Football's Finished

[topcat]

P.S. If something like this did happen and the Old Firm were not winning everything every season it would be interesting to see just how many people actually did still 'support' them?

 

My guess is about a quater of those who currently claim to be 'died in the wool' supporters.

 

A look at the attendances for our away fixtures at Celtic in the years running up to the McCann takeover when Celtic were 3rd at best might be instructive

 

http://www.londonhearts.com/scores/tea/celtic.html

 

22 Sep 1990: 38,409

29 Dec 1990: 28,120

05 Oct 1991: 33,621

04 Jan 1992: 30,417

07 Oct 1992: 26,049

10 Mar 1993: 16,984

20 Nov 1993: 25,990

09 Apr 2004: 18,761

[buster18]

Well said

[murdo_b]

The SPL or Scottish football is a classic example of how money and 2 very wealthy clubs create a sterile competition.

I just don't see what enjoyment they get out of winning when its simply because they have the most money.The ironic thing is if Celtic and Rangers did not scoop up every half decent player that they could, and we had a real competitive league it would actually benifit them as well.

Don't know the answer but even the Americans in the most free market money is king country realise that in sport a competitive competition is vital.

[Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC]

Spot on man, I pretty much think the arrival of this new super ridiculously rich guy for City sort of adds leverage to the construction of a new European Super League, with domestic countries fighting it out with perhaps lesser "Spectacular" leagues...

 

I mean the Premiership would look a whole lot different without the top 4/5....

 

A super league might be a possibility.

 

Let all these 'super clubs' battle it out in Las Vegas or something and then drop prices, cut down the amount of football on TV and get the working class fans back to the games supporting their local teams.

[lastkingofscotland]

The current boom started with SKY of course, it will end with these guys.QUOTE]

 

They're already starting to pack as much cricket in as they can in the form of 20-20's and ODI's especially, as the timescales are more predictable than full test matches. The TV rights are a pittance compared to football, you can play it under floodlights and there's a handy break every 5mins or so for ad's. 20-20 could have a huge impact on the future of the EPL. Let's face it, a Texan is trying to market it to the Americans so it won't be too hard to sell it to the English.

 

As far as wage caps go, the "big clubs" would continue to hold a massive advantage to the point where a cap becomes meaningless. For example, you'd have to limit signing on fees as well or clubs would just increase these to make up the difference. If you limit those, then they buy you a house to stay in for the duration of the contract, or a new club car every 12, 6 or 3 months. There's a thousand and one ways the clubs with more money could continue to spend it on players if a salary cap were introduced.

[WagonWheel]

There is only so much supporters money to go around, whether it be indirect via tv subscription revunue or directly from tickets/merchandise.

 

Using England as an example, it would be a disaster for football in the next 20 years if the money from the 'big pot' eventually dries up for the Rochdales, Bristol Rovers, Darlingtons etc.

 

As previous posters have stated much more elloquently, the big boys will eventually look to get bigger returns (or a return) on their investments and what really hacks me off is the constant attempts of Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal et al to turn everyone on the planet into one of their fans. Like having about 70,000 fans every home game and merchandise revenue from 150,000-200,000 fans is not enough?

 

"Hmm, I'm getting word there appears to be a young lad in Brighton thinking of getting an Albion home kit - Action stations guys, get a poster of Ronaldo up in his street pronto!!"

[knoxyjambo]

Totally agree with a lot of what is being said on this thread.

 

I think I'll eventually stop going to the fitba and taking such an interest in it, that's a sad thing to say as a good portion of my life revolves around fitba.

 

I grew up with late 80's/early 90's fitba which is where a prob started going wrong, I still feel I saw the game as it should be though, it just doesn't feel the same now, the soul's slowly being ripped out the game.

 

In some ways the money in fitba has been a good thing but detrimental in many other ways. A big part of me just want's the erse to fall out the game so the money men *** off.

 

I cant get excited about half the Champs league, premiership etc these days, fans are being brought into a different world of fitba these days and with different values. So many kids these days dont seem to get the nature of supporting a team and sticking with them through thick and thin, it's like a different breed of football fan nowadays.

 

Others are being priced more and more out of the game, look at the prices in the SPL, they're a joke. Even for a father (or mother thesedays) it costs a fortune.

 

Sad state of affairs indeed.

[jambo_74]

The last truly level playing field in British football was the nineteen fifties. Just prior to the end of the wage cap, players still played at smaller clubs for less money but the incentive to move wasn't as great as it is now.

 

Players wages between clubs in the same division would have been more or less comparable and to up sticks for a few bob more just simply wasn't as feasible.

 

In the days prior to the end of the wage cap, a player would have to consider the implications of moving clubs on his family, the wages in the fifties where still better that the working man, but not by that much.

 

Uping sticks to a new club would require dealing with all the hassles that the average punter has to think about. Nowadays this consideration is taken out of the equation as a penthouse suite is laid on by the purchasing club to allow the immortal ones time to find the appropriate palace to reside in.

 

If a wage cap was reintroduced, players would once again find a home and a club to belong too. Its unfortunately to much to ask for in these hedonistic money orientated days.

[Guest S.U.S.S.]

I'm getting more and more ****ed off with football every season.

 

I'm sitting watching Setanta Sports News and they are covering the Keegan story ... a complete shambles almost up there with Burley leaving.

 

Who do these feckers think they are buying clubs and then taking the complete **** out of the fans? Because at the end of the day it is the fans that suffer ... no one else.

 

Time and time again these foreign millionaires/billionaires are coming in and causing turmoil left right and centre.

 

The Man City story was quite exciting yesterday but on reflection, it's terrible for the game that these guys can come in and basically buy success.

 

Unless wage caps/transfer caps and foreign player limitations are put in place football is really going to change over the next few years.

 

I can see myself following youth/amatuer football in years to come.

 

Footballs *****ed.

 

bye then

[Seymour M Hersh]

He'll be out the door as soon as they can reasonably do it. Paid in full and then some.

 

If your spending that kind of money you want Hiddink or someone in that kind of class to manage it for you.

 

Every chance OAG.

 

I just cant see him rushing to call the new owners on Monday pleading with them to outbid chelski for the services of Robinho can you?

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

Curbishley out now.

 

The traditional British-style manager is being hounded into extinction by foreign owners who want to micro-manage everything from ticket prices to tactics. Within five years most EPL clubs will be run like the big European clubs, with a President signing players, a Sporting Director dealing with contracts and a team coach simply training and coaching.

[Maroon Mayhem]

It's like the silver Audi in the picture which was purchased by the same family as Mr Man City. It's not like a silver Audi you or I would buy, it's silver.......solid silver. At the end of the day it's a play thing and with all play things they're cast aside at some point.

 

[spacerjoe]

These guys want the biggest names.

 

 

Um, are you sure about that?

 

Sven was a far, far bigger name than Hughes and he was binned to make way for Hughes.

 

In England, only Chelsea so far have shown a penchant for the more illustrious managerial names.

[spacerjoe]

A super league might be a possibility.

 

Let all these 'super clubs' battle it out in Las Vegas or something and then drop prices, cut down the amount of football on TV and get the working class fans back to the games supporting their local teams.

 

 

Just out of interest, would you watch this 'Super League' on tv?

 

Or would you continue to take the moral high-ground and only watch football matches at Tynecastle, or other live venues (now that the Premiership is no longer on tv making your dreams for the working class fan a reality).

[Craig R]

I'm getting more and more ****ed off with football every season.

 

I'm sitting watching Setanta Sports News and they are covering the Keegan story ... a complete shambles almost up there with Burley leaving.

 

Who do these feckers think they are buying clubs and then taking the complete **** out of the fans? Because at the end of the day it is the fans that suffer ... no one else.

 

Time and time again these foreign millionaires/billionaires are coming in and causing turmoil left right and centre.

 

The Man City story was quite exciting yesterday but on reflection, it's terrible for the game that these guys can come in and basically buy success.

 

Unless wage caps/transfer caps and foreign player limitations are put in place football is really going to change over the next few years.

 

I can see myself following youth/amatuer football in years to come.

 

Footballs *****ed.

 

 

How dare these foreigners come in and spend millions of pounds bringing the top talent from around the world to British clubs!? A disgrace indeed.

[coppercrutch]

In any market where finances are involved, a sure sign that a big bubble is inflating is when the world and his auntie all try and get involved spending and "investing" greater and greater amounts of money doing so

 

The bubble has a wee while to inflate, but rest assured something is going to happen within the next 5 years that will pop it.

 

These money men, will at some stage get together to try and ensure they get a return. Whatever they propose is the way forward will go through.

 

Football will never be the same again, and is unlikely to flourish as it has to date.

 

The current boom started with SKY of course, it will end with these guys.

 

Football will not be the game we grew up loving in 5 years, and it wont be the better for it, and it might be completely on its erse. I can almost guarantee you that.

 

Couldn't agree more. Football is one of the most obvious bubbles for the future. These things go in cycles and no doubt football will get back to it's 'rougher' days once more. Nothing wrong with that.

[srm12]

How dare these foreigners come in and spend millions of pounds bringing the top talent from around the world to British clubs!? A disgrace indeed.

 

 

Do you think this investment in Man City is anything more than Kinaro and others have said - a play thing and an ego massage. Why would these people be committed to pump in the ludicrous sums of money year on year that Man City need in order to compete? What association do they have with City? The whole thing just seems completely unsustainable. Sure they'll sell out the ground in the short term but what sort fans will they be attracting, ones that add nothing to the atmosphere and are there mostly due to the glamour and excitement of the new money.

 

All this new money in football (or most of it) is coming from folk who couldn't really care less about the fans and are on a giant ego trip. The fans in turn are becoming more fickle, as I said earlier in this thread some Arsenal fans are calling for the head of Wenger because he didn't pay over the odds to add to his squad just for the sake of it. That seems ridiculous to me and sums up where football is going - Wenger has consistently produced the goods for Arsenal and has probably made a profit along the way, as well as playing absolutely brilliant football!

 

Personally with all these investors coming in I just cant see what is going to hold the clubs together when things go wrong. Today AC has left West Ham, who on the face of it would seem to be in very serious trouble. There is a scary desperation about clubs at the moment (particularly in England), where just about every clubs fans seem to be unhappy with what they've purchased and I think its only a matter of time before we see another Leeds.

[badly drawn boy]

I used to go down to watch City once or twice a season in the 90s when they were drifting between the 1st, 2nd and even 3rd tiers of English football.

 

Back then their players ranged from average to crap, with the odd gem like Kinkladze.

 

Now it looks like they're going to mega-spend and become another Chelsea.

 

 

I don't know why but think I prefered them the way they were.

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

 

 

Synonomous with the that era was Maine Road off course , though not exactly a lucky ground for City ( ***** curse ) it was a fascinating place on match day

 

Sights and sounds of the lanes and passageways of Mosside around the stadium , the always manic Platt lane car park , the colourfull street traders , the familiar shops , blue moon and City chippys etc and the carnival atmosphere of drinking in the streets and many pubs in and around , Mary the Bell , Rosies room , the rivalry between the North and Kippax stands -the temp Gene Kelly

 

But the stadium like the team had been for a long time was crumbling and now there is a new shiny stadium along the road ( pheonomenal looking to be fair ) the street traders have been cleared and replaced by security and a massive megastore selling everything you can stick a badge on

 

And now City are becoming what the supporters said they always despised a big commercially driven mega business which will exploit wherever it can to sell jerseys etc , aka the stretford mob

 

That is the footbal world in which we live , grass roots and communities lost along the way ,

 

Paul dickov or Robinho -Maine road or City of Manchester , no comparison but i understand where Bill is coming from

[Fourcandles]

Pretty much agree with the OP.

 

As an aside though..........

 

Q:- The greatest football team ever assembled was assembled for ?0.00. What team was it?

 

A:- The 1970 Brazil team.

 

 

:)

 

A reminder of that side...........

[Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC]

Um, are you sure about that?

 

Sven was a far, far bigger name than Hughes and he was binned to make way for Hughes.

 

In England, only Chelsea so far have shown a penchant for the more illustrious managerial names.

 

Mark Hughes was in charge when these guys took over.

 

Just out of interest, would you watch this 'Super League' on tv?

 

Or would you continue to take the moral high-ground and only watch football matches at Tynecastle, or other live venues (now that the Premiership is no longer on tv making your dreams for the working class fan a reality).

 

I wouldn't watch it, no.

[badly drawn boy]

Just out of interest, would you watch this 'Super League' on tv?

 

Or would you continue to take the moral high-ground and only watch football matches at Tynecastle, or other live venues (now that the Premiership is no longer on tv making your dreams for the working class fan a reality).

 

Though some denying it here , a super league with er super teams would be watched by the majority of people on the box

[spacerjoe]

I wouldn't watch it, no.

 

Sure.

 

In the meantime, if you ever need to know what's going on in the Champions League, just give me a shout. Obviously I know you won't though, but, you know, just in case.

[jambo_74]

Um, are you sure about that?

 

Sven was a far, far bigger name than Hughes and he was binned to make way for Hughes.

 

In England, only Chelsea so far have shown a penchant for the more illustrious managerial names.

 

Absolutely agree with the first point you make, Sven is a far more world renowned manager than Mark Hughes.

 

On the second point though, Chelsea certainly have shown a penchant for illustrious managerial names, they aren't alone on that front though.

 

Arsenal - Wenger 1996 -

Liverpool - Houllier 1998 - 2004, Benitez 2004 -

Spurs - Jaques Santini 2003 - 2004,

Martin Jol 2004 - 2007, Juande Ramos 2007

 

Chelsea over the same period as Arsene Wenger has been in charge of Arsenal have gone through seven different managers.

 

Of those seven it could be argued three have been illustrious in terms of managerial success (Claudio Ranieri, Jos? Mourinho, Luiz Felipe Scolari).

 

Two were household names from a footballing perspective having won most of the top prizes on offer (Ruud Gullit, Gianluca Vialli), however that in itself is not enough to class them as world class managerial appointments.

 

One was an unknown quantity to most punters (Avrum Grant) and the last one the less said the better (Graham Rix).

 

Of the teams mentioned above, all of the Managers came from highly successful spells at either international or club level. However, I think it could be safe to say that Luiz Felipe Scolari is the most decorated and therefore perhaps the most illustrious manager from those that I have mentioned.

 

All in all I've went on a bit of a rant, but I was basically stating with I think a sensible amount of factual evidence that Chelsea are not alone in chasing the big name coaches.

 

Ironically the longest serving member of this group is Arsene Wenger who came with a good pedigree, but perhaps not a household name.

[spacerjoe]

On the second point though, Chelsea certainly have shown a penchant for illustrious managerial names, they aren't alone on that front though.

 

Arsenal - Wenger 1996 -

Liverpool - Houllier 1998 - 2004, Benitez 2004 -

Spurs - Jaques Santini 2003 - 2004,

Martin Jol 2004 - 2007, Juande Ramos 2007

 

Completely agree, and it proves how big names don't necessarily bring success. However, the point was being aimed towards those clubs that are privately owned by 'flamboyant' billionaires.

 

Benetiz is a big name, for sure but was already there for a couple of seasons.

 

Look at Pompey, West Ham and Fulham. All three have billionaire owners, but all employed British management to varying levels of success.

 

Of course, none of these guys are at the level of Man City or Chelsea.

 

It will be interesting to see what happens to Dowie though, should QPR be promoted...

[topcat]

Someday, one of those big clubs with a foreign owner is going to go belly up when owner either dies, gets imprisoned or just gets fed up, and then like a pack of cards, they will all come tumbling down.

 

What is your thinking here?

 

Why should the failure of one of these projects become contagious and spread to the rest?

 

Surely if one fails it makes the field less competitive for those that remain giving them better returns on their spending and hence makes them more, rather than less, likely to continue.

[topcat]

Ironically the longest serving member of this group is Arsene Wenger who came with a good pedigree, but perhaps not a household name.

 

By that logic you really should have Alex Ferguson on your list as well his pedigree when he left Aberdeen was at least as impressive as Wenger's when he left Grampus 8 a decade later.

[John Findlay]

I would say competitive football across the board at club level in Europe is finished. With the odd exception it is mainly the same club(s) winning the league in England, France, Germany, Holland, Italy, Portugal and Spain. Not forgetting good old Scotland.

 

The last 16 of this seasons Champions League will not vary differently from last seasons.

 

The English FA Cup was a bit different last season in that it was Cardiff City against Portsmouth in the final. The tragedy was. there were many south of the border complaining that none of the big four where in the final and the competition was de-valued because of it. Eh? The English FA de-valued their flagship competition when they allowed Man Utd to opt out to take part in Sepp Blatter's ill fated World Club championship(Where's that competition now?) in the mistaken belief it would help their ill fated bid to host the 2006 World Cup.

 

The EPL and the Champions League will finally implode as the money will eventually dry up. Whether football will survive this remains to be seen but I have my doubts.

 

 

 

John

[jambo_74]

By that logic you really should have Alex Ferguson on your list as well his pedigree when he left Aberdeen was at least as impressive as Wenger's when he left Grampus 8 a decade later.

 

I was basing my point around non British managers, however you are right that Fergusson was arguably more impressive at the end of his Aberdeen reign than Wenger.

[jambo_74]

Completely agree, and it proves how big names don't necessarily bring success. However, the point was being aimed towards those clubs that are privately owned by 'flamboyant' billionaires.

 

Benetiz is a big name, for sure but was already there for a couple of seasons.

 

Look at Pompey, West Ham and Fulham. All three have billionaire owners, but all employed British management to varying levels of success.

 

Of course, none of these guys are at the level of Man City or Chelsea.

 

It will be interesting to see what happens to Dowie though, should QPR be promoted...

 

It's strange that you should mention those three teams as I actually left them out on purpose. Both Portsmouth and Fulham have had foreign coaches in recent years, Tiganna at Fulham and Perrin (sp) at Portsmouth, I can't be bothered looking it up but I think they may also have had someone from the old Eastern block, could be wrong. Their credentials however were far less impressive than the more illustrious names mentioned in an earlier post.

 

West Ham though have never had a coach from outside of the British Isles and I thought that was quite interesting or perhaps mildly xenophobic:)

[spacerjoe]

It's strange that you should mention those three teams as I actually left them out on purpose. Both Portsmouth and Fulham have had foreign coaches in recent years, Tiganna at Fulham and Perrin (sp) at Portsmouth, I can't be bothered looking it up but I think they may also have had someone from the old Eastern block, could be wrong. Their credentials however were far less impressive than the more illustrious names mentioned in an earlier post.

 

West Ham though have never had a coach from outside of the British Isles and I thought that was quite interesting or perhaps mildly xenophobic:)

 

Perrin was before the recent takeover, I believe? Although, you're right in the respect that Mandaric looked abroad. But yes, Al Fayed did employ Tigana after Keegan left. Still though, that's 1 foreigner out of 6 managers in Al Fayed's time. Not bad.

 

Didn't know that about West Ham - that is interesting. Wonder if this is a thing that the fans have picked up on?

[jambo_74]

Perrin was before the recent takeover, I believe? Although, you're right in the respect that Mandaric looked abroad. But yes, Al Fayed did employ Tigana after Keegan left. Still though, that's 1 foreigner out of 6 managers in Al Fayed's time. Not bad.

 

Didn't know that about West Ham - that is interesting. Wonder if this is a thing that the fans have picked up on?

 

Don't know if the fans have picked up on this but West Ham have always had a very proud to be British support, I was honestly just joking with the xenophobic comment.

 

Don't believe they would have a problem with a foreign coach, just think they have always generally looked to the best of what is available with British coaching experience.

 

I think when you are scrapping it out at the lower end of the league and perhaps working with a few rough diamonds, Lee Bowyer, Keiron Dyer, Craig Bellamy (delete diamonds as applicable) it probably requires an aptitude for getting stuck in about it.

 

I could be wrong, but I don't recall to many high profile foreign coaches appreciating the lower echelons of the premier league, moreover if they hang around the bottom for to long they are generally replaced by an in the know British style manager.

 

Maybe West Ham figured they would always be up and down so played it safe by never deviating from the known path.

 

As for Fulham, fair play, and in respect of Tiggana, he was pretty poor anyway.

[Nookie Bear]

Although a slighty differing angle - the big problem is the modern day owner / foreign footballer has no real appreciation of a British football club's history or tradition. Hearts epitomise this and the best example was Rix's 4-1 defeat of Hibs. A team of Jambos would of gone for ten that day to finally put the 7-0 game to bed - we certainly had the team to do it. The merecenaries are good to watch but that bond between player and fans is now gone. Even the Scot's players don't care about the fans any more. For instance we all loved Pressley but he threw it all back at us and more.

 

Off topic but i'll disagree with this. We have had numerous chances to avenge the 7-0 since the 1980's and not taken it, usually because it's difficult to sustain that level of energy for 90 minutes (as you're quoting the Rix 4-1 game, i'll say we were in control of that game for less than an hour), so to blame foreign owners and coaches does not make sense.

 

Oh, and it was a team of Jambos that allowed to lose 7-0 in the first place!!

[Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC]

Another manager left due to owners with ego issues. Oh dear.