New Main Stand: Should Hearts go back to the drawing board?

[Buffalo Bill]

Instead of spending ?51M+ on the stadium redevelopment, should (or could) Hearts just spend a lesser amount of money on a more modest structure?

 

Could we build a decent sized stand on the current footprint?

 

Could we use the land to incporporate changing rooms/offices/suites elsewhere?

 

Could it be done for say, ?5M?

 

What could the capacity be?

 

Could it still be two tier, with corporate boxes etc?

 

Is this a more sensible idea?

 

Or am I talking b o l o x?

 

We have to do something with all that Capri Sun.

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

[Guest juvehearts]

Instead of spending ?51M+ on the stadium redevelopment, should (or could) Hearts just spend a lesser amount of money on a more modest structure?

 

Could we build a decent sized stand on the current footprint?

 

Could we use the land to incporporate changing rooms/offices/suites elsewhere?

 

Could it be done for say, ?5M?

 

What could the capacity be?

 

Could it still be two tier, with corporate boxes etc?

 

Is this a more sensible idea?

 

Or am I talking b o l o x?

 

We have to do something with all that Capri Sun.

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

 

 

no its far too a senciable post BB

 

think again!

[sked21]

Good post.

 

Research should be done into seeing if it is plausible.

 

Was reading World Soccer last night and it Hoffenhiem are bukilding a 30,000 seater stadium for ?50m.

[Gibbo]

What about the following?

 

Gut the existing Main Stand but leave the facade. Then rebuild it with modern materials replacing the wood and asbestos and with no pillars. If feasible, add an extra tier, but I suspect that it wouldn't be. Make the bulk of the seats in it corporate or premium, aimed at well heeled fans. The corporate people would then not be next to ordinary punters, which seemed to be the problem in the Gorgie Stand. Possibly there could be a permanent away fans premium section at the Roseburn end of the stand.

 

Section N season ticket holders could be moved to Section G to ensure a singing section.

 

Exercise our option to buy the former social club from the Council, if we haven't already done so. It would then revert to its original purpose and would be used for match day hospitality, for both corporate guests and well heeled fans.

 

The Gorgie Suite could then become a sports bar for ordinary fans.

[cobbyshambles]

maybe research is being done...

[Mon]

It would be the sensible option. Just get the stand to pass the safety certificate. Mind you I think I'm correct in thinking there is absestos involved which always seems to be costly.

 

The trouble is Romanov was only doing this to make money on the business centre/hotel.

 

Will he be willing to spend a lot of money that isn't really going to make him much in return?

[Cut The Crap]

Given the disparity between the talk that has been talked and the walk that has been walked so far under Vlad, I suspect we may end up with something more like this...

 

 

Sad thing is it will probably be big enough.

[brellierlegend]

We are not even selling out Tynecastle now so whats the point in building a bigger stand right now. Eventually replacing the main stand with a Wheatfield type stand would be the best option.

 

However, I would like to see us work on getting rid of the debt we have to be honest. Everyone loves the team doing well but securing our long term future is the most important thing.

 

Apparently its sitting at around 15 million. Unfortunately the short term focus should be on bringing through young talent and making good money on them like with Craig Gordon.

[The Don]

I believe a smaller option was looked into at the time, and plans were drawn up for a stand only option. george Foulkes while he was at the club stated that both avenues were being explored as well as the option to totally rebuild Tynecastle by turning the pitch 90 degrees.

 

A stand only option would be the best idea with the possibility of attracting a big name sponsor for the stand and naming it after them which would majorly cut costs. I think the amount quoted for 10,000 seat a stand only option at the time was 8million, sell the rights to the stand for 10 years for 5million and that leaves us with only 3million to find. Of course after a 10 year tenure has ran out whoever has had the naming rights could have the option of renewing this or another sponsor could be found, bringing in revenue again. I don't think 5million for a ten year naming rights of the stand is a lot. How much did we get from Umbro for how many years?

 

Does this seem like pie in the sky stuff or to sensible?

[topcat]

Good post.

 

Research should be done into seeing if it is plausible.

 

Was reading World Soccer last night and it Hoffenhiem are building a 30,000 seater stadium for ?50m.

 

If you think Vlad's a bit crazy you should check out what Dietmar Hopp is up to in Hoffenheim a settlement barely bigger than Gretna.

[Buffalo Bill]

I bet there are ways of building up on a small footprint.

 

 

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

[Ray Winstone]

There was an article in I think the Daily Ranger today ( I was in the Barbers reading it) and it said that whenever it was built the Donald Smith stand (or whatever it is called) up here in Aberdeen cost ?4.5 million.

 

That is where they have all their corporate boxes, club shop etc etc so I dont see why Hearts cant have an all singing all dancing stand for under ?10million.

 

You would love to see them do that but it is the conference centre and hotel that Vlad is really interested in!

[Buffalo Bill]

There was an article in I think the Daily Ranger today ( I was in the Barbers reading it)

 

 

mmm hhhmm.

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

[jambonian]

We've been going on and on about a new main stand now for about 12 years with various different designs and none have come to fruition, everytime i hear about this stand i know it's all pie-in-the-sky !

[Buffalo Bill]

We've been going on and on about a new main stand now for about 12 years with various different designs and none have come to fruition, everytime i hear about this stand i know it's all pie-in-the-sky !

 

 

But is the kind of new Main Stand that I mentioned in the OP "pie in the sky"?

 

If so, why?

 

What I'm trying to achieve with this thread is to bring that pie down to Earth.

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

[jambonian]

But is the kind of new Main Stand that I mentioned in the OP "pie in the sky"?

 

If so, why?

 

What I'm trying to achieve with this thread is to bring that pie down to Earth.

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

For what it's worth, i think your idea is a pretty good solution, the only problem is usually the council or someone tries to put a spanner in the works everytime we think we're getting somewhere, this dosen't happen in other parts of the country (that i'm aware of) it seems other clubs can build whole new stadiums never mind just a stand and teams that come to our stadium, whether Europe or for friendlies, must think we live in the dark ages, which i find embarrassing. We're supposed to be an ambitious club with higher aspirations but we just keep going through the motions with no real target ahead no matter what solutions are put forward.

[topcat]

What about the following?

 

Gut the existing Main Stand but leave the facade. Then rebuild it with modern materials replacing the wood and asbestos and with no pillars. If feasible, add an extra tier, but I suspect that it wouldn't be. Make the bulk of the seats in it corporate or premium, aimed at well heeled fans. The corporate people would then not be next to ordinary punters, which seemed to be the problem in the Gorgie Stand. Possibly there could be a permanent away fans premium section at the Roseburn end of the stand.

 

Firstly the facade of the main stand isn't worth saving and building round it would be awkward and costly. The idea of making it into corporate/premium seating seems at odds with attempting to fit it into a tight space. It would make more sense to upgrade the Wheatfield into the new "Main" stand by building more facilities underneath and behind while putting the less well heeled in the tighter and more cramped new East stand.

 

Tynecastle is actually unusual in having the historic Main stand on the East side as it was more common to put it on the west side so that it's occupants didn't get the sun in their eyes on Winter afternoons.

 

As for the general idea of scaling back the project.

 

If a stand is built without the redevelopment of Mcleod street then there will be lots of logistical problems should anybody ever wish to develop that site later while the new stand is operational.

 

Also

 

The first 4,500 seats you build aren't going to generate any extra capacity meaning that while a 9,000 seat stand (for example) will cost about 50% more than a 6,000 seat stand it'll generate 3 times as much extra capacity.

 

Of course there are diminishing returns from extra seats. The 4,000th extra seat isn't going to be filled as often as the 1st one but it doesn't have to be filled every week to break even. If you're going to spend a large lump of investment on a new stand you may as well do it properly and build enough to cope with good seasons.

 

We don't need any more seats at the moment and if last seasons debacle were to be repeated a few more times then we could probably get away with three stands but good seasons will happen.

 

The limited capacity at Tynecastle has represented a ceiling on our ambitions for at least 70 years

 

If we do get a vintage team together then not enough people can actually get in to see it to generate the funds needed to keep it running. We could afford to buy Neil McCann from Dundee and Colin Cameron from Raith but after they'd excelled in 1998 they were worth more than we could afford.

 

With Craig Gordon we were able to briefly defy financial gravity and pay a reported ?1.5m salary to one player from a turnover of only ?10m. That gamble paid off but it was a gamble nonetheless to effectively pay him about ?100 from each season ticket sale.

 

Craig Gordon is an extreme example and even 23,000 sell out crowds would be unlikely to enable us to keep hold of a player valued at ?9m for his whole career, he was destined for an even bigger stage than that, but the point stands.

 

Sorry if that's all a bit jumbled

[Mysterion]

But is the kind of new Main Stand that I mentioned in the OP "pie in the sky"?

.

 

probably not. would need tight control and an incredible amount of luck.

 

i would still like to see a fan funded scheme where by we loan the money (via a UKIO or UK bank which is accredited/guaranteed) to Hearts etc or there's a savings product where by profits are put into stand development.

[Buffalo Bill]

probably not. would need tight control and an incredible amount of luck.

 

i would still like to see a fan funded scheme where by we loan the money (via a UKIO or UK bank which is accredited/guaranteed) to Hearts etc or there's a savings product where by profits are put into stand development.

 

Even if Hearts were to scale back the project, it could still look really good. For starters, you could problably see more of the stand than you just now with its low roof, giving the allusion of a much bigger stand.

 

It doesn't have to be another pink bus shelter.

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

[Craig_]

I'm sure that was the plan all those years ago when they rebuilt the other three stands. Seem to remember a model in the window of the club shop when it was in the wee building in front of the main stand. Basically just a mirror image of the Wheatfield.

 

Looked very smart indeed! Can't find any pictures though...

[Mysterion]

Even if Hearts were to scale back the project, it could still look really good.

.

 

hey man - that's not what i meant. i just meant that i didnt' think hearts could do it.

 

there isn't the skill / professional capability etc to do the job.

for hearts to deliver a new stand, they need an expert on a bonus related contract where delivery of the project = pay.

 

as for a rethink - yes they could do something decent, but the cost and sustainability could be dubious.

 

i am also not sure it could be done for 5mill... not unless there was a construction company who would take an agreed contract with no room for charging extra... but then costs for architects / surveyors etc would need to be added to that (plus more i think)

[knoxyjambo]

I'd be happy if they just mirrored the Wheatfield Stand to be honest and they'd have a bit more room to play with at the McLeod Street side for corporate etc.

 

Go and build your hotel, fancy flats somewhere else.

[PTBCAL]

As a minimum we need to replace the roof (asbestos), improve the exits, and replace all wooden seats and stairways.

 

I reckon ?2.5-?3m could cover it.

[knoxyjambo]

Double post,

 

Internet at work at this time slow as ***!

[Horse]

Posted on here several times we should have a main stand similar to the one at Easter Road. Was bulit in 6 months and never cost ?51 million.

[WindyMiller]

I'm sure I read recently that a basic stand, on a cleared piece of land, costs in the region of ?2k per seat to build.

[Nookie Bear]

There definitely has to be a rethink on this new stand idea as ?51m is pure folly on a club of our size (am I right in thinking that even the hotel attached to Stamford Bridge is a drain on Chelsea's resources?)

 

A simple stand on a similar basis to the Wheatfield, but with two levels to give it a bit more of a grand look and a more respectable interior should be feasible on a vastly reduced scale. Surely??

[walton1983]

Instead of spending ?51M+ on the stadium redevelopment, should (or could) Hearts just spend a lesser amount of money on a more modest structure?

 

Could we build a decent sized stand on the current footprint?

 

Could we use the land to incporporate changing rooms/offices/suites elsewhere?

 

Could it be done for say, ?5M?

 

What could the capacity be?

 

Could it still be two tier, with corporate boxes etc?

 

Is this a more sensible idea?

 

Or am I talking b o l o x?

 

We have to do something with all that Capri Sun.

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

 

Discussed this on a thread many months ago and was shot down for suggesting something like this. A sensible suggestion for Hearts going forward but only if the owner is interested in the well being of the club. That's debatable.

[Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC]

I don't think Romanov would be interested in a new stand alone.

 

I think his priority is the hotel, the stand is just an add on.

 

Good suggestion though and the sensible option.

[Buffalo Bill]

Would the council, God bless their little neck scarves -allow us to raze the old stand, and build a new one the footprint?

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

[Pants Shaton]

Would the council, God bless their little neck scarves -allow us to raze the old stand, and build a new one the footprint?

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

 

No doubt some vegetarian, former hippy, Liberal Democrat will find something to object to.

[Craigieboy]

Posted on here several times we should have a main stand similar to the one at Easter Road. Was bulit in 6 months and never cost ?51 million.

 

Yea. Lets build a ****ty tin can like the other 3 we have.

 

Naw, naw, naw.

 

This has to be classy to show the gulf in what it is to be Hearts as opossed to hibs. Lets show them up for the pis hy wee outfit that they are.

 

Personally, the bigger the better at Tyne. Lets look to the future.

 

I want gold elephants & stuffed pellicans in the foyer.

 

Lets go for it!

 

.

[Buffalo Bill]

 

I want gold elephants & stuffed pellicans in the foyer.

 

Lets go for it!

 

.

 

 

The British Empire: them were the days!

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

[stirlo]

Given the current financial climate I do not thing the main stand project, in its current form should go ahead.

 

I am still of the view that long term, shifting the pitch round 90 degrees and rebuilding the whole stadium would be the best option. I suspect this would offer better value fro money too. ?51m for one stand is a lot of money.

[portobellojambo1]

I think, when i was arguing the case way back on a previous incarnation of JKB, this was what I suggested BB. What I envisaged at that time was something along the same lines as the Wheatfield, but with the addition of either corporate boxes, or a corporate area, and changing rooms etc beneath.

 

It has always been my argument that you build the team first and the fans will come, building the stadium first seemed to be the erse to tit way of doing it as far as I was, and am, concerned. And I am sure it can be done under the existing planning application, and I think it would have no problems getting passed if we were to indicate our intentions were smaller. I think we definitely need something, because I am not sure if the existing structure is repairable/tartuppable, and the safety certificate expires in the not too distant future.

[Boaby Ewing]

I think it's a moot point -- I can't see any stand going up in the next five years.

 

That's not a dig at Romanov (even if he deserves a few) -- just the reality as I see it.

[loganjambo]

Would the council, God bless their little neck scarves -allow us to raze the old stand, and build a new one the footprint?

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

would it not be easier/cheeper, to just renovate the old stand new seats/facilities/roof etc

[Saint Jambo]

I doubt that anyone is likely to be willing to plough into Hearts the millions of pounds required for a new stand of any sort. Hearts haven't ever been able to run at the kind of profit that would allow the investment to be paid back. The only reason Romanov was ever able to justify funding it was to allow for the building of the hotel and apartments.

 

Worrying the number of people saying things like ?51m for one stand seems a lot. ?51m was going to pay for a lot more than just one stand.

[Guest Fabuloso]

Instead of spending ?51M+ on the stadium redevelopment, should (or could) Hearts just spend a lesser amount of money on a more modest structure?

 

Could we build a decent sized stand on the current footprint?

 

Could we use the land to incporporate changing rooms/offices/suites elsewhere?

 

Could it be done for say, ?5M?

 

What could the capacity be?

 

Could it still be two tier, with corporate boxes etc?

 

Is this a more sensible idea?

 

Or am I talking b o l o x?

 

We have to do something with all that Capri Sun.

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

 

Possibly, however we don't want to sell ourselves short. Another bland block stand kind of defeats the purpose a little. Why have another McDermaid, Easter Rd, Rugby Park,etc). The original idea is, in my opinion, an excellent one - albeit far-reaching. I suppose the danger of it going ahead is that it ties in UBIG even further which is obviously a demoralising scenario.

 

Rock and a hard place I guess..

[Dunks]

Just take all the seats out. Capacity was 30,000 when I started going to Tynie and the place rocked big time

[Charlie-Brown]

I doubt that anyone is likely to be willing to plough into Hearts the millions of pounds required for a new stand of any sort. Hearts haven't ever been able to run at the kind of profit that would allow the investment to be paid back. The only reason Romanov was ever able to justify funding it was to allow for the building of the hotel and apartments.

 

Worrying the number of people saying things like ?51m for one stand seems a lot. ?51m was going to pay for a lot more than just one stand.

 

Good post!

[jlo2]

Instead of spending ?51M+ on the stadium redevelopment, should (or could) Hearts just spend a lesser amount of money on a more modest structure?

 

Could we build a decent sized stand on the current footprint?

 

Could we use the land to incorporate changing rooms/offices/suites elsewhere?

 

Could it be done for say, ?5M?

 

What could the capacity be?

 

Could it still be two tier, with corporate boxes etc?

All quite sensible apart from the ?5million price tag.

 

A 6,000 seater two tier stand could be built for ?15million. Maybe?

 

On the subject of cost the ?51million for the proposed scheme will be way too light in view of the increases in the cost of steel. Probably ?80million plus.

[Buffalo Bill]

All quite sensible apart from the ?5million price tag.

 

A 6,000 seater two tier stand could be built for ?15million. Maybe?

 

 

 

I don't know, but I'm pretty sure the Easter Road stand cost way less then that.

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

[Buffalo Bill]

would it not be easier/cheeper, to just renovate the old stand new seats/facilities/roof etc

 

I think it would depend on how plush a new structure would be.

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

[Buffalo Bill]

I doubt that anyone is likely to be willing to plough into Hearts the millions of pounds required for a new stand of any sort. Hearts haven't ever been able to run at the kind of profit that would allow the investment to be paid back. The only reason Romanov was ever able to justify funding it was to allow for the building of the hotel and apartments.

 

Worrying the number of people saying things like ?51m for one stand seems a lot. ?51m was going to pay for a lot more than just one stand.

 

I'd like to think that most of us are well aware that the ?51M is for a whole development, and not just a stand. Perhaps our friends from Lochend will see it as the latter but that's their brief.

 

In a way, I'm trying to understand the justification of the reality by pitching something which may appear to be fantasy. It's good to get these sort of threads onto the board so that we can all share a little, and maybe learn a little.

 

?51M is (I think) going onto our books (clarification needed here).

 

Do we need that?

 

Could we just get the a stand built for say the cost of Roman Bednar and (hopefully) Jose Goncalves?

 

Right now, it's all up in the air. But one day, as a football club, and a business: we need to move beyond this.

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

[Coco]

Hotels/other leisure facilities attached to football clubs nearly took Kilmarnock, Chelsea, Hibs (and Dunfermline?) under when their owners misjudged the cost/revenue situation.

 

Thankfully, the lack of finance at the moment means that this will be unlikely to happen at Hearts. Which institution is likely to take up office space at Tynecastle in the current climate in Edinburgh? :eek:Are all those hotels which are going up at the moment going to be filled? Much of a market for luxury apartments?

 

I hope that the club are preparing a contingency of the works required to get the stand through the safety checks.

[PTBCAL]

This is crazy but what worries me is that with the debt down to around ?20m and the land value at Tynie around ?15-?17m VR could effectively cut his losses and walk away.

 

We are then back at Sq1 - no debt but no ground. Let's not kid ourselves - THAT WOULD BE A DISASTER.

 

However if he builds and the debt is circa ?60m - then he would not contemplate selling Tynecastle in an effort to recover his losses as it would be pointless.

 

In essence is it better to have a debt that we cannot pay off - like ?60-70m or do we have a more manageable debt that the ground could be sold to pay off?

 

What choices!!!!

[Deans Jambo]

I'd like to think that most of us are well aware that the ?51M is for a whole development, and not just a stand. Perhaps our friends from Lochend will see it as the latter but that's their brief.

 

In a way, I'm trying to understand the justification of the reality by pitching something which may appear to be fantasy. It's good to get these sort of threads onto the board so that we can all share a little, and maybe learn a little.

 

?51M is (I think) going onto our books (clarification needed here).

 

Do we need that?

 

Could we just get the a stand built for say the cost of Roman Bednar and (hopefully) Jose Goncalves?

 

Right now, it's all up in the air. But one day, as a football club, and a business: we need to move beyond this.

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

 

Would it be to strong to suggest that Romanov's continued interest may hinge on the stadium development going ahead?....scary thought!

 

Would he think a scaled down stand (with no extras) would be worthwhile in the hope that filling it with supporters would pay back the cost?

 

If the development of Tynecastle doesn't go ahead would he as a business man believe that a move away from Tynecastle would make more sense long term?

 

Personally understand why he would he would look to increase revenue with the inclusion of a hotel, apartments etc but in this current economic climate would this be wise?...would the outlay ever seriously be recovered over the years?

 

Sorry for all the questions (not specifically directed at you BB) but kind of thinking out loud (so to speak).

[londonjambo72]

the plan to increase the stadium is one driver but not the main driver. i think you have all missed the point that Vlad, i am not convinced the scheme will be completed, and UBIG's rational is that the existing proposed development will create an investment value ie the rental income from the offices etc will provide a return which in theory will be much larger than the gross development value. i have not looked at the scheme in any detail so cannot comment further but for example deveopment costs ?51 million. rental income generated from hotel, offices etc equals ?4.5 to ?5 million creates a investment value of circa ?65 mill to ?72 mill hence the value in your books is ?65mill to ?72 mill. So profit made plus any developers profit that is already factored into the ?51 development costs ie normally 10% to 20%. Obviously investment yeilds are moving out at present and hence the delay from the council may help. Another option is to obtain planning then enter into a devleopment agreemnt with A.N Other and hence share the risk. the above is not defending vlad just stating the rational behind the decsion. spending money on just building a new main stand will not generate as much are in fact as secure an income strem hence the return will not be a s good.

[Buffalo Bill]

spending money on just building a new main stand will not generate as much

 

 

True. But it wouldn't cost as much either. Maybe as 'little' as ?6M.

 

...and then we could move on.

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.