Cow Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Zibi Malkowski = Legend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartgarfunkel Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 At the grand old age of 38 I would caution the young pups on the folly of not seeking out knowledge regarding the legends of yore. As a youth of the 80s, one of the great joys was in partaking of the wisdom of elders (Hibs and Hearts). This was mostly gleaned in Saturday pre-match afternoon drinking sessions in the company of oldies who, dependent upon generation, would wax lyrical upon the greatness of 3 Fingers Jake, Purdie, Isaac Begbie, Battles (Snr.), Willie Michael, the unsurpassable Bobby Walker, Paddy Crossan, Duncan Currie et al, Andy Black, Battles (Jnr.), Massie, etc,etc. One or two of the old boys might have seen the Bold Barney B, or Alex Massie, but the vast majority were using handed-down oral history and hindsight to complement their own-life love and recollection of Ford, Gibson, Busby, Moller, Wallace, Young, The Trio etc. Hibbies (in general) had the wonderful Famous Five and the Baker Boy with a nip of Stanton and a dash of George Best poured in for good measure, in their mind's eye. It runs deeper for us Hearts. And this is a major factor in what makes us great amongst all of the worthy old Victorian teams. Like Edinburgh, we love the past, we dreep off auld castle walls into vats of reeking heritage. We don't scream 'If you know your history', because it's a ****ing given that we do. Long may it continue. You didn't have to be there to appreciate it, but it is your duty to celebrate and perpetuate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert Pupkin Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Maybe not a legend but performed a legendary feat scoring 4 times in his 1st derby MARK DE VRIES.Will be talked about 4 many years and inspired OOHHH this is so MARK DE VRIESY!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbo27_22 Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Aside from record goalscorer and record appearance holder, it's all about medals for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbee647 Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 my grandfather who died in 1980 attended his first ever Hearts game in 1906,(he also played trials in 1918) and he always maintained that Dave Mackay was the best Hearts player he ever saw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingston Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 not a player,but a hearts legend though WALLACE MERCER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
14flogel Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Only one legend in my time watching Hearts and that was Robbo. Lots of cult hereos Cruickie, Ford, McKay, Etc but only Robbo qulalifies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hearts Heritage Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Aside from record goalscorer and record appearance holder, it's all about medals for me. So you have just condemned 100 odd years of Hearts History to the dustbin. So great players like Tommy Walker (as a player), Andy Black, Tiger Anderson, Alex Massie would not be considered. Heart of Mid-Lothian has never been just about medals. We went 48 (or 50 years if you discount the league Cup) and 36 (or 42 years) trophyless. NOT A LEGEND NOT A LEGEND. Don't make me laugh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hearts Heritage Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Post Bosman; A problem We now face is that it is very unlikely if a player is truly any good that he would stay with Hearts for the 15 odd years that Robbo or Gary MacKay did. So the 'old entry criteria' may never now be met. So a player like Robbie may now be the standard mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tott Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 in my mind jc is far more a legend than skacel or mccann JC more of a legend than skacel and mccann put together,Rudi may have been one of the most talented players to play for hearts recently,But a legend..nae chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingston Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 JC more of a legend than skacel and mccann put together,Rudi may have been one of the most talented players to play for hearts recently,But a legend..nae chance. is that not what i already said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del1812 Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Life is not all black and white and there is no way you can come up for criteria of what makes a legend. I agree wholeheartedly with the posters who state that if someone views a player as a legend then he is a legend in their eyes and that shouldn't be up for question. My legends are: Robertson and Hartley. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hearts Heritage Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Life is not all black and white and there is no way you can come up for criteria of what makes a legend. ... Of course there is IMO, It may use a sort of fuzzy logic. We may argue over the parameters but there are certain measures you can apply e.g. 200 + apps 50 + goals 10 + caps 20 + goals in a season 2 or more seasons as Captain I agree wholeheartedly with the posters who state that if someone views a player as a legend then he is a legend in their eyes and that shouldn't be up for question. Undoubtedly true but an idiotic opinion is still an idiotic opinion. You site Paul Hartley. A man responsible for one of the greatest days I've had watching Hearts and a truly legendary performance up there with the individual Derby feats alongside the likes of James McGhee, Barney Battles Jnr, Joe Baker or Alex Young. However he only played for Hearts for 3.5 years made 149 apps. One less that the 150 apps by Alan Gordon, Jim Townsend and John Millar. Are they legends too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del1812 Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Of course there is IMO, It may use a sort of fuzzy logic. We may argue over the parameters but there are certain measures you can apply e.g. 200 + apps 50 + goals 10 + caps 20 + goals in a season 2 or more seasons as Captain Undoubtedly true but an idiotic opinion is still an idiotic opinion. You site Paul Hartley. A man responsible for one of the greatest days I've had watching Hearts and a truly legendary performance up there with the individual Derby feats alongside the likes of James McGhee, Barney Battles Jnr, Joe Baker or Alex Young. However he only played for Hearts for 3.5 years made 149 apps. One less that the 150 apps by Alan Gordon, Jim Townsend and John Millar. Are they legends too? Did they (just about) single handedly win us one of the most important and greatest games in our history? I could say Ryan McGowan is a legend because he has twice bought me a drink when I met him up town. I know why you don't think he's a legend but that's my own opinion. BTW, I'm not actually saying he is a legend, just making an example - top bloke though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tott Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 is that not what i already said You did that. I meant to multi quote :-) didnt sodding work though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Wiseau Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Define 'legend'? You could have saved yourself 2 pages of discussion; Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hearts Heritage Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 ...... single handedly win us one of the most important and greatest games in our history? Exactly it was a single performance, a truly legendary act, in arguably the most important Derby given that Gretna were the finalists. You'll say to your Grandchildren "I was there that day when Paul Hartley got the hat-trick versus Hibernian". However you will say I saw "John Robertson play for Heart of Midlothian". It is about the totality of his career rather than one exceptional performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del1812 Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Exactly it was a single performance, a truly legendary act, in arguably the most important Derby given that Gretna were the finalists. You'll say to your Grandchildren "I was there that day when Paul Hartley got the hat-trick versus Hibernian". However you will say I saw "John Robertson play for Heart of Midlothian". It is about the totality of his career rather than one exceptional performance. Yes, but that is your definition and also your opinion of Paul Hartley. I would say to my grandson I saw "Paul Hartley play for Hearts", he was my favourite player and I absolutely loved watching him play for us. When he was at his best, for me he was the perfect player to watch. A cheeky little ****e who would bomb up and down the park with terrific pace and energy giving it his all for the club. At times when I was bored I just used to watch Hartley. There was no player I loved scoring more against Hibs and he done it on a number of occasions. I know he only did it for 3 years but in this day and age I cannot see there being many really good Hearts players who play for longer than that - does that mean this generation cannot have their own legends because they don't have the right appearance criteria? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 All purely in my opinion: Legends The entire team of 1914/15 Bobby Walker Tommy Walker Alfie Conn Willie Bauld Jimmy Wardhaugh Dave Mackay Jim Cruickshank Drew Busby John Robertson Jim Jefferies (because he ended the wait) Wallace Mercer Elias Furst Nearly, but not quite Gary Mackay Craig Levein Stephen Pressley John Colquhoun Paul Hartley Antti Niemi Alex MacDonald (who almost ended the wait) Cult heroes Walter Kidd Pasquale Bruno Rudolph Skacel Robbie Neilson (the cult hero of his day) I've set a high bar - but surely, to be considered a legend, the bar should be set very high? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hearts Heritage Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 .... I know he only did it for 3 years but in this day and age I cannot see there being many really good Hearts players who play for longer than that - does that mean this generation cannot have their own legends because they don't have the right appearance criteria? See my post #59 on the very subject. So the parameters change over time, especially now. You're making a good case for inclusion based on his career at Hearts rather than just the 2nd April 2006. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 All purely in my opinion: Legends The entire team of 1914/15 Bobby Walker Tommy Walker Alfie Conn Willie Bauld Jimmy Wardhaugh Dave Mackay Jim Cruickshank Drew Busby John Robertson Jim Jefferies (because he ended the wait) Wallace Mercer Elias Furst Nearly, but not quite Gary Mackay Craig Levein Stephen Pressley John Colquhoun Paul Hartley Antti Niemi Alex MacDonald (who almost ended the wait) Cult heroes Walter Kidd Pasquale Bruno Rudolph Skacel Robbie Neilson (the cult hero of his day) I've set a high bar - but surely, to be considered a legend, the bar should be set very high? Three additions to the above. Wayne Foster and Scott Crabbe in the cult heroes section; Colin Cameron and Stephane Adam in the nearly but not quite one. Also, the Buzzbomb may better belong in either of the non-legend categories - but I'm not sure TBH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
japanjambo Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Three additions to the above. Wayne Foster and Scott Crabbe in the cult heroes section; Colin Cameron and Stephane Adam in the nearly but not quite one. Also, the Buzzbomb may better belong in either of the non-legend categories - but I'm not sure TBH. Definately put Busby in the cult hero category. And personally, for me, he's a legend too. I do tend to be a bit biased when it comes to Sir Drew though;) Lynn:ninja: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Only a Game Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Wayne Foster Foster is a funny one. A truely average player who scored ONE legendary goal surely doesnt qualify him as a legend. The goal qualifies as legendary and happened to be scored by him (He could hardly have missed by the way) Gary Locke is another one that I just cant see the legend side of. What did he ever achieve at Hearts which falls into the legendary category ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Definately put Busby in the cult hero category. And personally, for me, he's a legend too. I do tend to be a bit biased when it comes to Sir Drew though;) Lynn:ninja: Nooooo! You, Lynn? Never! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
best in the land Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 All purely in my opinion: Legends The entire team of 1914/15 Bobby Walker Tommy Walker Alfie Conn Willie Bauld Jimmy Wardhaugh Dave Mackay Jim Cruickshank Drew Busby John Robertson Jim Jefferies (because he ended the wait) Wallace Mercer Elias Furst Nearly, but not quite Gary Mackay Craig Levein Stephen Pressley John Colquhoun Paul Hartley Antti Niemi Alex MacDonald (who almost ended the wait) Cult heroes Walter Kidd Pasquale Bruno Rudolph Skacel Robbie Neilson (the cult hero of his day) I've set a high bar - but surely, to be considered a legend, the bar should be set very high? would also add john cumming to legend but agree with the general idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 would also add john cumming to legend but agree with the general idea. You're spot on. Cumming is indeed a legend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 If Gary MacKay is on anyone's list in whichever category then Henry Smith & Walter Kidd must be in the same category surely? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Also by what criteria is Bobby Parker being excluded from many people's lists? A ten year playing career most of them as team & club captain, first captain in 48 years to lift a trophy, reserve team coach, post playing career long service as club director & eventually chairman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Only a Game Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 If Gary MacKay is on anyone's list in whichever category then Henry Smith & Walter Kidd must be in the same category surely? Mackay is whatever the status is below legend Henry Smith selt the jerseys in big games more often than I care to remember. Walter Kidd was almost single handedly at fault for our thrashing in the 1986 Cup Final. (I have never seen a full back so comprehensively and repeatedly taken apart by a winger as I saw Peter Weir do to Kidd that day) He was a DREADFUL footballer, surely one of the most overrated ever to wear the jersey for any length of time. Neither Smith nor Kidd are worthy of mention when the subject is "legends" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Mackay is whatever the status is below legend Henry Smith selt the jerseys in big games more often than I care to remember. Walter Kidd was almost single handedly at fault for our thrashing in the 1986 Cup Final. (I have never seen a full back so comprehensively and repeatedly taken apart by a winger as I saw Peter Weir do to Kidd that day) He was a DREADFUL footballer, surely one of the most overrated ever to wear the jersey for any length of time. Neither Smith nor Kidd are worthy of mention when the subject is "legends" The point is OAG is that the top 10 in the all time appearances list is G.Mackay, Robertson, H.Smith, Cruickshank, Cumming, A.Anderson, Kidd, Colquhoun, Wardhaugh, Bauld. Those in bold achieved (won) nothing at Hearts except their distinguished long careers - so which are legends and which aren't and by what criteria are we making this judgement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Only a Game Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 The point is OAG is that the top 10 in the all time appearances list isG.Mackay, Robertson, H.Smith, Cruickshank, Cumming, A.Anderson, Kidd, Colquhoun, Wardhaugh, Bauld. Those in bold achieved (won) nothing at Hearts except their distinguished long careers - so which are legends and which aren't and by what criteria are we making this judgement? I think the start off point should be that they won something. Robbo is an exception to this having won nothing (I dont really count his Cup Medal since he didnt play, one of the great shames about that day) but his goals record, especially in derby games, over a number of years qualifies him in my book. After that its a matter of opinion I suppose. For example I think Paul Hartley is far more entitled to the tag "legend" than Drew Busby is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 I think the start off point should be that they won something. Robbo is an exception to this having won nothing (I dont really count his Cup Medal since he didnt play, one of the great shames about that day) but his goals record, especially in derby games, over a number of years qualifies him in my book. After that its a matter of opinion I suppose. For example I think Paul Hartley is far more entitled to the tag "legend" than Drew Busby is. Well John Colquhoun (like many of the 86 team) was unlucky not to win anything in his Hearts career but I'd say John Colquhoun provided many dozens more enjoyable & memorable moments than Hartley did and for a lot longer so that's why Colquhoun is more of a Legend than Hartley or Skacel to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 The point is OAG is that the top 10 in the all time appearances list isG.Mackay, Robertson, H.Smith, Cruickshank, Cumming, A.Anderson, Kidd, Colquhoun, Wardhaugh, Bauld. Those in bold achieved (won) nothing at Hearts except their distinguished long careers - so which are legends and which aren't and by what criteria are we making this judgement? I don't think there can be an objective criteria: everyone will have different opinions. Cruickie made my list, Bobby Parker and John Cumming should've been on it, but Mackay and Colquhoun just missed it (as I note they have in OAG's case too), and as we've discussed before, given I only caught the tail end years of Henry Smith's time, find it absolutely impossible to consider him a legend, or even close to one. Kidd, also, was simply not good enough as a player to make the cut-off point - so I consider him a cult hero instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Only a Game Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Well John Colquhoun (like many of the 86 team) was unlucky not to win anything in his Hearts career but I'd say John Colquhoun provided many dozens more enjoyable & memorable moments than Hartley did and for a lot longer so that's why Colquhoun is more of a Legend than Hartley or Skacel to me. Maybe the whole "legend" thing is pure subjective personal choice then. Colquhoun just makes it for me as well on the grounds of repeated excellence and pleasurable memories (some of them since he stopped playing), but Hartley was responsible for two of the three best moments of my whole Hearts supporting life. Skacel you can keep. A mercenary on a lucky streak as far as I'm concerned although some would undoubtedly say he was just as responsible for 2005/06 as Hartley was. They'd be way wrong IMO but there you go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 All those ten are legends to me - they gave great service to the club and provided thousands of memorable moments - plenty others like Donald Ford & Craig Levein would also come into that category.......that's what makes them HEARTS legends to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Only a Game Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 All those ten are legends to me - they gave great service to the club and provided thousands of memorable moments - plenty others like Donald Ford & Craig Levein would also come into that category.......that's what makes them HEARTS legends to me No big deal Charlie. Your criteria for the "legend" label is simply different to others. Alan Anderson though ???......C'mon !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 No big deal Charlie. Your criteria for the "legend" label is simply different to others. Alan Anderson though ???......C'mon !!! I only ever saw Alan Anderson play twice, sat outside his pub more than that as a kid whilst Dad & his pals were inside - I caught Cruickie's last 18 months or so and Donald Ford's last full season, Dad saw much more of those players than I did & he liked them in what were admittedly poorer Hearts teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Only a Game Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 I only ever saw Alan Anderson play twice, sat outside his pub more than that as a kid whilst Dad & his pals were inside - I caught Cruickie's last 18 months or so and Donald Ford's last full season, Dad saw much more of those players than I did & he liked them in what were admittedly poorer Hearts teams. I saw all three for about the first 3 or 4 seasons I was a Hearts fan. Anderson was an average centre half at best. A committed Hearts man and player no doubt about that. Not a good enough player to fall into most peoples "legend" list though IMO of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotland Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 A picture tells a thousand words.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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