Inferiority, does it still exist?

[Debut 4]

I`m not getting carried away because of our form. I also know Hearts are still unpredictable and have it all to prove over the long term.

 

But to give them the benefit of the doubt just now, Hearts are on form and we should be right behind them on Saturday and believe they can come away with something.

 

Why? Because i really think on the day you can pump the OF if your workrate matches them and you have enough quality and intelligence in the team to complement that.

 

But still i wonder if Hearts(but not just us, the rest of the SPL) still has doubts the minute the teambus enters the Weege. And it angers me greatly. It angers me that the likes of diddy Caldwell gets to strutt about the park, Wilson, an ordinary full back never gets put under enough pressure, Brown, overated to the max get`s time and space when it`s clear he doesn`t have the real genuine quality on the ball under pressure.

 

All in all i just don`t want to read about Hearts crumbling with a whimper and not puting up a tremendous battle on Saturday. There`s something for the players to hang onto just now and i really hope they use that as inspiration.

 

Maybe Celtic have the odd player that is better than the quality we have but collectively the OF are no were near as good as they were years ago when you knew they were head and shoulders above.

 

All the same, that doesn`t excuse spineless performances which i hope we don`t witness at the weekend. The last game v Celtic should inspire the players to do so much better.

 

MON THE HEARTS

[bighusref]

There have been three stages of Hearts vs the Glasgow two.

 

A short time where we could beat the relatively often (not a large time, but I am sure that LH would be able to clarify)

A larger time where we were very able to win once or twice a season against them.

An even larger time where a draw against them is treated like a good result.

 

I often feel that jumping from the low to the high is over ambitious. Until we can pretty much look at a season and say we will beat each of them once a season, I will not go into games against them (particularly at their gaff) expecting anything. My stance is any point against the Glasgow two on their home patch is a bonus, counting on any more is folly IMO.

[redjambo]

There have been three stages of Hearts vs the Glasgow two.

 

A short time where we could beat the relatively often (not a large time, but I am sure that LH would be able to clarify)

A larger time where we were very able to win once or twice a season against them.

An even larger time where a draw against them is treated like a good result.

 

I often feel that jumping from the low to the high is over ambitious. Until we can pretty much look at a season and say we will beat each of them once a season, I will not go into games against them (particularly at their gaff) expecting anything. My stance is any point against the Glasgow two on their home patch is a bonus, counting on any more is folly IMO.

 

Well I hope that the players don't have the same attitude because that's just the sort of thinking that will result in us being also-rans. We have got to really believe in ourselves, take the game to them, and also hurt like hell if we lose, rather than just accepting defeat.

[djf]

I have to agree. I'd be embarrassed to be a professional footballer and cower from the likes of Caldwell, McDonald, Robson and Wilson.

 

Even their genuine quality players are inconsistent, hence why they are playing in the backwater that is the SPL.

[Say What Again]

Thread title: 'Inferiority, does it still exist?'

 

 

HIBS

 

DOT

 

NET

 

FACT

[Jam Tarts 1874]

As long as we start the game at the same tempo as we did against Rangers I am sure we will do OK. There will be alot of space at Celtic Park for our more talented players to do their stuff.

[Guest JamboRobbo]

I think the inferiority will exist until the day when we can say no to them whenever they come to buy our best players.

[bighusref]

Well I hope that the players don't have the same attitude because that's just the sort of thinking that will result in us being also-rans. We have got to really believe in ourselves, take the game to them, and also hurt like hell if we lose, rather than just accepting defeat.

 

I don't disagree. However I am a fan, I have no impact on how we do there. If we are talking specifically about how our players perceive other teams, then we should fear nobody including Real Madrid and Barcelona. R@ng*rs and C*lt!c would be far down the list tbh.

[Cut The Crap]

Well I hope that the players don't have the same attitude because that's just the sort of thinking that will result in us being also-rans. We have got to really believe in ourselves, take the game to them, and also hurt like hell if we lose, rather than just accepting defeat.

 

That's fair enough, but given that we have already lost at Falkirk and been horsed at Tannadice this season, I'd say a point tomorrow would be a bonus!

[redjambo]

That's fair enough, but given that we have already lost at Falkirk and been horsed at Tannadice this season, I'd say a point tomorrow would be a bonus!

 

:xmasgrin: Now if you were to say that you would be devastated if we got anything less than 3 points, but after the match, after a hard game and a draw you were to turn round and say "Hey, that was ok, considering", then that would be fine. All the better if that attitude permeated throughout the club from fans to players to backroom staff... If you set your sights low then horsings is all you'll get.

[redjambo]

I don't disagree. However I am a fan, I have no impact on how we do there. If we are talking specifically about how our players perceive other teams, then we should fear nobody including Real Madrid and Barcelona. R@ng*rs and C*lt!c would be far down the list tbh.

 

Be that butterfly. :xmasbabe:

[Guest JamboRobbo]

If you set your sights low then horsings is all you'll get.

 

don't disagree, but at the same time, if you set your sights too high, you'll only be dissapointed all the time.....

[redjambo]

don't disagree, but at the same time, if you set your sights too high, you'll only be dissapointed all the time.....

 

The idea is never to be disappointed. In the end it's all about playing to our maximum ability - it's the only factor we have full control of. And we won't do that if we aim low.

[Deevers]

The Inferiority Complex will continue while the match officials continue to give all the fifty/fifty decisions the way of Celtic (or Rangers) in these games.It must be frustrating for players when you go to these venues and play well and are the victim of blatant cheating by the referee or linesmen which costs you the game. This must have a knock on effect on your confidence and the way you approach games there. I've seen this happen over many years right back to the early sixties.

[redjambo]

The Inferiority Complex will continue while the match officials continue to give all the fifty/fifty decisions the way of Celtic (or Rangers) in these games.It must be frustrating for players when you go to these venues and play well and are the victim of blatant cheating by the referee or linesmen which costs you the game. This must have a knock on effect on your confidence and the way you approach games there. I've seen this happen over many years right back to the early sixties.

 

The thing is that the referees have done their job so well in this respect over the years that psychologically, in knowing that they can unfairly influence the game, we're less motivated as a result, whether the referee does influence the result or not. We're almost waiting for something to happen. And that is a bad thing.

 

However with the whole subject of referee bias in the spotlight, including Levein's outburst last year, referees in OF games appear, to me anyway, to be more nervous about bowing to the pressures exerted by the OF and the fans. So we have to put the referee completely out of our mind, except in ensuring that the players have it drummed in to them not to do stupid things that could be pounced upon. Not too difficult a deal.

[Cut The Crap]

:xmasgrin: Now if you were to say that you would be devastated if we got anything less than 3 points, but after the match, after a hard game and a draw you were to turn round and say "Hey, that was ok, considering", then that would be fine. All the better if that attitude permeated throughout the club from fans to players to backroom staff... If you set your sights low then horsings is all you'll get.

 

A point illustrated all too clearly when we played Celtic at Tynecastle.

 

Wherever my sights are set is irrelevant. It's the manager and players who actually determine what happens.

[redjambo]

A point illustrated all too clearly when we played Celtic at Tynecastle.

 

Wherever my sights are set is irrelevant. It's the manager and players who actually determine what happens.

 

We all determine it. If the fans don't have that 100% belief and confidence, above all in the ground where the players can sense it, but also in the forums, in the streets etc., then it won't permeate through to the playing staff.

[Deevers]

A point illustrated all too clearly when we played Celtic at Tynecastle.

 

Wherever my sights are set is irrelevant. It's the manager and players who actually determine what happens.

 

Exactly - we looked a beaten side right from the off. Completely different in the Rangers game however. It is different however at both Parkhead and Ibrox. You've only got to look at the number of really dodgy decisions that have gone Celtics way in particular this season especially at Darkheid.

Only iron will and complete self belief by the players can overcome these obstacles to success there. Getting a result there would be a great boost to morale for everyone.

[redjambo]

Exactly - we looked a beaten side right from the off. Completely different in the Rangers game however. It is different however at both Parkhead and Ibrox. You've only got to look at the number of really dodgy decisions that have gone Celtics way in particular this season especially at Darkheid.

Only iron will and complete self belief by the players can overcome these obstacles to success there. Getting a result there would be a great boost to morale for everyone.

 

For would, read will. A wee while ago, I remember reading a quote from a Hearts player, not long at the club if I remember correctly, who was talking about referee bias (not that he'd seen but that he expected) and I remember thinking "There's no hope for us if the whole team think like that. We'll be defeated every time before we've even started!".

 

All talk like that should be verboten at the club. The players should be motivated to play to the best of their abilities, believe in those abilities, taught how to play the ref (each ref is different) and told that if there is any dodgy incident then just to play on, in fact play harder, and that the club will take any incident up with the SFA and/or the media after the game. Talking in generalities about "dodgy decisions" does us no good at all.

[bighusref]

Be that butterfly. :xmasbabe:

 

See that is the thing, no matter how much I want it, and on match day I REALLY want it, it does not affect the way things go. For example, I really, really, REALLY wanted us to win those two infamous cup games at Easter Road (Motherwell and Hibs) that didn't work. I really, really, REALLY wanted us to win at Ibrox a few years back, even going so far as to put cash on Robertson scoring twice to break his record that day, and we got beat.

 

I see where you are coming from, however I have stopped believing I have an influence on the results of my football team.

 

Loving the wee look you gave me though!

[Guest JamboRobbo]

See that is the thing, no matter how much I want it, and on match day I REALLY want it, it does not affect the way things go. For example, I really, really, REALLY wanted us to win those two infamous cup games at Easter Road (Motherwell and Hibs) that didn't work. I really, really, REALLY wanted us to win at Ibrox a few years back, even going so far as to put cash on Robertson scoring twice to break his record that day, and we got beat.

 

I see where you are coming from, however I have stopped believing I have an influence on the results of my football team.

 

Loving the wee look you gave me though!

 

You mean to tell me that if I shout loud enough and "get right behind the team", it WON'T turn Mole into a striker? I'm devastated.

 

Next you'll be telling me there is no santa claus. :xmasgrin:

[redjambo]

See that is the thing, no matter how much I want it, and on match day I REALLY want it, it does not affect the way things go. For example, I really, really, REALLY wanted us to win those two infamous cup games at Easter Road (Motherwell and Hibs) that didn't work. I really, really, REALLY wanted us to win at Ibrox a few years back, even going so far as to put cash on Robertson scoring twice to break his record that day, and we got beat.

 

I see where you are coming from, however I have stopped believing I have an influence on the results of my football team.

 

Loving the wee look you gave me though!

 

In that case, between you and me, I'm a very tidy 5 foot 10 blonde supermodel. I hope you never meet me for real mind. :xmasbabe:

 

Hopefully you're not the only one who's stopped believing you can influence Heart's results. We're all, fans, players, management, backroom staff etc., part of the one gigantic inter-connected system called "Heart of Mid Lothian". We all do influence each other.

[redjambo]

You mean to tell me that if I shout loud enough and "get right behind the team", it WON'T turn Mole into a striker? I'm devastated.

 

Next you'll be telling me there is no santa claus. :xmasgrin:

 

Of course there is. But there's no sanity clause. :xmasgrin:

[bighusref]

In that case, between you and me, I'm a very tidy 5 foot 10 blonde supermodel. I hope you never meet me for real mind. :xmasbabe:

 

 

Hopefully you're not the only one who's stopped believing you can influence Heart's results. We're all, fans, players, management, backroom staff etc., part of the one gigantic inter-connected system called "Heart of Mid Lothian". We all do influence each other.

 

Pie in the sky indulgence I am afraid. Matchday, I am your huckleberry for that, asking me on a Friday morning, you will get a more sober and considered response.

[redjambo]

 

 

 

Pie in the sky indulgence I am afraid. Matchday, I am your huckleberry for that, asking me on a Friday morning, you will get a more sober and considered response.

 

:xmasgrin: Sorry, I see how that read now. I only said that I hoped that we would never meet because if we did you would realise that I in no way meet the description I gave of myself, and that includes my sex. I'm sure if I were a very tidy 5 foot 10 blond supermodel then I would be banging your door down to get to you. :xmasbabe:

 

Inter-connectedness. Do you think the players never read JKB? Or talk to anyone who has? Or talk to anyone who has talked to anyone who has? Anything you say has an influence.

[Miller Jambo 60]

I`m not getting carried away because of our form. I also know Hearts are still unpredictable and have it all to prove over the long term.

 

But to give them the benefit of the doubt just now, Hearts are on form and we should be right behind them on Saturday and believe they can come away with something.

 

Why? Because i really think on the day you can pump the OF if your workrate matches them and you have enough quality and intelligence in the team to complement that.

 

But still i wonder if Hearts(but not just us, the rest of the SPL) still has doubts the minute the teambus enters the Weege. And it angers me greatly. It angers me that the likes of diddy Caldwell gets to strutt about the park, Wilson, an ordinary full back never gets put under enough pressure, Brown, overated to the max get`s time and space when it`s clear he doesn`t have the real genuine quality on the ball under pressure.

 

All in all i just don`t want to read about Hearts crumbling with a whimper and not puting up a tremendous battle on Saturday. There`s something for the players to hang onto just now and i really hope they use that as inspiration.

 

Maybe Celtic have the odd player that is better than the quality we have but collectively the OF are no were near as good as they were years ago when you knew they were head and shoulders above.

 

All the same, that doesn`t excuse spineless performances which i hope we don`t witness at the weekend. The last game v Celtic should inspire the players to do so much better.

 

MON THE HEARTS

 

Good post mate,we will beat them in midfield.

and we have a better keeper.

[moonraker]

I have to agree. I'd be embarrassed to be a professional footballer and cower from the likes of Caldwell, McDonald, Robson and Wilson.

 

Even their genuine quality players are inconsistent, hence why they are playing in the backwater that is the SPL.

 

What? Other than the fact that Glasgow is in Scotland?:xmashappy:

[redjambo]

[/b]

 

What? Other than the fact that Glasgow is in Scotland?:xmashappy:

 

I think he meant the OF's players, not the OF themselves. :xmasgrin: If the players were as good as they are hyped up to be then they'd be playing in better leagues. Which is a fair point.

[Guest JamboRobbo]

I think he meant the OF's players, not the OF themselves. :xmasgrin: If the players were as good as they are hyped up to be then they'd be playing in better leagues. Which is a fair point.

 

Equally, if any of our players actually start playing consistantly as well as or better than the OF players, the OF can pretty much sign them. (e.g. Hartley or McCann. CG being the exception which proves the rule).

[CBjambo]

I`m not getting carried away because of our form. I also know Hearts are still unpredictable and have it all to prove over the long term.

 

But to give them the benefit of the doubt just now, Hearts are on form and we should be right behind them on Saturday and believe they can come away with something.

 

Why? Because i really think on the day you can pump the OF if your workrate matches them and you have enough quality and intelligence in the team to complement that.

 

But still i wonder if Hearts(but not just us, the rest of the SPL) still has doubts the minute the teambus enters the Weege. And it angers me greatly. It angers me that the likes of diddy Caldwell gets to strutt about the park, Wilson, an ordinary full back never gets put under enough pressure, Brown, overated to the max get`s time and space when it`s clear he doesn`t have the real genuine quality on the ball under pressure.

 

All in all i just don`t want to read about Hearts crumbling with a whimper and not puting up a tremendous battle on Saturday. There`s something for the players to hang onto just now and i really hope they use that as inspiration.

 

Maybe Celtic have the odd player that is better than the quality we have but collectively the OF are no were near as good as they were years ago when you knew they were head and shoulders above.

 

All the same, that doesn`t excuse spineless performances which i hope we don`t witness at the weekend. The last game v Celtic should inspire the players to do so much better.

 

MON THE HEARTS

 

Christ!

 

Is that your idea of a pep talk for the lads??!

[redjambo]

Equally, if any of our players actually start playing consistantly as well as or better than the OF players, the OF can pretty much sign them. (e.g. Hartley or McCann. CG being the exception which proves the rule).

 

Only if we want to sell them to the OF of course. The breeze also seems to be changing direction these days. I think players are starting to realise that, apart from the financial aspect, moving to the OF isn't exactly the pot of gold it's portrayed to be.

[Guest JamboRobbo]

Only if we want to sell them to the OF of course.

The breeze also seems to be changing direction these days. I think players are starting to realise that, apart from the financial aspect, moving to the OF isn't exactly the pot of gold it's portrayed to be.

 

Come on mate. Do you actually believe that? Money talks. Always has, always will.

[redjambo]

Come on mate. Do you actually believe that? Money talks. Always has, always will.

 

Do you think that a player, when given the choice between being paid well and sitting on the bench as a bit-player for the squad, or being paid less well but being able to play as a first team regular, or at least a squad regular, will always opt for the former?

 

Anyway, the land of opportunity is in dem dar hills in the south now, not the OF.

[Guest JamboRobbo]

Do you think that a player, when given the choice between being paid well and sitting on the bench as a bit-player for the squad, or being paid less well but being able to play as a first team regular, or at least a squad regular, will always opt for the former?

 

Not always, no. As I said, CG is the exception which proves the rule. But almost all of them, yes they will, because as soon as they move to the wage level of OF or down south, they are made for life.

 

Do you actually believe these players care about HMFC enough to give up a chance for them ad their family to be financially secure for live, just for the priveledge of playing for HMFC rather than another football team?

[redjambo]

Not always, no. As I said, CG is the exception which proves the rule. But almost all of them, yes they will, because as soon as they move to the wage level of OF or down south, they are made for life.

 

Do you actually believe these players care about HMFC enough to give up a chance for them ad their family to be financially secure for live, just for the priveledge of playing for HMFC rather than another football team?

 

Sorry, perhaps you misunderstood me JR. I agree with you that the financial temptation will be too great for the vast majority of players. I just reckon that, for various reasons, the OF does not have the pulling power on young players that it once had as compared to the leagues in the south, and thus I disagree with your original statement that

 

If any of our players actually start playing consistantly as well as or better than the OF players, the OF can pretty much sign them.

IMO, if players start reaching that level, over a conistent period as you say, then most young players would take a OF-sniffing as a wake-up call that they were valuable enough to get themselves down south, and would try to find a suitable club down there.

[Guest JamboRobbo]

Sorry, perhaps you misunderstood me JR. I agree with you that the financial temptation will be too great for the vast majority of players. I just reckon that, for various reasons, the OF does not have the pulling power on young players that it once had as compared to the leagues in the south, and thus I disagree with your original statement that

 

IMO, if players start reaching that level, over a conistent period as you say, then most young players would take a OF-sniffing as a wake-up call that they were valuable enough to get themselves down south, and would try to find a suitable club down there.

 

Agree mate, there is that option, if they are really good like CG.

 

For most SPL players though, if they are any good, the OF offer will come along before the premiership one, probably just cause the OF are more likely to take a chance on an SPL player before a premiership team will, and usually, the player cannie afford to turn down the chance to be financially secure for life, when there are no guarantees another chance like that will come along (loss of form, injury etc etc....)

[redjambo]

Agree mate, there is that option, if they are really good like CG.

 

For most SPL players though, if they are any good, the OF offer will come along before the premiership one, probably just cause the OF are more likely to take a chance on an SPL player before a premiership team will, and usually, the player cannie afford to turn down the chance to be financially secure for life, when there are no guarantees another chance like that will come along (loss of form, injury etc etc....)

 

There is more to English football life than the Premiership. The OF have signed and then s(h)at on too many home-grown players - I suspect that young players are wiser to that nowadays.

[Debut 4]

:xmasgrin: Now if you were to say that you would be devastated if we got anything less than 3 points, but after the match, after a hard game and a draw you were to turn round and say "Hey, that was ok, considering", then that would be fine. All the better if that attitude permeated throughout the club from fans to players to backroom staff... If you set your sights low then horsings is all you'll get.

Agree, and i take BH`s point in reply to that but i fully go along with the fact that you create a mentality, negative or positive, over time depending on your attitude.

 

The players fine well know the feelings of the fans and if we ourselves don`t portray belief in the team when it plays the OF it might affect the weaker minded in our squad. It sends the wrong message.

 

Bottom line is as a player you should have a big heart anyway but we know players are fragile wee things these days. It is good to read the players are quite fearless anyway but talk is nowt compared to action.

[David Brent]

The Inferiority Complex will continue while the match officials continue to give all the fifty/fifty decisions the way of Celtic (or Rangers) in these games.It must be frustrating for players when you go to these venues and play well and are the victim of blatant cheating by the referee or linesmen which costs you the game. This must have a knock on effect on your confidence and the way you approach games there. I've seen this happen over many years right back to the early sixties.

 

For the first time in many years, the incompetent decisions made by officials has been highlighted in the media. Perhaps this has been promoted by the pro Murray faction? I don't know. But it is self evident that if a controversial refereeing decision is given in favour of the soap dodgers tomorrow that has a major impact on the result, there will be a furious backlash in the press. Not necessarily in support of Hearts as the victims but to highlight "yet another dodgy decision" for Celtic!

 

I don't believe the SFA will allow any controversy tomorrow and it may be the most level playing field we'll get in years.