point. Maybe I am just looking in the wrong places, but it seems to be another example of the sport in Scotland's pathetic attempts to communicate with its fanbase. Can anyone provide a link to an official statement about how things work? Please do not post links to newspaper articles, BBC, or other sports web sites. It's a really simple piece of information. It must exist. But I cannot find it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midloth_Iain Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 Without having read the full site, possibly the best place for you to look would be here (not sure if the Europa Cup details/format has been updated yet). http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/ Sorry if this counts as an unwanted link but it has always been the most knowledgeable site for CL/Uefa tournaments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midloth_Iain Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 From said site Qualifying for the UEFA Europa League consists of four rounds. The domestic cup winners from the associations ranked 52 and 53 in the UEFA coefficient ranking, plus the domestic league runners-up from the associations ranked 35 to 51 (except Liechtenstein), the third-placed side from the associations ranked 22 to 51 (except Liechtenstein) and the three UEFA Fair Play winners enter the competition in the first qualifying round, which consists of two legs played on a home-and-away basis. ? The winners of those 25 ties are joined in the second qualifying round by the domestic cup winners from the associations ranked 28 to 51 in the UEFA coefficient, the runners-up from the associations ranked 19 to 34, the third- placed sides from the associations ranked 16 to 21, the fourth-placed sides from the associations ranked 10 to 15 and the fifth-placed sides from the associations ranked 7 to 9. These ties are also played over two legs, home and away. ? The victorious sides from those 40 ties progress to the third qualifying round, which also includes the domestic cup winners from the associations ranked 16 to 27, the domestic league runners-up from the associations ranked 16 to 18, the third-placed league side from the associations ranked 10 to 15, the fourth- placed side from the associations ranked 7 to 9, the fifth-placed side from the association ranked 4 to 6 and the sixth-placed side from the associations ranked 1 to 3. Again, these two legs are played home and away. ? The winners of these 35 ties are joined in the play-off round by the 15 losing teams from the UEFA Champions League third qualifying round. Also entering the competition at this stage are the domestic cup winners from the associations ranked 1 to 15, the third-placed league sides from the associations ranked 7 to 9, the fourth-placed team from the associations ranked 4 to 6 and the fifth- placed teams from the associations ranked 1 to 3. ? The 37 victorious sides from these two legs qualify for the UEFA Europa League group stage, which also includes the ten losing sides from the UEFA Champions League play-off round and the UEFA Europa League holders. ? The losing finalist for the domestic cup competition will still be entitled to be entered for the UEFA Europa League should the domestic cup winners qualify for the UEFA Champions League. ? The UEFA Europa League Round of 32 includes the top two teams from each of the 12 groups, plus the eight teams who finish in third position in their UEFA Champions League group. The winners of these 16 ties progress to the Round of 16, then the quarter-finals and subsequently the semi-finals. The bit highlighted in blue relate to Scottish teams, as we are currently ranked 10th in co-efficients (I think) So having read that, I can conclude that I still dont have a clue, sorry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flimsy Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 It is difficult to find official confirmation but here are the 2008/09 UEFA regulations. 1.04 If the winner of the domestic cup qualifies for the UEFA Champions League,the domestic cup runner-up may qualify for the UEFA Cup. Should boththese clubs qualify for the UEFA Champions League, the associationconcerned may enter in the UEFA Cup the club which finishes the top 2domestic league championship immediately below the other club or clubsqualifying for the UEFA Cup. In both cases, the access stage initiallyreserved for the domestic cup winner is allocated to the club which finishesthe domestic league championship in the highest position out of all the clubswhich qualify for the UEFA Cup from the association concerned Basically, it has been the case ever since the Cup Winners Cup was scrubbed that cup winners take precedence over league position and league position takes precedence over cup runners-up. This has been shown in the last few seasons in Scotland where the 3rd placed team has started in a later round to the cup runners-up. I don't know where to find official confirmation that UEFA are maintaining this for 2009-2013 although Bet Kassies (co-efficient expert) believes something more definitive will be issued by UEFA this month. UEFA are terrible at communicating information like this and there is an enormous amount of misinformation in the media. Always refer to the website linked in the previous post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dipped Flake Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 Was going to post the rules again, for the millionth time but I give up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4marsbars Posted March 19, 2009 Author Share Posted March 19, 2009 From said site The bit highlighted in blue relate to Scottish teams, as we are currently ranked 10th in co-efficients (I think) So having read that, I can conclude that I still dont have a clue, sorry Thanks for that; the fact that it doesn't give an entry-point for cup runners-up might mean that they take the same entry point as they would if they were cup winners, or it might not. Anyone else got anything else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo in Yorkshire Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 The attached link settles the argument Country number 45 Kazakhstan is the one to look at - the cup runners up (coded LC) will enter the Europa cup at the 1st qualifying stage whereas the highest placed team in the league enters at the 2nd qualifying stage This means that if Rangers win the Scottish Cup the runners up will enter the Europa cup before the teams in 3rd and 4th place in the league If Rangers don't win the cup the winners enter at a later stage than the 3rd and 4th placed teams Example Rangers win the cup, Falkirk are runners up and Hearts are 3rd in the league Falkirk enter the Europa cup in Q2 and we enter in Q4 which would mean we need to win one tie to get into the group stage http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/qual2009.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartsfc_fan Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 The attached link settles the argument Country number 45 Kazakhstan is the one to look at - the cup runners up (coded LC) will enter the Europa cup at the 1st qualifying stage whereas the highest placed team in the league enters at the 2nd qualifying stage This means that if Rangers win the Scottish Cup the runners up will enter the Europa cup before the teams in 3rd and 4th place in the league If Rangers don't win the cup the winners enter at a later stage than the 3rd and 4th placed teams Example Rangers win the cup, Falkirk are runners up and Hearts are 3rd in the league Falkirk enter the Europa cup in Q2 and we enter in Q4 which would mean we need to win one tie to get into the group stage http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/qual2009.html Good. we bloody better finish 3rd then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 Where does Bert Kassiesa get his information for his excellent website? ie does he link to any original source documents? Or does he just tell UEFA what's what! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3inaBednar Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 You all seem to be assuming rankers will qualify for the champs league, if they have a qualifier?? they could get dunted straight into the europa cup no??......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_Jersey_HMFC Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 This has probably already been discussed. I read a while ago that they were scrapping the rule that allowed the runner up of the cup to have a uefa/europa place IF the winner already had a european place. This was because we had three 1st division representatives in the last 3 years in Queen of South, Dunfermline and Gretna, and their poor performances were damaging the co-efficient or whatever it is these days. Im not sure whether this had already happened or has yet to come into force. If it has, then Rangers winning the cup(assuming they finish 2nd (or 1st)) would mean 4th place would get the extra europa place..otherwise if pars,falkirk or buds won the cup they would get it But if it hasnt changed yet, then even if rangers did win the cup and finished 1st/2nd, pars/falkirk as runner up would get the europa place and only 3rd in league would get one too. Can any clear this up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 This has probably already been discussed. Correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo in Yorkshire Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 As most people know Scotland get 5 places in Europe next season - 2 Champions league and 3 Europa cup If Celtic win the league they go into the group stages of the CL If Rangers are 2nd in the league they qualify for the CL - how they perform does not affect the 3 Europa cup places If they lose in their 1st qualifying round they get booted out of European football (just like this season!) If they lose their 2nd qualifying game they join the Europa cup at the 4th qualifying round (same as Hearts if we finish 3rd) If they win their 2nd qualifying game they are in the group stages of the CL The Bert Kassies site is by far the best one to get the correct information Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flimsy Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 As most people know Scotland get 5 places in Europe next season - 2 Champions league and 3 Europa cup If Celtic win the league they go into the group stages of the CL If Rangers are 2nd in the league they qualify for the CL - how they perform does not affect the 3 Europa cup places If they lose in their 1st qualifying round they get booted out of European football (just like this season!) If they lose their 2nd qualifying game they join the Europa cup at the 4th qualifying round (same as Hearts if we finish 3rd) If they win their 2nd qualifying game they are in the group stages of the CL The Bert Kassies site is by far the best one to get the correct information You are right that Bert Kassies site is the place to go but you are wrong that Rangers would go out of Europe if they lose their first qualifying game, they now have a Europa Cup parachute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flimsy Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 This has probably already been discussed. I read a while ago that they were scrapping the rule that allowed the runner up of the cup to have a uefa/europa place IF the winner already had a european place. This was because we had three 1st division representatives in the last 3 years in Queen of South, Dunfermline and Gretna, and their poor performances were damaging the co-efficient or whatever it is these days. Im not sure whether this had already happened or has yet to come into force. If it has, then Rangers winning the cup(assuming they finish 2nd (or 1st)) would mean 4th place would get the extra europa place..otherwise if pars,falkirk or buds won the cup they would get it But if it hasnt changed yet, then even if rangers did win the cup and finished 1st/2nd, pars/falkirk as runner up would get the europa place and only 3rd in league would get one too. Can any clear this up? Go to Bert Kassies website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo in Yorkshire Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 Apologies to Rangers fans!! In my example I said they get booted out out of Europe if they lose their 1st qualifying game ..... they don't as they would enter Q4 of the Europa cup (same as us if we finish 3rd) If they lose their 2nd qualifying game they enter the group stage of the Europa cup The new rules mean they cannot go out of Europe after one game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo66 Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 Apologies to Rangers fans!! In my example I said they get booted out out of Europe if they lose their 1st qualifying game ..... they don't as they would enter Q4 of the Europa cup (same as us if we finish 3rd) If they lose their 2nd qualifying game they enter the group stage of the Europa cup The new rules mean they cannot go out of Europe after one game A rule designed to ensure that the richest clubs get richer and richer. Completely unfair and one of the many reasons why football is destroying itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossthejambo Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 You all seem to be assuming rankers will qualify for the champs league, if they have a qualifier?? they could get dunted straight into the europa cup no??......... no.....not unless us or dundee utd finish above them in the league Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo in Yorkshire Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 The co-efficients make it even easier for the bigger clubs to prosper Once a team is in any given round of the CL or Europa cup (up to the group stage) the seedings are based on co-efficients If Rangers are 2nd in the SPL and get knocked out in their first CL game they would be seeded in the Europa cup Q4 - its likely that the 3rd in the SPL would not be seeded at this stage of the competition giving Rangers a far better chance of reaching the group stage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartsfc_fan Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 The co-efficients make it even easier for the bigger clubs to prosper Once a team is in any given round of the CL or Europa cup (up to the group stage) the seedings are based on co-efficients If Rangers are 2nd in the SPL and get knocked out in their first CL game they would be seeded in the Europa cup Q4 - its likely that the 3rd in the SPL would not be seeded at this stage of the competition giving Rangers a far better chance of reaching the group stage What would happen if Rangers get into the CL. Would the SPL's 3rd place team be seeded then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo in Yorkshire Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 Heartsfc_fan - The co-efficient used is based on club performance - Rangers progressing in the CL would only remove one club with a high co-efficent for the draw for Q4 in the Europa Cup As I understand there will be 37 games in Q4 of the Europa cup - obviously 37 are seeded so the 3rd placed team in the SPL would need to have a co-efficent high enough to be seeded This would depend upon which 35 teams come through Q3 of the Europa cup, which 15 teams come down from the CL and which 24 teams qualify automatically for Q4 of the Europa cup It will be a while before we know all of this but I reckon the 3rd team in the SPL may not have a co-efficient high enough to be in the top 37 seeds in Q4 of the Europa cup If Rangers do not win the cup the above would apply to the cup winners who would be in Q4 of the Europa Cup and not 3rd in the SPL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4marsbars Posted March 19, 2009 Author Share Posted March 19, 2009 Having posed the question, I've been off-line today so just saying a big thanks for the detailed posts above which tend to suggest that third place in the league is worth fighting for, and that, sadly, for the first time in my life I want Rangers to win something. I do think that it is ridiculous that there is nothing (as far as I can see) on the SPL or SFA website clarifying this. For those who were happy to point out that we've discussed this before, thanks for the info. If you think it is a waste of time to get into this again, why bother spending any energy posting such messages? An alternative strategy is just to ignore the thread and try another one. The fact is, as I said above, this is the most important footballing issue facing the club from now till the end of the season, and the Aberdeen result last night made it a relevant question for today. Obviously, nobody should post anything on Kickback that has ever been said before. Things that we have only ever discussed just the once include:- - which team you hate the most - whether you hate Hibs more than the Old Firm - whether Pressley is a hero or a weasel - why was Burley sacked - why Burley was sacked - whether Hearts fans should have a natural preference for one half of the Old Firm - flag debates - Hullo, hullo - The ticket office - The poor state of refereeing - The absurdities of political correctness - If you could have one Hearts player from the past who would it be - What makes a "real" fan - Would you take Rudi back - Was Craig Levein really sick - Gordon Smith, Andy Walker and Pat Nevin debates - John Colquhon is worth listening to; maybe also Graham Spiers - Our deluded city neighbours Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 Having posed the question, I've been off-line today so just saying a big thanks for the detailed posts above which tend to suggest that third place in the league is worth fighting for, and that, sadly, for the first time in my life I want Rangers to win something. I do think that it is ridiculous that there is nothing (as far as I can see) on the SPL or SFA website clarifying this. For those who were happy to point out that we've discussed this before, thanks for the info. If you think it is a waste of time to get into this again, why bother spending any energy posting such messages? An alternative strategy is just to ignore the thread and try another one. The fact is, as I said above, this is the most important footballing issue facing the club from now till the end of the season, and the Aberdeen result last night made it a relevant question for today. Obviously, nobody should post anything on Kickback that has ever been said before. Things that we have only ever discussed just the once include:- - which team you hate the most - whether you hate Hibs more than the Old Firm - whether Pressley is a hero or a weasel - why was Burley sacked - why Burley was sacked - whether Hearts fans should have a natural preference for one half of the Old Firm - flag debates - Hullo, hullo - The ticket office - The poor state of refereeing - The absurdities of political correctness - If you could have one Hearts player from the past who would it be - What makes a "real" fan - Would you take Rudi back - Was Craig Levein really sick - Gordon Smith, Andy Walker and Pat Nevin debates - John Colquhon is worth listening to; maybe also Graham Spiers - Our deluded city neighbours I take your point 4marsbars - but in this case, I've lost count of how many threads there have been setting out Bert Kassies' info in recent weeks and months. I'm not referring to you here - but it is incredibly irritating when yet another poster pops up with "but I thought the runners-up rule had been scrapped?" There'll be another one in the next few days, I guarantee it. I agree that it's ridiculous that you can't find anything on the UEFA or SFA websites. Until it popped up on Kassies' site late last year, it was doing my nut in: Wikpedia had completely wrong information, and I couldn't find the accurate stuff anywhere. He is the oracle though - so once he explained things (with what appear to be UEFA documents/news releases), that settled it for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4marsbars Posted March 20, 2009 Author Share Posted March 20, 2009 I take your point 4marsbars - but in this case, I've lost count of how many threads there have been setting out Bert Kassies' info in recent weeks and months. I'm not referring to you here - but it is incredibly irritating when yet another poster pops up with "but I thought the runners-up rule had been scrapped?" There'll be another one in the next few days, I guarantee it. I agree that it's ridiculous that you can't find anything on the UEFA or SFA websites. Until it popped up on Kassies' site late last year, it was doing my nut in: Wikpedia had completely wrong information, and I couldn't find the accurate stuff anywhere. He is the oracle though - so once he explained things (with what appear to be UEFA documents/news releases), that settled it for me. Fair comment, Shaun, but my point was not about the "runners-up" rule, which we knew was still there. It was about the seeding that would apply should the runners-up qualify, as is increasingly likely, though Rangers are neither yet Champions League qualifiers nor Cup Winners. My other point was the lack of any official annoucement of what is a very simple issue with a straightforward answer. The fact that we rely on sites such as Kassie's (excellent though it is) rather than the SFA (or UEFA) would tend to confirm my finding, that there is nothing about this issue in the one place in Scotland that should have it. I bet if Stephen Pressley still played for us the SFA wouldn't dare treat us in that manner. For some reason this makes me hate Rangers more than Celtic. Tin helmet (with nice Union Flag design) on. Hibs, are they the flair team any more or will player power push out Mixu? Would you still take Riordan in the event that Velicka is unaffordable? Jury's still out on Csaba and Obua. Who's the Berra captain? I hope St Johnstone get promoted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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