Is the english league cup as pointless as ours?

[bn jambo]

At the moment i'm watching the man utd blackburn match on a dodgy websit, old trafford is half empty, fair enough thats probably still around 35,000 and it is a wednesday night and there is a ressesion and all that, but does the english league cup not matter anymore to the big clubs?

 

Arsenal have been putting out a kids team for seasons and manutd have a reserve squad out!

 

I will admit if Hearts won the league cup i would be more than happy, but in the grand scheme of things there is no european place for winning.

 

Your thoughts Gentlemen and of course Ladies

[speedbump]

They get a european place, well Spurs did last year.

[redjambo]

No, it's still useful to the big teams for giving their youngsters and reserves a run-out. There are just far too many fixtures for the teams that are in Europe, and their main squads, to pay attention to the League Cup. However it's treated seriously by the wee teams who can claim a scalp or two, have a good run and enjoy some success they might not otherwise enjoy. It's a pretty marginal competition in the grand scheme of things but I reckon it still has its place.

[shaun.lawson]

At the moment i'm watching the man utd blackburn match on a dodgy websit, old trafford is half empty, fair enough thats probably still around 35,000 and it is a wednesday night and there is a ressesion and all that, but does the english league cup not matter anymore to the big clubs?

 

Arsenal have been putting out a kids team for seasons and manutd have a reserve squad out!

 

I will admit if Hearts won the league cup i would be more than happy, but in the grand scheme of things there is no european place for winning.

 

Your thoughts Gentlemen and of course Ladies

 

It's completely pointless, and hasn't mattered to the big clubs (except, curiously, Mourinho's Chelsea) for ages now. It's quite ridiculous that the winners still get a European place - and the many upsets are a result of most EPL clubs taking a half arsed approach.

 

Norwich drew Chelsea away in the FA Cup two seasons ago. I went, Norwich played well, and the game really meant something, for all that Chelsea cruised through easily enough. Then later that year, we drew Man City away in the League Cup, and I went to that too. Bear in mind that Citeh had their best side in years, and haven't won anything since 1976 - but Eastlands was half empty, and the game was like a glorified reserve team match. When City got their winner in the 90th minute, I wasn't even bothered: there had been no competitive edge at all. And believe me, many League Cup games are like that every season!

 

It's a waste of time, and should be done away with.

[Buffalo Bill]

I'd love Hearts to win the League Cup in my lifetime before calling it Mickey Mouse.

 

The European place has never been a factor for me either. When Hearts won the Scottish Cup in 1998, I didn't celebrate because we had won a place in the Cup Winners' Cup.

 

It's one of only two or three trophies we can win, and I'd like us to win it again one day, please.

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

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[bn jambo]

They get a european place, well Spurs did last year.

 

do they get a european place this year though? i'm not sure, thought there was talk of it being given to the league, could be wrong

 

ps 1-0 utd tevez header at the back post from giggs cross.

[bn jambo]

I agree with you BB i'd love to see Hearts win it, it's just to me it doesn't seem as important as winning the scottish cup or the league.

 

Anyway back to the point, It might just be the "big four" that don't really bother about the league cup down here and 'm sure that the other teams see it as something they can possibly win, so maybe teams in the champions league could be exscused from the competition or would that devalue the competion more or make it more competitive for other clubs????

[shoes_off]

I think it still has its place in the game, especially for the smaller clubs. Last time we got close to winning it was the 96/97 when we got beat 4-3 by the huns, if im right?

[CF11JamTart]

When Hearts won the Scottish Cup in 1998, I didn't celebrate because we had won a place in the Cup Winners' Cup.

 

 

Beautifully put

[shaun.lawson]

I agree with you BB i'd love to see Hearts win it, it's just to me it doesn't seem as important as winning the scottish cup or the league.

 

Anyway back to the point, It might just be the "big four" that don't really bother about the league cup down here and 'm sure that the other teams see it as something they can possibly win, so maybe teams in the champions league could be exscused from the competition or would that devalue the competion more or make it more competitive for other clubs????

 

That'd just devalue it even more. As it stands, Spurs won it last year, Middlesbrough in 2004 and Blackburn in 2002; and Wycombe (Wycombe!!) were semi-finalists two seasons ago. But the way it works is most EPL clubs are perfectly happy if they get to the semis, and start to care at that point - but have a take it or leave it attitude prior to that. Indeed, that goes for most other clubs too, which makes the competition something of a lottery.

 

Put it this way. Sadly, the FA Cup doesn't matter as much as it once did. But it's still at least ten times as important as the League Cup - whose golden age of the 70s and 80s is long, long ago now.

[Gilamas]

The English League Cup is not pointless ... so far (because Derby County are still in it! - last time they got to the semi final, I do believe Mr David Craig Mackay was their captain (1968))!

[blondejamtart]

Don't tell my son the Carling Cup's pointless - Old Trafford may not be full, but he's there with his best friend right now. First time either of them have been at an English game.

[shaun.lawson]

Don't tell my son the Carling Cup's pointless - Old Trafford may not be full, but he's there with his best friend right now. First time either of them have been at an English game.

 

But presumably the only reason he managed to get a ticket is because it's pointless! Southend and Coventry have knocked Man Utd out the last two seasons: on both occasions, because Ferguson showed in his team selection that he couldn't give a toss.

[Buffalo Bill]

I agree with you BB i'd love to see Hearts win it, it's just to me it doesn't seem as important as winning the scottish cup or the league.

 

 

I don't see it as 'glam' as the other two either, but I'd still celebrate for a couple of days and remember it forever.

 

I remember the 1996/97 Coca Cola Cup Final.

 

So many emotions that day: none of them inferior.

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

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[shaun.lawson]

I don't see it as 'glam' as the other two either, but I'd still celebrate for a couple of days and remember it forever.

 

I remember the 1996/97 Coca Cola Cup Final.

 

So many emotions that day: none of them inferior.

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

 

But would it have mattered so much if we hadn't been waiting so long to win something? We'd all be very happy to win the League Cup again - but I doubt many of us are bothered for more than a day or so when we get knocked out. And that doesn't apply to the proper Cup at all.

[Guest Roop]

They could always merge the two League Cups north and south of the border. I'm sure there was a cup like that many moons ago, before my time. That would make it a tiny bit more interesting for both countries and with the potential increase in interest from fans, there might be some TV money to be had.

[blondejamtart]

But presumably the only reason he managed to get a ticket is because it's pointless! Southend and Coventry have knocked Man Utd out the last two seasons: on both occasions, because Ferguson showed in his team selection that he couldn't give a toss.

 

At 13, I don't suppose he and his friend particularly care how his friend's dad managed to get them tickets - they're just delighted to get to see Man U play in the flesh, as it were...

[bn jambo]

[/i remember the 1996/97 Coca Cola Cup Final.

 

So many emotions that day: none of them inferior.

QUOTE]

 

always have the same emotions at hearts matches and i always want us to win, and i no this is a stupid point but if we had won the 96/97 final against rangers then maybe the league cup would have a special place in my heart.

[shaun.lawson]

At 13, I don't suppose he and his friend particularly care how his friend's dad managed to get them tickets - they're just delighted to get to see Man U play in the flesh, as it were...

 

Sure, I understand that. It used to be my only hope of getting a ticket to take my sister to a game (she liked Man Utd, but has grown out of it now, thank heavens). Haven't you tried converting him to the cause of maroon righteousness, though?

[Buffalo Bill]

But presumably the only reason he managed to get a ticket is because it's pointless! Southend and Coventry have knocked Man Utd out the last two seasons: on both occasions, because Ferguson showed in his team selection that he couldn't give a toss.

 

But Fergie took it serious when he beat Wigan in the 2006 final.

 

 

.... probably because he's lost to Liverpool in 2003.

 

 

At a time when the top dogs were Arsenal and then Chelsea.

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

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[portobellojambo1]

It's completely pointless, and hasn't mattered to the big clubs (except, curiously, Mourinho's Chelsea) for ages now. It's quite ridiculous that the winners still get a European place - and the many upsets are a result of most EPL clubs taking a half arsed approach.

 

Norwich drew Chelsea away in the FA Cup two seasons ago. I went, Norwich played well, and the game really meant something, for all that Chelsea cruised through easily enough. Then later that year, we drew Man City away in the League Cup, and I went to that too. Bear in mind that Citeh had their best side in years, and haven't won anything since 1976 - but Eastlands was half empty, and the game was like a glorified reserve team match. When City got their winner in the 90th minute, I wasn't even bothered: there had been no competitive edge at all. And believe me, many League Cup games are like that every season!

 

It's a waste of time, and should be done away with.

 

Given that there is still a European place up for grabs shaun you would think that at the very least the sort of middle tier of EPL clubs would still treat it with a bit of respect. Unless of course there are a number of clubs below the top 4 who believe they can make Europe through their league position and/or aren't fussy if they qualify for Europe because they can live comfortably on what they get through the Sky TV deal etc.

[shaun.lawson]

Given that there is still a European place up for grabs shaun you would think that at the very least the sort of middle tier of EPL clubs would still treat it with a bit of respect. Unless of course there are a number of clubs below the top 4 who believe they can make Europe through their league position and/or aren't fussy if they qualify for Europe because they can live comfortably on what they get through the Sky TV deal etc.

 

You would think that PJ1, I agree. But in truth, very few of them are bothered: partly because the Euro Vase ain't what it once was, more because the League Cup's a way of resting players and picking reserves and youngsters.

[shaun.lawson]

But Fergie took it serious when he beat Wigan in the 2006 final.

 

 

.... probably because he's lost to Liverpool in 2003.

 

 

At a time when the top dogs were Arsenal and then Chelsea.

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

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He took it seriously at that point: as I said, if you're in the semis or final, you're hardly not going to care! But beforehand, United had roughly the same approach as ever. Winning it certainly helped them get back on the rails - but I'd always rather a tournament is won by a side who've really cared about triumphing from the outset.

[blondejamtart]

Sure, I understand that. It used to be my only hope of getting a ticket to take my sister to a game (she liked Man Utd, but has grown out of it now, thank heavens). Haven't you tried converting him to the cause of maroon righteousness, though?

 

Hey come on, he's a ST holder like the rest of us! Maroon through and through - but he and his friend have always wanted to go down to Old Trafford to watch Man U! He even dragged his pal along to Saturday's game - even though his pal (whisper it) would rather have been sitting in the Roseburn Stand! Give the lad his due though, he said he really enjoyed the game and admitted his team were cr*p!

[Buffalo Bill]

But would it have mattered so much if we hadn't been waiting so long to win something?

 

But then by the same logic, you could ask that question about 1998, had we won the CCC in '96.

 

I'm not sure if it's a relevant question.

 

You might as well ask me, Shaun: would it have mattered as much if you were a billionaire; or if your nipples poured beer?

 

The fact is, that was our situation back in 1996.

 

Logic plays no part in the emotions.

 

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

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[Buffalo Bill]

He took it seriously at that point: But beforehand, United had roughly the same approach as ever. .

 

 

Are you sure Shaun, because I might check?!

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

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[redjambo]

But then by the same logic, you could ask that question about 1998, had we won the CCC in '96.

 

I'm not sure if it's a relevant question.

 

You might as well ask me, Shaun: would it have mattered as much if you were a billionaire; or if your nipples poured beer?

 

The fact is, that was our situation back in 1996.

 

Logic plays no part in the emotions.

 

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

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Do your nipples pour beer? It would be an excellent talent to have but I'm not sure I'd have a pint of it.

[shaun.lawson]

Hey come on, he's a ST holder like the rest of us! Maroon through and through - but he and his friend have always wanted to go down to Old Trafford to watch Man U! He even dragged his pal along to Saturday's game - even though his pal (whisper it) would rather have been sitting in the Roseburn Stand! Give the lad his due though, he said he really enjoyed the game and admitted his team were cr*p!

 

Ah, OK. Good stuff! I've only been to Old Trafford once: with my Spurs-supporting brother for an FA Cup tie in January 1997. The home support were half asleep most of the game ("where in Cornwall are you from?", we sang whenever one of them piped up), the only real din was when the naff PA announcer was in full swing before the game... and United won 2-0. Wimbledon knocked them out in the next round though, so it wasn't all bad.

[shaun.lawson]

Are you sure Shaun, because I might check?!

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

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Depends on how you look at it. Their side for their first game, against Barnet in the last 32, was understandably weak; but they didn't have a full strength team out until the semi with Blackburn. Prior to that, Tim Howard, Kieran Richardson and Guiseppe Rossi always started.

[Buffalo Bill]

Depends on how you look at it. Their side for their first game, against Barnet in the last 32, was understandably weak; but they didn't have a full strength team out until the semi with Blackburn. Prior to that, Tim Howard, Kieran Richardson and Guiseppe Rossi always started.

 

I agree that it becomes important at the semi final stage but once at Cardiff, Fergie didn't look like he enjoyed losing to Liverpool; and likewise, the '06 win was a welcome trophy in the 'lean' years of losing the big battles to Wenger and Mourinho.

 

Up here, Rangers gladly won the League Cup this year. Their first win in three years.

 

Just a shame QPR lost to Oxford in '86!

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

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[shaun.lawson]

I agree that it becomes important at the semi final stage but once at Cardiff, Fergie didn't look like he enjoyed losing to Liverpool; and likewise, the '06 win was a welcome trophy in the 'lean' years of losing the big battles to Wenger and Mourinho.

 

Up here, Rangers gladly won the League Cup this year. Their first win in three years.

 

Just a shame QPR lost to Oxford in '86!

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

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Indeed! Particularly sad for Jim Smith, who never managed to break his major trophy duck, and was horribly unlucky with Pompey in '92. That was when the LC really was something, though: Liverpool winning it four times on the bounce, minnows like Oxford or Luton triumphing, Arsenal setting off on their glory period under George Graham, Sheffield Wednesday being presented the trophy by Tracey Bateman, Rumbelows Employee of the Year (!) - oh, and a certain team from East Anglia beating the binmen in the semis and enjoying maybe our most famous day in the final.

 

Norwich, who've never reached the FA Cup Final, have actually won the League Cup twice - but the first occasion was a two-legged final with Rochdale, and while the event isn't quite back to those modest days, it's nowhere near what it once was.

[Smoked-Glass]

they should join the scottish and english together in this cup at the same round the european teams enter it. This would be a good british cup and would give lots of teams a great away trip or a novality team at home. The cup should be unseeded from this round on and should stay in the same format of just 1 game on the night (no replays or legs)

 

The winner should get uefa cup spot and a good cash prize.

 

 

Tv companies would be interested and so would the sponsors.

[Spellczech]

Nowadays it only means something to the semi-finalists. Once clubs both side of the border get to the semi they suddenly realise that it is silverware. I didn?t give a toss about our loss to Airdrie this year as IMO we had more important problems at the time.

[shaun.lawson]

Here's a way of testing this. Below, how I felt about Hearts' various League Cup defeats in the modern era:

 

1995/6 - Dundee - very frustrated

1996/7 - Rangers - gutted but enormously proud

1997/8 - Dunfermline - ****ed off

1998/9 - St Johnstone - embarrassed and alarmed

1999/0 - Kilmarnock - ****ed off (many others were incandescent with fury)

2000/1 - Celtic - proud of the fight shown

2001/2 - Ross County - embarrassed, but nowhere near as much as when ICT put us out the proper Cup

2002/3 - Rangers - a bit frustrated, but philosophical

2003/4 - Dundee - big chance missed, but I wasn't that gutted

2004/5 - Motherwell - very frustrated. Jamie Mac - aarrgghh!

2005/6 - Livingston - not bothered

2006/7 - Hibs - apoplectic and disbelieving

2007/8 - Rangers - ****ed off with McCurry, but otherwise philosophical

2008/9 - Airdrie - not bothered

 

In recent years, it's taken either a horribly cruel defeat or Vlad to pull off one of his specials to really raise my hackles. Otherwise, I'm much less concerned about this competition than I once was: something changed with it around the turn of the century, I think.

[Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC]

I came away from the Motherwell and Hibs league cup games probably the most angry I have ever been at the football so I think the competition still has some value!

 

Saying that, it probably wasn't about getting knocked out of the cup ... it was the manner in which both defeats took place. And both were at Easter Road.

[Buffalo Bill]

Here's a way of testing this. Below, how I felt about Hearts' various League Cup defeats in the modern era:

 

1995/6 - Dundee - very frustrated

1996/7 - Rangers - gutted but enormously proud

1997/8 - Dunfermline - ****ed off

1998/9 - St Johnstone - embarrassed and alarmed

1999/0 - Kilmarnock - ****ed off (many others were incandescent with fury)

2000/1 - Celtic - proud of the fight shown

2001/2 - Ross County - embarrassed, but nowhere near as much as when ICT put us out the proper Cup

2002/3 - Rangers - a bit frustrated, but philosophical

2003/4 - Dundee - big chance missed, but I wasn't that gutted

2004/5 - Motherwell - very frustrated. Jamie Mac - aarrgghh!

2005/6 - Livingston - not bothered

2006/7 - Hibs - apoplectic and disbelieving

2007/8 - Rangers - ****ed off with McCurry, but otherwise philosophical

2008/9 - Airdrie - not bothered

 

In recent years, it's taken either a horribly cruel defeat or Vlad to pull off one of his specials to really raise my hackles. Otherwise, I'm much less concerned about this competition than I once was: something changed with it around the turn of the century, I think.

 

Some of the Old Firm winning the cup victories have been very low-key.

 

In fact, some of Celtic's recent Scottish Cup victories have been non-events.

 

There is no doubt we could do with a non-Old Firm (as in either of them) final.

 

Buffalo Bill

 

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[buster18]

They get a european place, well Spurs did last year.

 

I would say it was far from pointless. Chelsea played a 1st choice team from the QF last year and I'd imagine Man U will do the same if they get Spurs in the semi.

 

Usually the teams there have Europe as well to consider where usually its only the OF that are in Europe after August

[shaun.lawson]

Some of the Old Firm winning the cup victories have been very low-key.

 

In fact, some of Celtic's recent Scottish Cup victories have been non-events.

 

There is no doubt we could do with a non-Old Firm (as in either of them) final.

 

Buffalo Bill

 

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I absolutely agree. Man Utd winning the LC in 2006 felt like a near non-event to me too, and you're dead right about Celtic in the SC. The last non-OF side to beat either of the uglies in the final of either competition? Hearts in 1998: a shocking stat, and too often, the proper Cup Final ends up as Celtic v a relegation struggler.

[Buffalo Bill]

I absolutely agree. Man Utd winning the LC in 2006 felt like a near non-event to me too, and you're dead right about Celtic in the SC. The last non-OF side to beat either of the uglies in the final of either competition? Hearts in 1998: a shocking stat, and too often, the proper Cup Final ends up as Celtic v a relegation struggler.

 

I don't even bother to watch these games anymore.

 

Celtic v Dunfermline? No thanks.

 

 

But Hearts in a League Cup Final? It would still mean everything.

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

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[chester copperpot]

The league cup is only a diddy cup when Hearts are eliminated IMO.

[Larry]

there was 55,000 at OT tonight. think thats a superb crowd for the league cup, freezing night,near xmas, recession etc and though i never seen the teams, i would guess man utd rested most of the big names.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

The difference these days in England is that shock results for the 'big 4' are much, much rarer. Therefore, when a 'shock' happens in the League Cup it is inevitably dismissed because a reserve team has been played, such as Burnley beating the Arsenal Reserves.

 

Cup competitions need that shock factor to sustain them and make them great. That is why last year's FA Cup was great in that it was a complete non big 4 final. OK, the final itself was rubbish but it was like it was years ago.

 

Let's face it, when Man Utd played Millwall in the Cup Final did anyone think that Millwall had a chance of getting close to United? That's why the FA Cup has lost some of its magic.

 

Likewise, when QoS played Rangers in the final of the Scottish last year, I only took an interest when QoS started putting the frighteners up the stickies. I had written the match off prior to that.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

there was 55,000 at OT tonight. think thats a superb crowd for the league cup, freezing night,near xmas, recession etc and though i never seen the teams, i would guess man utd rested most of the big names.

 

United: Foster - Rafael, Neville, Evans, O'Shea - Nani, Gibson, Possebon, Anderson - Tevez, Giggs

[bighusref]

I don't even bother to watch these games anymore.

 

Celtic v Dunfermline? No thanks.

 

 

But Hearts in a League Cup Final? It would still mean everything.

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

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Agreed.

 

I am not even slightly interested in the English league cup, nor the English league or the English cup for that matter. However, I am prepared to contradict myself about the Scottish League cup, if Hibs win it it is a Mickey Mouse cup and not as good as the Scottish cup however if we were to win it I would celebrate for days and love it. However, it would still be slightly less important than the Scottish cup.

 

Like BB says, let us win it before writing it off.