Dusk_Till_Dawn Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 This is starting to look extremely dodgy for the Old Bill. More evidence today suggesting there were no warnings or shouts of "armed police" despite the fact that every firearms officer is sticking to that story like glue. I've always felt that the Met have only ever been one small step away from convincing themselves that they did in fact get the right man and stopped a major atrocity by shooting him. Their operation seems to have been a total shambles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deek Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 The BBC website have a good graphic about the whole episode including the build up. I know it was set in a chaotic time just after the 7/7 bombing and the failed 21/7 bombing, but it appears they shot him off their own backs through panic and adrenalin. It appears to be a shambles, full of police officers, covering themselves by changing words in statements and going by independent civilian witnesses, lying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cisc0 K1d Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 Agree that the Met have totally screwed up here, the most distasteful thing is that rather than hold their hands up and plead guilty to their mistakes and try and learn from them the inquest seems to have just uncovered a series of Met cover ups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusk_Till_Dawn Posted November 3, 2008 Author Share Posted November 3, 2008 The BBC website have a good graphic about the whole episode including the build up. I know it was set in a chaotic time just after the 7/7 bombing and the failed 21/7 bombing, but it appears they shot him off their own backs through panic and adrenalin. It appears to be a shambles, full of police officers, covering themselves by changing words in statements and going by independent civilian witnesses, lying. I wonder if this will go the same way as the Hutton report Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawrrrrrrr Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 We may as well just pay the meneze family to go away, its all there after tbh. People can claim its noble, principle etc all they want but Im sure a big offer to the menezes and it would all suddenly go away As much as the Met cocked up this inquest is happening all for the wrong reasons, not to improve things but to find a few scapegoats and shut the family up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 This is starting to look extremely dodgy for the Old Bill. More evidence today suggesting there were no warnings or shouts of "armed police" despite the fact that every firearms officer is sticking to that story like glue. I've always felt that the Met have only ever been one small step away from convincing themselves that they did in fact get the right man and stopped a major atrocity by shooting him. Their operation seems to have been a total shambles. I actually know the woman in overall charge of the operation, Cressida Dick. The real scandal here is the way the police are allowed to confer and corroborate when the IPCC (independent, my arse) are investigating: it literally invites a cover-up. The sooner we move to truly independent systems of regulation, the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Grimes Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 We may as well just pay the meneze family to go away, its all there after tbh. People can claim its noble, principle etc all they want but Im sure a big offer to the menezes and it would all suddenly go away As much as the Met cocked up this inquest is happening all for the wrong reasons, not to improve things but to find a few scapegoats and shut the family up more utter tripe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grumpyjambo Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 We may as well just pay the meneze family to go away, its all there after tbh. People can claim its noble, principle etc all they want but Im sure a big offer to the menezes and it would all suddenly go away As much as the Met cocked up this inquest is happening all for the wrong reasons, not to improve things but to find a few scapegoats and shut the family up Would you still have the same opinion if it was a member of your family? I believe that the Met are very lucky that it is an inquest and not policemen on trial for murder. It may still come to a full trial though but I feel that the police will get away with murder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawrrrrrrr Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 Would you still have the same opinion if it was a member of your family? I believe that the Met are very lucky that it is an inquest and not policemen on trial for murder. It may still come to a full trial though but I feel that the police will get away with murder Yeah great idea, lets send 2 coppers who thought they were saving lifes to jail for Life, and what happens next time it is a bomber? Yes it was a ****** up and yes it needs to be reviewed, but this inquest is all about the wrong things and finding a few scapegoats, who look like being the bottom level CO19 team and shutting the menezes up. As for the family, at times I suspect their motivation is money and not the truth I am afraid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deek Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 I actually know the woman in overall charge of the operation, Cressida Dick. The real scandal here is the way the police are allowed to confer and corroborate when the IPCC (independent, my arse) are investigating: it literally invites a cover-up. The sooner we move to truly independent systems of regulation, the better. Hi Shaun Are you saying the IPCC allow this, or are the police doing this off their own back. If the latter then what do you think an independent system of regulation could do to change it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusk_Till_Dawn Posted November 3, 2008 Author Share Posted November 3, 2008 Yeah great idea, lets send 2 coppers who thought they were saving lifes to jail for Life, and what happens next time it is a bomber? I suppose they might do the job they're trained to do (at great public expense) properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beverley Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 more utter tripe. don't bite, he really likes it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 Hi Shaun Are you saying the IPCC allow this, or are the police doing this off their own back. If the latter then what do you think an independent system of regulation could do to change it? The IPCC allow it, yes - and don't allow it in the case of any other witnesses. A truly independent system would outlaw it: of course, cover-ups would still happen, but the whole culture within the police force needs to change on matters such as this. Most policemen and women know how important and scrupulous their image needs to be, so would surely sign up to such a system if and when it happens - but right now, it's far too easy for things to be concocted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deek Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 but right now, it's far too easy for things to be concocted. I agree, but what would an independent regulator achieve? The police are more and more transparent these days, but unless you had a regulator working with every team of cops then there is always the possibility of something underhand. Its a difficult one, as on one hand we need to trust the police and on the other hand we dont trust them. More lay advisor's may be one solution. Another one is a spyhole camera attached to their uniform to record there every move. But then we start invading their right to privacy which is fundamental part of the Human Rights Act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CostaJambo Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 A colleague of mine who is coming out next week has a son in the gun squad in the Met. Will be interesting what he has to say about it. Incidentally his daughter-in-law is in the kidnap squad and when I remarked that she wouldn't be that busy he said that they are very busy with black on black gangster kidnappings that rarely get reported in the press. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 I agree, but what would an independent regulator achieve? The police are more and more transparent these days, but unless you had a regulator working with every team of cops then there is always the possibility of something underhand. Its a difficult one, as on one hand we need to trust the police and on the other hand we dont trust them. More lay advisor's may be one solution. Another one is a spyhole camera attached to their uniform to record there every move. But then we start invading their right to privacy which is fundamental part of the Human Rights Act. There'd be the possibility, yes - but it'd be more and more frowned upon. These things take years, sometimes even generations to solve: but if you work at changing the whole culture, results usually follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToadKiller Dog Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 We may as well just pay the meneze family to go away, its all there after tbh. People can claim its noble, principle etc all they want but Im sure a big offer to the menezes and it would all suddenly go away As much as the Met cocked up this inquest is happening all for the wrong reasons, not to improve things but to find a few scapegoats and shut the family up Another snap shot of the jaundiced view of the world according to the prancer. Please show evidence that the de menezes family are only after the money ! So we should just shut the family up ,So why is there real evidence of the police trying to cover up the truth ,i think the family and the people of this nation are entitled to know the truth of how public servants operate . Nothing to do with scapegoats or money if his family wanted money they would have been shut up by now. Its good to see an open inquest recording the real facts,not some white washed Hutton report . So next time it is a bomber that is shot and not an innocent person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deevers Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 Another snap shot of the jaundiced view of the world according to the prancer. Please show evidence that the de menezes family are only after the money ! So we should just shut the family up ,So why is there real evidence of the police trying to cover up the truth ,i think the family and the people of this nation are entitled to know the truth of how public servants operate . Nothing to do with scapegoats or money if his family wanted money they would have been shut up by now. Its good to see an open inquest recording the real facts,not some white washed Hutton report . So next time it is a bomber that is shot and not an innocent person. That's the really important thing in all this, as is not seeking to find scapegoats for the tragedy. There appears to have been a real failing in intelligence and a massive failure in leadership in all of this. I feel sorry for the cops who pulled the triggers in all of this. They must have fully believed that the person they were shooting was a suicide bomber and that an error or hesitation by them could have cost not only their own lives but the lives of many people on that train. There are important lessons to be learned - lets hope that they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 The entire affair is a shambles. From day one, when the Met said he had vaulted the barriers then sprinted to get on the train, they have been lying through their teeth. They should all be charged with manslaughter and sent down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 Yeah great idea, lets send 2 coppers who thought they were saving lifes to jail for Life, and what happens next time it is a bomber? Yes it was a ****** up and yes it needs to be reviewed, but this inquest is all about the wrong things and finding a few scapegoats, who look like being the bottom level CO19 team and shutting the menezes up. As for the family, at times I suspect their motivation is money and not the truth I am afraid. Add your evidence to support this is....? You're a sad man I'm afraid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 The reality is that it was ******-up with police officers scared, on edge and unable to control themselves. I do feel some sympathy for them as I doubt any of us would be any different in the circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusk_Till_Dawn Posted November 4, 2008 Author Share Posted November 4, 2008 The reality is that it was ******-up with police officers scared, on edge and unable to control themselves. I do feel some sympathy for them as I doubt any of us would be any different in the circumstances. They're trained and paid not to be like that, which is why I don't think the pressure of that period should be put forward as an excuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deek Posted November 4, 2008 Share Posted November 4, 2008 They're trained and paid not to be like that, which is why I don't think the pressure of that period should be put forward as an excuse. Trained and paid to go down the tube with a potential suicide bomber (although Jean Charles de Menezes was most definately not)! For ?25,000 a year. Not me, never in a million years. They cocked it up through the whole processes. What is annoying is the blatant lies and cover up stories at the inquest. The purpose of the inquest is to establish what happened and make recommendations so that it should not happen again. But the truth would help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev79 Posted November 4, 2008 Share Posted November 4, 2008 seesm to be whole series of bad luck, he lived in the same block of flats as a suicide bomber, took the same route as him. got on the same bus then got off and hopped back on again with no aparent reason. Lets not forget he was here illegaly, and was no doubt tempted to run when challenged by the police. Dont get me wrong I think the police have th sholder the most blame but quite alot happened that day that i wouldnt class as normal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusk_Till_Dawn Posted November 4, 2008 Author Share Posted November 4, 2008 Trained and paid to go down the tube with a potential suicide bomber (although Jean Charles de Menezes was most definately not)! For ?25,000 a year. Not me, never in a million years. They cocked it up through the whole processes. What is annoying is the blatant lies and cover up stories at the inquest. The purpose of the inquest is to establish what happened and make recommendations so that it should not happen again. But the truth would help. I'm with you there, I'd never do that job, but the fact still stands - that is the work that firearms officers are paid to do. They're also paid to do it properly, or at least to a point which doesn't go beyond reasonable human error. My gripe is not really with the guys on the tube - unless they've all been lying about shouting 'armed police' and giving him a fair warning. That's unacceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusk_Till_Dawn Posted November 4, 2008 Author Share Posted November 4, 2008 Lets not forget he was here illegaly, and was no doubt tempted to run when challenged by the police. He didn't run, and the fact that he was here illegally didn't come to light until later - when the Met decided to reveal it publicly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted November 4, 2008 Share Posted November 4, 2008 He didn't run coz he had his ipod on. Poor guy knew nothing of what was happening until he was on the floor with 7 bullets in his head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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