"Aggressive stance"

[Scallywag]

There is no question that Hearts players are being victimised by the refs. It's now at the point that the club need to make a stand and start questioning why our players are being treated differently.

[Drylaw Hearts]

I think he was right to have a go a couple of years back. He had the balls to came out and said what a hell of a lot of folk think about the old-firm/the GFA/the press.

 

He probably thought he would have got a bit more support (especially from his own supporters) from others, but no it seems they were happy all along to be shafted by the GFA/Old-firm.

 

Talk is cheap Gambo.

 

If he really thought what he said then he should have followed it through.

 

He created a big wave and we (Hearts) are paying the consequences.

[DETTY29]

If adopting an "agressive stance" is worthy of a yellow, the whole Hearts team should be awarded them for merely walking on to the pitch. Zal clearly did nothing wrong and Miller ought to receive 2 retrospective red cards for the kick at Zal and then the attempted headbutt. As for Mackie, 2 dives in the box, no penalties (thankfully) but no bookings either, and, of course, no mention on the BBC.

 

No wonder Zal has to tell Brines how to do his job - not only is he a f****** p****, he's also a useless ****.

 

To prove objective and consistent in my stance that the game has gone soft and being ruined by ridiculous laws/guidelines, about the only things Brines got right was not sending off Miller or booking Mackie, although I wouldn't call it good refereeing.

 

Good referreeing would have been to

 

a) Tell Zaliukas to move away and advise Berra to make sure Zaliukas doesn't do something stupid when the corner is eventually taken.

 

Miller, enough is enough, next foul will be a yellow

 

c) Tell Mackie it's twice he's been spotted making the most of a tackle in the box and that unless his legs are clearly taken away from him, it's unlikely he'll get a decision for the rest of the game.

 

It really is that simple.

[Drylaw Hearts]

As you say (it does not matter if you agree or disagreed at the time) it was a couple of years ago........how long do we go on getting punished(=cheated)?

 

I've no idea.

 

However having a go at the media and Refs has done us no favours whatsoever.

 

Fact.

[Gambo]

Anyway......

 

VR in reality did nothing. He opened his big mouth, let his belly rumble but failed to follow it up with any real evidence.

 

If he had then maybe things would be different.

 

Maybe because he was shot down and targeted by the press and his own supporters. Other teams kept a silence hoping he was going to do all their dirty work. Maybe because of that he did not think that is what scottish football wanted, a level playing field.

 

Maybe if he had got backing from others including some of his own supporters (some of whom are moaning about decisions now) then things may have been different.

[Gambo]

I've no idea.

 

However having a go at the media and Refs has done us no favours whatsoever.

 

Fact.

 

And not having a real rant at them for the last couple of years has worked wonders too.:xmaseye:

[rossmaroon]

Are the BBC not supposed to be impartial ?

 

They're clearly not.

 

Well the Exec Producer of the programme (David Harran) is a fervent Jambo and had a major hand in the excellent documentary on McRae's Battalion. He actually talks very highly of Pat Nevin; although I believe Mr Gordon does not exactly love Hearts Football Club!

[rudi]

Can someone correct me but it appears that having an "aggressive stance" should lead to at least a yellow if not a red card, according to Pat Nevin.

 

If that was the case then every game would end as a 5-a-side game you slavering *****.

 

PS just seen "good honest Scotch Laddie" c/o John Hughes just about murder a Utd. player and only get a booking.

 

B******s.

 

Watch other games and you will see that more often than not when two players square up to one another it results in a yellow card each,so for that he's talking absolute sence.

 

As for it being a straigt red, I think Zal has been poorly treated,but he should know by now not to react in such a manor.

 

Hopefully the SFA committee will have a good look at it and change it to a yellow(if possible) and give Miller a ban for his attempted head butt on Zal.

[Drylaw Hearts]

Maybe because he was shot down and targeted by the press and his own supporters. Other teams kept a silence hoping he was going to do all their dirty work. Maybe because of that he did not think that is what scottish football wanted, a level playing field.

 

Maybe if he had got backing from others including some of his own supporters (some of whom are moaning about decisions now) then things may have been different.

 

He made the claims, not any other club, and he should have been big enough to follow them through.

 

Plenty of Hearts fans did back him and what did he do to follow up ?

 

Nowt.

 

He went back to Lithuania to watch FBK Kaunas win a League which is most probabaly more currupt than the one he was actaully complaining about.

[Gambo]

Talk is cheap Gambo.

 

If he really thought what he said then he should have followed it through.

 

He created a big wave and we (Hearts) are paying the consequences.

 

See post no 55 for answers to above.

 

 

Irrespective of what VR may have said in the past or what Miko may have done in the past, none of that should matter when a referee takes to the field to referee one of our games. If it does then that equates to cheating imo.

 

Bringing out old VR stories etc is just looking for excuses for poor refereeing, it should have nothing to do with it wether that is the way of life or not.

 

Level playing field from the referee is all we can ask for when we take to the pitch.

 

Answer this, On Saturday, do you think it will be acceptable for the referee to be more harsh on our players as oppossed to Hibs players due to comments VR made 2 years ago?

[rudi]

He made the claims, not any other club, and he should have been big enough to follow them through.

 

Plenty of Hearts fans did back him and what did he do to follow up ?

 

Nowt.

 

He went back to Lithuania to watch FBK Kaunas win a League which is most probabaly more currupt than the one he was actaully complaining about.

 

Vlad is a glory hunter,FACT.

[Drylaw Hearts]

And not having a real rant at them for the last couple of years has worked wonders too.:xmaseye:

 

We've become an easy target.

 

Those who backed the rants must surely be wishing now he'd kept quiet.

[Gambo]

He made the claims, not any other club, and he should have been big enough to follow them through.

 

Plenty of Hearts fans did back him and what did he do to follow up ?

 

Nowt.

 

He went back to Lithuania to watch FBK Kaunas win a League which is most probabaly more currupt than the one he was actaully complaining about.

 

Going over old ground here (its been done to death, and on this thread also).

 

But.................Does Vlad referee our games?

[rudi]

Hearts lose one game and it's all the SFA/refs fault, AGAIN.

 

 

I've read papers,listened to the radio reports,watched the highlights,read on this very website, all of them saying Hearts were not good enough,end of story,it's not anyone elses fault.

[David Brent]

Watch other games and you will see that more often than not when two players square up to one another it results in a yellow card each,so for that he's talking absolute sence.

 

As for it being a straigt red, I think Zal has been poorly treated,but he should know by now not to react in such a manor.

 

Hopefully the SFA committee will have a good look at it and change it to a yellow(if possible) and give Miller a ban for his attempted head butt on Zal.

 

What else could Zaliukas have done? When Brines gave him his first yellow card, he was effectively telling Zal that he better not make any more complaints or he'd be off for dissent.

When Lee Millers boot nearly took Zal's head off it is only natural for the player to turn around to see who had been so reckless. Miller was the aggressor by stepping into Zal's "space". If Miller hadn't been looking for trouble, he would simply have backed off and apologised - as most decent players would do.

 

[gorgie rd eh11]

I've no idea.

 

However having a go at the media and Refs has done us no favours whatsoever.

 

Fact.

 

 

 

At least you're now admitting that they do cheat, because whatever their reasons, that is what it is.

[Gambo]

We've become an easy target.

 

Those who backed the rants must surely be wishing now he'd kept quiet.

 

A target that you and others think is acceptable?

 

I wish he did follow up, but with the lack of support he received, he probably thinks we have got the (corrupt) game we all deserve (and in some cases 'want').

 

We all (everyone apart from the GFA and OF) wanted someone to come out and tell it the way it was, only when it happened people 5 hat themselves and went back into their comfort zone imo.

[Drylaw Hearts]

See post no 55 for answers to above.

 

 

Irrespective of what VR may have said in the past or what Miko may have done in the past, none of that should matter when a referee takes to the field to referee one of our games. If it does then that equates to cheating imo.

 

Bringing out old VR stories etc is just looking for excuses for poor refereeing, it should have nothing to do with it wether that is the way of life or not.

 

Level playing field from the referee is all we can ask for when we take to the pitch.

 

Answer this, On Saturday, do you think it will be acceptable for the referee to be more harsh on our players as oppossed to Hibs players due to comments VR made 2 years ago?

 

It's not acceptable on any level and I'm not saying it's right - what I am saying is that our relationship with the Media and Refs etc was never like this until VR let rip.

 

He either has the balls to folllow it up in a sensible manner or we have to slowly rebuild our relationship with both.

 

There is no doubt many of the people in both of these professions hold grudges against us.

 

Refs aren't robots and they're brain works exactly the same as your's and mine's and if there is something you really don't like then it is going to cloud your judgement.

 

We aren't the only team that suffers from this though.

[Drew Busby !]

VR was and is an erse on all these matters. True.

 

However the governing body - and it's officials - are meant to be the one "constant" in all of this, dealing with all clubs and all players with 100% equanimity. They're meant to be above playing out petty revenges. The fact that they're indulging in exactly this kind of behaviour (whether it's from the top or from a gaggle of referees getting together to form a kangaroo court) is of hugely greater concern than VR's previous on this.

 

VR has now shut the pheck-up. When will the SFA/media modify their "response" to anything in maroon ? Not any time soon it appears.

[Gambo]

Hearts lose one game and it's all the SFA/refs fault, AGAIN.

 

 

I've read papers,listened to the radio reports,watched the highlights,read on this very website, all of them saying Hearts were not good enough,end of story,it's not anyone elses fault.

 

Hearts lose a game, Hearts fans stick up for the club and Rudi fails to read posts AGAIN.

 

Show me a post where the SFA/Ref is solely blamed for the defeat.

[Drylaw Hearts]

A target that you and others think is acceptable?

 

I wish he did follow up, but with the lack of support he received, he probably thinks we have got the (corrupt) game we all deserve (and in some cases 'want').

 

We all (everyone apart from the GFA and OF) wanted someone to come out and tell it the way it was, only when it happened people 5 hat themselves and went back into their comfort zone imo.

 

I've posted several times throughout this thread that I don't think it's right.

 

Translated - I don't think it's acceptable.

 

But as the main man didn't have the balls to continue with his claims why should we back him ?

 

He dropped his claims like stone when he continued to get fined.

 

He would have been better spending the money on a good lawyer and putting together a case to be presented to the European Courts.

[rudi]

What else could Zaliukas have done? When Brines gave him his first yellow card, he was effectively telling Zal that he better not make any more complaints or he'd be off for dissent.When Lee Millers boot nearly took Zal's head off it is only natural for the player to turn around to see who had been so reckless. Miller was the aggressor by stepping into Zal's "space". If Miller hadn't been looking for trouble, he would simply have backed off and apologised - as most decent players would do.

 

 

No he didn't,or he would have sent him packing for shouting at him that Mackie had dived.

 

If Brines was such a cheat,as some put it,surly he would have sent him off quicker and gave the sheep a penalty.

 

I have no doubt Brines got the ordering off totally wrong,or sould I say the straight red card,yes Miller should have went but after his reaction Zal should have got a second yellow.

 

Zal should be one of the last to complain about being roughed up as he is no angel himself.

 

And ,watch it again Miller did back off,Zal walked towards him in quite an aggressive manor(just think if someone walked up to you in a boozer that way)then Miller DID stick his head in Zals face,as I say Miller does deserve to be punished for his actions.

[Gambo]

It's not acceptable

 

That is all i have been trying to say.

 

Bringing VR and his comments into it just clouds the fact that at the end of the day it is not acceptable.

[Dirk Diggler]

 

 

Irrespective of what VR may have said in the past or what Miko may have done in the past, none of that should matter when a referee takes to the field to referee one of our games. If it does then that equates to cheating imo.

 

Bringing out old VR stories etc is just looking for excuses for poor refereeing, it should have nothing to do with it wether that is the way of life or not.

 

Level playing field from the referee is all we can ask for when we take to the pitch.

 

 

[Gambo]

But as the main man didn't have the balls to continue with his claims why should we back him ? The fans and the media and Scottish Football told him to shut up, we don't want to hear. How dare an outsider come in and try and make our game a level playing field.

 

He dropped his claims like stone when he continued to get fined. Or he dropped the claims when he found out there was little support.?

 

.

 

:xmasgrin:

[Drylaw Hearts]

That is all i have been trying to say.

 

Bringing VR and his comments into it just clouds the fact that at the end of the day it is not acceptable.

 

And it's what I've been saying also.

 

However.....

 

I am at least trying to understand why this anti-Hearts attitude from the media and some Refs has come from.

 

If someone tried to humiliate me publically I'd probably take a different view of them also.

[Victorian]

I've posted several times throughout this thread that I don't think it's right.

 

Translated - I don't think it's acceptable.

 

But as the main man didn't have the balls to continue with his claims why should we back him ?

 

He dropped his claims like stone when he continued to get fined.

 

He would have been better spending the money on a good lawyer and putting together a case to be presented to the European Courts.

 

so first you use vlad's rants as the reason why we are continually shafted by refs and now you seem to claim he should have carried on with the rants?

[gorgie rd eh11]

No he didn't,or he would have sent him packing for shouting at him that Mackie had dived.

 

If Brines was such a cheat,as some put it,surly he would have sent him off quicker and gave the sheep a penalty.

 

I have no doubt Brines got the ordering off totally wrong,or sould I say the straight red card,yes Miller should have went but after his reaction Zal should have got a second yellow.

 

Zal should be one of the last to complain about being roughed up as he is no angel himself.

 

And ,watch it again Miller did back off,Zal walked towards him in quite an aggressive manor(just think if someone walked up to you in a boozer that way)then Miller DID stick his head in Zals face,as I say Miller does deserve to be punished for his actions.

 

 

 

 

So it's proof brines is not a cheat because he didn't wrongly send him off earlier:xmascrazy:

[rudi]

VR was and is an erse on all these matters. True.

 

However the governing body - and it's officials - are meant to be the one "constant" in all of this, dealing with all clubs and all players with 100% equanimity. They're meant to be above playing out petty revenges. The fact that they're indulging in exactly this kind of behaviour (whether it's from the top or from a gaggle of referees getting together to form a kangaroo court) is of hugely greater concern than VR's previous on this.

 

VR has now shut the pheck-up. When will the SFA/media modify their "response" to anything in maroon ? Not any time soon it appears.

 

Almost every time we appeal.

[Drylaw Hearts]

:xmasgrin:

 

The fans and the media and Scottish Football told him to shut up, we don't want to hear. How dare an outsider come in and try and make our game a level playing field.

 

He made it a more level playing field by employing GB and letting him build a great football team.

 

He ruined that bit himself. I don't recall one dodgy decision during the first 1/2 of that season.

 

Or he dropped the claims when he found out there was little support?

 

Or he dropped the claims when he realised he could prove nothing ?

[David Brent]

No he didn't,or he would have sent him packing for shouting at him that Mackie had dived.

 

If Brines was such a cheat,as some put it,surly he would have sent him off quicker and gave the sheep a penalty.

 

I have no doubt Brines got the ordering off totally wrong,or sould I say the straight red card,yes Miller should have went but after his reaction Zal should have got a second yellow.

 

Zal should be one of the last to complain about being roughed up as he is no angel himself.

 

And ,watch it again Miller did back off,Zal walked towards him in quite an aggressive manor(just think if someone walked up to you in a boozer that way)then Miller DID stick his head in Zals face,as I say Miller does deserve to be punished for his actions.

 

This thread is about the so-called "aggressive stance" inferred by Pat Nevin on the BBC. I think Nevins point is absolute b0110ks and if someone had tried to take my head off with his boot, I'd be within my rights to demand an apology.

 

Nevin>> :107years:

[rudi]

So it's proof brines is not a cheat because he didn't wrongly send him off earlier:xmascrazy:

 

He's just a really bad ref,that is about the size of it,he has a bit of a history of being a bit OTT when things go a bit pear shaped.

 

FWIW I would hut him altogether as a far as being a ref.

[Gambo]

And it's what I've been saying also.

 

However.....

 

I am at least trying to understand why this anti-Hearts attitude from the media and some Refs has come from.

.

 

No one is doubting this, what we are questioning is wether this justifies the referee going into our games with an anti Hearts attitude

 

We seem to be in agreement.

[rudi]

This thread is about the so-called "aggressive stance" inferred by Pat Nevin on the BBC. I think Nevins point is absolute b0110ks and if someone had tried to take my head off with his boot, I'd be within my rights to demand an apology.

 

Nevin>> :107years:

 

No it's not,as I have said,watch other games,almost every time two players square up it results in a yellow card each,or if it becomes a bit more heated,a red each.

 

Once again Brines got it totally WRONG,Zal= yellow,Miller= red.

 

As for Zal just turning round and looking who kicked him,come on,he went for him in what looked very like an aggressive manor,as I say someone coming at you like that in a boozer.

[BervieJambo]

To prove objective and consistent in my stance that the game has gone soft and being ruined by ridiculous laws/guidelines, about the only things Brines got right was not sending off Miller or booking Mackie, although I wouldn't call it good refereeing.

 

Good referreeing would have been to

 

a) Tell Zaliukas to move away and advise Berra to make sure Zaliukas doesn't do something stupid when the corner is eventually taken.

 

Miller, enough is enough, next foul will be a yellow

 

c) Tell Mackie it's twice he's been spotted making the most of a tackle in the box and that unless his legs are clearly taken away from him, it's unlikely he'll get a decision for the rest of the game.

 

It really is that simple.

 

Detty, I would agree on all points, except on a question of consistency. Zal was booked for 'unsporting behaviour', hence the same punishment should befit Mackie for his theatrics. Brines made his bed with two ridiculously soft bookings for Berra & Zal (& arguably for Mackie too) early on, so he must remain consistent throughout the game for both teams, which he did not.

 

Personally, I would agree wholeheartedly with you on the game going soft, and the only incident worthy of any card on Saturday was a yellow for Miller (where he got away scot-free). However, good refereeing must include a level of consistency & impartiality, which was not shown, and sadly is rarely shown in Scottish football.

[Dirk Diggler]

Looks like Zaliukas could be free to play on Sat.

 

http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/Hearts-lodge-appeal-against-Zaliukas.4830064.jp

 

Having seen the incident numerous times on TV, it is the correct decision from Hearts IMO.

[rudi]

Looks like Zaliukas could be free to play on Sat.

 

http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/Hearts-lodge-appeal-against-Zaliukas.4830064.jp

 

Having seen the incident numerous times on TV, it is the correct decision from Hearts IMO.

 

They would be daft not to,hopefully they will change it to a yellow and give Miller a ban.

[Gambo]

They would be daft not to,hopefully they will change it to a yellow and give Miller a ban.

 

For what? Brines straight red carded him for an alleged headbutt which did not happen.

 

That is what Hearts are appealing against.

 

They can give out red cards in Millers case after games using tv evidence, but i don't think they can dish out 'yellows'. If they do 'downgrade', they will be doing it for a different offence which is wrong.

 

If the ref had red carded him for an aggressive stance and not the head butt that he motioned he was sending him off for then they could have deemed the aggressive stance not worthy of a red and down graded to a yellow. It is clear to all that Brines motioned that he was sent off for a head butt and this did not happen.

 

Red card recinded, no yellow issued and a red card to Miller )if Brines thought Zal had headbutted and merited a red for it then the same should apply to Miller) should be the outcome.

[rudi]

For what? Brines straight red carded him for an alleged headbutt which did not happen.

 

That is what Hearts are appealing against.

 

They can give out red cards in Millers case after games using tv evidence, but i don't think they can dish out 'yellows'. If they do 'downgrade', they will be doing it for a different offence which is wrong.

 

Okay,maybe they can't "down grade" as you say,but you can bet your arse that if it was say Caldwell or someone like that,that moved towards a Hearts player like that you would be wanting a yellow card dished out to them.

 

Fact is Zal should know better than to react in situations like that by now,he made it very easy for the ref to send him off,red card or second yellow.

[Jambo66]

For what? Brines straight red carded him for an alleged headbutt which did not happen.

 

That is what Hearts are appealing against.

 

They can give out red cards in Millers case after games using tv evidence, but i don't think they can dish out 'yellows'. If they do 'downgrade', they will be doing it for a different offence which is wrong.

 

If the ref had red carded him for an aggressive stance and not the head butt that he motioned he was sending him off for then they could have deemed the aggressive stance not worthy of a red and down graded to a yellow. It is clear to all that Brines motioned that he was sent off for a head butt and this did not happen.

 

Red card recinded, no yellow issued and a red card to Miller )if Brines thought Zal had headbutted and merited a red for it then the same should apply to Miller) should be the outcome.

 

I think this is the nub of the whole matter. It is quite clear that Zal was given a straight red card for head butting. The video evidence shows that he did not head butt anyone. As a result, there should be no question of a downgrading of the card to yellow. In a court of law, the appeal would result in an acquittal. Sadly, in this case, I fear it will result in the lesser punishment which will still result in a ban.

[Boof]

I'm so disillusioned with any thoughts of fairness regarding the SFA that I believe they'll do whatever they bloody well want to show their 'star' referee in as good a light as possible.

[Deevers]

All these pieces of evidence that jouno's and Refs etc are against are proof that we really have become public enemy No.1.

 

Why ?

 

IMO........

 

It's because VR had a go at all and sundry a couple of years back. There really was no need for that and we're now paying the consequences.

 

It may not be right but if you upset people with a platform like they have, then expect a bit of retaliation.

 

Things were never, ever this bad prior to those outburts.

 

Whilst getting back at Vlad may be at the root of some of this - I still believe that the Andy Davis affair is the real reason for a lot of this. There is a cadre of west coast officials who take every opportunity they can to work in right up us. Take a look at our sending off count since the Davis affair and compare it to the previous season - it makes very interesting reading.

 

There is little doubt that we are getting "special treatment". What is so sinister in all of this is the fact that the governing body is well aware of what is going on and is just standing back and allowing it to happen.

[Seymour M Hersh]

I wish you'd used that statement a couple of years ago !!

 

 

Anyway......

 

VR in reality did nothing. He opened his big mouth, let his belly rumble but failed to follow it up with any real evidence.

 

If he had then maybe things would be different.

 

Clearly hit a nerve though. Hence the weekly petty insults ever since. Also he's not wrong is he? Perhaps the delivery could have been of a more subtle nature.

[DETTY29]

Watch other games and you will see that more often than not when two players square up to one another it results in a yellow card each,so for that he's talking absolute sence.

 

As for it being a straigt red, I think Zal has been poorly treated,but he should know by now not to react in such a manor.

 

Hopefully the SFA committee will have a good look at it and change it to a yellow(if possible) and give Miller a ban for his attempted head butt on Zal.

 

Sorry Rudi,

 

Another stupid guideline that cannot be officiated consistently, fairly and objectively. So from now on every time a player gets booked, wait half an hour or so and get one of your players wh has not been booked to go head to head. Result, sendings off.

 

Sad thing is, fans, players and media alike are bought now into this cr@p.