Hearts Turnover... eeek!

[Sub4TiddlerMurray]

From the Scotsman http://sport.scotsman.com/football/Scottish-clubs-face-survival-battle.4754453.jp

 

ABERDEEN

 

Turnover: ?7.52m

 

Wages: ?5.15m

 

Wages/Turnover Ratio: 69%

 

Debt: ?11.46m

 

CELTIC

 

Turnover: ?75.24m

 

Wages: ?36.42m

 

Wages/Turnover Ratio: 48%

 

Debt: ?9.16m

 

FALKIRK

 

Turnover: ?3.98m

 

Wages: ?2.31m

 

Wages/Turnover Ratio: 58%

 

Debt: None

 

DUNDEE UNITED

 

Turnover: ?4.01m

 

Wages: ?2.58m

 

Wages/Turnover Ratio: 64%

 

Debt:?7.28m

 

DUNFERMLINE ATHLETIC

 

Turnover: ?5.15m

 

Wages: ?3.34m

 

Wages/Turnover Ratio: 65%

 

Debt:?8.92m

 

HEARTS

 

Turnover: ?10.32m

 

Wages: ?12.49m

 

Wages/Turnover Ratio: 121%

 

Debt:?37.57m

 

HIBERNIAN

 

Turnover: ?9.85m

 

Wages: ?4.06m

 

Wages/Turnover Ratio: 41%

 

Debt:?2.88m

 

INVERNESS CT

 

Turnover: ?2.88m

 

Wages: ?1.35m

 

Wages/Turnover Ratio: 47%

 

Debt:?20,000

 

KILMARNOCK

 

Turnover: ?8.06m

 

Wages: ?3.90m

 

Wages/Turnover Ratio: 48%

 

Debt:?11.60m

 

MOTHERWELL

 

Turnover: ?3.68m

 

Wages: ?2.37m

 

Wages/Turnover Ratio: 64%

 

Debt:?0.5m

 

RANGERS

 

Turnover: ?41.77m

 

Wages: ?24.26m

 

Wages/Turnover Ratio: 58%

 

Debt:?16.54m

 

 

ST MIRREN

 

Turnover: ?2.96m

 

Wages: ?1.75m

 

Wages/Turnover Ratio: 59%

 

Debt:?1.37m

 

? Source: Price Waterhouse Coopers Annual Review 2008 (Figures from accounts for 2006-07 season)

[PresidentRomanov]

Figures for 2006/07 season

[Drylaw Hearts]

????????????????

 

We knew that a year ago when the last set of accounts were released.

[Deevers]

From the Scotsman http://sport.scotsman.com/football/Scottish-clubs-face-survival-battle.4754453.jp

 

ABERDEEN

 

Turnover: ?7.52m

 

Wages: ?5.15m

 

Wages/Turnover Ratio: 69%

 

Debt: ?11.46m

 

CELTIC

 

Turnover: ?75.24m

 

Wages: ?36.42m

 

Wages/Turnover Ratio: 48%

 

Debt: ?9.16m

 

FALKIRK

 

Turnover: ?3.98m

 

Wages: ?2.31m

 

Wages/Turnover Ratio: 58%

 

Debt: None

 

DUNDEE UNITED

 

Turnover: ?4.01m

 

Wages: ?2.58m

 

Wages/Turnover Ratio: 64%

 

Debt:?7.28m

 

DUNFERMLINE ATHLETIC

 

Turnover: ?5.15m

 

Wages: ?3.34m

 

Wages/Turnover Ratio: 65%

 

Debt:?8.92m

 

HEARTS

 

Turnover: ?10.32m

 

Wages: ?12.49m

 

Wages/Turnover Ratio: 121%

 

Debt:?37.57m

 

HIBERNIAN

 

Turnover: ?9.85m

 

Wages: ?4.06m

 

Wages/Turnover Ratio: 41%

 

Debt:?2.88m

 

INVERNESS CT

 

Turnover: ?2.88m

 

Wages: ?1.35m

 

Wages/Turnover Ratio: 47%

 

Debt:?20,000

 

KILMARNOCK

 

Turnover: ?8.06m

 

Wages: ?3.90m

 

Wages/Turnover Ratio: 48%

 

Debt:?11.60m

 

MOTHERWELL

 

Turnover: ?3.68m

 

Wages: ?2.37m

 

Wages/Turnover Ratio: 64%

 

Debt:?0.5m

 

RANGERS

 

Turnover: ?41.77m

 

Wages: ?24.26m

 

Wages/Turnover Ratio: 58%

 

Debt:?16.54m

 

 

ST MIRREN

 

Turnover: ?2.96m

 

Wages: ?1.75m

 

Wages/Turnover Ratio: 59%

 

Debt:?1.37m

 

? Source: Price Waterhouse Coopers Annual Review 2008 (Figures from accounts for 2006-07 season)

 

 

Old figures - I would suggest that matters are different now!

[redjambo]

Cue six or seven pages of hobonomics...

[Deevers]

Cue six or seven pages of hobonomics...

 

Yep, This will draw them in like moths to a lit candle.

[Buffalo Bill]

I fancy Spain to win Euro 2008.

 

And hopefully someone from Whitburn will emerge to win X Factor for a change.

 

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

[Sub4TiddlerMurray]

????????????????

 

We knew that a year ago when the last set of accounts were released.

 

hmmn, that'll be the latest set of accounts available and not sure I've seen these figures alongside other clubs before. Glad people are relaxed about it. maybe there's nothing at all to worry about :eek:

[Coco]

Anyone like to have a guess where the turnover and wage costs figures for the 2007-8 season will be?

 

No European football, no significant cup runs. Hospitality down, attendances down, fewer TV games?, presumably fewer shirt sales?

 

Turnover of ?7m?

 

Player sale profits of ?7-8m?

 

Wages costs of ?9m?

[Sub4TiddlerMurray]

Anyone like to have a guess where the turnover and wage costs figures for the 2007-8 season will be?

 

No European football, no significant cup runs. Hospitality down, attendances down, fewer TV games?, presumably fewer shirt sales?

 

Turnover of ?7m?

 

Player sale profits of ?7-8m?

 

Wages costs of ?9m?

 

And, the debt write-off brings it down to ?24M or something like that.

 

I know things are more in order than last year and some hefty wage packets have moved on - Tall, Pinilla, etc. but it's still a shock to see

[Drylaw Hearts]

hmmn, that'll be the latest set of accounts available and not sure I've seen these figures alongside other clubs before. Glad people are relaxed about it. maybe there's nothing at all to worry about :eek:

 

I think people are 'relaxed' about it because they now mean absolutely nothing.

 

The only thing that matters is the next set of Accounts which are due out soon.

 

Infact.....

 

IIRC, they're normally out by now.

[Guest JamboRobbo]

Don't tend to get shocked by year or 2 old new myself.

[132goals1958]

????????????????

 

We knew that a year ago when the last set of accounts were released.

 

I find it a bit wearisome reading or listening to David Glen and his Price Waterhouse Annual review. It?s like giving you a watch, and then telling you the time. No one doubts the likely effects of the economic downturn, and that clubs will have to sell before they buy. The hitherto levels of expenditure obviously cant be maintained. But for FFS why keep bombarding us with historical information, which is now out of date. Although it will not make pretty reading the profile of our balance sheet will have changed significantly. Those consultants & large accounting firms are well aware that a balance sheet is a snapshot in time -- so please tell us something we didn?t know already.

[Clerry Jambo]

http://www.hibs.net/message/showthread.php?t=136322

[Deevers]

http://www.hibs.net/message/showthread.php?t=136322

 

Any glimmer of bad news has them creaming their pants - even if it is two years old.

[bavariajambo]

Any glimmer of bad news has them creaming their pants - even if it is two years old.

 

 

Nothing new there then, I see our old pal Skotsko is not creaming it though!!

[Carl Weathers]

[speedbump]

Great Scot!!

[Rawrrrrrrr]

and when are we likely to see 07/08 Figures?

 

You have to love some people, hearts delay and delay the figures to the degree they break companies act legislation, then use this as an excuse as to why the figures mean nothing.

 

Do we think if upto date figures came out tomorrow they would be any less worrying?

[Victorian]

good grief.

 

we constantly get these old figures rammed down our throats from idiot hobos and ersehole hacks, do we really need this from hearts fans?

 

oh wait...

[McJambo]

and when are we likely to see 07/08 Figures?

 

You have to love some people, hearts delay and delay the figures to the degree they break companies act legislation, then use this as an excuse as to why the figures mean nothing.

 

Do we think if upto date figures came out tomorrow they would be any less worrying?

 

Surely they would be?

 

Annual wage bill minus Pinilla, Bednar, % Of Goncalves I'd imagine, dont forget gordon was on a good wage with his new contract.

 

Gordon money, Bednar Money 9.5-11.5 million?

 

Debt write off? 12 milion.

 

Surely the club can be nowhere near 37million in the red?

[Rawrrrrrrr]

good grief.

 

we constantly get these old figures rammed down our throats from idiot hobos and ersehole hacks, do we really need this from hearts fans?

 

oh wait...

 

 

There the most recent in circulation though, if the clubs got their fingers out and released the new ones we would be able to refer to them.

[PresidentRomanov]

and when are we likely to see 07/08 Figures?

 

You have to love some people, hearts delay and delay the figures to the degree they break companies act legislation, then use this as an excuse as to why the figures mean nothing.

 

Do we think if upto date figures came out tomorrow they would be any less worrying?

 

They're maybe holding off to see if you get your refund, before releasing the figures

[redm]

When the unpaid wages thing was going on, didn't they say that it came to around 90k for the playing staff?

 

That would make it about ?4.68m per annum before bonuses then....

[ericb]

Gordons Transfer fee has to be included in the new figures, so turnover is likely to rocket.

[jambos are go!]

It seems that the Scotsman is as keen on pursuing a drive Romanov out campaign as it is in keeping HBOS Scottish. Also seems to me that the whole point of the article is a ruse to allow them to use old figures(and they know they dont represent the current position) to embarrass the current Hearts regime. Strange that these stories are renewed when things are going well on the field.

 

I have absolutely no hard evidence to support it but my instincts keep telling me the much whispered new White Knight(S) are still around and some of the press are onside.

[Victorian]

There the most recent in circulation though, if the clubs got their fingers out and released the new ones we would be able to refer to them.

they can only be released once they are ready. do you know if they are?

[Rawrrrrrrr]

Surely they would be?

 

Annual wage bill minus Pinilla, Bednar, % Of Goncalves I'd imagine, dont forget gordon was on a good wage with his new contract.

 

Gordon money, Bednar Money 9.5-11.5 million?

 

Debt write off? 12 milion.

 

Surely the club can be nowhere near 37million in the red?

 

 

They will run upto July 08 so Pinilla and Goncalves still there, possibly any pay off for Pinilla too.

 

Gordon and Bednar money yes

 

The write off - yes however it was more an equity swap.

 

You would hope we cannot be anywhere near 37 mil in the red but nothing would surprise me as we have had high wages, a few acquisitions and so what.

 

the new accounts must surely be out soon so we will see in the near future though.

[Rawrrrrrrr]

they can only be released once they are ready. do you know if they are?

 

 

The accounts run upto July 2008.

 

Do I know if there ready? No

 

Is it unreasonable to expect them to be ready in the very near future? No

[Drylaw Hearts]

When the unpaid wages thing was going on, didn't they say that it came to around 90k for the playing staff?

 

That would make it about ?4.68m per annum before bonuses then....

 

 

Plus Tax and NI and Pension contributions ?????

 

It's probably still nearer ?10million than ?5million imo.

[Victorian]

The accounts run upto July 2008.

 

Do I know if there ready? No

 

Is it unreasonable to expect them to be ready in the very near future? No

why are you saying they should be released then?

 

accountants have been known to be tardy in producing accounts you know.

[Drylaw Hearts]

they can only be released once they are ready. do you know if they are?

 

They're still working on them.

 

 

 

[Rawrrrrrrr]

why are you saying they should be released then?

 

accountants have been known to be tardy in producing accounts you know.

 

 

Based on the time period for other companies to produce accounts, have audits and have them released.

 

I would say expecting them to be released no later than January each year is reasonable.

 

When would you expect them to be released reasonably?

[WindyMiller]

When the unpaid wages thing was going on, didn't they say that it came to around 90k for the playing staff?

 

That would make it about ?4.68m per annum before bonuses then....

 

 

That would be take-home pay.

You'd need to add in tax, N.I., Pension, and bonuses before you'd get to the total figure.

[The Old Tolbooth]

I fancy Spain to win Euro 2008.

 

And hopefully someone from Whitburn will emerge to win X Factor for a change.

 

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

 

[Victorian]

Based on the time period for other companies to produce accounts, have audits and have them released.

 

I would say expecting them to be released no later than January each year is reasonable.

 

When would you expect them to be released reasonably?

1. it's not january yet.

 

2. when they are ready. comparisons with other companies isn't valid, each company will have their own particular set of circumstances to take into account.

 

they will be available when they are available.

[Rawrrrrrrr]

1. it's not january yet.

 

2. when they are ready. comparisons with other companies isn't valid, each company will have their own particular set of circumstances to take into account.

 

they will be available when they are available.

 

1) Which is why I said soon

 

2) I think it is, you perform your year end procedures internally or hire someone to do it, you have an audit done, you compile the other annual report stuff. Whilst I dont expect every company to be the same period I think any more than 6 months is a bit much. Its an annual report, not a fictional story.

[redm]

Plus Tax and NI and Pension contributions ?????

 

It's probably still nearer ?10million than ?5million imo.

 

Ah. I just assumed the 90k would include the tax and NI because of the way they seem to work things...but maybe not...and I think the actual figure was 100k rather than 90k anyway.

 

Basically, I haven't a clue.

 

[Drylaw Hearts]

Ah. I just assumed the 90k would include the tax and NI because of the way they seem to work things...but maybe not...and I think the actual figure was 100k rather than 90k anyway.

 

Basically, I haven't a clue.

 

 

Tbh.....

 

Neither have I.

 

 

 

[Rawrrrrrrr]

Ah. I just assumed the 90k would include the tax and NI because of the way they seem to work things...but maybe not...and I think the actual figure was 100k rather than 90k anyway.

 

Basically, I haven't a clue.

 

 

 

Based on how others work, hearts would pay net wages to the staff and retain the NI and Tax and pay that seperately to HMRC.

 

You need to add at least 35% approx to these figures to get the gross.

 

There may also be any pension deductions, or other benefits in kind being used as salary remuneration.

 

If we are paying 4.7 mn net to players for weekly salaries, I dont think its unreasonable to think the annual wage bill for everything will be still 10mn plus once you account for non playing staff, consultancy, signing on fees, bonuses etc

[werwolf]

and when are we likely to see 07/08 Figures?

 

You have to love some people, hearts delay and delay the figures to the degree they break companies act legislation, then use this as an excuse as to why the figures mean nothing.

 

Do we think if upto date figures came out tomorrow they would be any less worrying?

 

Yes

[Coco]

Plus Tax and NI and Pension contributions ?????

 

It's probably still nearer ?10million than ?5million imo.

 

Very few win bonuses, goal bonuses, clean sheet bonuses and league/cup success bonuses last year though. That's why my guess was at ?9m.

[redm]

Based on how others work, hearts would pay net wages to the staff and retain the NI and Tax and pay that seperately to HMRC.

 

You need to add at least 35% approx to these figures to get the gross.

 

There may also be any pension deductions, or other benefits in kind being used as salary remuneration.

 

If we are paying 4.7 mn net to players for weekly salaries, I dont think its unreasonable to think the annual wage bill for everything will be still 10mn plus once you account for non playing staff, consultancy, signing on fees, bonuses etc

 

Right, gotcha. My assumption was that they'd send the whole amount over, I just didn't stop to wonder where the tax part would go from there.

 

And I've no idea why it initially surprised me that there would be pension deductions, I suppose I just thought that being well paid young sports people they would probably earn so much that they wouldn't get benefits like that and might have to arrange pensions themselves. But I guess that would be unlikely given the short careers that they have.

 

On a more positive note, with a wage bill of 90-100k it also seems unlikely that any of them are earning more than 10k per week....

[PTBCAL]

We will see a real difference in the wage bill for season 2008-09. No Tall, Pinalla & McCann. ?1.2m a year alone for them.

[peebles jambo]

 

that's a bit harsh, i personally couldn't give a **** about figures

[132goals1958]

1) Which is why I said soon

 

2) I think it is, you perform your year end procedures internally or hire someone to do it, you have an audit done, you compile the other annual report stuff. Whilst I dont expect every company to be the same period I think any more than 6 months is a bit much. Its an annual report, not a fictional story.

 

The accounts have to be filed no later than 10 months after the accounting reference date ie 31st July. So by my reckoning they have until midnight on 31st May 2009. Most businesses wait as long as possible in submitting their statutory accounts so I dont see why Hearts should be any different.

[Rawrrrrrrr]

The accounts have to be filed no later than 10 months after the accounting reference date ie 31st July. So by my reckoning they have until midnight on 31st May 2009. Most businesses wait as long as possible in submitting their statutory accounts so I dont see why Hearts should be any different.

 

 

I think its actually 7 months - reduced to 6 months for the next set of accounts, which means there due in January. Last year it was march/april before they got released.

 

Also I don't think its fair to say companies wait as long as possible, some companies are more complex and thus take longer to compile all the data.

 

Pre Romanov the club normally always had the accounts out and the AGM in January.

 

At the moment it seems we wait as late as possible, even after the statutory time, then use it as a defence for the position shown.

 

I.e don't worry about the 40 mn debt, its 2 years out of date.

 

I think most fans would just like to see the most recent accounts and be a bit reassured that the major cash flows of the last financial year were not squandered and actually reduced the debt. Also to see that the wages have went down.

 

I would hope the accounts will be out soon, and I definitely hope we are not going to be held off as long as possible like last time round.

[132goals1958]

I think its actually 7 months - reduced to 6 months for the next set of accounts, which means there due in January. Last year it was march/april before they got released.

 

Also I don't think its fair to say companies wait as long as possible, some companies are more complex and thus take longer to compile all the data.

 

Pre Romanov the club normally always had the accounts out and the AGM in January.

 

At the moment it seems we wait as late as possible, even after the statutory time, then use it as a defence for the position shown.

 

I.e don't worry about the 40 mn debt, its 2 years out of date.

 

I think most fans would just like to see the most recent accounts and be a bit reassured that the major cash flows of the last financial year were not squandered and actually reduced the debt. Also to see that the wages have went down.

 

I would hope the accounts will be out soon, and I definitely hope we are not going to be held off as long as possible like last time round.

 

I think I will stick with submitting my accounts as late as possible 10 months after the year end in compliance with Companies House regulations. Sorry to cast doubt on your assertion though.

[Rawrrrrrrr]

I think I will stick with submitting my accounts as late as possible 10 months after the year end in compliance with Companies House regulations. Sorry to cast doubt on your assertion though.

 

 

Where did I talk about your accounts?

 

Heart of Midlothian PLC must file their accounts no later than 31st January 2009 to comply with the companies act.

 

For financial year 08/09 that will become 31st December based on the current periods.

 

Failure to do so results in financial penalties, albeit, small penalties.

 

These are not assertions but facts.

 

As I said I do think hearts will be doing themselves a favour releasing them ASAP as it will stop people trawling out massively out of date accounts and offer some reassurance to fans on the position - well at least if things have improved as many believe.

[Rosewood]

1) Which is why I said soon

 

2) I think it is, you perform your year end procedures internally or hire someone to do it, you have an audit done, you compile the other annual report stuff. Whilst I dont expect every company to be the same period I think any more than 6 months is a bit much. Its an annual report, not a fictional story.