Trams - Labour party

[Boris]

Of course more car, bus and van etc. journeys are the main factor behind increases in traffic congestion. Just people going about their daily lives. What have parking violations or speeders got to do with it?

 

The secondary reason for more congestion is because of the actions of the Council in their attempts to increase congestion.

 

Sorry, but there is no need for the amount of private car use on the roads these days.

 

I know of an incidence where a couple who work at the same company, same building, but both have cars and both drive in seperately as one prefers to start work a little later than the other. I find that extravagent and actually slightly obscene.

 

The amount of cars I see on the way to work with just one person, the driver, in them. It is the cars causing the congestion, not the buses.

 

Get people onto public transport. That is the answer.

[Coco]

Sorry, but there is no need for the amount of private car use on the roads these days.

 

I know of an incidence where a couple who work at the same company, same building, but both have cars and both drive in seperately as one prefers to start work a little later than the other. I find that extravagent and actually slightly obscene.

 

The amount of cars I see on the way to work with just one person, the driver, in them. It is the cars causing the congestion, not the buses.

 

Get people onto public transport. That is the answer.

 

I am in favour of individual choice. If those 2 people are dumb enough to throw away money on staggering their start like that then that should be up to them.

[Boris]

I am in favour of individual choice. If those 2 people are dumb enough to throw away money on staggering their start like that then that should be up to them.

 

But it isn't about them throwing their money away, it is the consequences of their actions on everyone else.

 

Some things are too important to be left to individual choice.

[Coco]

But it isn't about them throwing their money away, it is the consequences of their actions on everyone else.

 

Some things are too important to be left to individual choice.

 

Yes, there are clearly externalities involved here.

 

But would you agree that spending a few million pounds on reorganising/improving the bus service might be a better idea than spending hundreds of millions of pounds that Edinburgh Council doesn't have on the tram line?

 

PS here's a TMNT

[Boris]

Yes, there are clearly externalities involved here.

 

But would you agree that spending a few million pounds on reorganising/improving the bus service might be a better idea than spending hundreds of millions of pounds that Edinburgh Council doesn't have on the tram line?

 

PS here's a TMNT

 

I can actually see the rationale behind the tram service. Link the west & east of Edinburgh where a lot of people work and be able to get them there quickly and efficiently.

 

The 22 is a great service, but if the roads are clogged with private cars going to the same places then it defeats the purpose of the service. I guess with the trams there will not be any traffic jams.

 

Now, that isn't to say that the bus service couldn't be revamped. I'd be all for that in conjunction with the trams.

 

Now the *****ly issue of cost - I'm not a fan of PPP or PFI or whatever name it is given. It seems that everything is loaded in the favour of the private contractor who can quote one thing then charge something completely different, i.e. higher, after the tender has been secured. Financial management is paramount as is efficiency. I'm just not sure if ANYONE seems to be able to deliver these things now.

[Sheriff Fatman]

Of course more car, bus and van etc. journeys are the main factor behind increases in traffic congestion. Just people going about their daily lives. What have parking violations or speeders got to do with it?

 

The secondary reason for more congestion is because of the actions of the Council in their attempts to increase congestion.

 

Parking violations and speeders come into it because it is the mindset of all too many car drivers. They think that because they are in their metal bubble that the rest of the world should treat them as if they are the most important person in the world and only their 'rights' matter, and hang to all those that their self importance and selfishness affects.

 

There is no right to have total freedom on the roads, there is only the chance to use the road within the law and with as little impact on other people as possible.

 

Speeding fines, parking fines, bus lanes, public transport, and other restictions on raod use are there to try and give as many people the chance to travel in as much comfort, safety and little delay as possible. Not to tax or obstruct car drivers, and not to give councilors friends and relatives contracts.

[murdo_b]

I don't know what the congestion in the city centre is like as for the last year or so I have avoided it like the plague. Dirty and the same shops as a retail park.

[Optimus Prime]

In terms of the "enlightenment" of the Edinburgh people. Edinburgh has not seen a project of this scale implemented, London on the other hand has on numerous occasions and the levels of public outcry reflect that.

 

If your attitude is as made out in point 2 i assume that you advocate no more transport infrastructure projects in Edinburgh?

 

I do believe that TIE could have sold it to the people far better through a vastly improved marketing campaign to engage the citizens of Edinburgh more. This combined with the disgraceful scaremongering role the Evening News has played has created this attitude towards Trams.

 

Correct.

 

It really does amaze me that people honestly think that TIE and the Council are just throwing money at something they've not thought through for some kind of ego trip. There have been lots of studies done on the transport situation in Edinburgh and the conclusion is that the status quo is not an option. Scrapping projects such as these (and the Edinburgh Airport Rail Link) will just lead to gridlock and a transport/environmental disaster. There are many highly educated intelligent people working on this project who know the benefits it will bring to the city long term. The problem comes when you get greedy contractors on board who just want to squeeze as much money from you as possible.

 

The Evening News really has a lot to answer for in terms of the way they have portrayed this project to the people of Edinburgh. There is a lot of talk on this forum about the agenda that Glasgow based media have with Hearts but as far as i'm concerned the agenda the Evening news has against it's own council and progress for it's home city is nothing short of scandalous. If you want public floggings may i suggest you start with the chief editor of the Evening News.

 

 

http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/topstories/Tram-works-prevent-hearses-stopping.5028018.jp

 

I rest my case, how desparate is this rag of a paper.

[Deodato]

This is an interesting debate.

 

My only addition would be the concept of 'internal competition'.

 

Think displacement, for the trams to work, they need to compete for bus users to 'switch'. Unless you're going to force the bus service to be less successful, the bus companies will react by dropping prices and offering more quanitity (routes). Other agents, less significant, can adjust as well - taxi's might enter the new markets created by population and train plans might see opportunities.

 

Point is - public transport policy, when funded by the tax payer - needs to be joined up. Should they build a train line to Edinburgh Airport, we might have three forms of public transportation competing with each other for a finite pool of commuters.

 

On the face of it, I don't see much joined up policy making by the council, although I may be wrong.

 

Deodato

[Optimus Prime]

This is an interesting debate.

 

My only addition would be the concept of 'internal competition'.

 

Think displacement, for the trams to work, they need to compete for bus users to 'switch'. Unless you're going to force the bus service to be less successful, the bus companies will react by dropping prices and offering more quanitity (routes). Other agents, less significant, can adjust as well - taxi's might enter the new markets created by population and train plans might see opportunities.

 

Point is - public transport policy, when funded by the tax payer - needs to be joined up. Should they build a train line to Edinburgh Airport, we might have three forms of public transportation competing with each other for a finite pool of commuters.

 

On the face of it, I don't see much joined up policy making by the council, although I may be wrong.

 

Deodato

 

 

Operation of the tram will fall under the remit of Lothian Buses with ticketing for bus and trams aligned.

[Stuart Lyon]

A cartel!

[Coco]

A cartel!

 

No the plan is to lumber Lothian Buses (through the same holding company)with the primary responsibility for the millions of pounds of losses each year which the trams will make.

 

The bus company will then remove bus services and raise fares (as well as reduce the quality of its buses over time), with the remaining millions of pounds of shortfalls to be borne by Edinburgh Council taxpayers, rate payers and chargees.

[Taffin]

Sorry, but there is no need for the amount of private car use on the roads these days.

 

I know of an incidence where a couple who work at the same company, same building, but both have cars and both drive in seperately as one prefers to start work a little later than the other. I find that extravagent and actually slightly obscene.

 

The amount of cars I see on the way to work with just one person, the driver, in them. It is the cars causing the congestion, not the buses.

 

Get people onto public transport. That is the answer.

 

Maybe, just maybe, people don't want to use the bloody public transport though.

Never runs on time, prices rising at well above the rate of inflation, loud, uncomfortable, slow, doesn't go where you want and the amount of junkies and fruitloops that use buses just makes it a horrible experience.