David Cameron - Child Abuse Case

[Rawrrrrrrr]

Just seen his commons speak about the scandal about haringey council and the death of a child left in the care of a teenage mum and her bf and the local child services mistakes

 

One quote stood out

 

" A boyfriend who couldnt read but could beat a child"

 

Is he trying to draw some link between the two? Is he suggest a child cant be cared for by someone of poor intelligence?

 

Seems that way to me. Surely not a very intelligent statement from him.

[Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC]

All aboard the easily offended bus.

[The Brow]

I dont think he's meaning what you're interpreting it to mean. His full statement is...

 

"Let?s be honest. This is a story about a 17-year-old girl who had no idea how to bring up a child.

 

"It?s about a boyfriend who couldn?t read but could beat a child and it?s about a social services department that gets ?100 million a year and can?t look after children"

 

"In the case of failing schools we take them over. This department in Haringey, one in four positions for social workers is completely vacant. They do nothing to help struggling local schools that are failing and another child has been beaten to death"

 

I dont get what your problem is with his statement.

[shaun.lawson]

Prancer,

 

A little child has been staggeringly neglected and killed in a case that has shocked and moved the nation. Yet do we see an ounce of compassion or humanity from you regarding this? No. Instead, you make some bizarre, trolling, borderline inappropriate point about David Cameron. Why?

 

All he meant was, in one of the world's wealthiest nations, it is an absolute scandal that so many people are illiterate and innumerate - and even more that it is possible for something as horrific as this to have happened. And he's quite right on both counts. The overcentralisation of and general (though not in Haringey) lack of investment in social services is a complete disgrace; and if we don't learn from this shocking tragedy, we never will.

[The Brow]

Prancer,

 

A little child has been staggeringly neglected and killed in a case that has shocked and moved the nation. Yet do we see an ounce of compassion or humanity from you regarding this? No. Instead, you make some bizarre, trolling, borderline inappropriate point about David Cameron. Why?

 

All he meant was, in one of the world's wealthiest nations, it is an absolute scandal that so many people are illiterate and innumerate - and even more that it is possible for something as horrific as this to have happened. And he's quite right on both counts. The overcentralisation of and general (though not in Haringey) lack of investment in social services is a complete disgrace; and if we don't learn from this shocking tragedy, we never will.

 

Im glad some of us can read and dont just take random sentences out of context!

[bertracoon]

How do you do that "ignore" thing on this.

 

Every time I see a thread started by prancer I have to read it just to see what absolute b0ll0cks he's talking now.

 

Need to stop it as it's taking years off my life.

[Rawrrrrrrr]

Prancer,

 

A little child has been staggeringly neglected and killed in a case that has shocked and moved the nation. Yet do we see an ounce of compassion or humanity from you regarding this? No. Instead, you make some bizarre, trolling, borderline inappropriate point about David Cameron. Why?

 

All he meant was, in one of the world's wealthiest nations, it is an absolute scandal that so many people are illiterate and innumerate - and even more that it is possible for something as horrific as this to have happened. And he's quite right on both counts. The overcentralisation of and general (though not in Haringey) lack of investment in social services is a complete disgrace; and if we don't learn from this shocking tragedy, we never will.

 

 

Why because I dont agree with cameron's abuse of a tragedy, even the other politicians seemed a bit taken back by the blatant point scoring

 

Yes lessons need to be learned but I fail to see why cameron felt the illiteracy of the culprit was relevant

 

Surely a poor literate hooligan is just as bad, imo it was almost inverted snobbery suggesting it was a problem of only the poor.

 

As for the neglect by social services yes it needs to be investigated and anyone who cocked up sacked/retrained but its typical of hindsight, just like the De Menezes shooting its great to criticise now but the same circumstances can look like very different things at different times.

 

i.e at the time it could have looked like a young struggling family doing their best, now it looks like blatant neglect

 

That aside we are going off on a tangent, I simply dont see why Cameron had to bring up the illitercacy of the culprit as those from the lowest to the highest intellect are equally capable of such heinous acts and social services shouldnt simply be concerned with the poor or more concerned with the poor which is what I think he tried to suggest. Just take the McCanns as a perfect example of a family free of social services input who neglected their children on a regular basis.

[shaun.lawson]

Why because I dont agree with cameron's abuse of a tragedy, even the other politicians seemed a bit taken back by the blatant point scoring

 

Yes lessons need to be learned but I fail to see why cameron felt the illiteracy of the culprit was relevant

 

Surely a poor literate hooligan is just as bad, imo it was almost inverted snobbery suggesting it was a problem of only the poor.

 

As for the neglect by social services yes it needs to be investigated and anyone who cocked up sacked/retrained but its typical of hindsight, just like the De Menezes shooting its great to criticise now but the same circumstances can look like very different things at different times.

 

i.e at the time it could have looked like a young struggling family doing their best, now it looks like blatant neglect

 

That aside we are going off on a tangent, I simply dont see why Cameron had to bring up the illitercacy of the culprit as those from the lowest to the highest intellect are equally capable of such heinous acts and social services shouldnt simply be concerned with the poor or more concerned with the poor which is what I think he tried to suggest. Just take the McCanns as a perfect example of a family free of social services input who neglected their children on a regular basis.

 

No it wasn't, Prancer. Our society and especially our inner cities have all kinds of problems - and given how smug Brown and his government appear to be at present, Cameron had a point in bringing them up. The buck stops with those in charge - and in fairness, systems more than individuals. It is both shocking and yet strangely unsurprising that this sort of thing can still happen in Britain in 2008.

 

It's sad, too, that the House of Commons appeared in such a poor light today. Jeering MPs need to think about what their behaviour looks like in the light of such a tragedy. I live in hope that we'll finally get our house in order regarding child protection and child welfare - but somehow, you just know we won't.

[this_is_my_story]

How do you do that "ignore" thing on this.

 

Every time I see a thread started by prancer I have to read it just to see what absolute b0ll0cks he's talking now.

 

Need to stop it as it's taking years off my life.

 

I'm having a wee look at how to do that too, Bert. Oddly enough, it's for exactly the same reasons given by yourself.

[Rawrrrrrrr]

No it wasn't, Prancer. Our society and especially our inner cities have all kinds of problems - and given how smug Brown and his government appear to be at present, Cameron had a point in bringing them up. The buck stops with those in charge - and in fairness, systems more than individuals. It is both shocking and yet strangely unsurprising that this sort of thing can still happen in Britain in 2008.

 

It's sad, too, that the House of Commons appeared in such a poor light today. Jeering MPs need to think about what their behaviour looks like in the light of such a tragedy. I live in hope that we'll finally get our house in order regarding child protection and child welfare - but somehow, you just know we won't.

 

 

Sadly shaun your never going to rid yourself of child abuse, some neglectors are the masters of manipulation and may never get caught

 

We should look at the systems as a whole and see how those failed are in the lowest minority rather than glorifying every minority case as some sort of baton to beat those in power with.

 

Yes there may have been mismanagement in this case but even if there isnt it wont matter and someone doing their job perfectly well would be forced out to be the scapegoat.

[shaun.lawson]

Sadly shaun your never going to rid yourself of child abuse, some neglectors are the masters of manipulation and may never get caught

 

We should look at the systems as a whole and see how those failed are in the lowest minority rather than glorifying every minority case as some sort of baton to beat those in power with.

 

Yes there may have been mismanagement in this case but even if there isnt it wont matter and someone doing their job perfectly well would be forced out to be the scapegoat.

 

I actually agree with a fair amount of this, and don't think scapegoating individuals is ever anything more than a sticking plaster solution. As you say, it's about systems and processes: we can only hope they're investigated and thoroughly remedied.

[Dunks]

I'm having a wee look at how to do that too, Bert. Oddly enough, it's for exactly the same reasons given by yourself.

 

Can I block posts, emails and messages from specific users?

If there are particular members that bother you and you do not want to see their posts or receive Private Messages and Emails from them, then you can add these members to your 'Ignore List'. There are several ways to do this:

Through your User Control Panel: User CP, Settings & Options, Edit Ignore List. Then, click on their name and choose: User List, Add to Ignore List

[I P Knightley]

Why because I dont agree with cameron's abuse of a tragedy, even the other politicians seemed a bit taken back by the blatant point scoring

 

Yes lessons need to be learned but I fail to see why cameron felt the illiteracy of the culprit was relevant

 

Surely a poor literate hooligan is just as bad, imo it was almost inverted snobbery suggesting it was a problem of only the poor.

 

As for the neglect by social services yes it needs to be investigated and anyone who cocked up sacked/retrained but its typical of hindsight, just like the De Menezes shooting its great to criticise now but the same circumstances can look like very different things at different times.

 

i.e at the time it could have looked like a young struggling family doing their best, now it looks like blatant neglect

 

That aside we are going off on a tangent, I simply dont see why Cameron had to bring up the illitercacy of the culprit as those from the lowest to the highest intellect are equally capable of such heinous acts and social services shouldnt simply be concerned with the poor or more concerned with the poor which is what I think he tried to suggest. Just take the McCanns as a perfect example of a family free of social services input who neglected their children on a regular basis.

 

I almost agrrmmph... agrengit... agrrrmmumumu

 

God, I didn't think it would be this difficult

[I P Knightley]

What I was trying to say was that I think Prancer has a p-p-ppppht

 

"1Let?s be honest. This is a story about a 17-year-old girl who had no idea how to bring up a child.

 

"2It?s about a boyfriend who couldn?t read but could beat a child and 3it?s about a social services department that gets ?100 million a year and can?t look after children"

 

"In the case of failing schools we take them over. This department in Haringey, one in four positions for social workers is completely vacant. They do nothing to help struggling local schools that are failing and another child has been beaten to death"

 

I dont get what your problem is with his statement.

 

Agree with Cameron's first point- the girl was young and this might have drawn a little attention from the services if they had their eye on the ball.

 

We'll come back to point 2.

 

Agree also with point 3 - if there's all that money going in, what the hell is happening to it?

 

Point 2 is just poor oration. There is no link between literacy and child abuse and, in his effort to sound like Martin Luther King or Barack Obama, Cameron's made a tiny arse of himself. I doubt that there's anything sinister in it - not in the way that Prancer's suggested but I do have to nearly agree by saying that point 2 was a complete non-sequitur (there, by speaking Latin, I raise myself above the Hoi Polloi.)

[Deek]

The poor we boy died in August last year.

 

We are only now going to start an enquiry, the second enquiry into Haringey Social Services.

 

How many children in Haringey and elsewhere have suffered abuse through social services neglect in that time. The government should have ordered an enquiry soon after he died not 15 months later.

[bigwull22]

And meanwhile the modern world is on the verge of falling apart, no matter how tragic this case is WTF does it have to do with parliament or running the country, sums up the small minded Eton boys that they bring this into national politics.

[Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC]

The poor we boy died in August last year.

 

We are only now going to start an enquiry, the second enquiry into Haringey Social Services.

 

How many children in Haringey and elsewhere have suffered abuse through social services neglect in that time. The government should have ordered an enquiry soon after he died not 15 months later.

 

I agree, it's a total joke.

 

Got to say I couldn't even read the full article in the paper it was that sickening.

 

Total animals and I can't even think of a punishment fit enough for the trash.

[Chester™]

The poor we boy died in August last year.

 

We are only now going to start an enquiry, the second enquiry into Haringey Social Services.

 

How many children in Haringey and elsewhere have suffered abuse through social services neglect in that time. The government should have ordered an enquiry soon after he died not 15 months later.

 

They couldnt because of legal proceedings against the mother and stepfather. As far as im aware, an inquiry must not start until any criminal action takes place.

 

Though it has to be said, this is the second sickening event in Haringey after Victoria Climbie. I studied the Climbie inquiry at college last year and it was truly awful. My tutor said it was the worst she had seen in 25 years of social work and subsequent lecturing.

 

The government have failed at national and local level to implement the recommendations of the Climbie inquiry and now its coming back to seriously bite them in the arse.

[Generic Username]

I can't wait to see what medicore jail sentence they are hit with.

 

Something along the lines of 18 months each perhaps.

[Cade]

David "Dave" Cemron also got his facts wrong.

 

The woman in question is 27, not 17.

 

The boyfriend can read and the only thing that came out was that he never bothered to read the letters the cooncil sent them.

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

Surely I'm not the only one thinking that of the people who abuse and nelect children to the point where social services are involved, the overwhelming majority of them are poor and uneducated. Is it just me?

[Rawrrrrrrr]

There has also already been a preliminary investigation by the head of social services, the tories and others are demanding something more advanced.

[shaun.lawson]

Surely I'm not the only one thinking that of the people who abuse and nelect children to the point where social services are involved, the overwhelming majority of them are poor and uneducated. Is it just me?

 

The majority, sure - for all sorts of complex reasons. But abuse goes on everywhere, in middle class and upper class households too: it's just more hidden, and tragically for the victims, harder to detect.

[jamboj]

Why because I dont agree with cameron's abuse of a tragedy, even the other politicians seemed a bit taken back by the blatant point scoring

 

Yes lessons need to be learned but I fail to see why cameron felt the illiteracy of the culprit was relevant

 

Surely a poor literate hooligan is just as bad, imo it was almost inverted snobbery suggesting it was a problem of only the poor.

 

As for the neglect by social services yes it needs to be investigated and anyone who cocked up sacked/retrained but its typical of hindsight, just like the De Menezes shooting its great to criticise now but the same circumstances can look like very different things at different times.

 

i.e at the time it could have looked like a young struggling family doing their best, now it looks like blatant neglect

 

That aside we are going off on a tangent, I simply dont see why Cameron had to bring up the illitercacy of the culprit as those from the lowest to the highest intellect are equally capable of such heinous acts and social services shouldnt simply be concerned with the poor or more concerned with the poor which is what I think he tried to suggest. Just take the McCanns as a perfect example of a family free of social services input who neglected their children on a regular basis.

 

 

This is just unbelievable. Could you talk any more garbage if you tried??!!

 

I actually watched the exchange today and if anyone deserves a hiding over it, its Brown not Cameron (a man I despise btw).

 

Cameron was spelling out the situation, and the way you're banging on about this illiteracy we'd all think that this was the key point. It wasn't. This isn't a class issue, its an issue of bad performance by social services. This family were visited dozens of times and SS failed to deal with them. Cameron was asking, legitamately, why an INDEPENDENT enquiry wasn't happening.

 

Brown began cheap point scoring by accusing Cameron of playing politics with it, which quite frankly he had not done. Brown came across very, very poorly in that exchange and refused to answer simple questions, not for the first time.

 

To get on your high horse about one little remark in the context of this tragedy does not speak well of you.

[Tazio]

Cameron in one step became a tabloid politician. Which was surely the advice of his spin doctors. Get the tabloid readers on board with a bit of serious indignation.

[Deek]

They couldnt because of legal proceedings against the mother and stepfather. As far as im aware, an inquiry must not start until any criminal action takes place.

 

The enquiry should and could have started straight away. They would not have been able to make all the circumstances public due to prejudice of any trial.

 

Wait for the enquiry results to come out in a year or two's time.

[The Mighty Thor]

yet another incredible case of neglect which was not picked up on by the huge numbers of social services/social workers in time to prevent the un-necessary death of a 17 month old child.

 

Cameron was 100% correct to give Brown a bleaching on this. It's a disgusting case which highlights the huge layers of people involved in local government who do absolutely **** all and will not make a decision. There's no accountability or responsibility.

 

The Governments answer? an inquiry. a huge waste of public money that will tell us all what we already know. The Haringey social services dept management should be sacked immediately and should potentially have criminal proceedings raised against them. Instead the middle managers will be paid off with a protected pension. sickening.

 

Personally i think the first step in all this should be the immediate execution of the mother and the boyfriend. No questions, no excuses, no arguments....lethal injection. Game over.

[Deek]

Personally i think the first step in all this should be the immediate execution of the mother and the boyfriend. No questions, no excuses, no arguments....lethal injection. Game over.

 

Can we not torture them a bit first.

 

After all that is what they did to the boy.

[Chester™]

The enquiry should and could have started straight away. They would not have been able to make all the circumstances public due to prejudice of any trial.

 

Wait for the enquiry results to come out in a year or two's time.

 

Thats what im saying, Im not sure the Inquiry could have started legally, because of the evidence needed and conflicts of interest of that manner. All it needed though was a bending of the rules which should have happened but didnt because of government dithering.

[The Mighty Thor]

Can we not torture them a bit first.

 

After all that is what they did to the boy.

 

Perhaps a slow and painful death from repeated beatings would be the way to do it.

 

An eye for an eye.

 

Their actions are indefensible and therefore to me no punishment is harsh enough.

 

These vermin represent a sub culture of people in this country, feckless, un-intelligent, illiterate and immoral. They need to be eradicated.

[Tynie b]

Perhaps a slow and painful death from repeated beatings would be the way to do it.

 

An eye for an eye.

 

Their actions are indefensible and therefore to me no punishment is harsh enough.

 

These vermin represent a sub culture of people in this country, feckless, un-intelligent, illiterate and immoral. They need to be eradicated.

 

Agree 100%, I Hate this guy and the Mother...Never met them, Hope the C**** get booted tae ****, everyday of their miserable existance, in Jail, and IF they are ever allowed out, they are Kicked to death on some wet ****ty street somewhere after being gang raped by aids ridden hobos and their rabid pitbulls for about a week!!

 

Rant Over!!

[Rawrrrrrrr]

looks like another case breaking today with a 3 year old and a 3 month old stabbed to death.

 

21 year old woman (media think mother) arrested.

[Deek]

looks like another case breaking today with a 3 year old and a 3 month old stabbed to death.

 

21 year old woman (media think mother) arrested.

 

I dont think it will hold comparison with the Haringey case. Probably a woman suffering from Post Natal depression, very sad. But will wait and see before committing.

[monkfish1979]

These vermin represent a sub culture of people in this country, feckless, un-intelligent, illiterate and immoral. They need to be eradicated.

 

Word. If they behave like animals, put them down like animals. You can guarantee that they won't come out of prison reformed. How they can live with themselves after torturing an infant to death is totally beyond me.

[Boris]

Cameron in one step became a tabloid politician. Which was surely the advice of his spin doctors. Get the tabloid readers on board with a bit of serious indignation.

 

Beats having to have policies...

[richiehmfc]

Beats having to have policies...

 

Completley agree, the tories are doing their best to critise every Labour policy or shortfalling instead of promoting their own policys.

 

The bottom line is Labour have spent the last 10 years getting the UK out of the mire the Tories had put us in.

 

Also the fact Cameron got the facts wrong over the case are pretty poor

[nikki 74]

I agree, it's a total joke.

 

Got to say I couldn't even read the full article in the paper it was that sickening.

 

Total animals and I can't even think of a punishment fit enough for the trash.

 

I couldn,t finih reading the article either, I felt ill reading about the abuse that poor kid endured during his short and tragic life.

 

No doubt the mother and the step father will get no more than a few months in prison.

[andi17]

Agree 100%, I Hate this guy and the Mother...Never met them, Hope the C**** get booted tae ****, everyday of their miserable existance, in Jail, and IF they are ever allowed out, they are Kicked to death on some wet ****ty street somewhere after being gang raped by aids ridden hobos and their rabid pitbulls for about a week!!

 

Rant Over!!

 

I agree with everyword you say mate but you like me know he will get his own nice wee cell probably wi a telly or a playstation and do abou five years inside.On his release he will probably get a new I.D. that i,m afraid is british justice nowadays.The wife likes to watch these programmes about worldwide hellhole prisons maybe we should build one for all these **** for how much longer can we keep letting these horrific incidents go by and treating them with a slap on the wrist.Another thing don,t call these **** animals an animal would not act that way towards it,s young.

[Deek]

The bottom line is Labour have spent the last 10 years getting the UK out of the mire the Tories had put us in.

 

Also the fact Cameron got the facts wrong over the case are pretty poor

 

You are having a laugh, the Labour government inherited a thriving economy in 97. They just kept it ticking over with the same philosophy the Tories used.

 

You must be harking back to the 80's when the Tories had the country in a mess but certainly not ten years ago.

 

As for Cameron getting the facts wrong over the case, what facts were these.

 

From the BBC here is what he said.

 

In the Commons earlier Mr Cameron had urged the government to intervene saying it was "completely unacceptable" that an internal review into Baby P's death had been undertaken by the council's own children's services director.

 

He said "nobody is taking responsibility, nobody has resigned" and added of the woman in charge of the review: "She cannot possibly investigate the failure of her own department."

 

The prime minister said people had been "horrified and angered" by the story of Baby P's death, but the government would decide what action to take having just received the full report from Haringey on Wednesday morning.

 

The Prime Minister then said an independent review would take place.

[upthehill]

I'm amazed that anybody thinks Brown should not be challenged on this, the idea of PMQs is to hold the Government to account, Cameron has done this, and some folks are baiting him for it?

 

What would they have had him ask this week?

[Goldstone Wonder]

Cameron in one step became a tabloid politician. Which was surely the advice of his spin doctors. Get the tabloid readers on board with a bit of serious indignation.

 

Is the correct answer. Not like him to jump on the bandwagon. He sounded like Littlejohn or Jon Gaunt on TalkSport. Statesmanlike my erse.

 

I thought Brown was perfectly in his rights to put the slimey little toad in his place.

[Dazo]

The system didn't fail it was the people working within that system on this occasion IMO. Obviously we don't know the full facts however after repeated visits to the hospital and from SS themselves this poor child was allowed home time and time again.

 

The social workers and doctor involved should be facing charges IMO.

[BlackJAC?]

The system didn't fail it was the people working within that system on this occasion IMO. Obviously we don't know the full facts however after repeated visits to the hospital and from SS themselves this poor child was allowed home time and time again.

 

The social workers and doctor involved should be facing charges IMO.

 

I'm seriously not being a smart arse here, but the social workers and community doctors etc are the system thus the system failed. If not, what exactly is your definition of our child protection 'system'? A piece of paper, some text saved onto a PC? Your post makes no sense whatsoever.

[Deek]

I'm seriously not being a smart arse here, but the social workers and community doctors etc are the system thus the system failed. If not, what exactly is your definition of our child protection 'system'? A piece of paper, some text saved onto a PC? Your post makes no sense whatsoever.

 

You are right and you are wrong. The system sets the standards, but human beings carry out the actions and that is where it falls down.

 

It is like most accidents, they are caused by human error. I am not saying the death was an accident but the system failures that should have prevented it were human, not deliberate but negligent and culpable.

[Dazo]

I'm seriously not being a smart arse here, but the social workers and community doctors etc are the system thus the system failed. If not, what exactly is your definition of our child protection 'system'? A piece of paper, some text saved onto a PC? Your post makes no sense whatsoever.

 

 

I think your splitting hairs to be a smart arse. The child was recognised as at risk so the system worked at that stage. The child who had 50 injuries was getting twice weekly visits from the social services. The person who made those visits made a shockingly bad judgement call by allowing the child to remain in that house. If he had been removed he would be alive today. With the information at hand can you think off a single reason why the child should have stayed in that house ?

 

You can't say the system failed just because individuals made grave errors.

[Dazo]

You are right and you are wrong. The system sets the standards, but human beings carry out the actions and that is where it falls down.

 

It is like most accidents, they are caused by human error. I am not saying the death was an accident but the system failures that should have prevented it were human, not deliberate but negligent and culpable.

 

Exactly.