A League without the OF

[The Marooney Meister]

Just looking at the League table and once again it shows what a great competetive league we would have without the Old Firm. OK the points shown include results against them as well, but as most teams get slaughtered I don't think it would make a great difference to the current points total.

 

Team P W D L F A W D L F A GD PTS

1 Dundee Utd 11 3 1 1 8 4 1 3 2 7 9 2 16

2 Motherwell 11 3 1 2 10 9 2 0 3 6 7 0 16

3 Kilmarnock 11 3 0 2 5 5 2 1 3 6 7 -1 16

4 Hibernian 11 2 1 2 6 8 2 2 2 6 7 -3 15

5 Aberdeen 11 1 1 4 4 8 3 1 1 6 4 -2 14

6 Hearts 11 3 1 2 8 8 1 1 3 4 9 -5 14

7 St Mirren 11 1 3 1 2 2 2 0 4 6 9 -3 12

8 Falkirk 11 2 1 3 7 6 1 1 3 7 11-3 11

9 Inverness CT 11 1 1 4 7 9 2 0 3 5 9 -6 10

 

-------------------------------------------

 

10 Hamilton 11 1 0 4 6 9 2 0 4 4 12 -11 9

 

Pity we didn't get shot of them when we had the chance

[Seymour M Hersh]

A league without the bigot brothers would be a wonderful one in my humble opinion.

[Martin]

It would be the best thing to ever happen to Scottish football. The crowds would come flooding back to every ground because the vast majority of matches would be meaningful.

 

Even if some sort of tv revenue/sponsorship was lost, it wouldn't matter because teams earn very little as it is.

[Victorian]

i too would love to see them kok off somewhere else and leave everyone else to enjoy a real sporting contest of a league.

 

i honestly believe the rhetoric which is normally trooped out about the game dying a slow death without them is a lot of BS. there are quite a few teams who have fan bases which are big enough to take on the mantle of being the 'big' clubs, especially if there are regular trophy wins to be had.

 

just think of this imaginary utopia.... level playing field for all.... bigotry and anti-social behaviour vastly reduced.... chances of tangible success for a lot of teams...

 

get them launched.

[Tiberius Stinkfinger]

i too would love to see them kok off somewhere else and leave everyone else to enjoy a real sporting contest of a league.

 

i honestly believe the rhetoric which is normally trooped out about the game dying a slow death without them is a lot of BS. there are quite a few teams who have fan bases which are big enough to take on the mantle of being the 'big' clubs, especially if there are regular trophy wins to be had.

 

just think of this imaginary utopia.... level playing field for all.... bigotry and anti-social behaviour vastly reduced.... chances of tangible success for a lot of teams...

 

get them launched.

 

 

 

It would only work if they both slithered off to their own country.

[Buffalo Bill]

I would love it if they both got to ****.

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

[Victorian]

It would only work if they both slithered off to their own country.

they can slither off to the moon as far as i care mate, would just love to see the back of them.

[Deevers]

It would be the best thing to ever happen to Scottish football. The crowds would come flooding back to every ground because the vast majority of matches would be meaningful.

 

Even if some sort of tv revenue/sponsorship was lost, it wouldn't matter because teams earn very little as it is.

 

There will always be TV sponsership of some sort - these channels have got to fill their schedules with something - and something that people will watch.

 

The Old Firm continually threaten to jump ship and use this as a threat to every other club in Scotland - maybe it's about time their bluff was called.

[Buffalo Bill]

I believe that even without the Old Firm, good players would want to play in Scotland.

 

Tynecastle is geographical terms, is just a hundred odd miles from the Premiership and the Championship - the first and (I think) fifth biggest leagues in Europe.

 

If players can perform in a Scottish football, with a Scottish climate, and settle in a British city, then they can perform in England; and therefore English clubs will always be sniffing around, which in turn makes the SPL attractive to players.

 

As for the money we make off the Old Firm, I'd rather do without it, even if it meant losing two players off our squad/wage structure.

 

Who wants to listen to two hours of IRA chants?

 

Not I.

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

[Jam Tarts 1874]

It would be great to see the back of the cancer that is the old firm and their fans. It's not going to happen anytime soon though. There was a time a few years ago when the EPL was struggling that a few down south were talking of wanting Celtic and Rangers. I think it is safe to say that the EPL now has no need whatsoever for Scotland's national disgrace as part of their game.

[Deevers]

It would be great to see the back of the cancer that is the old firm and their fans. It's not going to happen anytime soon though. There was a time a few years ago when the EPL was struggling that a few down south were talking of wanting Celtic and Rangers. I think it is safe to say that the EPL now has no need whatsoever for Scotland's national disgrace as part of their game.

 

Yep, I think that "Manchester" finished any possible chance that either had of getting into any league in England for the foreseeable future. With that in mind it's maybe about time that the other SPL clubs got together and squeezed some sort of meaningful changes out of them while that situation prevails.

[Victorian]

the only negative i can see would be the european co-efficient and probable loss of CL place(s) and/or europa league places.

 

but hey, who cares?... all the other teams wont miss the CL places because it's somethig which is unattainable anyway (2005/2006 aside). our teams are normally rank in the uefa cup anyway.

 

with a more competitive league the country as a whole can find it's own level amongst the other leagues in europe and be allocated places accordingly. surely the remaining scottish teams will end up no worse off than the likes of the baltic states and some of the other smaller leagues in europe.

[jimallheart]

maybe not so remote:- what if the olympics put in a GB team in 2012. (seems likely although it will be a english team playing under the GB banner-other national associations are not interested as they know what will happen).

then the caribean, african countries and east european countries vote for the UK to have one representive as we had one in the olympics.

both highly probably. Then how do you qualify for europe. not a english league or a scottish league therefore must be a british league. my guess is that would be a 20 team league. 16 english clubs, 2 scottish, 1 welsh and 1 Northern Ireland or 18 english and 2 scottish. therefore in say season 2013/2014 the 2 top placed scottish team would qualify for the 2014/2015 british league. as it stands most likely the OF. but what if and this is dreaming we are one of the top two in that season. debts would be wiped out in two seasons (even if we got relegated first season-parachute payments for the 2nd season)

[The Marooney Meister]

the only negative i can see would be the european co-efficient and probable loss of CL place(s) and/or europa league places.

 

but hey, who cares?... all the other teams wont miss the CL places because it's somethig which is unattainable anyway (2005/2006 aside). our teams are normally rank in the uefa cup anyway.

 

with a more competitive league the country as a whole can find it's own level amongst the other leagues in europe and be allocated places accordingly. surely the remaining scottish teams will end up no worse off than the likes of the baltic states and some of the other smaller leagues in europe.

 

Yep I agree our european co-effiecient would suffer in the short term, but at least improve the chances of playing there for teams like ourselves in the long run.

 

I also wonder if another 2 teams from the remainder would take over and become dominant forces, like say Hearts and Aberdeen. Then we'd be back to square one

[Seymour M Hersh]

[/b]

 

There will always be TV sponsership of some sort - these channels have got to fill their schedules with something - and something that people will watch.

 

The Old Firm continually threaten to jump ship and use this as a threat to every other club in Scotland - maybe it's about time their bluff was called.

 

Ah but it wa called a few years ago over TV rights but Saint Eddie Thompson among others capitulated under pressure from the infirm. The same would happen again imo. You only have to look at Nancy Boyle's love-fest with der hun to know that.

[Alan_R]

if only.

 

As a result I reckon the Scotland national team would benefit aswell.

 

Even with them here I still think as someone else said 'their bluff needs to be called' and the scottish leagues given a massive shake up.

 

I'd like to see bigger divisions wether that meant losing a division or 2 or even granting more spaces for the big junior teams to be introduced to the third division. As there is very little difference in standard anyway. Admitadly it might not pan out perfectly in the first season or so but I think it would improve the leagues in the long run. All the best leagues have big divisions.

[Piper X]

BEST thing that could happen to Scottish football, NO doubts whatsoever. As some have pointed out, we would take a hit on revenues etc, but not as much as first thoughts would suggest.

I think the fan base for all the other teams would dramatically increase, due to the tighter more interesting league aspect. Theres also a possibility that a lot of the OF glory hunting fans (cuz most of them, imo, are just that - or staunch biggots - but thats a debate for another thread/day), will end up watching their Saturday football at other grounds around the country. The price of the tickets for Ibrox and Parkhead would, I assume, need to be increased to accomodate the wages/travel/additional expenses incurred in order for the ugly sisters to continue in their chosen "superleague". Not to mention the additional costs for their traveling support. Even if they dont end up coming to other teams - its no big loss!! At least we wont need to listen to them spouting their utter garbage and pleading themselves as innocent victims everytime the tables are turned.

 

Give me a tight league with full stadia against the likes of Hibs, Aberdeen, Utd or any of the others who on their day can bring a decent passionate support, and anyone of them capable of winning the league!! (in theory!)

[Randy Marsh]

It would be the best thing to ever happen to Scottish football. The crowds would come flooding back to every ground because the vast majority of matches would be meaningful.

 

 

Thats true.

 

You just have to look at the leagues in Sweden and Norway this season. Both very competitive, going down to the wire, correct number of teams and have been different winners in the last few seasons.

 

But more importantly - they dont have a pathetic format in place just to suit two of their teams.

 

THEY PLAY EACH OTHER HOME AND AWAY ONCE JUST LIKE EVERY NORMAL FOOTBALL LEAGUE ALL AROUND THE WORLD!

[Smoked-Glass]

A league without the bigot brothers would be a wonderful one in my humble opinion.

 

I'm going to disagree actually. I think we need the old firm to make the league exciting. It's great to watch the old firm lose and it's brilliant when you beat them. If it weren't for them you can bet that Setanta (and sky before them) wouldn't be interested in our league.

 

If the old filth leave and join another the league we would STILL be stuck with them because their home games would be still be played in Glasgow and all their fans would be there still walking the streets on match days (and other days)

 

If hearts won the league we wouldn't really be classed as the best in Scotland because everyone would point to celtic and rangers being in the premiership or wherever.

 

 

Another point. Would you rather watch Dundee united v Rangers or Dundee united v St mirren as the big live tv game of the weekend? i tune in to setanta to watch someone take on the old firm.

[Flimsy]

Team P W D L F A W D L F A GD PTS

 

1 Motherwell 9 3 1 1 8 5 2 0 2 5 5 3 16

2 Kilmarnock 9 3 0 1 4 2 2 1 2 5 5 2 16

3 Hibernian 9 2 1 1 6 5 2 2 1 4 3 2 15

4 Dundee Utd 9 3 0 1 7 3 1 2 2 4 6 2 14

5 Hearts 9 3 1 1 8 6 1 1 2 4 7 -1 14

6 Aberdeen 9 1 0 4 3 7 3 1 0 4 1 -1 13

7 Falkirk 9 2 1 2 7 5 1 1 2 7 8 1 11

8 Inverness CT 9 1 1 3 6 7 2 0 2 5 4 0 10

9 St Mirren 9 0 3 1 1 2 2 0 3 6 8 -3 9

-------------------------------------------

10 Hamilton 9 1 0 3 5 6 2 0 3 4 8 -5 9

 

League table if Old Firm results were removed. Crap quality but unbelievably competitive. If the Old Firm left the SPL, Scotland's co-efficient would undoubtedly suffer but even the lowest ranked countries get 4 european places so there would actually be an extra european place up for grabs.

[Coco]

The competitions would be devalued without the 2 biggest teams in Scotland.

 

One illustration is the woes of Scottish club rugby after the best players were taken by the district sides. Those best players had been at the best clubs beforehand - so we would expect a general levelling up of standards and interest by rugby watchers? No what we have seen is the disappearance of interest in club rugby.

 

It is spectacularly brilliant as a Hearts fan to win one of the big competitions. I guess it was the same for the likes of Killie when they won the Cup. Even Hibs fans have been able to enjoy the League Cup wins. The wins would be less exciting without the OF.

 

In addition, the TV money would disappear very quickly. The league would become like the equivalent of Welsh/Irish leagues.

[Seymour M Hersh]

I'm going to disagree actually. I think we need the old firm to make the league exciting. It's great to watch the old firm lose and it's brilliant when you beat them. If it weren't for them you can bet that Setanta (and sky before them) wouldn't be interested in our league.

 

If the old filth leave and join another the league we would STILL be stuck with them because their home games would be still be played in Glasgow and all their fans would be there still walking the streets on match days (and other days)

 

If hearts won the league we wouldn't really be classed as the best in Scotland because everyone would point to celtic and rangers being in the premiership or wherever.

 

 

Another point. Would you rather watch Dundee united v Rangers or Dundee united v St mirren as the big live tv game of the weekend? i tune in to setanta to watch someone take on the old firm.

 

Fair enough you are entitled to your opinion. I reckon you'll be in the minority though.

[Jambo66]

the only negative i can see would be the european co-efficient and probable loss of CL place(s) and/or europa league places.

 

but hey, who cares?... all the other teams wont miss the CL places because it's somethig which is unattainable anyway (2005/2006 aside). our teams are normally rank in the uefa cup anyway.

 

with a more competitive league the country as a whole can find it's own level amongst the other leagues in europe and be allocated places accordingly. surely the remaining scottish teams will end up no worse off than the likes of the baltic states and some of the other smaller leagues in europe.

 

Actually, I'm not sure that it would result in much change in the short term. The only way that would have an immediate impact would be if UEFA removed the OF's effect on the coefficient for the last 5 years. I'm not sure they would do that given that the coefficient points were undoubtedly earned while the OF were part of the SFA.

 

That means that in the first season, there would be no change - ie 2 teams in the CL and 3 in the UEFA Cup. How long that remained the case would depend on results.

 

Given the high likelihood of European football if you play for an SPL side, the OF leaving might make the SPL even more attractive in the short term to decent players. If so, the whole thing becomes circular - better players, better results, better coefficient etc etc.

 

The main downside would be the fact that the OF would have (presumably) Premiership teams up in Glasgow every weekend dragging more and more glory seekers to go to watch them.

 

However, that might not be a problem if after the OF resign from the SFA, they are simply advised that the SFA will not allow foreign league football matches to be played in Scotland on the basis that it would damage the integrity of the game in Scotland. Unlikely -yes, but what possible benefit could there be to the SFA and every other team in Scotland to allowing the OF to play their English games in Scotland?

[Coco]

Actually, I'm not sure that it would result in much change in the short term. The only way that would have an immediate impact would be if UEFA removed the OF's effect on the coefficient for the last 5 years. I'm not sure they would do that given that the coefficient points were undoubtedly earned while the OF were part of the SFA.

 

That means that in the first season, there would be no change - ie 2 teams in the CL and 3 in the UEFA Cup. How long that remained the case would depend on results.

 

Given the high likelihood of European football if you play for an SPL side, the OF leaving might make the SPL even more attractive in the short term to decent players. If so, the whole thing becomes circular - better players, better results, better coefficient etc etc.

 

The main downside would be the fact that the OF would have (presumably) Premiership teams up in Glasgow every weekend dragging more and more glory seekers to go to watch them.

 

However, that might not be a problem if after the OF resign from the SFA, they are simply advised that the SFA will not allow foreign league football matches to be played in Scotland on the basis that it would damage the integrity of the game in Scotland. Unlikely -yes, but what possible benefit could there be to the SFA and every other team in Scotland to allowing the OF to play their English games in Scotland?

 

Every team left in Scotland would have to cut costs - player wages - because of the loss of TV revenue.

 

Unpalatable truth is that OF fans watching Sky/Setanta are the reasons why the TV cameras are there and the money is paid.

[Randy Marsh]

League table if Old Firm results were removed. Crap quality but unbelievably competitive. If the Old Firm left the SPL, Scotland's co-efficient would undoubtedly suffer but even the lowest ranked countries get 4 european places so there would actually be an extra european place up for grabs.

 

I noticed that as well - an extra Intertoto spot for lower ranked nations. That would mean an early qualifying round for the new Europa Cup next year.

 

That would suit us though - no point in the champions league as all teams would be out of there depth in it anyway - just like Rangers and Celtic.

[Martin]

The competitions would be devalued without the 2 biggest teams in Scotland.

 

One illustration is the woes of Scottish club rugby after the best players were taken by the district sides. Those best players had been at the best clubs beforehand - so we would expect a general levelling up of standards and interest by rugby watchers? No what we have seen is the disappearance of interest in club rugby.

 

It is spectacularly brilliant as a Hearts fan to win one of the big competitions. I guess it was the same for the likes of Killie when they won the Cup. Even Hibs fans have been able to enjoy the League Cup wins. The wins would be less exciting without the OF.

 

In addition, the TV money would disappear very quickly. The league would become like the equivalent of Welsh/Irish leagues.

 

It is brilliant to see a club outside of the OF win a trophy but how often does it happen? It's happening less and less.

 

Even if TV money did disappear, it would be replaced by money from fans that actually go to games and who turn up because the match is meaningful. Plus I don't think our league would ever become like the Welsh/Irish league because there is too much support from other teams. Teams like Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen and Dundee United all still get pretty good crowds, despite the fact that in the main, we have very little to play for.

 

The game in this country is in a state. Two teams are bored because it's too easy for them and the rest of us are bored because we have little to play for.

 

Yes you might miss playing the OF, but imagine matches against Hibs, Aberdeen, etc when it actually means something.

[Gigolo-Aunt]

Every team left in Scotland would have to cut costs - player wages - because of the loss of TV revenue.

 

Unpalatable truth is that OF fans watching Sky/Setanta are the reasons why the TV cameras are there and the money is paid.

 

Which shows with every week Celtic or Rangers being the away game on Sentanta. Not sure how much they would stick around after their contract if the OF split. They would probably try and get out of the contract they are in.

 

Have no love for the OF, but you cant beat sticking it up them.

[Victorian]

Every team left in Scotland would have to cut costs - player wages - because of the loss of TV revenue.

 

Unpalatable truth is that OF fans watching Sky/Setanta are the reasons why the TV cameras are there and the money is paid.

cost cutting as a result of decreased club turnover isn't necessarily all that bad a thing. wages have gone a bit out of control and the percentage of turnover that some clubs spend on player wages has become too big.

 

if you work on the assumption that a football mad country like scotland, with the population that scotland has, will always continue to produce decent young players year on year, then most of the SPL teams can gradually rationalise their spending. it's got to be a good thing if teams can get more and more young, local players in their squads who wont eat up thousands of pounds of fans' money every week. they would still get a bloody good wage at most clubs.

 

if scotland can have hearts, hibs, aberdeen, dundee united, motherwell, kilmarnock, falkirk and some others all competing year on year for the trophies, all playing on a level playing field basis.... the crowds will come back.

[alwaysthereinspirit]

Just looking at the League table and once again it shows what a great competetive league we would have without the Old Firm. OK the points shown include results against them as well, but as most teams get slaughtered I don't think it would make a great difference to the current points total.

 

Team P W D L F A W D L F A GD PTS

1 Dundee Utd 11 3 1 1 8 4 1 3 2 7 9 2 16

2 Motherwell 11 3 1 2 10 9 2 0 3 6 7 0 16

3 Kilmarnock 11 3 0 2 5 5 2 1 3 6 7 -1 16

4 Hibernian 11 2 1 2 6 8 2 2 2 6 7 -3 15

5 Aberdeen 11 1 1 4 4 8 3 1 1 6 4 -2 14

6 Hearts 11 3 1 2 8 8 1 1 3 4 9 -5 14

7 St Mirren 11 1 3 1 2 2 2 0 4 6 9 -3 12

8 Falkirk 11 2 1 3 7 6 1 1 3 7 11-3 11

9 Inverness CT 11 1 1 4 7 9 2 0 3 5 9 -6 10

 

-------------------------------------------

 

10 Hamilton 11 1 0 4 6 9 2 0 4 4 12 -11 9

 

Pity we didn't get shot of them when we had the chance

 

Wow. We really do suck. We can still only get 6th.

[JamboSean]

I think crowds in the SPL would drop heavily and the SPL would end up like the Welsh and Northern Irish leagues.

 

The Old Firm already have a ridiculous pulling power over the SPL clubs as it is. Can you imagine what it would be like when they'd have Chelsea, Man U, Liverpool and Arsenal through in Glasgow?

[Cut The Crap]

The competitions would be devalued without the 2 biggest teams in Scotland.

 

One illustration is the woes of Scottish club rugby after the best players were taken by the district sides. Those best players had been at the best clubs beforehand - so we would expect a general levelling up of standards and interest by rugby watchers? No what we have seen is the disappearance of interest in club rugby.

 

It is spectacularly brilliant as a Hearts fan to win one of the big competitions. I guess it was the same for the likes of Killie when they won the Cup. Even Hibs fans have been able to enjoy the League Cup wins. The wins would be less exciting without the OF.

 

In addition, the TV money would disappear very quickly. The league would become like the equivalent of Welsh/Irish leagues.

 

Looking on the bright side, if the standard dropped as low as say the A-Lyga, perhaps VR's "masterplan" would stand a chance of working?

[The Marooney Meister]

Wow. We really do suck. We can still only get 6th.

 

And therein lies the beauty, a win this weekend and we could go top

[The Marooney Meister]

I think crowds in the SPL would drop heavily and the SPL would end up like the Welsh and Northern Irish leagues.

 

The Old Firm already have a ridiculous pulling power over the SPL clubs as it is. Can you imagine what it would be like when they'd have Chelsea, Man U, Liverpool and Arsenal through in Glasgow?

 

I think you underestimate the number of fans out there who are not Celtic or Rangers supporters. What fanbase do you think makes up most of the Scotland team support, I doubt it's the glory hunters from either of these clubs.

 

OK, so every week could be a sell out at Parkhead and Ibrox with the lure of them playing the big guns from England. But is that a huge difference from what we have anyway? They can only fill the stadium and many 'fans' would not be able to get tickets unless they were season ticket holders meaning they are more likely to start watching their local team again.

[john brownlee]

It is brilliant to see a club outside of the OF win a trophy but how often does it happen? It's happening less and less.

 

Even if TV money did disappear, it would be replaced by money from fans that actually go to games and who turn up because the match is meaningful. Plus I don't think our league would ever become like the Welsh/Irish league because there is too much support from other teams. Teams like Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen and Dundee United all still get pretty good crowds, despite the fact that in the main, we have very little to play for.

 

The game in this country is in a state. Two teams are bored because it's too easy for them and the rest of us are bored because we have little to play for.

 

Yes you might miss playing the OF, but imagine matches against Hibs, Aberdeen, etc when it actually means something.

 

good points might I add that when teams are winning their crowds do go up Hearts v dundee if both teams at the top of the pile with no old firm complete sellout IMOP

 

TV wise lets face the TV companies are really srcapping the barrell with games they show on scottish/british tv, blue whaterver belgum non descript euro games nobody has much intrest

[Tott]

If the OF did move on (lest face it aint going to happen)

I would hope Hearts had the ambition to move with them.

 

Have no time for the OF,but wether you like it or not scotland needs them .

 

If beating giants like Motherwell or Killie etc is to be the highlight of the season..no thanks.

[Sparky]

I don't think the Old Firm moving to another league would have any benefits. The remaining Scottish competition would be classed as a second class league while the majority of coverage would remain on the OF in their new setting. the main effect would be the loss of revenue and chance to pitch ourselves against those two. The newspaper and TV coverage would be the equivalent of the OF playing Champions League games every weekend while the SPL was the 'intertoto cup' competition.

 

On the other hand, the OF ceasing to exist completely would revitalise the scottish game and produce a stronger club system full of excitement and skill. It'll never happen though:(

[Buffalo Bill]

Sunday brought out a hatred in many of us. Having to listen to two hours of sub-human IRA chanting wasn't fun. And perhaps my earlier posts on this thread was a reaction to that as much as anything.

 

But my mate Gigalo Aunt has a point: it is great when we get it right up them, sending them home with their Buckfast between their legs.

 

Maybe the real reason so many of us were so frustrated by Sunday that we couldn't 'get it up them'.

 

And I think the major reason for that is because of what we are, as opposed to what they are.

 

We meekly surrendered to Celtic on the pitch because of three years of mis-management. In that time, we've lost players who knew what this fixture was about; we went through a plethora of stooge managers; and we're left with guys on the pitch who aren't fit to lace the boots of the opposition.

 

Since 2005, Hearts have passed up the chance to buy guys who would've competed in this fixture. We could've had Boyd, Naysmith, Clarkson, MacDonald, Potter, Gow, Severin, Anderson, Barr, Black, Robson etc etc wth a little foresight and a modest outlay before the Old Firm came sniffing along.

 

Instead we bought Beslija, Makela, Nade, Pinilla, Goncalves and a whole load of other sh ite.

 

We hated Sunday not just for what we were forced to endure: but by what we missed out on ourselves.

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

[TNCASTLE]

I imagine there will eventually be a European Super League (a proper one) unlike ECL and "Europa Cup" (what's that all about??) with the powerfull and monied in it. There ARE no competitive leagues really anymore. England 4, Scotland 2, Portugal 2 Holland 3 France 3 Spain 3 Italy 3/4. Germany 1/2 clubs really.There might be 2 tiers in that to involve more good quality one-off European teams (Fenerbache, Panathinaikos, Zenit etc).

With some method and "hope" for all European clubs to aspire and access that level, we would have success. Scotland AND England would be better with the "big six" gone that is obviuos.

I am one of the people who think Scotland would thrive on the removal of Bigot Bros and sponsorship would be attracted. If they were to stay then as in Enlgand there must be a plan to lift the quality of the pack to compete. How??????

[Gregorski]

And what's most important is that with them both gone, we're back in the top six!!!!!

 

:band::band::508::surprise:

[walton1983]

And therein lies the beauty, a win this weekend and we could go top

 

Not quite as Aberdeen play Dundee Utd and whatever the result one of them will be above Hearts. 4th possible though.

[Buffalo Bill]

That's kind of how I see it.

 

Now don't get me wrong, it would be much better if the OF never existed. Unfortunately, they do. If they were to p*ss off to somewhere else they would take there fans and the TV revenue.

 

I also think if for example they went to the EPL, that youngsters would be more inclined to follow them, and possibly other teams in the EPL, because they are competing in the top league and the SPL would be viewed as almost junior football.

 

Maybe I'm wrong and the crowds would return because in theory we all had a chance of winning a competition. However, longer term I think it would just become like the Welsh leagues.

 

That said I wish they never existed in the first place.

 

I don't think they will ever get a move out of the SPL though.

 

But have the Welsh or Irish league got clubs with the stature of Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen and Dundee Utd?

 

And would the TV money be so reduced, that we would ending buying our players from Pumpherson Juniors?

 

What is our wage bill at the moment?

 

I bet we could have a better team if we stopped wasting most of it on expensive foreign duds.

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

[Flimsy]

Scottish football could never drop to the level of the Welsh leagues, even without TV money. You are comparing clubs with long histories and strong base supports in Scotland with tiny clubs who can barely muster 300 spectators at their games in Wales. FWIW I think Scotland would be a middle ranking country without the Old Firm, perhaps comparable to the Scandinavian nations. This is all fun speculation anyway as the Old Firm are going nowhere.

[Buffalo Bill]

Scottish football could never drop to the level of the Welsh leagues, even without TV money. You are comparing clubs with long histories and strong base supports in Scotland with tiny clubs who can barely muster 300 spectators at their games in Wales. FWIW I think Scotland would be a middle ranking country without the Old Firm, perhaps comparable to the Scandinavian nations. This is all fun speculation anyway as the Old Firm are going nowhere.

 

I genuinely believe that with or without the Old Firm that our close proximity to the Premiership is a huge advantage.

 

Players all over Europe want to live in Britain. I think if it ever did happen, we could have a great league.

 

However, had this thread been around in September 2005, I think most of us would've liked to have kept the Old Firm, because we were competing against them. Going back to Gigalo's point, there is nowt better than stuffing them.

 

If we were able to beat and compete with them, would we really want to lose them?

 

If we were able to get fairly regular wins and draws agaisnt the Old Firm then I would be well chuffed.

 

...and my final point is that it wouldn't take a genius to compete with them again.

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

[Rods]

I for one would love to see the big off the infirm.

 

I am also a realist and could never see it happening

 

For me the league structure has to change 16 teams, playing each other twice.

 

The current setup is deigned for the old firm to win due to there large and qaulity squads.

 

I may be wrong but if we checked back the stats over the seasons. Teams like us hibs,aberdeen,Dundee united and motherwell. Will have won least once against either of the OF during a season.

 

I think the league would be more tighter due to this.

[Dr. Bapswent]

The problem with the league and the OF, is that in order to maintain any respectability and level of competition throughout the world, we really do need the money the OF bring to the league.

 

The problem is, that the OF know this, and have managed to position themselves so that they scoop the lions share, and the rest feed of the scraps.

Scraps that are larger than we would achieve without the OF, allowing us to keep an inflated league status, but not big enough for us to ever grow beyond a level that would in any way upset the OF's dominance.

 

We could ruin the entire leagues status if we remove the OF.

 

We are held down by the OF if we don't.

[Carl Spackler]

The competitions would be devalued without the 2 biggest teams in Scotland.

 

One illustration is the woes of Scottish club rugby after the best players were taken by the district sides. Those best players had been at the best clubs beforehand - so we would expect a general levelling up of standards and interest by rugby watchers? No what we have seen is the disappearance of interest in club rugby.

 

It is spectacularly brilliant as a Hearts fan to win one of the big competitions. I guess it was the same for the likes of Killie when they won the Cup. Even Hibs fans have been able to enjoy the League Cup wins. The wins would be less exciting without the OF.

 

In addition, the TV money would disappear very quickly. The league would become like the equivalent of Welsh/Irish leagues.

 

Simple comparison with Rugby is not really valid. Whilst the fact that the "top" players no longer play club rugby in Scotland has potentially had some effect the reason spectator numbers are down in rugby is more complex. The move away from amateur rugby run by bona-fide community clubs to a more professional setup is the main reason for the disenchantment of many older club rugby fans. Rugby is a different thing and probably has more in common with junior football than senior football. Senior football has been professionally organised since before most people alive now were born.

 

All teams outside the OF have one thing in common. We are already considered "provincial", an incredibly patronising term. I'm all for trying to rise above the OF but I'd quite happily see the pair of them disappear to a European league.

[Flimsy]

I genuinely believe that with or without the Old Firm that our close proximity to the Premiership is a huge advantage.

 

Players all over Europe want to live in Britain. I think if it ever did happen, we could have a great league.

 

However, had this thread been around in September 2005, I think most of us would've liked to have kept the Old Firm, because we were competing against them. Going back to Gigalo's point, there is nowt better than stuffing them.

 

If we were able to beat and compete with them, would we really want to lose them?

 

If we were able to get fairly regular wins and draws agaisnt the Old Firm then I would be well chuffed.

 

...and my final point is that it wouldn't take a genius to compete with them again.

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

 

It WOULD take a genius to compete with the Old Firm over the course of a season without incurring a crippling debt in the process. Several teams have now tried it and it is fun for a few months but seriously damaging to the accounts once the dust settles.

 

The Old Firm's crowds are currently as high as they've ever been and they still feed on the tens of thousands of religiously and politically motivated morons from all over Scotland and the rest of the world who buy tons of their merchandise. Money talks in modern football and no other Scottish team can compete with them financially, perhaps the odd shock win here and there but one look at the league table shows the true state of affairs.

[Jimmy McNulty]

It would be the best thing to ever happen to Scottish football. The crowds would come flooding back to every ground because the vast majority of matches would be meaningful.

 

Even if some sort of tv revenue/sponsorship was lost, it wouldn't matter because teams earn very little as it is.

 

Yet, whenever this is talked about in the media, and even FourFourTwo recently, the report always says it would kill Scottish football (e.g. Scott Booth).

 

I, for one, would love to see a league without the OF.

[Craig_]

And what's most important is that with them both gone, we're back in the top six!!!!!

 

:band::band::508::surprise:

 

Surely with both of them gone, it'd be a top five?!

[jamcow1]

Just looking at the League table and once again it shows what a great competetive league we would have without the Old Firm. OK the points shown include results against them as well, but as most teams get slaughtered I don't think it would make a great difference to the current points total.

 

Team P W D L F A W D L F A GD PTS

1 Dundee Utd 11 3 1 1 8 4 1 3 2 7 9 2 16

2 Motherwell 11 3 1 2 10 9 2 0 3 6 7 0 16

3 Kilmarnock 11 3 0 2 5 5 2 1 3 6 7 -1 16

4 Hibernian 11 2 1 2 6 8 2 2 2 6 7 -3 15

5 Aberdeen 11 1 1 4 4 8 3 1 1 6 4 -2 14

6 Hearts 11 3 1 2 8 8 1 1 3 4 9 -5 14

7 St Mirren 11 1 3 1 2 2 2 0 4 6 9 -3 12

8 Falkirk 11 2 1 3 7 6 1 1 3 7 11-3 11

9 Inverness CT 11 1 1 4 7 9 2 0 3 5 9 -6 10

 

-------------------------------------------

 

10 Hamilton 11 1 0 4 6 9 2 0 4 4 12 -11 9

 

Pity we didn't get shot of them when we had the chance

 

that would be the only league in the world were you could be 10th place at xmas and still win the thing in may!!! bring it on get them tae