3-5-2

[We_are_the_Hearts]

Not a great fan of the formation but would we get more out our current squad playing it?

 

.................................Kello

.................Zaliukas..........Karipidis...........Berra.......................

Jonssson.......Kingston......Aguair...........Stewart...............Driver

........................Tullberg...................Nade............................

 

Still leaves us Miko, Obua, Cesney, Nade, Ruben, Rapnik and Glen as back up and we don't have to play ANY of our weak full backs. Thoughts?

[shaun.lawson]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/european_football/article4842881.ece

 

Tactics are not immune to fashion trends. And one approach that has gone the way of bell-bottoms and monocles is the three-man defence. Look around the Continent and you will find only a handful of sides using it with any regularity. Indeed, Bayern Munich are the only Champions League club who went into the season with three at the back.

 

That may or may not explain why, after six Bundesliga games, they sit in mid-table with eight points. Not what was expected from the Bavarian giants’ comeback season.

 

J?rgen Klinsmann, the Bayern coach, opted for a 3-5-2 formation this summer, after employing a more orthodox 4-4-2 at the helm of Germany, whom he guided to the World Cup semi-finals two years ago. It is tempting to suggest that it was a classic case of overthinking, perhaps brought on by a Palinesque lack of experience because this is Klinsmann’s first club job.

 

His logic was simple. Klinsmann loved the idea of having a man advantage in midfield, believing that this is where games are won and lost. And to judge from the proliferation of one-striker systems, he is not the only one who believes this.

 

Yet dropping one of his two forwards was not really an option, given that Miroslav Klose and Luca Toni scored 60 goals between them last season.

 

And so, rather than subtracting up top, he did so at the back, turning his full backs into wing backs and inserting an extra central defender. Presto! A 3-5-2 was born. He knew it was not necessarily a long-term solution because Franck Rib?ry, injured at the start of the season with an ankle problem, would return at some point and he is only productive on the wing. Yet Klinsmann was convinced that, in the short term, it would yield results.

 

It all backfired to the point that Bayern returned to a 4-4-2 against Hanover on Saturday, not that it made much of a difference because they lost 1-0. What is interesting is why the 3-5-2 did not work and why such tactical schemes are virtually extinct.

 

Two reasons are generally cited. The first is that the vaunted “man advantage” that the 3-5-2 formation produces is nullified when opponents drop one of the strikers into midfield. All of a sudden, it is five v five and your central defenders are marking one player. Plus, when you are defending, your wing back is out on the flank against two opponents, the full back and the wide midfield player, which puts him at a disadvantage.

 

The other reason is that, for a three-man defence to work, you need at least one player who is comfortable on the ball and can turn into an adjunct attacker when needed, either by making runs into midfield or accurately hitting long passes. Matthias Sammer epitomised this for Germany and Borussia Dortmund in the 1990s. Bayern’s centre backs – Daniel van Buyten, Martin Demichelis and L?cio – are decent defenders, but none of them will ever be mistaken for Franz Beckenbauer.

 

So is the three-man defence dead? Not necessarily, but it does require a rethink. And, as long as teams continue to shy away from playing with two fixed strikers, it’s hard to see it making a comeback, at least not in the 3-5-2 format.

 

The way football is going, if you have to play three at the back, a 3-4-3 may be better, provided you have the right personnel, namely wingers who work hard and can pin back the opposing full backs and at least one central defender who can join the attack on a regular basis.

 

Who knows? Maybe that will be the next big tactical evolution in the game. Just do not expect Klinsmann to be the one championing it. He has been traumatised enough by his back-three experiment.

[We_are_the_Hearts]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/european_football/article4842881.ece

 

Like I said I am not a great fan and understand the weaknesses of it but I just feel it would get more out of our team by taking away the need to play full backs. Ours are SO bad!

[shaun.lawson]

Like I said I am not a great fan and understand the weaknesses of it but I just feel it would get more out of our team by taking away the need to play full backs. Ours are SO bad!

 

Oh, I know what you mean. I was talking about this with another Jambo a while back; and we agreed that while full back is maybe the toughest position on the park at the very highest level, at our more modest one, it's probably the easiest - yet we still chronically struggle there! Trouble is though, without a ball playing central defender (unless Berra could possibly do it), and with most of our opponents playing 4-5-1, it probably wouldn't work, for the reasons laid out in the article.

[We_are_the_Hearts]

Oh, I know what you mean. I was talking about this with another Jambo a while back; and we agreed that while full back is maybe the toughest position on the park at the very highest level, at our more modest one, it's probably the easiest - yet we still chronically struggle there! Trouble is though, without a ball playing central defender (unless Berra could possibly do it), and with most of our opponents playing 4-5-1, it probably wouldn't work, for the reasons laid out in the article.

 

Would Karipidis not be considered a ball player? He isn't strong enough in the tackle or header for my liking and gets pushed about sometimes but he seems to be able to read a game and can pass if given enough time. Our full backs are causing desperate times. Maybe time just to shove Jonny Brown and Deland in, they couldn't do any worse!

[shaun.lawson]

Would Karipidis not be considered a ball player? He isn't strong enough in the tackle or header for my liking and gets pushed about sometimes but he seems to be able to read a game and can pass if given enough time. Our full backs are causing desperate times. Maybe time just to shove Jonny Brown and Deland in, they couldn't do any worse!

 

Fair point. After writing what I did above, I did stop and wonder "hmm - but what about Karipidis?" So you might well be onto something - and certainly, it's questionable whether 4-4-1-1 is doing us any good at the mo.

 

I wonder what Csaba thinks, and whether he'd be prepared (or indeed would be able) to switch systems?

[Deevers]

Would Karipidis not be considered a ball player? He isn't strong enough in the tackle or header for my liking and gets pushed about sometimes but he seems to be able to read a game and can pass if given enough time. Our full backs are causing desperate times. Maybe time just to shove Jonny Brown and Deland in, they couldn't do any worse!

 

Excellent suggestion - and we should get Jonsson back into the "holding" midfield role and Karipidis back to replace Zaliukas in the middle of our defence. Karipidas may have his faults - but Zaliukas is a "bombscare" just now and libel to cost us something in every game he plays.

[allystrachan]

did jeffries not used to use this to quite good effect?

 

i like the look of that team.

[JamboAl]

Sometimes we get caught up too much in systems: we must play what is best to match the ability of the players we have. 3-5-2 could quickly develop during the game to 5-3-2 while 4-4-1-1 soon becomes 4-5-1 or even 8-2 when we defend a corner.

 

Our main problem is a lack of practice on the training ground. We have 2 strikers, Mole and Makela whose second touch is a foul/booking, players taking free kicks and totally wasting them while others do pretend jumps instead of imposing themselves in a challenge.

These are areas where practice would make improvement whatever system we employ or are forced into by the opposition. We need to spend more quality time on basics.

[Johanes de Silentio]

I quite like the old 3-5-2 thing - full backs/wing backs are expected to get forward and put crosses in anyway, regardless of the formation, aren't they?

 

Not sure about Driver at LWB, and what do we do with all the spare wingers? (i.e. Cesny, Miko, Driver, etc)

 

Maybe Obua at LWB?

 

Or maybe Wallace would be better with the added security of an extra defender covering?

 

Also, it's less about formations, more about tactics, less about tactics, more about the players - in order to play any system, you have to have the players to do it successfully.

 

A back four is also easier to organise, and very few coaches at the top level use the 3-5-2 system.

 

I remember a few years ago it was claimed that Glasgow ****ing Celtic's inability to reach the latter stages of the Champions League was due to their use of the 3-5-2, and O'Niel switched to a back four for the European games.

 

THE TRUTH IS THAT THE REASON THEY DIDNAE GO FURTHER THAN THEY DID IS BECAUSE THEY WEREN'T GUID ENOUGH - FACT - END OF!

 

I remember when JJ took over he said he was abandoning McLean's 3-5-2, based on the idea that we could do without the extra defender and use that extra body further up the park.

 

Jefferies, (I would say) mainly went for a 4-4-2 going on a 4-3-3, with the wide midfielder (usually Neil McCann) acting as an auxiliary forward.

 

Worked for Jefferies - but then he had better players than we currently have.

 

I keep coming back to the same point: We need better players!

 

3-5-2 could be OK, but I can't see Csaba going for it, can you?

 

Al.

[Manny1874]

Would Karipidis not be considered a ball player? He isn't strong enough in the tackle or header for my liking and gets pushed about sometimes but he seems to be able to read a game and can pass if given enough time. Our full backs are causing desperate times. Maybe time just to shove Jonny Brown and Deland in, they couldn't do any worse!

 

Dont know about Johnny Brown but from what I have seen Michael Deland still has a bit to go before he is ready for the first team. Looking forward to Craig Thomson coming through at right back though. Looks a real good prospect. Far better than Jason Thomson was at his age.