mullen13 Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 It is well documented that the reason scottish football is so far behind is because of its very limited fanbase. Scottish football is apparently the best supported league in europe per capita but every ground in scotland outside of the old firm has scores of empty seats every week. For example. Arbroath, Montrose, Forfar and Brechin are 4 football clubs within a stones throw of each other who attract very poor crowds. Large citys like Birmingham have the same amount of clubs on that small a space. The biggest problem is probably glory hunting bar stewards who travel to glasgow to watch smelltic and rankers every week. I have a mate who lives in Kirkcaldy and he says that more bus loads of people travel through to glasgow to watch the old firm than actually go to starks park to watch their local team raith rovers who have suffered because of this. They should just build a wall round that swamp! I am not suggesting for a second that clubs with rich histories should simply merge or fold but if we had fewer clubs, the remainin clubs would have more fans. Even a larger spl would be more exciting, with less leagues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Jambo Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 you shouldnt punish the loyal fans who do turn up to those games because of the glory-hunters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coppercrutch Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 An interesting fact, IIRC, is that Scotland has more professional football teams than Germany. Whether this is true or not it is still clear we have far too many teams in this country. The example above is a good one. It is simply insane. Stirling has 2 top league teams. Why !! If there was one team in Stirling it could actually be of a decent size. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Been saying this for years. A population of 5-6m people and 42 league clubs to sustain, not to mention Highland League, Senior Leagues, Junior Leagues. It is ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambovambo Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 An interesting fact, IIRC, is that Scotland has more professional football teams than Germany. Whether this is true or not it is still clear we have far too many teams in this country. The example above is a good one. It is simply insane. Stirling has 2 top league teams. Why !! If there was one team in Stirling it could actually be of a decent size. ... then there is Falkirk, Stenhousemuir ... nearby ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig_ Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Been saying this for years. A population of 5-6m people and 42 league clubs to sustain, not to mention Highland League, Senior Leagues, Junior Leagues. It is ridiculous. 2 leagues, then two regional leagues, then junior football below that, all with promotion and relegation would sort it out once and for all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherlock Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 ...The biggest problem is probably glory hunting bar stewards who travel to glasgow to watch smelltic and rankers every week. I have a mate who lives in Kirkcaldy and he says that more bus loads of people travel through to glasgow to watch the old firm than actually go to starks park to watch their local team raith rovers who have suffered because of this... I seem to remember that in sometime in the last 10 / 15 years, more people travelled through from Edinburgh to Glasgow to watch an Old Firm RESERVE derby than went to Tynecastle on the same day for an Edinburgh derby. I may talking Raphael though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K1874M Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Been saying this for years. A population of 5-6m people and 42 league clubs to sustain, not to mention Highland League, Senior Leagues, Junior Leagues. It is ridiculous. we do have the most people per head going to games each week in the world tho. Its a tough one... Cant really scrap teams due to the state of the national and club sides... possibly we should look at changing the league formats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherlock Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 2 leagues, then two regional leagues, then junior football below that, all with promotion and relegation would sort it out once and for all! I'd go further than that. Two senior leagues. Then four regional leagues - North, South, East & West comprising an amalgamation of the SS seniors, Juniors, Highland leagues etc. Promotion into 'league 2' may cause a problem with a team from one region going up and a team from different region going down but it could be workable. The committee men of all the 'wee' leagues would never allow it though, they'd have to relinquish their power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo66 Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 It seems to me there are two main problems. Firstly, there are too many senior clubs in Scotland. Secondly, the teams in the 3rd Division are protected from relegation and as a result, only following reorganisation or a team folding, can a non-senior club get into the "club". I think that for the future of Scottish football, it is essential that we weed out some of the senior teams. Ideally, we should be aiming to have two leagues of 16 with regional leagues below that. Promotion and relegation should be possible from top to bottom. This would allow ambitious teams an opportunity to get somewhere while removing some of the deadwood at the same time. I accept that there are lots of issues about whether or not Scottish football has enough decent teams to have a 16 team top league, or if teams could cope with giving up home ties against the OF, or if it take us back to the bad old days of the early 70s. I don't think that the SPL would be a worse league for having the top four teams in the 1st Division in it. People often say that there were too many meaningless games. Well, have a look at the attendances for some of the games in the SPL at the moment where games are supposedly meaningful. It would also give promoted teams a better chance at establishing themselves in the top flight without having to go on a ridiculous spending spree which eventually results in their downfall. As for giving up games against the OF, 6 teams would only be giving up 1 game each as they are in the bottom six. Much more damaging to these teams is the fact that the OF snap up any half decent players they have. In addition, if you only play the OF twice a season, surely teams will be more willing to have a real go at them - particularly at home. For some teams, 6 or 8 matches against the OF equates to 15+ or 20+ dropped points under the current system. As for the bad old days of the 70s, were they really that bad? Or to put it another way, were they any worse than a huge number of the seasons we have had since? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossi_1983 Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Try telling that to the fans who turn up to these games! If you removed their clubs, then I think you would just remove them from the footballing fanbase. If Hearts folded, I would not support any other Scottish team As long as the clubs have enough fans to sustain their existence, then I don't see the problem. I would prevent new plastic clubs from forming, and just keep the traditional ones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chester copperpot Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 I seem to remember that in sometime in the last 10 / 15 years, more people travelled through from Edinburgh to Glasgow to watch an Old Firm RESERVE derby than went to Tynecastle on the same day for an Edinburgh derby. I may talking Raphael though. You're right. think it was when Duncan Ferguson was released from Jail and made his comeback. Totally agree with the OP sentiments, far too many senior clubs in Scotland for us to ever be successful. If we use the Caley Thistle example of 2 arch enemies uniting, then I think we have proof that it can work, despite 2 sets of hardcore fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigwull22 Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 far too many teams, but would you support a team merged with the hobo's, no I didn't think so, I would imagine the smaller teams would think the same, so its no gonnae happen, opening up the third division might help, but you could easily end up with another gretna situation. Oh and getting rid of Rangers and Celtic would help more to spruce the league up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo66 Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 I'd go further than that. Two senior leagues. Then four regional leagues - North, South, East & West comprising an amalgamation of the SS seniors, Juniors, Highland leagues etc. Promotion into 'league 2' may cause a problem with a team from one region going up and a team from different region going down but it could be workable. The committee men of all the 'wee' leagues would never allow it though, they'd have to relinquish their power. That would be no problem at all. If say, 4 east teams were relegated in a particular season, then teams would move from the east to the west or south or north to ensure the right number of teams in each league. A team from Stirling could play in east or west or even north without too much difficulty for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Canada Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 England has 92 league teams and a population of approx 55 million - we have 42 league teams and a population of around 5 million Going by those figures I reckon we should have one professional league with 10 teams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RussG Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 An interesting fact, IIRC, is that Scotland has more professional football teams than Germany. Whether this is true or not it is still clear we have far too many teams in this country. The example above is a good one. It is simply insane. Stirling has 2 top league teams. Why !! If there was one team in Stirling it could actually be of a decent size. Stirling doesn't have two teams does it? East Stirlingshire play in Falkirk. I take your point though, around that area alone you have two Falkirk teams, Stiling Albion and Stenny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blairdin Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 ... then there is Falkirk, Stenhousemuir ... nearby ... In fairness to Falkirk, they are easily on a par with Motherwell so wouldn't drag them into this debate. Also here in Falkirk we have Stenhousemuir, East Stirling and Camelon Juniors. There is no easy answer to this. Think of the uproar if a Hearts-Hibs or Dundee-Dundee United merger was proposed. It's no different for smaller clubs - they have their history they are proud of so you can't just bin them. What is needed is a structure that allows all the clubs in Scotland to succeed within their limits and their means. What we need is a pryamid system that supports them all. The SPL as it is (extending the SPL is another debate entirely that's been done to death), a 20 team first division, then maybe 4 regional leagues feeding into the new first divison. For example, an East Regional Premier with one promotion spot into the First Division and relegation into an East Regional First Division and then as many "East" divisions as needed to accomodate all the clubs. Same set up for West, same again for Central and also for Highland. The regional leagues would mean that East Stirling, their part time players and 20 fans don't have financially crippling away jaunts to Peterhead (for example) two or three times a season where they barely cover expenses, let alone appearance money. As someone who enjoys watching the local teams out here when Hearts are not playing, I think a central regional league including the likes of East Stirling, Alloa, Stenhousemuir, Camelon Juniors, Linlithgow Rose, Albion Rovers among others would be very competitive. Chances of the SFA, SPL, junior and senior associations ever getting together to make this happen - slim to nil unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firefox Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Stirling has 2 top league teams. Why !! If there was one team in Stirling it could actually be of a decent size. Stirling has only 1 top league team AFAIK, and that is Stirling Albion. East Stirlingshire play in Falkirk, at Firs park, a stones throw away from the old Brockville. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherlock Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 ...Chances of the SFA, SPL, junior and senior associations ever getting together to make this happen - slim to nil unfortunately. Just nil, IMO. The blazers aren't interested in the good of the game in this country. They're only interested in what's good for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboJen Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 It seems to me there are two main problems. Firstly, there are too many senior clubs in Scotland. Secondly, the teams in the 3rd Division are protected from relegation and as a result, only following reorganisation or a team folding, can a non-senior club get into the "club". I think that for the future of Scottish football, it is essential that we weed out some of the senior teams. Ideally, we should be aiming to have two leagues of 16 with regional leagues below that. Promotion and relegation should be possible from top to bottom. This would allow ambitious teams an opportunity to get somewhere while removing some of the deadwood at the same time. I accept that there are lots of issues about whether or not Scottish football has enough decent teams to have a 16 team top league, or if teams could cope with giving up home ties against the OF, or if it take us back to the bad old days of the early 70s. I don't think that the SPL would be a worse league for having the top four teams in the 1st Division in it. People often say that there were too many meaningless games. Well, have a look at the attendances for some of the games in the SPL at the moment where games are supposedly meaningful. It would also give promoted teams a better chance at establishing themselves in the top flight without having to go on a ridiculous spending spree which eventually results in their downfall. As for giving up games against the OF, 6 teams would only be giving up 1 game each as they are in the bottom six. Much more damaging to these teams is the fact that the OF snap up any half decent players they have. In addition, if you only play the OF twice a season, surely teams will be more willing to have a real go at them - particularly at home. For some teams, 6 or 8 matches against the OF equates to 15+ or 20+ dropped points under the current system. As for the bad old days of the 70s, were they really that bad? Or to put it another way, were they any worse than a huge number of the seasons we have had since? You make a lot of good points J66, but as you say, anyone actually attempting to go down this route would be stopped at the first hurdle. We may have to wait years for teams to fold and even then they may just be resurrected like Airdrie United, or have their places taken by other teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blairdin Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Just nil, IMO. The blazers aren't interested in the good of the game in this country. They're only interested in what's good for them. There's so many well established clubs outwith the SPL teetering constantly on the edge of bankruptcy that something has to give. Maybe not anytime soon, but in my lifetime (currently 28). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flimsy Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 There is no need for any club to fold, these clubs all have supporters who love their club as much as we do. However, I do think they need to find an appropriate level. I don't think Scotland should have any more than a couple of dozen professional clubs, the remainder could easily continue to exist in a regional set-up with the opportunity to be promoted to the Scottish League. Somebody mentioned the four Angus clubs, their crowds DOUBLE when they play each other, surely it makes sense for them all to be playing in the same league? Many junior clubs are thriving in a similar set-up. For instance - 12 team Premier League (Rangers, Celtic, Dundee United, Motherwell, Aberdeen, Falkirk, Inverness CT, Hibs, Hearts, St Mirren, Kilmarnock, Dundee) 12 team League 2 (St Johnstone, Dunfermline Athletic, Hamilton, Livingston, Partick Thistle, Queen of the South, Clyde, Morton, Ayr United, Ross County, Airdrie United, Raith Rovers) 3 regional leagues (North, Central & East and South & West or something like that) with top team from each league getting promoted if they fulfil certain criteria. It'll never happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john brownlee Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Well IMHO there are two too many teams in scotland and they both come from gleski get rid of them, they do of course want to play else where. We had the chance years ago to bin them but yea of little faith and ambition hung on to their coat tails The scottish leagues would be far better of without them and their lowlife fans, it might even turn our leagues into a level playing field and a bit of honesty and fairness from the all those concerned with the running of scottish football Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 we do have the most people per head going to games each week in the world tho. Its a tough one... Cant really scrap teams due to the state of the national and club sides... possibly we should look at changing the league formats. Only due to the OF invective? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo66 Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Only due to the OF invective? Very true. 1% of Scotland's population would appear to attend Ibrox/Celtic Park every week. Of course, the truth is that a sizeable proportion of them don't actually come from Scotland at all ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickmaroon Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Stirling has 2 top league teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coppercrutch Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Stirling has only 1 top league team AFAIK, and that is Stirling Albion. East Stirlingshire play in Falkirk, at Firs park, a stones throw away from the old Brockville. Well you learn something new every day !! I just saw Stirling, then shire and put 2 and 2 together. Even with the factual inaccuracies the point remains the same !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambovambo Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Stenhousemuir is Larbert, ya ? Not a kick in the erchie from these others ... I think I went to see the Jambos there sometime .. in the late 70s ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambovambo Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Very true. 1% of Scotland's population would appear to attend Ibrox/Celtic Park every week. Of course, the truth is that a sizeable proportion of them don't actually come from Scotland at all ... But that's only a small proportion of the 5,000,000 'tic fans who went to that UEFA Cup final, ya? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lost in leith Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 England has 92 league teams and a population of approx 55 million - we have 42 league teams and a population of around 5 million Going by those figures I reckon we should have one professional league with 10 teams Not really a fair comparison. All of the English league teams and a fair number of the non-league teams are full time. There are teams in the Scottish First Division who are not full time. Agree with the suggestion that a pyrammid structure is the way forward. Having Junior teams in the Scottish Cup is a step in the right direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Berry Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 It is well documented that the reason scottish football is so far behind is because of its very limited fanbase. Is it? so far behind who? where is it documented? It never fails to surprise me how many times this "we have too many teams" nonsense is trotted out, we dont. The problem we have is that the SFL is a closed shop. As others have pointed out, the very lowest semi-professional club (all Junior clubs are semi-pro) should have the opportunity to climb to the top of the SPL, and crap SFL clubs such as East Stirling should be allowed to drop to a level they are comfortable at. Almost every other country in Europe has a Pyramid system, we dont. It's as simple as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Totally agree with the pyramid system. It's frustrating how reluctant the SFA are to change the structure. Teams like East Stirling really add nowt to Scottish Football. Maybe we do have to many clubs but what can we do about it now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboAl Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Is it? so far behind who? where is it documented? It never fails to surprise me how many times this "we have too many teams" nonsense is trotted out, we dont. The problem we have is that the SFL is a closed shop. As others have pointed out, the very lowest semi-professional club (all Junior clubs are semi-pro) should have the opportunity to climb to the top of the SPL, and crap SFL clubs such as East Stirling should be allowed to drop to a level they are comfortable at. Almost every other country in Europe has a Pyramid system, we dont. It's as simple as that. Basically it needs the SFA to set up a working party and make an analysis/report which would almost certainly come to the conclusion that we have too may clubs with grounds rapidly deteriorating in standard. The real problem understandably would be persuading the die-hard supporters of the smaller clubs that change is necessary so they would need to be well represented in any Inquiry. Hopefully they would understand but at least the following points need to be made to them 1. For the sake of football in Scotland we must change and become more professional in approach/outlook. 2. A Pyramid system is a strong option (as you suggest). 3. Health and Safety regulations need to be more rigorously observed with the fan/customer in mind. These points would at least jog them into thought but the bottom line is that we could not guarantee that all those who currently support the smaller club would support the new bigger club and so we might be simply end up ruining community life where it impacts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Berry Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 Report from last weeks Sunday Herald, sounds like change is being looked at: http://www.sundayherald.com/sport/shfootball/display.var.2014833.0.i_have_said_to_the_sfa_that_we_would_be_interested_in_looking_at_a_pyramid_structure.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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