Thatchers Legacy

[wibble]

Margaret Thatcher nears her end of life, a life that has had a massive impact on Britain and the world.

 

Her place in British and world politics is praised an lauded, but is this reputation deserved?

 

In my opinion she should go to the grave as a despised individual who changed the shape of the Western world for the worse, creating some of the greatest social and economic problems of our times.

 

Credit crunch/ global financial meltdown - It was Thatcher and her policy makers who pioneered de-regulation, privatisation and introduced greed-based economics such as short selling, a focus on borrowing based growth strategies etc. Extreme capitalism was Thatchers game. Massive pay rewards for CEO's and the share based bonus scheme's were Thatchers baby - these schemes have made lying about performance the norm - there's too much at stake for a CEO to tell the truth about performance. "Greed is good" was Thatchers mantra and it was quickly adopted by Reagan, who employed many of Thatcher's advisors to put in place similar changes in the USA. This deregulation is the fundamental cause of the current financial meltdown.

 

Chave/Ned culture - by destroying industry and manufacturing through shutting the mines and steelworks Thatcher created Marx's Lumpen Proletariat. Generations of people who simply were never going to get a job. With no hope of being a functioning, contributing part of society they have created their own society with it's own set of values and aspirations. Unfortunately the values and aspirations of this new society involve smashing up your property, smashing up your face and generally destroying your peaceful life. The middle class who supported and still laud Thatcher should realise that everything they now hate about Britain is her fault. Thanks Thatcher.

 

In summary, Thatchers policies have created a greed based society that has punished the middle classes from above with devastating impact on their savings and house prices and from below with a breakdown of society to the point where it is no longer safe to walk the streets without the fear of assault or robbery.

 

Previously the middle classes have distanced themselves from the bottom end of society because of their new found wealth. It will be interesting to see how they separate themsleves now that their wealth has gone up in smoke.

 

I, personally, will be interested to see how Thatcher is viewed in a historical perspective after recent events have taken their full toll. Her role in all of this should not be overlooked.

[cookieboy]

nae doot she will get a state??? funeral when we will all be preached at to REMEMBER the good she brought to GB. **** that I will be singing an dancing DING DONG the....

[Janbo1874]

Tramp the dirt down and pop a bottle to the brave new world.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Margaret Thatcher nears her end of life, a life that has had a massive impact on Britain and the world.

 

Her place in British and world politics is praised an lauded, but is this reputation deserved?

 

In my opinion she should go to the grave as a despised individual who changed the shape of the Western world for the worse, creating some of the greatest social and economic problems of our times.

 

Credit crunch/ global financial meltdown - It was Thatcher and her policy makers who pioneered de-regulation, privatisation and introduced greed-based economics such as short selling, a focus on borrowing based growth strategies etc. Extreme capitalism was Thatchers game. Massive pay rewards for CEO's and the share based bonus scheme's were Thatchers baby - these schemes have made lying about performance the norm - there's too much at stake for a CEO to tell the truth about performance. "Greed is good" was Thatchers mantra and it was quickly adopted by Reagan, who employed many of Thatcher's advisors to put in place similar changes in the USA. This deregulation is the fundamental cause of the current financial meltdown.

 

I disagree. Deregulation was needed (note to teenagers/twentysomethings: If you wanted to go abroad on holiday the amount of pounds you could convert into a foreign currency was restricted) - this problem has simply been caused by central bankers keeping interest rates too low for far too long, particularly Greenspan and the Fed

 

Chave/Ned culture - by destroying industry and manufacturing through shutting the mines and steelworks Thatcher created Marx's Lumpen Proletariat. Generations of people who simply were never going to get a job. With no hope of being a functioning, contributing part of society they have created their own society with it's own set of values and aspirations. Unfortunately the values and aspirations of this new society involve smashing up your property, smashing up your face and generally destroying your peaceful life. The middle class who supported and still laud Thatcher should realise that everything they now hate about Britain is her fault. Thanks Thatcher.

Again, though, should we have subsidised loss-making industries just to keep people in a job? British competitiveness disappeared in the 1960s and 70s thanks to a combination of useless management and commie trade unions. Would anyone today want BT and British Airways on the government's books? Vodafone would never have existed had BT remained under state control. Look at Australia and how far behind broadband is in comparison with the UK (I detest Telstra). In addition, the same people who complain about global warming lament the loss of the mines, disregarding the fact that British coal was the main component of acid rain in Scandinavia.

 

The chav culture has come about because of massive dole fiddling figures by successive governments, simply paying people to stay out of work. The UK has also fiddled the education system to give people 'pretend' degrees as well.

 

In summary, Thatchers policies have created a greed based society that has punished the middle classes from above with devastating impact on their savings and house prices and from below with a breakdown of society to the point where it is no longer safe to walk the streets without the fear of assault or robbery.

 

Previously the middle classes have distanced themselves from the bottom end of society because of their new found wealth. It will be interesting to see how they separate themsleves now that their wealth has gone up in smoke.

 

I, personally, will be interested to see how Thatcher is viewed in a historical perspective after recent events have taken their full toll. Her role in all of this should not be overlooked.

 

I grew up in a council house in Northern Ireland during some of the worst times of the troubles. My mum and dad worked bloody hard to provide for my sister and I (they still are for my sister but let's not go there). They took advantage of right-to-buy and they welcomed the tax cuts of the late 80's after years of hard graft. My mum worked for Gallaher tobacco factory and was a shop steward there. The unions actually worked with the management to save the Lisnafillan plant when it was threatened with closure. Gallaher also provided a really good pension scheme as well. As a "child of Thatcher", I was happy to see them rewarded for hard work.

 

In Blair's Britain, the apparent heir of Thatcher, the middle class (of which I would have regarded myself), were shafted due to stealth taxes and continually higher costs of living to fund the pet projects of New Labour. One of the reasons I moved out here was to get away from that. Thatcher was far from perfect but Blair and Brown are worse. Indeed the one person whose premiership is actually enhanced by this disaster is John Major. After the ERM debacle, Major, to his credit, insisted on leaving a healthy economy in place as his No1 priority. He did that.

 

.

[wibble]

Geoff

 

Whilst I agree with you that change was needed it is the nature of the change that I disagree with. Also, in no way do I seek to defend the labour party who I can't stand.

 

My main point is that the "Greed is Good" mantra is a Thather creation. She changed the way the country thinks to one of looking out for themselves and no-one else. This is the root of Chav culture and also the mindset of the crooks who run our privatised industries and the banks.

 

There should be hundreds of lying cheating business managers/owners in jail, but their behaviour has been congratulated. The bosses of the banks should be getting dragged into the streets and lynched, but they are being "bailed out" instead.

 

Thatcher changed the social conscience of the planet to an extent that has made all of our lives a whole lot worse, and the worst is just around the corner.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Geoff

 

Whilst I agree with you that change was needed it is the nature of the change that I disagree with. Also, in no way do I seek to defend the labour party who I can't stand.

 

My main point is that the "Greed is Good" mantra is a Thather creation. She changed the way the country thinks to one of looking out for themselves and no-one else. This is the root of Chav culture and also the mindset of the crooks who run our privatised industries and the banks.

 

There should be hundreds of lying cheating business managers/owners in jail, but their behaviour has been congratulated. The bosses of the banks should be getting dragged into the streets and lynched, but they are being "bailed out" instead.

 

Thatcher changed the social conscience of the planet to an extent that has made all of our lives a whole lot worse, and the worst is just around the corner.

 

Don't get me wrong. It has stuck in the craw to see the banks bailed out like this (and it's also interesting that the calls for the "4 pillars" policy over here to be scrapped seem to have quietened down just a tad!) and they should be allowed to fail in an ideal world, but it isn't an ideal world, sadly.

 

The real fallout for the banker class will come when unemployment starts to rocket but the anger is misplaced. It should be aimed at the central banks for the "irrational exuberance" created by the man who spoke of it, Alan Greenspan.

[coppercrutch]

Interesting point about Major. I don't know too much about Politics but I reckon he is overlooked in terms of recent PM's ?

 

He seems to have done a pretty decent job compared to the others.

 

Stable, controlled, relatively fair time for the UK under his control ?

 

As for Blair and Brown don't get me started. Their whole decade has been based on more and more debt. Not something I can ever respect. They are responsible for the mess of our country just now. Some people can blame it on the Thatcher years yes. However Labour had 10 years to change this. Plenty of time if they really had such a problem with Thatcher's work. Which they clearly didn't.

 

As for Thatcher lots of good and bad from her time. However she was a leader. A real leader. Something Brown can only dream of being.

 

She had her time and at that time it seemed a leader with balls of steel was necessary in the UK. She certainly fits that bill !!

[Gabriel]

Political commentators regularly trot out the adage that the Scottish Nationalists always prosper under a Labour administration. However, this ignores the reality that in Scotland there remains no credible alternative, as the Conservative party has been politically decimated and remains an anathema to the electorate. Most of said voters experienced Thatcher as a divisive, Anglo-centric, usurper of authority, and I would imagine that after some years of reverence historians may ultimately view her as the initiator of the Union's dissolution.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Political commentators regularly trot out the adage that the Scottish Nationalists always prosper under a Labour administration. However, this ignores the reality that in Scotland there remains no credible alternative, as the Conservative party has been politically decimated and remains an anathema to the electorate. Most of said voters experienced Thatcher as a divisive, Anglo-centric, usurper of authority, and I would imagine that after some years of reverence historians may ultimately view her as the initiator of the Union's dissolution.

 

My theory on that is that Thatcher was a radical and the people of the UK, with Scotland more than most, are small "c" conservatives. Change isn't enjoyed by the British people. Remember when Major talked about his "olde worlde" England of mowed lawns, vicars on bikes and cricket on the village green? People knew that was dated but it didn't stop it resonating. With Thatcher reshaping Britain, people resented that their traditional way of life, no matter how hard it was (men didn't want their sons to go down the pit but knew it was there as a fallback), disappearing. In the South East though, people never felt richer, hence the divide between the North and the South.

 

Labour played up to this in Scotland. I can recall Donald Dewar once saying that he wanted "Scotland to be independent inside the UK". That statement is stupid but he was never challenged on it. Labour are now reaping what they sowed by successfully portraying as the "Scottish Raj". The SNP are doing to them what they did to the Tories and they don't know how to respond to it.

[cosanostra]

I'm no expert on this stuff and i'm certainly not a Tory but from what i've read, did she not drag the UK away from unsustainable, heavily unionised, environmentally calamitous and no longer profitable, traditionally heavy industry into the modern industries such as finance, tourism, communications and retail?

There was obviously many lives negatively affected, particularly in the North of England, Scotland and Wales but surely there were a lot of people who benefitted as well? When changes from unsustainable tradition to more sustainable modernism occurr, there are always going to be people put out. I mean, when slavery became illegal, there were thousands of slave traders, marketers, shippers etc that were suddenly out of work. Whole communities were destroyed etc but that wasn't a good reason to continue slavery (extreme example but i'm sure you can see my point). It seems to me this person is demonised by many for something that was going to happen sooner or later any way. She just seemed to deal with things in a no-nonsense and ruthless way which her job and maybe her position as a female in the top job, demanded.

I was too young to remember any of this and these view just comes from what i've read and heard so if i'm way off the mark, sorry in advance.

[cosanostra]

After thinking more about this subject, something occurred to me.

 

For years, the venom i've seen aimed at Thatcher on Kickback has been unrivalled. She probably gets more hate than Neil Lennon and Ratboy combined.

Now take for a minute the amount of blood that Tony Blair has on his hands. On a world scale, Blair ir responsible for an immeasurabe amount of death and destruction, maybe on the scale of hundreds of thousands of lives. Thatcher closed coal mines and weakened unions - who really deserves the hate out of those two?

[Sherlock]

nae doot she will get a state??? funeral when we will all be preached at to REMEMBER the good she brought to GB. **** that I will be singing an dancing DING DONG the....

 

Plenty jokes about that but i'll just let you watch this clip....

 

[Guest S.U.S.S.]

And here was me thinking its against the rules to post about taking joy when someone passes.

[JamboAl]

I agree with the OP especially about closing down industry with no fall-back plan forcing us to be reliant on imports.

It is a myth to talk about stealth taxes as was proved on a recent TV programme which indicated that Thatcher presided over the highest tax take of recent administrations. Geoffrey Howe immediately doubled VAT to 17.5% which included fuel, later reduced by Labour to 8%. That increase was hardly stealthy but meant that when you bought necessities you had no choice but to pay the tax whereas the supposed Labour stealth taxes are mostly optional eg you only pay airport taxes if you can afford to go abroad.

Now we have David "no policies" Cameron who only seems to want to raise the limit of Inheritance tax to benefit the wealthier members of the community: and who will pay for the tax lost by that measure? - the poorer members of the community.

Incidentally Labour has also substantially repaid the borrowings of Thatcher/Major while also regenerating hospital/school building, introducing a minimum wage, fuel allowance for the elderly and presided over lower interest rates over a sustained period, just to mention a few benefits.

[JWL]

nae doot she will get a state??? funeral when we will all be preached at to REMEMBER the good she brought to GB. **** that I will be singing an dancing DING DONG the....

 

[brownkg]

After thinking more about this subject, something occurred to me.

 

For years, the venom i've seen aimed at Thatcher on Kickback has been unrivalled. She probably gets more hate than Neil Lennon and Ratboy combined.

Now take for a minute the amount of blood that Tony Blair has on his hands. On a world scale, Blair ir responsible for an immeasurabe amount of death and destruction, maybe on the scale of hundreds of thousands of lives. Thatcher closed coal mines and weakened unions - who really deserves the hate out of those two?

 

Answer:- SHES DOES IN SPADES

Sorry but she, and mad arthur both , deserve villifaction for what they did and both their predictions have come true too sadly :- no union power leaving the bosses to cream what they can off for themselves and hell mend the the poor troglodytes who are the workers. No Uk manufacturing industry.

Now I know that I have a vested interest in that I work for a bank nowadays but at least they have to pay me for the hours I work (I make sure I claim every one of them too) but back in the 80's I was in reality working for the Bank 24x7. When the miners strike was over the Branch of the Yorkshire that I banked with was owed ?4.2Million unsecured and because we had security our security was called in, along with many others in a similar position. The company ( an import, wholesale and retail business) went under and I lost everything except my house(only because my wife's employer had a charge over it) ,my parents lost everything including their house the 70 staff lost their jobs all becuase the witch and Arfur wanted a fight. Imagine my disgust when you find the news reporting was editied to make the police look like the victims. Now 23 years later I am stil aware of family feuds because somebody was forced to break the stike to feed their starving families. I think I am more stoic about it but every now and then it just gets my blood boiling all over again.

She caused a war because she wanted to save ?30,000 a year on a wee boat . Not forgetting the poll tax debacle.The list is endless

Her legacy in the form of Tony B liar et al are not any better and like the OP says Sel Self Self are the only things that seem to matter nowadays. The gap between richer and poorer widening every day, people being payed obscene amounts of cash (?20,000 plus a day and then the cheeck to greet if the income tax rate is raised above 40%), Altrusim is a thing of the past. gordon Brown has been left as the fall guy whilst mr 6 houses just cheesily looks on saying I'm alright. I hope the country can recover from the current mess but I hae my doubts

[Horatio Caine]

Interesting point about Major. I don't know too much about Politics but I reckon he is overlooked in terms of recent PM's ?

 

He seems to have done a pretty decent job compared to the others.

Aye, just ask that Currie woman...

[Gabriel]

My theory on that is that Thatcher was a radical and the people of the UK, with Scotland more than most, are small "c" conservatives. Change isn't enjoyed by the British people. Remember when Major talked about his "olde worlde" England of mowed lawns, vicars on bikes and cricket on the village green? People knew that was dated but it didn't stop it resonating. With Thatcher reshaping Britain, people resented that their traditional way of life, no matter how hard it was (men didn't want their sons to go down the pit but knew it was there as a fallback), disappearing. In the South East though, people never felt richer, hence the divide between the North and the South.

 

Labour played up to this in Scotland. I can recall Donald Dewar once saying that he wanted "Scotland to be independent inside the UK". That statement is stupid but he was never challenged on it. Labour are now reaping what they sowed by successfully portraying as the "Scottish Raj". The SNP are doing to them what they did to the Tories and they don't know how to respond to it.

 

This is true to an extent, yet if the Conservative party manages to make inroads into the Labour strongholds of the North at the next election, which is quite possible, but not Scotland, it would suggest that the North-South divide was more national in character than social. It begs the question as to whether the Scots are less willing to forgive. The people in Scotland could become independent, which in itself is a somewhat radical change, simply because voting Conservative goes against the grain and because Labour is now seen as a spent force. This would leave the Labour party fragmented in England, and abandoned in Scotland Thatcher's legacy could, therefore, be the break up of the Union and the destruction of the Labour party. Perhaps she will live to see it.

[billco98]

Margaret Hilda Thatcher and Ronald Reagan ditched Keynesian economics and instead introduced the monetorist theories of Milton Freidman to create the 'Anglo Saxon' economic model which we have followed for the past 30 years. 'de-regulation' and 'the market knows best' were the mantras.

 

Well, here we are 30 years later and that theory has taken us down one helluva long cul-de-sac. It's going to be a long and painful road back from here and Keynesian economics will now return with a vengence.

 

Back in 1979 the Labour Party was toying with the idea of nationalising banks and other financial institutions. Maggie came in on her white charger and saved the day for her fat cat banker friends in London's Clubland. She would roll back the state, sell off all nationalised industries and assets including public utilities and see off socialism for good. North Sea oil revenues would pave the way. Well, the chickens have come home to roost and, irony of ironies, a (New) Labour government is having to nationalise banks and building societies. You couldn't make it up.

 

The trouble is, as always, it is Joe Public who will have to bail the fat cats out.

 

Now, if only we had followed continental Europe and stuck with Keynes we might be better placed. We might have invested our oil wealth in tangible assets e.g. we might have had a 21st century railway system, a decent well funded education system and a solid base of 'high Value Added' industries. Instead of that Maggie's much vaunted one trick pony, the financial services based economy has just disappeared down the plughole.

 

Monetarism, de-regulation, downright illegal banking practices and unbridled corporate and public greed and avarice have resulted in a 'smoke & mirrors' economic system which appeared to defy proven economic models like Keynes'.

 

Gordon Brown would have taken pelters from the right and from the middle classes had he interfered with a system that was apparently successful in maintaining the longest sustained period of economic growth, low interest rates, low inflation and reduced levels of unemployment with high levels of labour demand in over a century.

 

The strategic public infrastructure of Britain had taken such a battering from close on 20 years of Tory criminal neglect that he had to re-invest in order to stop the rot and attempt to bring these up to 21st century standards. Unfortunately he fell into the trap of raising the taxation using the stealth methods introduced by Tory governments in the eighties and nineties instead of introducing an openly progressive taxation system in which the wealthy contributed a fairer share to the pot.

 

If Brown can get us through this mess without the economy sustaining mortal damage then he will have a golden opportunity to put the country back on a Keynesian track and put to bed the disastrous Thatcher legacy once and for all. True Social Democracy is what the country needs.

 

The last thing the country needs is a return to Thatcherism under Old Etonian, David Cameron.

[Malinga the Swinga]

Thatcher may have been responsible for many things, but I'm sorry, you can't pin this crisis on her. Blair and New Labour had many years in oposition to work out what they would do when they were in power and they have had 10 years or so to implement these plans.

 

No more boom and bust said Brown, I'm a prudent chancellor said Brown. What a lot of rubbish. This bunch of champagne socalists have had their faces in the trough for 10 years and all people do is blame Maggie.

 

Who sold off Britain's gold at the lowest price possible, who gave the B of E independance from looking after the banks and then filled the FSA with it's unelected cronies. Blair and Labour. Who takes us into war and then won't spend money on providing troops with what they want. Blair's new Labour. Who are more intwined in sleaze than any previous goverment. Blair and New Labour. Who have brought back Mandy, twice sacked for fiddling money, New Labour.

 

Who promised a referendum on the treaty in Europe, yet changed the name of the thing and now won't do the referendum, New Labour.

 

Wo raided pension funds and destroyed people's retirement plans. New Labour under Blair and Brown.

 

Who has overseen the reduction of police present on the streets, leaving gangs and knife crime to become commom place. New Labour.

 

Who lets prisoners out early and brought in the 'Human Rights' act that benefits criminals more than victims. Who is soft on crime. New Labour.

 

Who has let immigration take place, and their is nothing wrong with letting in those who will work to the country, to such an extent that they don't even know how many immigrants are in the country, legal or iilegal. New Labour.

 

Thatcher may have crushed the minors their industry, and changed the UK face of business, but this lot are a joke. At least she told you face to face what she thought and if you didn't like it, then tough. Blair and Brown would stab you in the back as soon as look at you.

 

Even Maggie went back to serving in the back benches when she lost Tory leadership. As soon as Blair gave up PM's job, off he goes to coin in more cash. Where's his loyalty, where is his service to the people. Nope it's speaches and directorships for Tony. How much, yes please, I'll do that job. The man is the worst face of politics this country has ever seen, and his replacement is next.

 

Roll on the next election and let us send them into years of opposition where they belong.

 

The last thing the country needs is a return to true Socialism under Brown, Ball, Mandelson or Milliband.

[brownkg]

Thatcher may have been responsible for many things, but I'm sorry, you can't pin this crisis on her. Blair and New Labour had many years in oposition to work out what they would do when they were in power and they have had 10 years or so to implement these plans.

 

No more boom and bust said Brown, I'm a prudent chancellor said Brown. What a lot of rubbish. This bunch of champagne socalists have had their faces in the trough for 10 years and all people do is blame Maggie.

 

Who sold off Britain's gold at the lowest price possible, who gave the B of E independance from looking after the banks and then filled the FSA with it's unelected cronies. Blair and Labour. Who takes us into war and then won't spend money on providing troops with what they want. Blair's new Labour. Who are more intwined in sleaze than any previous goverment. Blair and New Labour. Who have brought back Mandy, twice sacked for fiddling money, New Labour.

 

Who promised a referendum on the treaty in Europe, yet changed the name of the thing and now won't do the referendum, New Labour.

 

Wo raided pension funds and destroyed people's retirement plans. New Labour under Blair and Brown.

 

Who has overseen the reduction of police present on the streets, leaving gangs and knife crime to become commom place. New Labour.

 

Who lets prisoners out early and brought in the 'Human Rights' act that benefits criminals more than victims. Who is soft on crime. New Labour.

 

Who has let immigration take place, and their is nothing wrong with letting in those who will work to the country, to such an extent that they don't even know how many immigrants are in the country, legal or iilegal. New Labour.

 

Thatcher may have crushed the minors their industry, and changed the UK face of business, but this lot are a joke. At least she told you face to face what she thought and if you didn't like it, then tough. Blair and Brown would stab you in the back as soon as look at you.

 

Even Maggie went back to serving in the back benches when she lost Tory leadership. As soon as Blair gave up PM's job, off he goes to coin in more cash. Where's his loyalty, where is his service to the people. Nope it's speaches and directorships for Tony. How much, yes please, I'll do that job. The man is the worst face of politics this country has ever seen, and his replacement is next.

 

Roll on the next election and let us send them into years of opposition where they belong.

 

The last thing the country needs is a return to true Socialism under Brown, Ball, Mandelson or Milliband.

 

The witch of course did none of that but went back meekly to the back benches...."Wish I could get her PR representing me" T B liar 2007