Fozzie v Mole v Clum: Are fans more intolerant now?

[Charlie-Brown]

I was thinking the other day about Wayne Foster v Jamie Mole v Callum Elliot and who was better, who was worse etc and why.....of course Fozzie played for the best part of a decade and provided one of THE greatest moments but his goals were very sparse and not disimilar to Mole & Elliots goals ratio today - although Fozzie played in the team when goals and a functioning attack were much better than they have been in recent seasons.

 

But one thing struck me was that even before his cup-winning goal at Easter Road made him a hero Fozzie was never subjected to as much bile & vitriol from Hearts fans as Mole & Elliot have been in recent times.

 

Are Hearts fans more intolerant now - it seems to me we are, much more and it's one of the things that makes matches much less enjoyable nowadays listening to some of our 'fans' endlessly berating our own players.

[Samster]

Are Hearts fans more intolerant now

 

 

That's it in a nutshell NMH.

[Toxteth O'Grady]

I was thinking the other day about Wayne Foster v Jamie Mole v Callum Elliot and who was better, who was worse etc and why.....of course Fozzie played for the best part of a decade and provided one of THE greatest moments but his goals were very sparse and not disimilar to Mole & Elliots goals ratio today - although Fozzie played in the team when goals and a functioning attack were much better than they have been in recent seasons.

 

But one thing struck me was that even before his cup-winning goal at Easter Road made him a hero Fozzie was never subjected to as much bile & vitriol from Hearts fans as Mole & Elliot have been in recent times.

 

Are Hearts fans more intolerant now - it seems to me we are, much more and it's one of the things that makes matches much less enjoyable nowadays listening to some of our 'fans' endlessly berating our own players.

 

 

 

Fozzie didn't get much stick from the moaners because they were too busy dishing it out to players like Kenny Black, Andy Watson and Brian Whittaker.

 

 

Also with Terracing you didn't have to be stuck beside somebody who was moaning.

[Charlie-Brown]

Fozzie didn't get much stick from the moaners because they were too busy dishing it out to players like Kenny Black, Andy Watson and Brian Whittaker.

 

 

Also with Terracing you didn't have to be stuck beside somebody who was moaning.

 

That's all true Toxteth but it doesn't seem to matter where I sit at away games now there's no shortage of people laying into some of our players - it's far more prevalent than it was before - there was always boo-boys and crap players who got abuse but i think it's worse now.

[Buffalo Bill]

It's funny, because I just defended Foster on the 'worst player ever' thread.

 

He wasn't great, but bloody hell the guy could run!

 

Perhaps his goals/game ratio didn't do his game justice. I remeber his running unsettling defences, maybe with Robbo or JC getting the benefit.

 

The fact that he played 44 games in the excellent 87/88 season speaks volumes.

 

A guy who gave his all for the jersey, I'd say.

 

 

But was he better than Mole or Elliot?

 

Possibly of a similar level. Elliot has a bit more skill, but his attitude stinks. Mole, I'm not sure about at all.

 

The question I guess then is not 'who is better'?

 

But 'who do I remember with most fondness'?

 

There's your answer.

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

[Randle P McMurphy]

Absolutely more intolerant now. A combination of higher expectations, the herd mentality and forums like this where every mistake is highlighted and expanded upon.

[Toxteth O'Grady]

That's all true Toxteth but it doesn't seem to matter where I sit at away games now there's no shortage of people laying into some of our players - it's far more prevalent than it was before - there was always boo-boys and crap players who got abuse but i think it's worse now.

 

Aye fair enough maybe it's a bit of a craze just now but it's easy to look back and just remember the good stuff.

 

As you say when Fozzy was playing we had others who we could rely on to score, that's not the case now and I think that's partly what leads to frustration

[Dazo]

I was thinking the other day about Wayne Foster v Jamie Mole v Callum Elliot and who was better, who was worse etc and why.....of course Fozzie played for the best part of a decade and provided one of THE greatest moments but his goals were very sparse and not disimilar to Mole & Elliots goals ratio today - although Fozzie played in the team when goals and a functioning attack were much better than they have been in recent seasons.

 

But one thing struck me was that even before his cup-winning goal at Easter Road made him a hero Fozzie was never subjected to as much bile & vitriol from Hearts fans as Mole & Elliot have been in recent times.

 

Are Hearts fans more intolerant now - it seems to me we are, much more and it's one of the things that makes matches much less enjoyable nowadays listening to some of our 'fans' endlessly berating our own players.

 

 

Another lets blame the fans thread you really are doing VR proud.

 

As already mentioned plenty of other players were getting stick at the time Foster was playing. Have to say though up until his goal at easter road he would get his fair share of stick.

 

We has fans really are no different from any other club. Play well and the fans with adore you. Play pish and be prepared to take the stick that comes with it. A lot of the blame has to be laid at the door of the person/s who decides to continually play poor players.

[leginten]

Are Hearts fans more intolerant now...

 

Some of them seem very intolerant of Robbie Neilson...

 

[Charlie-Brown]

Another lets blame the fans thread you really are doing VR proud.

 

As already mentioned plenty of other players were getting stick at the time Foster was playing. Have to say though up until his goal at easter road he would get his fair share of stick.

 

We has fans really are no different from any other club. Play well and the fans with adore you. Play pish and be prepared to take the stick that comes with it. A lot of the blame has to be laid at the door of the person/s who decides to continually play poor players.

 

There was always people who moaned & criticised players dazo and there was always some players who deserved it or some who simply weren't popular and that is true at any club ...... but it's far worse now and more widespread than it ever was and it ruins going to fitba to an extent when your sat next to people spouting bile for most of the 90 minutes, people who are barely watching the game and more intent on letting their feelings be known and arguing with many of those around them etc......yes some of these things always happened but it's worse now and watching our games is worse for it ........ Fozzie would be crucified today the same way Mole & Elliot have been... so were we a better support in the past given he wasn't?

[Charlie-Brown]

Some of them seem very intolerant of Robbie Neilson...

 

 

I think he's a crap player just as i've thought many players down the years have been crap players leginten but i don't go to games and berate him for 90 minutes - I berate very few of our players except for moments of exceptionally bad play - maybe I'm just more tolerant than other people.

[leginten]

I think he's a crap player just as i've thought many players down the years have been crap players leginten but i don't go to games and berate him for 90 minutes - I berate very few of our players except for moments of exceptionally bad play - maybe I'm just more tolerant than other people.

 

I think Audrey, for example, is an absolutely terrible player, but I don't go to matches and yell at him either. You either give players abuse or you don't - it has always been that way. I remember Willie Gibson taking some horrendous abuse at just about every match.

 

But with regard to "internet intolerance" of players, we're all just about as bad as each other, aren't we - which is why I used the example of Robbie.

[Charlie-Brown]

I think Audrey, for example, is an absolutely terrible player, but I don't go to matches and yell at him either. You either give players abuse or you don't - it has always been that way. I remember Willie Gibson taking some horrendous abuse at just about every match.

 

But with regard to "internet intolerance" of players, we're all just about as bad as each other, aren't we - which is why I used the example of Robbie.

 

Okay maybe I should have clarified leginten - i was thinking/talking about a lot of the erses who go to games now - maybe i've just been unfortunate to have been sat next to more of them recently but it's way worse than I remember - even when we were truly cack being relegated or struggling in the first division with some truly god-awful players I think as a whole we supported them & the team more .... maybe I'm just getting older?

[bighusref]

Fozzie was ripped, all the bloody time.

 

The difference between then and now, is there is the internet. We can come home from the pub and continue to bump our gums about players we do not like on a 24/7 basis.

 

Simple, had the internet been around in the eighties/nineties in the form it is now, then these sort of players would have got the same internet slagging that Elliot, Mole, Ksanavicius et al do now.

[leginten]

Okay maybe I should have clarified leginten - i was thinking/talking about a lot of the erses who go to games now - maybe i've just been unfortunate to have been sat next to more of them recently but it's way worse than I remember - even when we were truly cack being relegated or struggling in the first division with some truly god-awful players I think as a whole we supported them & the team more .... maybe I'm just getting older?

 

I tend to move around quite a bit at Tynecastle now between the three stands - yet another improvement our owner has enabled for 2008/9 - and I don't really hear any more abuse than I used to. But I'm sure there are pockets of people who have always been prone to giving players abuse and who are certainly given ample scope for their hobby in the current circumstances.

In the main I'd say Hearts fans have been incredibly supportive of the team over the last three seasons given the amount of **** that's been flying around.

[Pants Shaton]

If memory serves, Foster was rarely relied upon as a regular starter (unlike Mole and Elliot in recent times). Also, during his time at the club we were fortunate enough to have good, passionate players (Levein, Mcpherson, Mclaren, Colquhoun, Robertson, Mackay...) - making Foster's failings less of an issue.

[hmfc_steve]

That goal against Hubs raises Fozzy above the other 2 lunkheids

 

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=lXxbpzr50YA

[Dazo]

The difference between then and now, is there is the internet. We can come home from the pub and continue to bump our gums about players we do not like on a 24/7 basis.

 

Simple, had the internet been around in the eighties/nineties in the form it is now, then these sort of players would have got the same internet slagging that Elliot, Mole, Ksanavicius et al do now.

 

I tend to move around quite a bit at Tynecastle now between the three stands - yet another improvement our owner has enabled for 2008/9 - and I don't really hear any more abuse than I used to. But I'm sure there are pockets of people who have always been prone to giving players abuse and who are certainly given ample scope for their hobby in the current circumstances.

In the main I'd say Hearts fans have been incredibly supportive of the team over the last three seasons given the amount of **** that's been flying around.

 

 

For me 2 posts that sum it up. When I went to games in the 80's and 90's I would moan infinitely more at the games than I do now. Everybody did especially at those players the feels felt were not worthy of not pulling their weight. These days I just sort of sit there and accept the pish I am forced to watch and hardly utter a word. However when I am on JKB I am constantly moaning at those I feel deserve it. Bigh is has got it spot on regarding the Internet. IMO it magnifies everything surrounding the club when compared to actually being at the games.

 

 

IMO the fans are a lot more tolerant now than we have ever been. It just doesn't seem like that on JKB.

[leginten]

For me 2 posts that sum it up. When I went to games in the 80's and 90's I would moan infinitely more at the games than I do now. Everybody did especially at those players the feels felt were not worthy of not pulling their weight. These days I just sort of sit there and accept the pish I am forced to watch and hardly utter a word. However when I am on JKB I am constantly moaning at those I feel deserve it. Bigh is has got it spot on regarding the Internet. IMO it magnifies everything surrounding the club when compared to actually being at the games.

 

 

IMO the fans are a lot more tolerant now than we have ever been. It just doesn't seem like that on JKB.

 

Yes, I'd actually agree with that last statement - again excepting individuals or pockets of people who yell abuse. There's a sort of awareness that it is not really the done thing to be on players' backs.

The change in the atmosphere at Tynecastle is the interesting thing. As you say, people do tend now to just sit and watch quietly the fare - mostly fairly banal - that is served up. There's an undercurrent and a wariness that starts with the reading out of the team (are there any horrific inclusions today?) - there's very little cheering of names. People are trying to "interpret" the team selection, a process that didn't always use to be necessary. The team usually starts brightly and presses, but after ten minutes or so it goes quiet. And it usually stays quiet, barring the excitement of something like the M'well game.

[MacDonald Jardine]

For me 2 posts that sum it up. When I went to games in the 80's and 90's I would moan infinitely more at the games than I do now. Everybody did especially at those players the feels felt were not worthy of not pulling their weight. These days I just sort of sit there and accept the pish I am forced to watch and hardly utter a word. However when I am on JKB I am constantly moaning at those I feel deserve it. Bigh is has got it spot on regarding the Internet. IMO it magnifies everything surrounding the club when compared to actually being at the games.

 

 

IMO the fans are a lot more tolerant now than we have ever been. It just doesn't seem like that on JKB.

 

There's something in that.

Certainly if the last two years had happened 20 - 25 years ago the atmosphere would have been far worse.

We've always had players who get stick, some undeservedly.

Kenny Black springs to mind, as mentioned above. (Andy Watson deserved everything he got).

Walter Kidd used to get it too, not dissimilar to what is said now about Robbie Neilson.

The one you never hear about now is that there were a good few years when Gary Mackay was a target.

[Jam Tarts 1874]

I believe that our worst players and all their mistakes stand out much more in the current side due to the dis-jointed nature of our play.

 

In a team that is genuinely "together", bad players can get away with a lot just by working hard. Celtic and Rangers both have their donkeys who would probably look terrible in our team - Broadfoot and Caldwell for instance.

 

Someone mentioned Willie Gibson getting alot of stick - yes he did at the moment of making an error, but he was not booed every time he touched the ball - nor were any of the other awful players during those relegation times. So I would say that fans are less tolerant now and are more prepared to give a player stick right from the kick-off.

 

It is also the case that there are some "fans" who believe that booing a badly performing player is somehow the same as booing Romanov - pretty silly really.

[Groatallar]

I think one of the key things these days is that the players that bust a gut are not that good compared with players we had in the past. Also the players that are as good as ones we had in the past sometimes look like they couldn't give a toss.

 

The worst thing is that we have too many players who are both devoid of skill and passion and as someone previously stated there is nothing to get excited about with any team selection we put out.

 

Players for me that tend to get it IMO usually deserve it (although I myself don't usually barrack players but will if they have really cost us big time). These players tend to get it for constant lack of effort, constant bad play and on occasion dodgy off field comments or actions (one of these may even be on loan).

 

In relation to the original question - Foster was no world beater, in fact he was often rubbish, but compared to what we have now I wish we had a similar player as he is streets ahead of our current forwards (undecided about Tulberg too eraly to say on him).

[Lovecraft]

Even though I am no fan of either Mole or Elliott, it's pretty unfair to compare them to Foster and his goal ratio(even though he was no Robbo). You are still having to compare them against his whole career, whereas Mole and Elliott are both still very, very young.

[Denny Crane]

Bear in mind that pre-internet, Foster would get it tight from various fanzine articles - until THAT goal.

[MacDonald Jardine]

I think one of the key things these days is that the players that bust a gut are not that good compared with players we had in the past. Also the players that are as good as ones we had in the past sometimes look like they couldn't give a toss.

 

The worst thing is that we have too many players who are both devoid of skill and passion and as someone previously stated there is nothing to get excited about with any team selection we put out.

 

Players for me that tend to get it IMO usually deserve it (although I myself don't usually barrack players but will if they have really cost us big time). These players tend to get it for constant lack of effort, constant bad play and on occasion dodgy off field comments or actions (one of these may even be on loan).

 

In relation to the original question - Foster was no world beater, in fact he was often rubbish, but compared to what we have now I wish we had a similar player as he is streets ahead of our current forwards (undecided about Tulberg too eraly to say on him).

 

That's an interesting one.

I remember Robbo speaking at a shareholders' meeting years ago and he was asked a question about (as I remember) Derek Ferguson and his lack of effort.

His reply was along the lines of: if a player had that much skill and bust a gut every week they'd be playing for AC Milan.

Of course you could argue some of the current lot have neither.

[troonjambo]

Bear in mind that pre-internet, Foster would get it tight from various fanzine articles - until THAT goal.

 

he was however the subject of that brilliant cartoon where the fans were shouting "the ball wane remember the ball" as he zoomed up and down the park :)

 

There's something in that.

Certainly if the last two years had happened 20 - 25 years ago the atmosphere would have been far worse.

We've always had players who get stick, some undeservedly.

Kenny Black springs to mind, as mentioned above. (Andy Watson deserved everything he got).

Walter Kidd used to get it too, not dissimilar to what is said now about Robbie Neilson.

The one you never hear about now is that there were a good few years when Gary Mackay was a target.

 

indeed they did bigtime (nearly all far better servents of the club BTW)

 

Fozzie was ripped, all the bloody time.

 

The difference between then and now, is there is the internet. We can come home from the pub and continue to bump our gums about players we do not like on a 24/7 basis.

 

Simple, had the internet been around in the eighties/nineties in the form it is now, then these sort of players would have got the same internet slagging that Elliot, Mole, Ksanavicius et al do now.

 

absolutely agree re the internet everything gets blown up on here however i am with MJ on present day i think the players get mimimal stick compared to the past and unfortunately it works both ways opposition players and teams are no longer intimidated in the new all family friendly football:(

 

ps not saying its a bad thing just saying that its different matchday experence now

 

and the award for stating the bloody obvious goes too troonjambo:rolleyes::

[Dagger Is Back]

I think we are more intolerant.

 

The gap though between players and fans is wider now than it has ever been. Players bombing about in flash cars earning thousands of pounds a week and acting like prima donnas.

 

I think that has something to do with peoples intolerance.

 

You look at these guys and feel jealous of the opportunities they have. You hear about the poor wee lambs having to go in for a couple of hours training a day and you think ****, I'd love to live that life.

 

Then you see them on a Saturday and you have donkeys like Makela who couldn't trap a bag of cement, Elliot wearing daft yellow boots like he's Ronaldinho etc. and you think they should be better than that.

 

We spend a lot of money to watch our football and we have more choices than ever about how to spend our disposable income and quite frankly we are very very often short changed.

[scott herbertson]

Okay maybe I should have clarified leginten - i was thinking/talking about a lot of the erses who go to games now - maybe i've just been unfortunate to have been sat next to more of them recently but it's way worse than I remember - even when we were truly cack being relegated or struggling in the first division with some truly god-awful players I think as a whole we supported them & the team more .... maybe I'm just getting older?

 

Me and my mates used to nearly wee ourselves laughing at how bad Willie Gibson was. Scored goals against poor teams with every part of his anatomy. There was more self-mockery then. When we laughed at Gibson we were kind of laughing at ourselves and our crazy stupidity in being mugs enough to follow such a poor team.

 

It seems to me since 1998 we've taken ourselves much more seriously.

 

I remember in the first division days a popular song was 'we're so shecht , it's unbelieveable". Nowadays that would be expressed as a torrent of abuse.

 

The player sof the 70s with a few exceptions (most notably Donald Ford) would have been absolutely slaughtered with abuse today.

[Charlie-Brown]

Me and my mates used to nearly wee ourselves laughing at how bad Willie Gibson was. Scored goals against poor teams with every part of his anatomy. There was more self-mockery then. When we laughed at Gibson we were kind of laughing at ourselves and our crazy stupidity in being mugs enough to follow such a poor team.

 

It seems to me since 1998 we've taken ourselves much more seriously.

 

I remember in the first division days a popular song was 'we're so shecht , it's unbelieveable". Nowadays that would be expressed as a torrent of abuse.

 

The player sof the 70s with a few exceptions (most notably Donald Ford) would have been absolutely slaughtered with abuse today.

 

Your post is very much on the nail Scott, I also think in the eighties when Fozzie etc played the memory of the bad times at Hearts was much more recent and the same people going to games - yes the poorer players still got some criticism or abuse but nowhere near the level some do today.

[Dazo]

Your post is very much on the nail Scott, I also think in the eighties when Fozzie etc played the memory of the bad times at Hearts was much more recent and the same people going to games - yes the poorer players still got some criticism or abuse but nowhere near the level some do today.

 

I may be wrong but I think Scott is saying society is a lot more sensitive these days. The same abuse dished out years ago is now described as a "torrent of abuse" or "shocking treatment" etc. While back in the day no one batted a eyelid as it was part of the game.

[Charlie-Brown]

I may be wrong but I think Scott is saying society is a lot more sensitive these days. The same abuse dished out years ago is now described as a "torrent of abuse" or "shocking treatment" etc. While back in the day no one batted a eyelid as it was part of the game.

 

Dazo there is no way that the likes of W.Gibson or W.Foster or even real numpties like Archie White or Pat McShane got anywhere near the level of abuse that some players get now ... people might have had the same opinion that they were utter shecht and laughed at their attempts but when they were subbed or played poorly their wasn't the same level of anger or venom aimed at them - it simply didn't happen .... albeit crowds were significantly smaller in many instances than they are now.....Hearts were down to the real hardcore in those days.

[Boab]

Has a player like Mole really received terrible abuse?

Maybe a few growls of discontent where I sit but nothing widespread.

Maybe i'm lucky and have missed some of the abuse but in my experience a guy like Pat McShane got it really tight compared to the likes of Mole.

Suppose i'm saying that we are not more intolerant just,as others have said,more avenues to voice discontent,tinternet etc. make the abuse seem worse.

[MacDonald Jardine]

Has a player like Mole really received terrible abuse?

Maybe a few growls of discontent where I sit but nothing widespread.

Maybe i'm lucky and have missed some of the abuse but in my experience a guy like Pat McShane got it really tight compared to the likes of Mole.

Suppose i'm saying that we are not more intolerant just,as others have said,more avenues to voice discontent,tinternet etc. make the abuse seem worse.

 

What about Elliot?

Or Miko with a section of the fans?

[Boab]

What about Elliot?

Or Miko with a section of the fans?

 

I'll concede Elliot received more abuse/booing than Mole.I may be wrong but,in my opinion,a lot of the stuff Elliot got was directed partly at him and the "management" for playing the boy when it was clear that he was either not good enough or suffering from a confidence deficiency.It could be argued that the same applied to Miko when results were not going our way.When things are not going well the fans will let the players know but last season i heard many outbursts directed at the dugout/director's box.

[K1874M]

Higher expectations, higher costs to follow football and higher wages being payed... are the main reasons I think there is a higher discontent amongst fans.

 

We were promised unrealistic targets, most would have been happy with slightly lower - we were delivered lower (after a good start)

 

Players earning silly money is always going to get in peoples throats (any one for a wage theif?)

 

?34 pound for a seat is always going to be a pain in the erse when your teams under performing, the players who all get stick at hearts are usually the ones that we believe have stinking attitudes...

 

The internets a strong tool but I dont think its as strong a factor as the above. Take all the unique users here and maybe half, or even third it for regular attenders and there's still a hell of a lot of moaners out there who dont log on.

[jambonian]

That's all true Toxteth but it doesn't seem to matter where I sit at away games now there's no shortage of people laying into some of our players - it's far more prevalent than it was before - there was always boo-boys and crap players who got abuse but i think it's worse now.

It's worse now because we have worse players! Yes, there was always the odd player that got a hard time, usually because other players around them gave their all while whoever was given stick deserved it, no fans of any club like it when a player shows a lack of fight or comes across lazy, our fans are no worse than anyone else's. As for Fozzie, he always gave his all, sometimes too much, it made him look even worse, that's why he was given the "headless chicken" name. He was still better than anything we've got up front nowadays.