Lehman brothers

[coppercrutch]

I could swear I read this morning that the US Govt bought a chunk of ML's debt to smooth the deal, but I can't find the link anywhere......

 

 

Wouldn't be a surprise. They can just magic up another billion or so from the Fed and add it to the National debt that is growing exponentially.

 

It is amazing the US Government has to pay interest to issue money. That is because the money comes from the privately owned Fed and they charge interest on it. You might ask why don't the US Governement just issue their own money ? Well that is a question that has been asked many times before. The very principle of the Fed goes against the US constituation. At least 4 US Presidents have stated that a privately owned Fed should not be allowed to control the Money Supply. Many have fought against it.

 

 

Lincoln, Wilson and JFK are some that spring to mind IIRC.

 

"Because at a later date, Wilson himself admitted with remorse, when referring to the Fed that, "I have unwittingly ruined my country."

 

 

Woodrow Wilson wrote this in 1916:

 

"Our system of credit is concentrated (in the Federal Reserve System). The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities, are in the hands of a few men."

 

http://www.wealthdaily.com/articles/federal-reserve-creation/1190

[Jammy T]

'kin 'ell, not to mention all the people lower down the foodchain who are in no way culpable.

 

Sadly not just the guys with pin stripe suits suffer here

 

A majority of the staff behind the scenes will be jobless and years worth of share schemes / share bonus rewards now completely worthless

 

There will be a lot of very decent people who's lives will be ruined by this

[Jammy T]

Wouldn't be a surprise. They can just magic up another billion or so from the Fed and add it to the National debt that is growing exponentially.

 

It is amazing the US Government has to pay interest to issue money. That is because the money comes from the privately owned Fed and they charge interest on it. You might ask why don't the US Governement just issue their own money ? Well that is a question that has been asked many times before. The very principle of the Fed goes against the US constituation. At least 4 US Presidents have stated that a privately owned Fed should not be allowed to control the Money Supply. Many have fought against it.

 

 

Lincoln, Wilson and JFK are some that spring to mind IIRC.

 

"Because at a later date, Wilson himself admitted with remorse, when referring to the Fed that, "I have unwittingly ruined my country."

 

 

Woodrow Wilson wrote this in 1916:

 

"Our system of credit is concentrated (in the Federal Reserve System). The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities, are in the hands of a few men."

 

http://www.wealthdaily.com/articles/federal-reserve-creation/1190

 

It is easy to print more dollars

 

It is difficult to keep on doing this and avoid hyperinflation

 

Not inflation - hyperinflation.

 

Boy things would breakdown if that happened in the US. They still need to have a modicum of restraint

[footieman]

Bit harsh on a well known and well respected KB member who was clearing his desk this morning.

 

I tend to agree, as is the usual the people at the top of the tree, who the poster was am guessing getting at, will be fine while the normal joe who was just earning a crust will be tossed onto the scrapheap.

[coppercrutch]

Bit harsh on a well known and well respected KB member who was clearing his desk this morning.

 

Well depends on that individual's situation of course. I will say the following in a very general term for those working in this industry.

 

 

People working in these companies should have seen what was coming. They were happy to be part of it and milk the bonus culture. If that has now ended for a good while then so be it. The smart people will have stored away a nice wee stash of cash and be just fine. The less sharp tools will have snorted it all up their beaks and had a laugh all the way.

 

Either way it's not exactly a sob story akin to 5 year olds making footballs in India is it?.

 

I work for one of the big bad boys at the moment. I am 'making hay whilst the sun still shines'. as they say.

 

That may stop very soon. If it does so be it.

 

You work in an industry that is built on lies, deceit and greed - you live with the consequences.

[Tazio]

Well depends on that individual's situation of course. I will say the following in a very general term for those working in this industry.

 

 

People working in these companies should have seen what was coming. They were happy to be part of it and milk the bonus culture. If that has now ended for a good while then so be it. The smart people will have stored away a nice wee stash of cash and be just fine. The less sharp tools will have snorted it all up their beaks and had a laugh all the way.

 

Either way it's not exactly a sob story akin to 5 year olds making footballs in India is it?.

 

I work for one of the big bad boys at the moment. I am 'making hay whilst the sun still shines'. as they say.

 

That may stop very soon. If it does so be it.

 

You work in an industry that is built on lies, deceit and greed - you live with the consequences.

 

No stereotypes there then. So everyone in banking is fueled by avarice and the urge for a cocaine lifestyle?

[Super T]

What a ridiculous post.

 

So the ordinary worker who purely wants to provide for their families are just as culpable in all this as senior managers!

 

Read your post again and really think about what you are saying and how that would be interpreted by people.

[Rosewood]

Well depends on that individual's situation of course. I will say the following in a very general term for those working in this industry.

 

 

People working in these companies should have seen what was coming. They were happy to be part of it and milk the bonus culture. If that has now ended for a good while then so be it. The smart people will have stored away a nice wee stash of cash and be just fine. The less sharp tools will have snorted it all up their beaks and had a laugh all the way.

 

Either way it's not exactly a sob story akin to 5 year olds making footballs in India is it?.

 

I work for one of the big bad boys at the moment. I am 'making hay whilst the sun still shines'. as they say.

 

That may stop very soon. If it does so be it.

 

You work in an industry that is built on lies, deceit and greed - you live with the consequences.

 

What a lot of cliched nonsense. Lehman will employ a wide range of age and skill ranges from 16 year old mail room workers right up to your 60 year old 'greedy' CEO's and maybe some of them will walk away unscathed by this but a lot of people will not. A lot of 'everyday joe blog' types suffered when Enron went under and you can't say they were culpable.

[Therapist]

I work for one of the big bad boys at the moment. I am 'making hay whilst the sun still shines'. as they say.

 

 

In that case I hope you will be increasing the rent you pay your mum and dad.

[coppercrutch]

It is easy to print more dollars

 

It is difficult to keep on doing this and avoid hyperinflation

 

Not inflation - hyperinflation.

 

Boy things would breakdown if that happened in the US. They still need to have a modicum of restraint

 

Aye still trying to work out what it is deflation or hyperinflation. Half the signs say one, half the other !! Stagflation is what is happening just now apparently. Still difficult to tell what wil come next. Japan looks more and more likely by the day.

 

I tend to agree, as is the usual the people at the top of the tree, who the poster was am guessing getting at, will be fine while the normal joe who was just earning a crust will be tossed onto the scrapheap.

 

Let's be realistic though. The average 'Normal Joe'[/] In Lehmans was probably taking home a bonus in the tens of thousands last year?.

 

I do agree it is the big cheeses that should pay for this. Many of them deserve Jail. Too many friends in high places though.

[coppercrutch]

In that case I hope you will be increasing the rent you pay your mum and dad.

 

I have indeed !! Increased it by a whopping 50%. Inflation and all..

 

PS - Just seen some of the responses above !! Not difficult to guess who works in Finance on this thread...

[Rosewood]

I have indeed !! Increased it by a whopping 50%. Inflation and all..

 

PS - Just seen some of the responses above !! Not difficult to guess who works in Finance on this thread...

 

Fair cop guvnor

[Super T]

I have indeed !! Increased it by a whopping 50%. Inflation and all..

 

PS - Just seen some of the responses above !! Not difficult to guess who works in Finance on this thread...

 

It wouldn't matter what industry i worked in. I think the way that you are suggesting that everyone in the industry is fair game and deserves to lose their jobs is shocking.

 

Your obviously not the member of a union!

[coppercrutch]

No stereotypes there then. So everyone in banking is fueled by avarice and the urge for a cocaine lifestyle?

 

Never said that. We are talking specifically about 'investment' banking here. A very large number of the people in this industry are fuelled by exactly what you describe above. They are also all extremely well paid. (Yes I know they do long hours but still)

 

I know many people who work for banks are are simply doing a job to earn the crust. Good on them for that. However they are working in a pretty ruthless industry - whether they are the tea boy or the CEO.

 

What a ridiculous post.

 

So the ordinary worker who purely wants to provide for their families are just as culpable in all this as senior managers!

 

Read your post again and really think about what you are saying and how that would be interpreted by people.

 

I don't really care how people interpret what I was saying. I work in this industry myself. I think that gives me the right to describe it in any way I wish.

 

What a lot of cliched nonsense. Lehman will employ a wide range of age and skill ranges from 16 year old mail room workers right up to your 60 year old 'greedy' CEO's and maybe some of them will walk away unscathed by this but a lot of people will not. A lot of 'everyday joe blog' types suffered when Enron went under and you can't say they were culpable.

 

Come on be serious !! The vast majority working for Lehmans will have had a bumper few years. Bonus's beyond their wildest dreams. And that goes for the young uns right up to the big boys.

 

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/banking_and_finance/article754348.ece

 

In 2006 their average pay including bonuses etc.. was ?170,933..

 

Of course this may be skewed by some big boys getting bonus's in the tens on millions.

 

However your average bod working for them last year wouild have been taking home a bonus in the 10's of thousands - almost guaranteed.

 

Let's not be having too much sympathy shall we.

 

Can't stand this country these days. Nobody wants to take responsibility for their own actions. It is pretty poor.

 

Sympathy for investment bankers....I have heard it all now...

[coppercrutch]

Fair cop guvnor

 

The Cayman Islands gave it away...

 

It wouldn't matter what industry i worked in. I think the way that you are suggesting that everyone in the industry is fair game and deserves to lose their jobs is shocking.

 

Your obviously not the member of a union!

 

I didn't say everyone deserves to lose their jobs !! They just have to live in the real World and accept the good with the bad. Do you think everyone in the industry 'deserved' their bonus's last year............

 

Of course not. Can't have your cake and eat it. Take the good with the bad. Make hay whilst the sun shines. How many cliches can I fit in one post !!

 

You get the drift though.

[Rosewood]

The Cayman Islands gave it away...

 

I work in insolvency though so business is booming at the moment

[Maximus]

Yep, collective responsibility is something desperately missing in our society in general.

 

I agree with CC that the whole banking system is nothing but a big scam, if you look back at the mechanics of the Great Depression it's plain to see and what we are heading for now is along the same lines. I would also reccomend watching the Money Masters documentary, very interesting stuff. These feckers have been gambling with our livelihoods with imaginary money for decades, what is happening now was always going to happen, widespread complacency (arrogance), from the top down, over the last decade has only added fuel to the fire.

 

Speaking of fuel, if you have not had a look already, look up Peak Oil. Another interesting topic that is interconnected with this one and many in the know (King Abdullah for example) beleive it's already happened.

 

On another note, I had a look back at this thread, I wonder how opinions have changed 7 months on.

 

http://www.hmfckickback.co.uk/showthread.php?t=3750

[Patrick Bateman]

Bit harsh on a well known and well respected KB member who was clearing his desk this morning.

 

That's capitalism and I thought you were a fan of this model. Or are you some sort of communist? I'm offended

[coppercrutch]

Yep, collective responsibility is something desperately missing in our society in general.

 

I agree with CC that the whole banking system is nothing but a big scam, if you look back at the mechanics of the Great Depression it's plain to see and what we are heading for now is along the same lines. I would also reccomend watching the Money Masters documentary, very interesting stuff. These feckers have been gambling with our livelihoods with imaginary money for decades, what is happening now was always going to happen, widespread complacency (arrogance), from the top down, over the last decade has only added fuel to the fire.

 

Speaking of fuel, if you have not had a look already, look up Peak Oil. Another interesting topic that is interconnected with this one and many in the know (King Abdullah for example) beleive it's already happened.

 

On another note, I had a look back at this thread, I wonder how opinions have changed 7 months on.

 

http://www.hmfckickback.co.uk/showthread.php?t=3750

 

That is one nice thread. A certain fellow seems to know his stuff. Goes by the name of CC I believe..

 

Anyway I think I should be congratulated. Of all my rantings and ravings in numerous threads over the last year - I could now go back and quote so many things that would make so many people look incredibly stupid. So all you out there who I am choosing not to look stupid remember this !!! You know who you are. I am a good chap after all.

 

As for peak Oil I am not so sure. I just don't know who to beleive. A lot of conflicting stories. The Oil companies are surely not going to tell us the truth.

 

Option 1 - Tell us that there is in fact way more oil available than we all believe = Oil price falls.

 

Option 2 - Tell us that there is in fact way less oil available than we all believe = Oil price will shoot up in the short term, however the oil companies will not exist as viable businesses.

 

Option 3 - They are simply telling us the truth just now.

 

Now call me a cynic but I don't go for option 3 myself...

 

PS - MONEY MASTERS. EVERYONE SHOULD WATCH IT. In fact I take that back. If everyone watched it the banks would collapse !!

[david mcgee]

Every person who has a pension will be poorer as a result of this credit crunch.

Every industry that provides goods and services to the financial sector will suffer.

As unemployment soars and consequently peoples spending is curtailed virtually everyone will suffer.

 

As much as i feel sorry for anyone that looses a job, there will be vastly more poorly paid people who will suffer more than those at Lehman Brothers.

[coppercrutch]

I am prepared for a deluge of people stating that 'They saw this coming all along'..........

 

OMG.

 

I have seen a whole crowd of these jokers today. Some expert investor just on Newsnight Scotland talking just about the most uneducated pile of economic ****e I have ever heard. Apparently inflation is coming down due to lower oil prices (Which it may be, but then what about everything else and the fact our plunging currency has made everything we import more expensive almost overnight)

 

He then goes on to say this will 'relax' fiscal policy and we can expect interest rates to fall (Which they may do but it will only further the pounds weakening - and lowering interest rates in situations like this has been shown to be impotent at the best of times).

 

What is the outcome of all this from Mr Investment chumpster expert ? Well don't worry guys this is the 'tail end' of the Crunch and due to lower interest rates growth is just around the corner !!!

 

FFS this is pathetic. You get better economic discussion on a bleeding football forum than on Newsnight these days.

 

Worrying...

[davemclaren]

OMG.

 

I have seen a whole crowd of these jokers today. Some expert investor just on Newsnight Scotland talking just about the most uneducated pile of economic ****e I have ever heard. Apparently inflation is coming down due to lower oil prices (Which it may be, but then what about everything else and the fact our plunging currency has made everything we import more expensive almost overnight)

 

He then goes on to say this will 'relax' fiscal policy and we can expect interest rates to fall (Which they may do but it will only further the pounds weakening - and lowering interest rates in situations like this has been shown to be impotent at the best of times).

 

What is the outcome of all this from Mr Investment chumpster expert ? Well don't worry guys this is the 'tail end' of the Crunch and due to lower interest rates growth is just around the corner !!!

 

FFS this is pathetic. You get better economic discussion on a bleeding football forum than on Newsnight these days.

 

Worrying...

Every downturn stops somewhere and goes back up. I'm not convinced we are there yet though.

 

From looking at the TV tonight I should be investing in cardboard boxes...

[Super T]

I wouldn't say we get a better discussion as that would mean that more than 1 point of view would be accepted.

[coppercrutch]

Every downturn stops somewhere and goes back up. I'm not convinced we are there yet though.

 

From looking at the TV tonight I should be investing in cardboard boxes...

 

Aye but all I hear is 'expert' after expert sayin how this was all so predictable and it was caused by too much reckless lending etc...

 

Weren't shouting about this even 6 months ago. Bandwagon jumpers on !!

 

I wouldn't say we get a better discussion as that would mean that more than 1 point of view would be accepted.

 

I would say we have pretty good discussions on this site. Can get a little feisty sometimes though...

 

Tide has just turned that is all. A year ago us 'doom-mongers' were the ones talking ****e and in the minority. Now it is the opposite.

 

I don't like it. I might become a bull.

[davemclaren]

Aye but all I hear is 'expert' after expert sayin how this was all so predictable and it was caused by too much reckless lending etc...

 

Weren't shouting about this even 6 months ago. Bandwagon jumpers on !!

 

 

 

I would say we have pretty good discussions on this site. Can get a little feisty sometimes though...

 

Tide has just turned that is all. A year ago us 'doom-mongers' were the ones talking ****e and in the minority. Now it is the opposite.

 

I don't like it. I might become a bull.

 

All hail the great CC.

 

Anyway, I'm starting to regret buying those bloomin' bank shares at the beginning of the year when they looked cheap.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

I think the sobering thing people should look at is the impact in Edinburgh and its environs. The major private sector industry is financial services (banks and life assurers). With HBoS getting hammered yesterday and AIG threatening to lead a contagion into the insurance market, there may be trouble ahead in terms of jobs.

[david mcgee]

I think the sobering thing people should look at is the impact in Edinburgh and its environs. The major private sector industry is financial services (banks and life assurers). With HBoS getting hammered yesterday and AIG threatening to lead a contagion into the insurance market, there may be trouble ahead in terms of jobs.

 

We covered that in a thread about 4 months ago, " Edinburghs foundations creaking", or words to that effect.

[blairdin]

I think the sobering thing people should look at is the impact in Edinburgh and its environs. The major private sector industry is financial services (banks and life assurers). With HBoS getting hammered yesterday and AIG threatening to lead a contagion into the insurance market, there may be trouble ahead in terms of jobs.

 

I think the Edinburgh life assurers will be fine, with the possible exception of Standard Life - I think they could be in for a tough time. Ultimately, it is the policyholders with investment type products such as endowments or pensions that will suffer before the companies to maintain reserves. Scot Widows and Scot Eq are owned by Lloyds and Aegon respectively, who as far as I am aware aren't as exposed to this crunch as others. I also expect Royal London (Bright Grey) to be fine, although it is worth remembering that there are other mergers afoot involving them, Pearl and Resolution not necessarily related to the crunch that could change things regarding their presence in Edinburgh.

 

HBOS and RBS. I don't know, I just can't see them not having to cut their cloth drastically to get through this. That will cost jobs.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

I think the Edinburgh life assurers will be fine, with the possible exception of Standard Life - I think they could be in for a tough time. Ultimately, it is the policyholders with investment type products such as endowments or pensions that will suffer before the companies to maintain reserves. Scot Widows and Scot Eq are owned by Lloyds and Aegon respectively, who as far as I am aware aren't as exposed to this crunch as others. I also expect Royal London (Bright Grey) to be fine, although it is worth remembering that there are other mergers afoot involving them, Pearl and Resolution not necessarily related to the crunch that could change things regarding their presence in Edinburgh.

 

HBOS and RBS. I don't know, I just can't see them not having to cut their cloth drastically to get through this. That will cost jobs.

 

I actually think AEGON is in the worst position, and I worked there until January. It isn't because of the UK arm but because 2/3rds of AEGON's revenue is earned in the US. AEGON's share price was down around 12% yesterday when I looked.

[Walter Payton]

I think the Edinburgh life assurers will be fine, with the possible exception of Standard Life - I think they could be in for a tough time. Ultimately, it is the policyholders with investment type products such as endowments or pensions that will suffer before the companies to maintain reserves. Scot Widows and Scot Eq are owned by Lloyds and Aegon respectively, who as far as I am aware aren't as exposed to this crunch as others. I also expect Royal London (Bright Grey) to be fine, although it is worth remembering that there are other mergers afoot involving them, Pearl and Resolution not necessarily related to the crunch that could change things regarding their presence in Edinburgh.

HBOS and RBS. I don't know, I just can't see them not having to cut their cloth drastically to get through this. That will cost jobs.

 

The scary thing is a lot of the people that are most at risk of losing their jobs have their head in the sand, either willfully or because they don't bother with what's happening to the bank beyond their small area - they will not take adequate steps to protect their income or find jobs elsewhere before they end up with a mortgage/rent they can't afford. The people I'm most concerned for is the temps- the banks (particularly in Edinburgh) employ a phenomenal number of people through temping agencies, and they're exactly the sort of people that the banks can make redundant tomorrow quietly whilst still putting a brave face on for the media and insisting no bank employees will lose their jobs.

 

I actually work for HBoS, but in an area where fortunately demand will exist for our services no matter what sort of recession the country enters and if HBoS goes down the pan, we're fortunate enough to be in a profitable area that any number of other banks would want to take over. Even in our area though the temps aren't safe- If they paid enough attention they'd realise by now it's going to happen (and I'd think that unfortunately most of them will be losing their jobs around Christmas) but the bank aren't going to pay redundancy packages for permanent staff when they can just retrain them in a job a temp is currently doing.

[Charlie-Brown]

Fifty percent of financial services is a side-bet on the real physical economy yet their influence and effect on it is disproportionate seeing as they control all the 'money' .... real physical assets actually in your possession (ie not in some government or bank vault like gold) are the only things with any real intrinsic value.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

What gets me is people shouting that this is the ultimate failure of free-market economics, which is rubbish. What the 'failure' was was letting the money supply get out of control by letting the banks create this rubbish in the first place.

 

It also now shows the stupidity of saving a two-bit outfit like Northern Wreck on the grounds of political expediency. There was no systemic risk with Northern Wreck.

[coppercrutch]

Edinburgh has a reliance on the Financial Services industry.

Edinburgh has a reliance on the tourism industry.

In recent years Edinburgh has also had a reliance on the property industry - along with every other partr of the UK.

 

They are all very quickly going down the swanny.

 

House prices in this City are the least of our worries. The will fall 30%+ easy. Probably more like 50% plus.

 

Jobs will be lost all over the shop. Not just in the industries directly affected but by all the indirect links too. Think of all the poncy 'nail boutiques', George Street Bars, coffe shops, cleaners, car showrooms etc…

 

These all rely on people in jobs (Many in Finance) being confident enough in their work that they can go out and spend money on stuff they really don't need. That is very quickly coming to an end.

 

I have seen a few posts re. temps etc.. And I do agree with that to a degree. Companies will go down the easy route of not replacing permament staff when they retire, not renewing temps contracts etc..

 

However I think many people in permanent positions will lose their jobs too. All across the board. That is fairly obvious. 5000 went yesterday in one fell swoop. I reckon behind the scenes all your major financial companies in Scotland are planning redundancies. Of course they are not going to be telling people about this until the very last minute.

 

I gave simple advice over a year ago.

 

Don't have debt.

Put your savings somewhere very safe.

Don’t buy things you won't need.

 

If you have followed this advice you should be fine.

 

If not you may be in big trouble.

 

In the end though we are all being ****ed over by the big boys and we will all lose out.

 

Nice eh.

[Csaba's Broon Shoes]

Edinburgh has a reliance on the Financial Services industry.

Edinburgh has a reliance on the tourism industry.

In recent years Edinburgh has also had a reliance on the property industry - along with every other partr of the UK.

 

They are all very quickly going down the swanny.

 

House prices in this City are the least of our worries. The will fall 30%+ easy. Probably more like 50% plus.

 

Jobs will be lost all over the shop. Not just in the industries directly affected but by all the indirect links too. Think of all the poncy 'nail boutiques', George Street Bars, coffe shops, cleaners, car showrooms etc?

 

These all rely on people in jobs (Many in Finance) being confident enough in their work that they can go out and spend money on stuff they really don't need. That is very quickly coming to an end.

 

I have seen a few posts re. temps etc.. And I do agree with that to a degree. Companies will go down the easy route of not replacing permament staff when they retire, not renewing temps contracts etc..

 

However I think many people in permanent positions will lose their jobs too. All across the board. That is fairly obvious. 5000 went yesterday in one fell swoop. I reckon behind the scenes all your major financial companies in Scotland are planning redundancies. Of course they are not going to be telling people about this until the very last minute.

 

I gave simple advice over a year ago.

 

Don't have debt.

Put your savings somewhere very safe.

Don?t buy things you won't need.

 

If you have followed this advice you should be fine.

 

If not you may be in big trouble.

 

In the end though we are all being ****ed over by the big boys and we will all lose out.

 

Nice eh.

 

Whats new , it's always been rip off Britain

 

We come into the world with nothing

 

and leave with nothing

 

Don't have Debt you say ? Get real I say

 

Good advice though and i like your posts but in reality we are all working class

[Maximus]

 

I gave simple advice over a year ago.

 

Don't have debt.

Put your savings somewhere very safe.

Don?t buy things you won't need.

 

If you have followed this advice you should be fine.

 

If not you may be in big trouble.

 

In the end though we are all being ****ed over by the big boys and we will all lose out.

 

Nice eh.

You forgot - 'Don't reproduce'

 

Seriously though, if you are with a bank it would be worth considering a move to a credit union. They ain't non profit but they are run FOR THE CUSTOMERS (account holders) not for the pleasure of sub-human money grabbers, what ever is made is simply used to keep things ticking.

 

Feck the bankers.

 

Say no to the money changers

[blairdin]

I actually think AEGON is in the worst position, and I worked there until January. It isn't because of the UK arm but because 2/3rds of AEGON's revenue is earned in the US. AEGON's share price was down around 12% yesterday when I looked.

 

Scary - I didn't realise that Geoff. I'm weighing up a very attracttive job offer from Aegon (Scottish Eq/Guardian) just now. Suffice to say, they are telling me they are geared up to handle the current situation.

[I P Knightley]

Whats new , it's always been rip off Britain

 

We come into the world with nothing

 

and leave with nothing

 

Don't have Debt you say ? Get real I say

 

Good advice though and i like your posts but in reality we are all working class

 

Good Heavens, no, AJ! I thought we were all landed gentry on here and that the poor people followed the Old Firm and that the class below them followed the Hibernians.

 

In this squeeze, having a little debt is not a bad thing as such. It's having debt coupled with an job that's at risk - and CC's pointed out (in his own Private Fraser way;)) that it's not just the frontline financial services jobs that are at risk.

 

I'll be getting it in the ear from Lady Ticklikov as, having amassed enough to tuck away into savings, I've practised as I preached and put dods of money into a well-diversified low-risk portfolio with equity/debt/property. It's for the medium to long term but I'm sure if we received a statement this month, Lady T would be climbing the walls looking at the balances.

 

The ones who are going to be hit worst are those with little or no debt (as advised by CC!) who've stashed their money into funds and pensions and are on the verge of settling down to enjoy a long and prosperous retirement.

 

I'm not downplaying the scale of what's going on but it does get exaggerated to the point of hysteria by the ill-informed among our popular media. And my wife.

[coppercrutch]

Whats new , it's always been rip off Britain

 

We come into the world with nothing

 

and leave with nothing

 

Don't have Debt you say ? Get real I say

 

Good advice though and i like your posts but in reality we are all working class

 

Debt is not neccessary. It can be very useful and I don't have anything against reasonable debt in general. However you can live your life without debt. It gives you complete freedom. I read a great quote recently "Debt is slavery for the free". So true IMO.

 

Totally agree with what you say about arriving and leaving with nothing. Money is evil !! It warps people's minds.

 

Good Heavens, no, AJ! I thought we were all landed gentry on here and that the poor people followed the Old Firm and that the class below them followed the Hibernians.

 

In this squeeze, having a little debt is not a bad thing as such. It's having debt coupled with an job that's at risk - and CC's pointed out (in his own Private Fraser way;)) that it's not just the frontline financial services jobs that are at risk.

 

I'll be getting it in the ear from Lady Ticklikov as, having amassed enough to tuck away into savings, I've practised as I preached and put dods of money into a well-diversified low-risk portfolio with equity/debt/property. It's for the medium to long term but I'm sure if we received a statement this month, Lady T would be climbing the walls looking at the balances.

 

The ones who are going to be hit worst are those with little or no debt (as advised by CC!) who've stashed their money into funds and pensions and are on the verge of settling down to enjoy a long and prosperous retirement.

 

I'm not downplaying the scale of what's going on but it does get exaggerated to the point of hysteria by the ill-informed among our popular media. And my wife.

 

I totally agree about those that have their savings stashed in pensions etc.. However it all depends on what time you decide to cash these in. You clearly want to choose a good time unlike now !!

 

However I have to disagree with your ideas about those with no debt. I only have to worry about my savings being eroded by inflation or lost !! I will not be in the negative. I do not owe anyone anything. I can go where I choose when I choose and not really worry about it. The worst that can happen is I lose my savings and I start from scratch. I would rather that didn't happen but I can handle it !

 

Having no debt in this particular time period is pretty much the best thing you can do. I lose my work ? Pfff. No big deal. I will go and work at Tescos if required !! Or just head off to the Alps for a season making beds and cooking people breakfast.

 

Same can't be said for someone with a massive mortgage and 2 car loans.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Scary - I didn't realise that Geoff. I'm weighing up a very attracttive job offer from Aegon (Scottish Eq/Guardian) just now. Suffice to say, they are telling me they are geared up to handle the current situation.

 

I wouldn't necessarily turn it down though. The UK arm of the 3 main parts of AEGON (the US and the Netherlands) is in the best shape and is indeed one of the best life assurers in the UK. The question mark facing AEGON's share price (which fell 13% yesterday - no idea what's happening today) is over the US earnings.

[Jammy T]

Fifty percent of financial services is a side-bet on the real physical economy yet their influence and effect on it is disproportionate seeing as they control all the 'money' .... real physical assets actually in your possession (ie not in some government or bank vault like gold) are the only things with any real intrinsic value.

 

Aaah good. I knew we'd eventually be able to agree on something

 

I'm heavily invested in ETF tracker funds for gold and silver at the moment.

 

You want to know about a scam? Here's one.

 

3 banks have caused the recent dip in spot prices of gold and 2 banks have caused the recent dip in silver spot prices by shorting (and I mean shorting the life out of) paper trades.

 

In this recent assault they have earned Billions of dollars for themselves and they have helped buy the US FED some valuable uplift in the dollar value - it would be fairly easy to suggest that this was a joint and planned move, but you dont like conspiracies NMH so I wont go into that too much

 

In the real world gold and silver physical sales are selling at a good premium and with some stockists are running out - so there isnt enough supply to meet demand

 

Now what are the basic gravitational rules of supply and demand. Yes, prices go up. Not with these big hitters involved though.

 

One of the biggest frauds of our time the recent gold and silver price drop - but there is too much else in the headlines for it to get air time.

 

However, the shorts in gold are starting to be unwound, and silver will follow. At some point the opposite reaction to this false suppression should have me smiling a lot more than I am at present...

[Therapist]

I actually think AEGON is in the worst position, and I worked there until January. It isn't because of the UK arm but because 2/3rds of AEGON's revenue is earned in the US. AEGON's share price was down around 12% yesterday when I looked.

 

That's nonsense.

 

It isn't about revenue or earnings. It's about whether they are holding any dud loans or, even worse, horrible untradeable mortgage-backed securities (and similar) that will totally burst their balance sheet.

 

Many financial institutions' earnings are down. What's killing the ones that fold are the significant write downs of "assets".

[Peebo]

Debt is not neccessary. It can be very useful and I don't have anything against reasonable debt in general. However you can live your life without debt. It gives you complete freedom. I read a great quote recently "Debt is slavery for the free". So true IMO.

 

Totally agree with what you say about arriving and leaving with nothing. Money is evil !! It warps people's minds.

 

If it was not for "debt", we would all still be living in caves. Of course, for some people, that may be the only realistic option shortly...

[coppercrutch]

If it was not for "debt", we would all still be living in caves. Of course, for some people, that may be the only realistic option shortly...

 

Slight exaggeration there

 

I agree that 'debt' has helped with a lot of things in recent history. It has been used as a tool to grow and expand businesses/exploration etc..

 

However I do not think it is necessary for the vast majority of people.

 

It is simply a trap to sucker people into doing what they are told. Remember "Debt is slavery of the free".

 

Just think of how many people out there work in jobs that they hate. Don't go travelling or do the things that they have always wanted. And why ?

 

There is one very common reason* behind many of these decisions. It is debt.

 

I have read a few people talking about 'debt revulsion' and why they expect this to occur in the near future. The theory is that so many people and businesses will be so ****ed over by the current situation - that the idea of debt will once more become very unpleasant. I can see that happening.

 

 

* Not for everyone in this situation but for a huge number.

[Peebo]

Slight exaggeration there

 

I agree that 'debt' has helped with a lot of things in recent history. It has been used as a tool to grow and expand businesses/exploration etc..

 

However I do not think it is necessary for the vast majority of people.

 

It is simply a trap to sucker people into doing what they are told. Remember "Debt is slavery of the free".

 

Just think of how many people out there work in jobs that they hate. Don't go travelling or do the things that they have always wanted. And why ?

 

There is one very common reason* behind many of these decisions. It is debt.

 

I have read a few people talking about 'debt revulsion' and why they expect this to occur in the near future. The theory is that so many people and businesses will be so ****ed over by the current situation - that the idea of debt will once more become very unpleasant. I can see that happening.

 

 

* Not for everyone in this situation but for a huge number.

 

Yeah, no doubt that a lot of people have got themselves into a situation whereby their personal debts basically rule their lives. Caveat emptor.

 

However, I don't really see what I said as an exaggeration. The development of human society, as we know it now, has been built around economies which all essentially work "on the tick". Generally, it works pretty well - a company borrows money to invest in something which produces a return greater than the cost of their loan...a student borrows money to fund themselves through a degree which ultimately increases their long-term earning power...etc. etc..

 

There is nothing wrong with debt. The issue here, as you well know, is crap debt; people have too cavalier in who they lend money too. In an ideal world, those who do this should suffer - these banks (etc.) whose business model is basically too risky should be left to go bust. However, the problem, as you also well know, is that there are too many stakeholders, and grim consequences, for the governments to let this happen in many cases.

[coppercrutch]

Yeah, no doubt that a lot of people have got themselves into a situation whereby their personal debts basically rule their lives. Caveat emptor.

 

However, I don't really see what I said as an exaggeration. The development of human society, as we know it now, has been built around economies which all essentially work "on the tick". Generally, it works pretty well - a company borrows money to invest in something which produces a return greater than the cost of their loan...a student borrows money to fund themselves through a degree which ultimately increases their long-term earning power...etc. etc..

 

There is nothing wrong with debt. The issue here, as you well know, is crap debt; people have too cavalier in who they lend money too. In an ideal world, those who do this should suffer - these banks (etc.) whose business model is basically too risky should be left to go bust. However, the problem, as you also well know, is that there are too many stakeholders, and grim consequences, for the governments to let this happen in many cases.

 

I totally agree with the theory of the above. However people are greedy. You can put all the rules you want in place but the next generation will simply forget how bad it was and inflate the next bubble.

 

Lenders will once more get lax with lending. Citing 'But it is different this time'. Individuals will get past the revulsion of debt (As there was many decades ago I believe ?) and become greedy and credit hungry once more.

 

You can't trust lenders to lend.

You can't trust borrowers to borrow.

 

So what do you do !!

 

As for the near future IMO there is going to be a massive demand from the public for serious regulations for the banking industry. The anger is growing already. This will just restrict lending even more than it is already.

 

This whole mess is way, way above the housing market in this City. However I think it will impact it massively. Even more than I previously thought. My 30%+ real falls was way to conservative IMO. I reckon nominal falls of 50% could be in the making. Across the board.

 

This has already happened in the Granton new builds. Only a matter of time before the 'good houses' follow on IMO.

[david mcgee]

I totally agree with the theory of the above. However people are greedy. You can put all the rules you want in place but the next generation will simply forget how bad it was and inflate the next bubble.

 

Lenders will once more get lax with lending. Citing 'But it is different this time'. Individuals will get past the revulsion of debt (As there was many decades ago I believe ?) and become greedy and credit hungry once more.

 

You can't trust lenders to lend.

You can't trust borrowers to borrow.

 

So what do you do !!

 

As for the near future IMO there is going to be a massive demand from the public for serious regulations for the banking industry. The anger is growing already. This will just restrict lending even more than it is already.

 

This whole mess is way, way above the housing market in this City. However I think it will impact it massively. Even more than I previously thought. My 30%+ real falls was way to conservative IMO. I reckon nominal falls of 50% could be in the making. Across the board.

 

This has already happened in the Granton new builds. Only a matter of time before the 'good houses' follow on IMO.

 

I totally agree with you on the regulation front, banks will be regulated like never before.

This is a good thing because they have proved they are not capable of self regulation.

All these people who are thinking of investing in banking shares when they think the worst is over would do well to consider all this extra regulation because banks will not be able to make the sort of obscene profits we are used to seeing. ( the shares may not be as cheap as they appear on previous earning ratios)

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

That's nonsense.

 

It isn't about revenue or earnings. It's about whether they are holding any dud loans or, even worse, horrible untradeable mortgage-backed securities (and similar) that will totally burst their balance sheet.

 

Many financial institutions' earnings are down. What's killing the ones that fold are the significant write downs of "assets".

 

Indeed.

 

And that's the reason I'm asking out loud about AEGON's portfolio in the States.

 

EDIT: I note that AEGON stated that they had a $375m fixed income exposure to Lehman Bros but that they had no equity in the firm.

[blairdin]

I wouldn't necessarily turn it down though. The UK arm of the 3 main parts of AEGON (the US and the Netherlands) is in the best shape and is indeed one of the best life assurers in the UK. The question mark facing AEGON's share price (which fell 13% yesterday - no idea what's happening today) is over the US earnings.

 

That's nonsense.

 

It isn't about revenue or earnings. It's about whether they are holding any dud loans or, even worse, horrible untradeable mortgage-backed securities (and similar) that will totally burst their balance sheet.

 

Many financial institutions' earnings are down. What's killing the ones that fold are the significant write downs of "assets".

 

 

Two helpful posts for me personally - thanks gents.

[portobellojambo1]

I think the Edinburgh life assurers will be fine, with the possible exception of Standard Life - I think they could be in for a tough time. Ultimately, it is the policyholders with investment type products such as endowments or pensions that will suffer before the companies to maintain reserves. Scot Widows and Scot Eq are owned by Lloyds and Aegon respectively, who as far as I am aware aren't as exposed to this crunch as others. I also expect Royal London (Bright Grey) to be fine, although it is worth remembering that there are other mergers afoot involving them, Pearl and Resolution not necessarily related to the crunch that could change things regarding their presence in Edinburgh.

 

HBOS and RBS. I don't know, I just can't see them not having to cut their cloth drastically to get through this. That will cost jobs.

 

AEGON have around ?210 million tied up in Lehman brothers I believe in CDS. I believe the life insurance company most at risk is possibly AXA Sun Life, or the AXA Group in general.

[Charlie-Brown]

Aaah good. I knew we'd eventually be able to agree on something

 

I'm heavily invested in ETF tracker funds for gold and silver at the moment.

 

You want to know about a scam? Here's one.

 

3 banks have caused the recent dip in spot prices of gold and 2 banks have caused the recent dip in silver spot prices by shorting (and I mean shorting the life out of) paper trades.

 

In this recent assault they have earned Billions of dollars for themselves and they have helped buy the US FED some valuable uplift in the dollar value - it would be fairly easy to suggest that this was a joint and planned move, but you dont like conspiracies NMH so I wont go into that too much

 

In the real world gold and silver physical sales are selling at a good premium and with some stockists are running out - so there isnt enough supply to meet demand

 

Now what are the basic gravitational rules of supply and demand. Yes, prices go up. Not with these big hitters involved though.

 

One of the biggest frauds of our time the recent gold and silver price drop - but there is too much else in the headlines for it to get air time.

 

However, the shorts in gold are starting to be unwound, and silver will follow. At some point the opposite reaction to this false suppression should have me smiling a lot more than I am at present...

 

Iam perfectly happy to believe in conspiracies in precious metals markets - the Hunts of Texas famously tried to rig the entire market in silver until they pushed prices so high it threatened the banking system and the federal reserve intervened, trading was suspended & the market subsequently collapsed causing billions of losses for both Hunt brothers and countless other speculators........a brief history here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_Bunker_Hunt'

 

And then of course there was the numerous activities of British Imperialist Cecil Rhodes......