The pyramid scheme - has it worked?

[Coco]

Next week will mark the 4th anniversary of the real start to the Hearts pyramid scheme. Miko's first game (according to London Hearts) was on 25 January 2005.

 

Has the pyramid scheme worked?

 

Would Bednar/Aguiar/Goncalves have signed for Hearts rather than the slightly obscure loan then transfer setup? How many of the players were an out and out success? How many a failure? No players have come through from Ripo as far as I remember? Was this pyramid scheme necessary to the grand plan involving UBIG/Ukio Bankas? Has importing so many players from one team been a negative factor or a positive factor for team harmony/spirit?

 

And with the return to Kaunas of many of the loaned pyramid players - is the pyramid scheme now dead?

[Guest JamboRobbo]

The Pyramid of Pish sums it up pretty well. I hope it is dead.

[Ryan Gosling]

Next week will mark the 4th anniversary of the real start to the Hearts pyramid scheme. Miko's first game (according to London Hearts) was on 25 January 2005.

 

Has the pyramid scheme worked?

 

Would Bednar/Aguiar/Goncalves have signed for Hearts rather than the slightly obscure loan then transfer setup? How many of the players were an out and out success? How many a failure? No players have come through from Ripo as far as I remember? Was this pyramid scheme necessary to the grand plan involving UBIG/Ukio Bankas? Has importing so many players from one team been a negative factor or a positive factor for team harmony/spirit?

 

And with the return to Kaunas of many of the loaned pyramid players - is the pyramid scheme now dead?

 

Jinx.

 

[Charlie-Brown]

A number of players made important contributions not least in keeping player costs down compared to more expensive imports.

[Coco]

A number of players made important contributions not least in keeping player costs down compared to more expensive imports.

 

Did the ?3.85m of 'registration fees' go to the pyramid?

[Rust Cohle]

Next week will mark the 4th anniversary of the real start to the Hearts pyramid scheme. Miko's first game (according to London Hearts) was on 25 January 2005.

 

Has the pyramid scheme worked?

 

Would Bednar/Aguiar/Goncalves have signed for Hearts rather than the slightly obscure loan then transfer setup? How many of the players were an out and out success? How many a failure? No players have come through from Ripo as far as I remember? Was this pyramid scheme necessary to the grand plan involving UBIG/Ukio Bankas? Has importing so many players from one team been a negative factor or a positive factor for team harmony/spirit?

 

And with the return to Kaunas of many of the loaned pyramid players - is the pyramid scheme now dead?

 

Think it depends on how you determine the term success.

 

On a footballing side only a few have made a positive impact on the first team (recently Bruno, Miko and Zal and Velicka's goalscoring run last season).

 

On a financial side Skacel, Bednar and Velicka have been sold at a profit, hopefully Goncalves will follow. Whether we see any of this money is a different question.

 

The majority of others we've had to cut our losses or just send them back.

 

Remember these loan deals have not come cheap for us, we've spent millions on them.

 

Obviously without Vlad's financial backing we would not have been able to sign some great players, Rudi, Kari, Takis et al, but as far as the pyramid structure is concerned I don't think its been a success at all.

 

Too expensive, too many huddys in a hearts shirt and too much ridicule from the media.

[Cut The Crap]

Next week will mark the 4th anniversary of the real start to the Hearts pyramid scheme. Miko's first game (according to London Hearts) was on 25 January 2005.

 

Has the pyramid scheme worked?

 

Would Bednar/Aguiar/Goncalves have signed for Hearts rather than the slightly obscure loan then transfer setup? How many of the players were an out and out success? How many a failure? No players have come through from Ripo as far as I remember? Was this pyramid scheme necessary to the grand plan involving UBIG/Ukio Bankas? Has importing so many players from one team been a negative factor or a positive factor for team harmony/spirit?

 

And with the return to Kaunas of many of the loaned pyramid players - is the pyramid scheme now dead?

 

I find it hard to judge whether it worked or not because I never truly understood what it was intended to achieve?

[Guest JamboRobbo]

A number of players made important contributions not least in keeping player costs down compared to more expensive imports.

 

And a bigger number of players made negative contributions, costing us points by being totally incompetent yet playing anyway, and also by upsetting morale of the real football players in the squad. They also cost HMFC money (despite your protestations to the contrary at the time which suddenly dissapeared recently when you were discussing how we couldn't afford to send Ksanavicius home, and despite the unexplained 3.85M player registration payments which you conveniently choose to ignore). This money could have been spent on real football players rather than imposters.

[The Don]

Next week will mark the 4th anniversary of the real start to the Hearts pyramid scheme. Miko's first game (according to London Hearts) was on 25 January 2005.

 

Has the pyramid scheme worked?

 

Would Bednar/Aguiar/Goncalves have signed for Hearts rather than the slightly obscure loan then transfer setup? How many of the players were an out and out success? How many a failure? No players have come through from Ripo as far as I remember? Was this pyramid scheme necessary to the grand plan involving UBIG/Ukio Bankas? Has importing so many players from one team been a negative factor or a positive factor for team harmony/spirit?

 

And with the return to Kaunas of many of the loaned pyramid players - is the pyramid scheme now dead?

 

Good points.

 

I think the "Pyramid system" has only been a success for some, and to be honest was a good idea. Bring in players to benefit Hearts for a couple of years then move them on for bigger transfer fees benefitting hearts and reducing the debt. However there have been quite a few failures. Some of the players brought in were appallingly bad, this system of bringing players from a lower standard of league to increase value only works when the players are of a good enough standard to compete in the league they are being introduced to.

 

Success's :

Miko

Chesny

Velicka

Zaliuskas

Kari

 

 

I wouldnt realy say players like Skacel, Aguiar, Bednar, Pospisil, Kingston, Goncalves, Nade are part of the "Pyramid System" in its true form, they came straight to Hearts either on loan or direct transfer from clubs outwith the system. What is interesting is those 7 players are the ones we have or will really be making the big money on out of the players we have brought in over the last 4 years. With the exception of maybe Zaliuskas but there again like the Velicka sale will Hearts see any of that money?

 

I think the intentions were maybe a good idea but overall it hasn't really worked as was planned.

[Charlie-Brown]

I think a fair chunk of the 'undisclosed' money was spent on Pinilla - how much is anyones guess? The remainder to transfer bednar, jose, aguiar Hearts.

[Ryan Gosling]

Good points.

 

I think the "Pyramid system" has been a success for some, and to be honest was a good idea. Bring in players to benefit Hearts for a couple of years then move them on for bigger transfer fees benefitting hearts and reducing the debt. However there have been quite a few failures. Some of the players brought in were appallingly bad, this system of bringing players from a lower standard of league to increase value only works when the players are of a good enough standard to compete in the league they are being introduced to.

 

Success's :

Miko

Chesny

Velicka

Zaliuskas

Kari

 

 

I wouldnt realy say players like Skacel, Aguiar, Bednar, Pospisil, Kingston, Goncalves, Nade are part of the "Pyramid System" in its true form, they came straight to Hearts either on loan or direct transfer. What is interesting is those 7 players are the ones we have or will really be making the big money on out of the players we have brought in over the last 4 years. With the exception of maybe Zaliuskas but there again like the Velicka sale will Hearts see any of that money?

 

I think the intentions were maybe a good idea but overall it hasn't really worked as was planned.

 

Kari's nowt to do with the pyramid.

[Sparky]

As with everything at Hearts, the pyramid system has failed due to incompetent management throughout the club. The pyramid scheme could have worked if there had been a coherent plan and if it had been operated as a 'pull' system rather than 'push'. i.e. a manager or competent DoF picking the best or most appropriate players from Ripo and Kaunas rather than getting pushed into the hearts squad by AK/VR with little input from the coach.

 

The financial savings are negated by the ?3.8M of random fees we have paid out. (As coco has just said).

 

Pyramid systems could work but not in the way we utilised it.

[The Don]

Kari's nowt to do with the pyramid.

 

Fair do's i thought he went to Kaunas first then to us. Theres been that many it's difficult sometimes to keep tabs on whos been where in their time here.

[Jammy T]

In theory it was a great idea

 

In reality it has caused more harm than good.

 

It has caused / resulted in 1. cliques, 2. favouritism / teachers pet syndromo, 3. players not of Hearts standard repeatedly being played to the detriment of performances, 4. resentment of fans etc etc

 

All for a run of Velicka goals and a couple of Miko rakers

 

No thanks - been a blight on the history of Hearts player stats and the notion that you have to deserve and earn and be worthy of a place in the Hearts team

 

And the reality is if the intention was to window shop Lithuanian players then factually it has been an unmitigated disaster - only one out of god knows how many has earned a fee

 

If we start bringing in 16 and 17 year old genuine talents like this new lad and nurture them through the system fair dues

[Sparky]

Chesney isn't really pyramid either since he came straight from Russia IIRC.

 

That would make the successes:

Miko

Velicka

Zaliuskas

 

 

Not really good enough given the dross we had to endure.

 

Also worth thinking about is the opportunities lost by having pyramid players taking up squad and first team space. How many youngsters would have gained experience (for not much impact on performance) of first team football if some huddies hadn't been hoisted on us?

[Guest JamboRobbo]

Also worth thinking about is the opportunities lost by having pyramid players taking up squad and first team space. How many youngsters would have gained experience (for not much impact on performance) of first team football if some huddies hadn't been hoisted on us?

 

And how much resentment did this cause throughout the squad, upsetting players who were actually good enough to play for HMFC, in order to give undeserved opportunities to players who were not anywhere near the required standard.

 

I also agree with Jammy T, that properly used, the system could have provided a competitive advantage to HMFC. Instead, due to poor control and poor management, the system was abused by people who had no clue about football, and it ended up a total disaster and did a lot of harm to HMFC.

[Ryan Gosling]

Chesney isn't really pyramid either since he came straight from Russia IIRC.

 

That would make the successes:

Miko

Velicka

Zaliuskas

 

 

Not really good enough given the dross we had to endure.

 

Also worth thinking about is the opportunities lost by having pyramid players taking up squad and first team space. How many youngsters would have gained experience (for not much impact on performance) of first team football if some huddies hadn't been hoisted on us?

 

Barasa isn't pyramid either then, nor is Janke.

[Charlie-Brown]

The time & money wasted on pinilla, beslija, makela, pospisil, goncalves, basso etc should be a far bigger concern than kaunas players.

[Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC]

A number of players made important contributions not least in keeping player costs down compared to more expensive imports.

 

Lol.

[We_are_the_Hearts]

The time & money wasted on pinilla, beslija, makela, pospisil, goncalves, basso etc should be a far bigger concern than kaunas players.

 

Correct, that's what happens when players are not scouted properly and don't have their character analysed by the MANAGER. Our scouting system was a disaster and it looks like Vlad has accepted that.

 

Things look on the up now though so as Csaba would say, lets not wast too much energy on the past!!

[Charlie-Brown]

If Fridrikas arrives & with young Arvydas, Kello & Mrowiec who came in summer reports of the end of the pyramid could be wide of the mark.

[Guest JamboRobbo]

The time & money wasted on pinilla, beslija, makela, pospisil, goncalves, basso etc should be a far bigger concern than kaunas players.

 

ha, so the cost of the Kaunus palyers is insignificant again today is it? So there'll have been little cost in getting rid of Ksanavicius then. Except you argued that there was significant cost to this.......

 

Make your mind up you can't twist it both ways.

[Guest JamboRobbo]

If Fridrikas arrives & with young Arvydas, Kello & Mrowiec who came in summer reports of the end of the pyramid could be wide of the mark.

 

We can only hope and pray that you are wrong.

[IMA MAROON]

It's hardly a pyramid as we have had nobody from Ripo.

[Guest JamboRobbo]

It's hardly a pyramid as we have had nobody from Ripo.

 

What about Hleb.

[Jammy T]

The time & money wasted on pinilla, beslija, makela, pospisil, goncalves, basso etc should be a far bigger concern than kaunas players.

 

Every piece of gross mismanagement by Romanov since he arrived is a concern C-B

 

The players you have listed have helped push us towards a financial abyss

 

The players who are the topic of this thread have (largely through no fault of their own admittedly but due to the pigheaded negligence of our higher echelons) caused other problems

 

We can start another thread about the ins and outs of our higher paid failures if you want though??

[Charlie-Brown]

The cost of terminating a loan may be significant or less significant depending on player, cost, loan terms etc. I said it wouldnt be cost free also not all loans are from kaunas.

[Guest JamboRobbo]

The cost of terminating a loan may be significant or less significant depending on player, cost, loan terms etc. I said it wouldnt be cost free also not all loans are from kaunas.

 

Stop trying to muddy the waters. The loan in question (ksanavicius) was from Kaunus. You said the cost of terminating it would be significant. And at the same time, your now trying to suggest the cost of these loans are insignificant and save HMFC money.

 

You can't twist it both ways.

[Charlie-Brown]

Kaunas players earn less by comparison however a player earning ?3k per week might cost ?78K to terminate a loan 6 months early IF the loan agreement has to be paid in full.

[Guest JamboRobbo]

Kaunas players earn less by comparison however a player earning ?3k per week might cost ?78K to terminate a loan 6 months early IF the loan agreement has to be paid in full.

 

If we're paying the Kaunus players 3k a week, thats 3k a week too much for all but one or 2 of them. For that sort of money, we could be signing real football players.

[Charlie-Brown]

I didnt say we were i just used that figure for example. A ?1k player would be only be?26k to cancel, but if Arbroath had to wait several months then any spare cash at a premium.

[bighusref]

If we start bringing in 16 and 17 year old genuine talents like this new lad and nurture them through the system fair dues

 

Apologies for cutting out the rest of the post, but this bit is the most pertinent to what I have to say now.

 

"has it worked?" As a question, the answer has to be no. We have not seen enough from the players brought over to justify it.

 

A more interesting question, IMO, is WILL it work? It has been discussed ad nauseaum on here, but the general consensus (IIRC) was that after the failed investment in Jan 06, we would simply have to "wait it out" until our young players from Riccarton came through. We would have to put up with the odd signing but players from Kaunas/Ripo to augment our side. I feel that the players we have seen so far have been representative of that; squad players.

 

Now that we are approaching a decent base of young, homegrown players, IMO we will only see signings like Fredrikas and Novikovas (sp x2?) coming in. If that is to be the case, only the best from their youth teams plus the occasional manager selected first team player, then the answer would be yes, it WILL work.

 

We have been through the first stage of the transition to the type of club that VR wants us to be, it was horrible. We can only hope that we are starting to see a better (for Hearts) relationship with Kaunas and Ripo.

[IMA MAROON]

Romanov has done well at all the clubs he is involved with.

 

Kaunas have won 7 titles in 9 years, a stack of cups and are always in Europe

 

Ripo have gone from relegation team to a team that have won 2 cups, they are always fighting for the title and competing in Europe.

 

We have a Scottish cup and have split the Old Firm and if he hangs about there will be a lot more to come, imo.

 

Things could have went better at Hearts but you keep pretending that Romanov has achieved nothing and is the worst thing that has happened to the club.

 

Thanks.

[Guest JamboRobbo]

Things could have went better at Hearts but you keep pretending that Romanov has achieved nothing and is the worst thing that has happened to the club.

 

Who do you think is pretending he has achieved nothing? I've rarely seen a Hearts supporter who doesn't know that we won the SC and made it to CL group stage.

[Jammy T]

Romanov has done well at all the clubs he is involved with.

 

Kaunas have won 7 titles in 9 years, a stack of cups and are always in Europe

 

Ripo have gone from relegation team to a team that have won 2 cups, they are always fighting for the title and competing in Europe.

 

We have a Scottish cup and have split the Old Firm and if he hangs about there will be a lot more to come, imo.

 

Things could have went better at Hearts but you keep pretending that Romanov has achieved nothing and is the worst thing that has happened to the club.

 

Thanks.

 

Off topic alert

[alwaysthereinspirit]

The failures outweighed the success rate.

No for me.

[BervieJambo]

The failures outweighed the success rate.

No for me.

 

The same could be said for our youth system, though. Players can only prove themselves when given a chance. Someone can look good playing for the reserves or for Kaunus, but fall short when stepping up to the Hearts first team i.e. Mole / Beniusis, but they must be given the chance so we can sort out the good from the dross. Just because a player is Lithuanian, not Scottish, it doesn't automatically make them inferior, no matter what the weegia may say. Overall the pyramid has opened up the availability of lower cost players to Hearts, which can only be a good thing.

[Ally Alexander]

Did the ?3.85m of 'registration fees' go to the pyramid?

 

Could some of this be attributed to Larrys signing on fee and compensation for Ruben who bought out his contract?

[Guest JamboRobbo]

Could some of this be attributed to Larrys signing on fee and compensation for Ruben who bought out his contract?

 

None of your business.

[leginten]

Who do you think is pretending he has achieved nothing? I've rarely seen a Hearts supporter who doesn't know that we won the SC and made it to CL group stage.

 

I wish...

 

[He Who Cannot Be Named]

Romanov has done well at all the clubs he is involved with.

 

Kaunas have won 7 titles in 9 years, a stack of cups and are always in Europe

 

Ripo have gone from relegation team to a team that have won 2 cups, they are always fighting for the title and competing in Europe.

 

We have a Scottish cup and have split the Old Firm and if he hangs about there will be a lot more to come, imo.

 

Things could have went better at Hearts but you keep pretending that Romanov has achieved nothing and is the worst thing that has happened to the club.

 

Thanks.

 

He hasnt done well at all.. he just has a lot of money he can buy success with, he also sponsors half the teams in the league if im not mistaken...

 

George Burley was the main factor we won the cup and got to CL, not Romanov, Rix, Ivanauskas, and definetely not malofeev or that other clown Korobotchka.

 

Why are we all talking about a pyramid system when there are only 2 teams involved? My opinion is that it has not been a success due to gross mismanagment, however having a feeder club can only be benificial to us if utilised correctly. Im not sure the feeder club should be kaunas though if we have to pay them 3.85m per year for players like Beniusis, Kurskis and Klimek.

[FORTHCLYDE]

I am fed up asking this question. How can a player be on loan for 4 years?

[Dirk Diggler]

I am fed up asking this question. How can a player be on loan for 4 years?

 

By renewing it for a year at a time for a total of 4 years?

 

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

 

"Has the pyramid scheme worked?"

 

 

Classic.

[leginten]

 

"Has the pyramid scheme worked?"

 

 

Classic.

 

A pyramid scheme is a non-sustainable business model that involves the exchange of money primarily for enrolling other people into the scheme, often without any product or service being delivered, according to Wikipedia.

 

So even referring to it as such is probably a misnomer - makes it sound like something really crappy and shabby.

 

Whereas in reality it was much worse than that...

 

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

A pyramid scheme is a non-sustainable business model that involves the exchange of money primarily for enrolling other people into the scheme, often without any product or service being delivered, according to Wikipedia.

 

So even referring to it as such is probably a misnomer - makes it sound like something really crappy and shabby.

 

Whereas in reality it was much worse than that...

 

 

 

Bold = lovely.

 

Have Ripo contributed anything? Can it even be called a pyramid? Hearts and Kaunas only make two point, so we should be looking for something shaped in a line - like a long, smooth, slippery Jimmy White.

[Dr Ian Malcolm]

Tbf, the only players you can really class as pyramid players are the ones who were Kaunas players then came to Hearts.

 

Guys like Bruno, Goncalves, Bednar, Jankauskas and Chesny never playerd for them - Kaunas were used for financial reasons in these deals, nothing else.

 

Of the ones who were genuinely Kaunas players:

 

Velicka: Success

Miko: I'd say success

Zal: Still unsure

Ksanavicious: no

Ivaskevicius: no

Barasa: no

Kyzis(sp): For the short while he was here, probably a success. I thought he was decent anyway.

Kurskis: hell no

Klimek: lol

 

Off of those who left the club, we made ?0. Pyramid - fail.

[Ryan Gosling]

One thing's for sure - they've never hidden in the big games. Velicka has 4 against Celtic, 3 against hibs, 2 against Rangers. Miko has 2 against hibs and 1 against Celtic, Zal has 1 against hibs and Rangers, Ivaskevicius has 1 against both the OF!

[Dirk Diggler]

One thing's for sure - they've never hidden in the big games. Velicka has 4 against Celtic, 3 against hibs, 2 against Rangers. Miko has 2 against hibs and 1 against Celtic, Zal has 1 against hibs and Rangers, Ivaskevicius has 1 against both the OF!

 

[Ryan Gosling]

And if we count Janke, he had 2 against the vermin, 1 against the huns and 1 against Sellik too.