The last throw of the dice

[Colonel Kurtz]

The january sales are the last chance for the club,ALL our players a re up for sale.

We need to ensure the money generated does not go in "registration fees" to kaunus,or disappear in the labrynth of Vlads holding companies.

We have no idea what happened to the Gordon or Bednar money.

Hearts have made enough cash in the last year to be in profit,but more money is being taken out of the club than is being payed back to cover wages and bills,ehich are not being paid.

Deans gave backing to Romanov recently,but he has no basis for this.

We need somebody on the board ,or a whistleblower who is in the club.

[Genghis Khan]

The january sales are the last chance for the club,ALL our players a re up for sale.

We need to ensure the money generated does not go in "registration fees" to kaunus,or disappear in the labrynth of Vlads holding companies.

We have no idea what happened to the Gordon or Bednar money.

Hearts have made enough cash in the last year to be in profit,but more money is being taken out of the club than is being payed back to cover wages and bills,ehich are not being paid.

Deans gave backing to Romanov recently,but he has no basis for this.

We need somebody on the board ,or a whistleblower who is in the club.

 

Or even a Mole, eh?

[K1874M]

The january sales are the last chance for the club,ALL our players a re up for sale.

We need to ensure the money generated does not go in "registration fees" to kaunus,or disappear in the labrynth of Vlads holding companies.

We have no idea what happened to the Gordon or Bednar money.

Hearts have made enough cash in the last year to be in profit,but more money is being taken out of the club than is being payed back to cover wages and bills,ehich are not being paid.

Deans gave backing to Romanov recently,but he has no basis for this.

We need somebody on the board ,or a whistleblower who is in the club.

 

No we've not.

 

I agree there needs to be transparency but let nots get too carried away.

[Charlie-Brown]

I'm not sure your figures stack up Colonel, last published financial year Hearts lost ?12.2M which even if you deduct ?3.8M in 'confidential' player registrations still means an operating loss of ?8.4M and the year previous was ?5.2M -we would expect that debts and wage bill would have reduced but until the accounts are published who can say by how much? I think the Gordon & Bednar & Debt/Equity swap helped reduce debts but I doubt the club is operating at a profit or break-even in trading and still requires to be subsidised, I think it is the element of subsidy that UBIG are having trouble finding the money for every week/month and thus the need for cost-cutting - also the fall in season ticket sales and again no european football or cup runs will have dented the clubs turnover and cash position.

[Colonel Kurtz]

No we've not.

 

I agree there needs to be transparency but let nots get too carried away.

 

We have generated enough income in the last year to pay wages and to cover day to day running costs,rather than making the club a aughing stock by paying nobody

[Colonel Kurtz]

Or even a Mole, eh?

 

No I was meaning somebody like Fraser or Ogilvie who understands the club "finances"

[Charlie-Brown]

Craig Gordon was sold in August 2007 which means that money would have contributed towards season 2007-08 which we are awaiting the accounts for, in season 2008-09 Hearts started the season down 3000 season tickets which would have reduced income and cash before a ball was kicked, the credit crunch has since dried up UKIO/UBIG's ability to fund the deficit it appears.

[PTBCAL]

The january sales are the last chance for the club,ALL our players a re up for sale.

We need to ensure the money generated does not go in "registration fees" to kaunus,or disappear in the labrynth of Vlads holding companies.

We have no idea what happened to the Gordon or Bednar money.

Hearts have made enough cash in the last year to be in profit,but more money is being taken out of the club than is being payed back to cover wages and bills,ehich are not being paid.

Deans gave backing to Romanov recently,but he has no basis for this.

We need somebody on the board ,or a whistleblower who is in the club.

 

I share your concerns however once we see the results from 2006-07 then we will know.

 

If the debt at Hearts is still over ?20-?21m then someone has their hand in the till - again.

[Guest JamboRobbo]

I share your concerns however once we see the results from 2006-07 then we will know.

 

If the debt at Hearts is still over ?20-?21m then someone has their hand in the till - again.

 

If true, once is too often IMO.

 

Are you talking about the 3.85M?

[Colonel Kurtz]

Craig Gordon was sold in August 2007 which means that money would have contributed towards season 2007-08 which we are awaiting the accounts for, in season 2008-09 Hearts started the season down 3000 season tickets which would have reduced income and cash before a ball was kicked, the credit crunch has since dried up UKIO/UBIG's ability to fund the deficit it appears.

 

If 2007/2008 show registration fees of about ?5 million how would you feel.

there will be about ?10 million generated in January ..Berra,Kingson,Bruno,Eggert,Zaliukuas,Wallace with nobody coming in,if we allow this to be syphoned off what do we have left to sell,Tynecastle land is no longer a sellable development asset.

This money could be used to pay for "Vlads Folly" in St Anderws square.

We need a trusted voice on the boeard now.

[Coco]

I share your concerns however once we see the results from 2006-07 then we will know.

 

If the debt at Hearts is still over ?20-?21m then someone has their hand in the till - again.

 

I think that ?20m or so would be reasonable given the swap, Gordon/Bednar monies. And would allow for some continued operating losses.

[bighusref]

I'm not sure your figures stack up Colonel, last published financial year Hearts lost ?12.2M which even if you deduct ?3.8M in 'confidential' player registrations still means an operating loss of ?8.4M and the year previous was ?5.2M -we would expect that debts and wage bill would have reduced but until the accounts are published who can say by how much? I think the Gordon & Bednar & Debt/Equity swap helped reduce debts but I doubt the club is operating at a profit or break-even in trading and still requires to be subsidised, I think it is the element of subsidy that UBIG are having trouble finding the money for every week/month and thus the need for cost-cutting - also the fall in season ticket sales and again no european football or cup runs will have dented the clubs turnover and cash position.

 

So, like CK stated and using your figures as a guideline, if the Gordon and Bednar money went to our debt, we would have made an operating profit. However if it didn't the problems would be catastrophic, and even you would have to revise your stance.

[Spellczech]

The january sales are the last chance for the club,ALL our players a re up for sale.

We need to ensure the money generated does not go in "registration fees" to kaunus,or disappear in the labrynth of Vlads holding companies.

We have no idea what happened to the Gordon or Bednar money.

Hearts have made enough cash in the last year to be in profit,but more money is being taken out of the club than is being payed back to cover wages and bills,ehich are not being paid.

Deans gave backing to Romanov recently,but he has no basis for this.

We need somebody on the board ,or a whistleblower who is in the club.

 

Vlad can have up to 12Million due to the debt for equity. I?d rather that be 12 Million AFTER the rest of the debt is repaid but I suspect this may not be the case...

[Guest JamboRobbo]

Vlad can have up to 12Million due to the debt for equity. I?d rather that be 12 Million AFTER the rest of the debt is repaid but I suspect this may not be the case...

 

Are you suggesting he's using HMFCs transfer money to pay for UBIG to increase their shareholding in HMFC at the expense of other shareholders like myself?

[The Future's Maroon]

The january sales are the last chance for the club,ALL our players a re up for sale.

We need to ensure the money generated does not go in "registration fees" to kaunus,or disappear in the labrynth of Vlads holding companies.

We have no idea what happened to the Gordon or Bednar money.

Hearts have made enough cash in the last year to be in profit,but more money is being taken out of the club than is being payed back to cover wages and bills,ehich are not being paid.

Deans gave backing to Romanov recently,but he has no basis for this.

We need somebody on the board ,or a whistleblower who is in the club.

Not often I disagree with folk on here, but your figures and accusations are so far off you could be forgiven for being a Hobo Finacial expert.

 

Hearts Have not made enough money in the last year to clear the debt.

 

The fact of the matter is we fans know nothing about the finacial side of the club and probably never will. We can come on these forums and speculate all we want, but its been pretty clear from the off we simply wont be told...unfortunately?

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

What is clear is that, irrespective of the results, clarity via written submissions to the agm is needed on the finances.

[bighusref]

Not often I disagree with folk on here, but your figures and accusations are so far off you could be forgiven for being a Hobo Finacial expert.

 

Hearts Have not made enough money in the last year to clear the debt.

 

The fact of the matter is we fans know nothing about the finacial side of the club and probably never will. We can come on these forums and speculate all we want, but its been pretty clear from the off we simply wont be told...unfortunately?

 

Unless I am misunderstanding CK's OP, isn't he saying that we should be in "profit" as opposed to "clear the debt"?

 

If it is the former, then it is an entirely realistic statement given the sales of Gordon, Bednar and Velicka.

[Guest JamboRobbo]

What is clear is that, irrespective of the results, clarity via written submissions to the agm is needed on the finances.

 

Sorry Geoff, it's none of your business. Even if you are a shareholder. According to our chairman.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Sorry Geoff, it's none of your business. Even if you are a shareholder. According to our chairman.

 

By law, the chairman or a member of the board of directors has to respond to a written question.

 

If they don't, they can face legal action.

 

PS I know you were being flippant, but it is a serious point.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Unless I am misunderstanding CK's OP, isn't he saying that we should be in "profit" as opposed to "clear the debt"?

 

If it is the former, then it is an entirely realistic statement given the sales of Gordon, Bednar and Velicka.

 

We will have made a Gordon/Bednar profit. However, the profit will be less than the transfer fees we received as we run operating losses at present.

[Colonel Kurtz]

Not often I disagree with folk on here, but your figures and accusations are so far off you could be forgiven for being a Hobo Finacial expert.

 

Hearts Have not made enough money in the last year to clear the debt.

 

The fact of the matter is we fans know nothing about the finacial side of the club and probably never will. We can come on these forums and speculate all we want, but its been pretty clear from the off we simply wont be told...unfortunately?

 

I am saying that Hearts have gnerated enough income through transfers etc to pay wages and bills this year,not to clear the debt.

[bighusref]

We will have made a Gordon/Bednar profit. However, the profit will be less than the transfer fees we received as we run operating losses at present.

 

Of course. However bringing in ?6/7 Millon for Gordon and ?2.5 for Bednar will exceed any of our outgoings. I think that CK is suggesting that the near ?10 Million in transfer fees will not show on our accounts.

[Charlie-Brown]

It is impossible for gordon & bednar money not to show in the accounts, there would have to be a transfer out.

[bighusref]

It is impossible for gordon & bednar money not to show in the accounts, there would have to be a transfer out.

 

It is not impossible, it is highly unlikely. However, that is the suggestion from CK.

[Charlie-Brown]

The accounts are audited & approved also if there was things seriously amiss would ogilvie & fraser have kept silent?

[Deevers]

The accounts are audited & approved also if there was things seriously amiss would ogilvie & fraser have kept silent?

 

Exactly - it would be unimaginable for a firm of auditors to ignore alleged misconduct.

 

The next set of figures should make very interesting reading however.

[Jammy T]

The accounts are audited & approved also if there was things seriously amiss would ogilvie & fraser have kept silent?

 

I read in a sunday paper at the weekend about a group of property companies where the parent company took ?5.7m from a subsidiary company with the monies simply paid to the main man as a "management fee"

 

This got through auditors no bother

 

The problem is CB, there only needs to be a paper trail - money out being logged with an end destination.

 

There could very well be an intercompany contract / agreement that a certain percentage of our income goes to a third party and ends up in their pocket.

 

Just because it is not in Hearts best interest does not mean an accountant or auditor would have any right to query it or block it.

 

Vlad could very well have set up an arrangement whereby "agency fees" are separated into another company and there isnt much we can do about it.

 

If Enron can do what they did, Vlad can sure syphon off 1/3 of our income for any given year

 

Despite your stance re Vlad you must see this is possible (whether in your mind you consider it plausible)

[Jammy T]

Exactly - it would be unimaginable for a firm of auditors to ignore alleged misconduct.

 

The next set of figures should make very interesting reading however.

 

If Hearts have an agreement with a 3rd party to pay ?Xmillions to a third party company this is not misconduct. It might be a bad deal for Hearts but it isnt something an auditor could challenge

[Deevers]

If Hearts have an agreement with a 3rd party to pay ?Xmillions to a third party company this is not misconduct. It might be a bad deal for Hearts but it isnt something an auditor could challenge

 

Surely that agreement would have to be in the public domain and there would have to be some reference to it in the annual accounts - if only in the small print?

[Charlie-Brown]

Shenanigans are possible jammy but they require other people to collude, keep quiet & be complicit in them. I don't think that is the case.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

If Hearts have an agreement with a 3rd party to pay ?Xmillions to a third party company this is not misconduct. It might be a bad deal for Hearts but it isnt something an auditor could challenge

 

This is true.

 

However, given that no players were signed from Kaunas (in terms of Bednar et al) since the mad January of 2005, a repeat 'registration fee' would be smellier than something very smelly!

[The Old Tolbooth]

I'm just wondering when the fire sale comes around, will we be subject to the insulting offers of old from the bigot brothers of around ?200,000 for Berra, and ?35,000 for Bruno etc, and if so, are we so cash strapped that we will sell at those prices.

 

It could be a catch 22 for Vlad because if he doesn't want to sell at those prices, then we keep the players on crippling wages and get no immediate cash injection. I wonder if his poker skills will come to the fore in January, or his nerve will buckle and the crown jewels will be given away for peanuts.

 

Interesting times.

[Charlie-Brown]

How much did it cost Hearts to acquire pinilla's registration from both sporting lisbon & inter? Was that ever publicised?

[Jammy T]

Shenanigans are possible jammy but they require other people to collude, keep quiet & be complicit in them. I don't think that is the case.

 

No C-B.

 

If Vlad agreed with some sort of 3rd party to pay them a chunk of money under the heading of "agency" this is not shenanigans. This is some sort of contract for services.

 

And the reason there is any debate on this issue was the ridiculous way the issue was dealt with by Rodney.

 

If it was easily explained it should 1. have been obvious from the accounts, 2. should have been explained when questioned.

 

The fact it wasnt suggests the answer was not something we would find acceptable.

 

This is serious C-B and you should treat it as such

 

If we are flogging all players worth anything this January it is essential that Hearts the football club derive full benefit. We wont have anything left after that for a couple of years, so CK is right

[Genghis Khan]

The accounts are audited & approved also if there was things seriously amiss would ogilvie & fraser have kept silent?

 

Don't think the Velicka money will feature in our accounts anytime soon.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

However, we may be paying Kaunas for loanee's such as Miko, Zalikluas, Chesney etc, etc.

 

Also as a matter of interest who is Bruno a Hearts or kaunas player?

 

Bruno said himself ages ago that he was a Hearts player now.

[Jammy T]

Surely that agreement would have to be in the public domain and there would have to be some reference to it in the annual accounts - if only in the small print?

 

If that were true surely the detail of these agency payments would also be referenced somewhere, even if only in small print?

 

Thats the whole point - there is no written reference to who or where these agency costs went to.

 

In those circumstances anything is possible

[Charlie-Brown]

If things were amiss has campbell ogilvie or stewart fraser said or indicated to anybody on or off the record money is being taken out of hearts?

[David McCaig]

Are the player registrations really a case of hands in the till or recompense for the transfers of Bruno Aguair, Roman Bednar and Jose Goncalves to Hearts.

 

Bednar was sold to WBA for ?2.3M

Goncalves could potentially go for ?2M.

Aguair would be worth ?1.5M if he wasnt coming to the end of his contract.

 

In my opinion, we are guilty of overspending with an unhealthy reliance on UBIG underwriting our debt, rather than being a profit making footballing paragon with nasty UBIG creaming off our huge profits!!!!!

[The Don]

Some interesting theories about the Gordon/Bednar monies etc. I cant see how these monies will not have been used against the debt and syphoned off elsewhere, I think even the mad one knows there would be major trouble if that happened, my guessing on what level were are sitting as is approx 19million give or take.

 

we started the financial year 36.25million in the red

 

11.25 Million for Gordon and Bednar

12 million debt for equity swap

 

Leaves us with 13million debt

 

we then have operating costs to be added. The previous year our loses were 12million + included in that was 3.85 million in "registration fees" and a fee of 1million for planning application. Obviously the planning app fee will not appear on the next accounts and there should really be no player registration fees again. None that i can think of anyone, if there is only a very small amount. So theres say 4-4.5 million saved altogether bringing our opertaing costs down to approx 8million now. We have also reduced wages by how much is anyones guess I would say by maybe 2million bringing that figure down to now 6million in loses.

 

Adding that onto the 13million would give us a figure of 19million.

 

Of course these figures are crudely put and by no means accurate but based on the info we have they are all we really have to go on. But i would be disapointed if a figure of anymore than 22million debt was announced.

[Charlie-Brown]

Pinilla's transfer fee was never disclosed either as far as i'm aware but i doubt we got him for free?

[Colonel Kurtz]

If things were amiss has campbell ogilvie or stewart fraser said or indicated to anybody on or off the record money is being taken out of hearts?

 

We had a situation where Romanovs cretin of a son told shareholders it was none of their business what the registration fees were at the last AGM.

My op was more in relation to the money which will be generated in January ,when ALL our players are up for sale.

We are selling the family silver and need to ensure it doeas not evaporate into Vlads companies .

There will be nothing left to sell,the people who are advocating for instance the back the club idea at the Dundee Utd game have been duped before

[Charlie-Brown]

On a side topic, lots of clubs do 'undisclosed' transfers, how are these treated in accounts? Presumably they must be disclosed to the taxman?

[Jammy T]

 

I think people are getting confused about illegal and perhaps what may be happening at Hearts which some may argue is illmoral.

 

 

Spot on

 

And it is particularly concerning when an apparently intelligent person tries to paint that picture.

 

Its as if he is purposefully trying to mislead

[Genghis Khan]

We had a situation where Romanovs cretin of a son told shareholders it was none of their business what the registration fees were at the last AGM.

My op was more in relation to the money which will be generated in January ,when ALL our players are up for sale.

We are selling the family silver and need to ensure it doeas not evaporate into Vlads companies .

There will be nothing left to sell,the people who are advocating for instance the back the club idea at the Dundee Utd game have been duped before

 

Don't be such a drama queen - I can't remember a time when all of our players have not been up for sale. Can you?

 

Isn't the Dundee Utd game a 'back the team' thing rather than 'back the club'?

[Charlie-Brown]

CK vlad owns 95% approx which means 95% of assets & also the debts, how is it possible to prevent actions if they are legal? Not easy!

[The Old Tolbooth]

Some interesting theories about the Gordon/Bednar monies etc. I cant see how these monies will not have been used against the debt and syphoned off elsewhere, I think even the mad one knows there would be major trouble if that happened, my guessing on what level were are sitting as is approx 19million give or take.

 

we started the financial year 36.25million in the red

 

11.25 Million for Gordon and Bednar

12 million debt for equity swap

 

Leaves us with 13million debt

 

we then have operating costs to be added. The previous year our loses were 12million + included in that was 3.85 million in "registration fees" and a fee of 1million for planning application. Obviously the planning app fee will not appear on the next accounts and there should really be no player registration fees again. None that i can think of anyone, if there is only a very small amount. So theres say 4-4.5 million saved altogether bringing our opertaing costs down to approx 8million now. We have also reduced wages by how much is anyones guess I would say by maybe 2million bringing that figure down to now 6million in loses.

 

Adding that onto the 13million would give us a figure of 19million.

 

Of course these figures are crudely put and by no means accurate but based on the info we have they are all we really have to go on. But i would be disapointed if a figure of anymore than 22million debt was announced.

 

Are you taking into account the ?20M written off the debt earlier this year mate?

[David McCaig]

We had a situation where Romanovs cretin of a son told shareholders it was none of their business what the registration fees were at the last AGM.

My op was more in relation to the money which will be generated in January ,when ALL our players are up for sale.

We are selling the family silver and need to ensure it doeas not evaporate into Vlads companies .

There will be nothing left to sell,the people who are advocating for instance the back the club idea at the Dundee Utd game have been duped before

 

Colonel,

 

At the end of the day unless we realise ?25M in player sales, the money isnt really Hearts at all its UBIGs and whether they choose to knock that off the debt or stick it in their back pocket is up to them!!!!

 

By the same token as I said in another post, Hearts as an individual entity arent really in debt at all, its the overall situation at UBIG that counts. At the end of the day WE ARE ONLY WORTH WHAT SOMEONE IS PREPARED TO PAY FOR US AND WHAT UBIG ARE PREPARED TO ACCEPT.

 

For example, if I take ?10k out my savings account and buy a new car, then the moment I drive out the garage my new car is probably worth ?8k. If I try to sell it, I cant demand ?10k for it by claiming thats what I owe my savings account, the car is only worth what someone is prepared to pay.

 

The important thing for HMFC is that we do not owe the money to HSBC or HBOS.

[The Don]

Are you taking into account the ?20M written off the debt earlier this year mate?

 

 

Sorry 20million write off?

[Colonel Kurtz]

Don't be such a drama queen - I can't remember a time when all of our players have not been up for sale. Can you?

 

Isn't the Dundee Utd game a 'back the team' thing rather than 'back the club'?

I have been accused of being a DQ before,but ended up being right

not All players have been put up for sale at the same time.

I will be at The DU game,but would still like a respected Hearts minded individual with a credible background in the Scottish financial community monitoring the accounts.

I repeat January is our last throw of the dice