monkfish1979 Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 From our woeful mismanagment? It seems to me that alot of the players from Kaunas have upped their game in the first few matches this season - doubtless due to having had a decent pre-season and some good training. Zaliukas was, by all accounts, a strong contender for MOTM yesterday, and Miko's seemed much better - even Audrey looks more up for it. Hat kickers will always complain that they've "arrived from a diddy team in a backwater league", but in no way does that preclude them from having any talent, IMO. It seems to me that the pyramid players - Lithuanians in particular - have taken the brunt of the abuse levelled at the team when, as fairly pointed out in another thread, they haven't put in performances of significantly lower quality than our home grown players. Should we really be so quick to judge them based on the club they've come to us from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coco Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 I think that the majority of fans make their judgements on players based on what they do on the pitch. And for the most part the performances of Kaunas loanees have been poor relative to the other options available. I think that there have been successes - Miko now deserves a transfer and a full contract with Hearts. Velicka was a success in terms of transfer fee for UBIG/Kaunas. And Chesney/Zaliukas have had decent games. But otherwise they have mostly held the team back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loveofthegame Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 At times they've rightfully been scapegoats, at times they have taken undeserved flak. There biggest problem is that the fans have (rightly or wrongly) seen them as a way of venting anger at the clubs owner. Some of the players genuinely were the worst players i've ever seen at Hearts. Others clearly have ability and yes have needed decent management and coaching (same as many of the non-Lith players at the club). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coco Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 At times they've rightfully been scapegoats, at times they have taken undeserved flak. There biggest problem is that the fans have (rightly or wrongly) seen them as a way of venting anger at the clubs owner. Some of the players genuinely were the worst players i've ever seen at Hearts. Others clearly have ability and yes have needed decent management and coaching (same as many of the non-Lith players at the club). Scapegoat is someone who takes undeserved flak. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scapegoat Apologies if that is what you meant by your comment in bold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djf Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 I think every player at Hearts has suffered from mismanagement over the past two seasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkfish1979 Posted August 31, 2008 Author Share Posted August 31, 2008 I think every player at Hearts has suffered from mismanagement over the past two seasons. Very true, but very few of the other players have had the same level of grief that the Lithuanians have taken. IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JamboRobbo Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 I think the Kaunus players coming in have suffered from being tarred with the same brush as the poor quality of signings we've had from there (which have been the vast majority). But I think that is perfectly natural, as the general quality from Kaunus has been poor. But at the same time, I think the ones who have performed on the park, have been given praise where due. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_jambo Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 Miko ------------ juanjo Chesney -------- Valois Velicka --------- De vries Zali ------------ Mckenna Ksanavicius ------ Wyness Kancelskis ------ Neilson Barasa --------- A Mccann Kilmek --------- eskilsson?? Kello ----------- R Mckenzie? Kyzis (forgot his name) --- Macfarlane Kurskis ------- Nelson Like it or not, the Kaunas players are of the same standard that we have seen come in and out of Tynecastle. Some better than what we have had in the past. Some worse. (Ive put in bold, which players i think are better). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JamboRobbo Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 Miko ------------ juanjo Chesney -------- Valois Velicka --------- De vries Zali ------------ Mckenna Ksanavicius ------ Wyness Kancelskis ------ Neilson Barasa --------- A Mccann Kilmek --------- eskilsson?? Kello ----------- R Mckenzie? Like it or not, the Kaunas players are of the same standard that we have seen come in and out of Tynecastle. And like it or not, all those players like Neilson and Wyness get loads of stick to, cause lots of people didn't rate them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboAl Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 From our woeful mismanagment? It seems to me that alot of the players from Kaunas have upped their game in the first few matches this season - doubtless due to having had a decent pre-season and some good training. Zaliukas was, by all accounts, a strong contender for MOTM yesterday, and Miko's seemed much better - even Audrey looks more up for it. Hat kickers will always complain that they've "arrived from a diddy team in a backwater league", but in no way does that preclude them from having any talent, IMO. It seems to me that the pyramid players - Lithuanians in particular - have taken the brunt of the abuse levelled at the team when, as fairly pointed out in another thread, they haven't put in performances of significantly lower quality than our home grown players. Should we really be so quick to judge them based on the club they've come to us from? The real problem is not that they are Lithuanians or that they are bad, it is that they came across in their droves and because of that it was more difficult to integrate them into the Scottish style plus it led to cliques. I hope tomorrow doesn't prove me wrong but I think that what Csaba is doing differently, is bringing in players one by one and integrating them into his, and Hearts way, before they even get a game. If a manager introduces several players into a team at one time, he will almost certainly have to change his plans/systems etc and that takes time. At Tynie, our supporters are not good at giving anyone time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambos are go! Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 Lazlo made it clear at the shareholders meetings that it is the coaching staffs responsibility to manage and alleviate the stresses and needs of a multi-national squad. Its hard to avoid the conclusion that this was not happening in recent seasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loveofthegame Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 Scapegoat is someone who takes undeserved flak. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scapegoat Apologies if that is what you meant by your comment in bold. Sorry mate, used word in wrong context. Too late to edit my post but read 1st sentence as: ''At times they've rightfully been in for some flak, at times they've taken undeserved flak'' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coco Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 Amazed at the poll results so far. Of 22 replies, 20 have said that the 'Liths have been scapegoats for us being crap'. Scapegoats would suggest 'undeserved flak'. While the performances of the Kaunas loanees have not all been awful, they have surely not been so good to be considered that they have not been a reason for us being crap? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loveofthegame Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 Miko ------------ juanjo -Miko is a cult hero who i like, but Juanjo offered at least as much as Miko has Chesney -------- Valois Velicka --------- De vries- De Vries scored more goals over a longer spell. Velicka may have achieved more given the chance. Hard to seperate them. Zali ------------ Mckenna- Zali looks like he may have more potential IF he keeps playing like he has this season but on last seasons performances over the longer term McKenna has SO FAR been better Ksanavicius ------ Wyness- Both terrible. Wyness slightly less so. Kancelskis ------ Neilson- Neilson has played a couple of hundred games for us, Kanchelskis was a huddy who thankfully wasn't given the chance to play more. Barasa --------- A Mccann- Both huddys, Barasa slightly more so than McCann. Barasa was never ever a footballer Kilmek --------- eskilsson- Eskillson at least actually scored! Kello ----------- R Mckenzie? Kyzis --- Macfarlane Kurskis ------- Nelson- (Ive put in bold, which players i think are better). There's fairer comments on the quality of the players. Like it or not the Kaunas players have been on the whole, poor. Thankfully a few of them are showing signs of improvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cigaro Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 Miko ------------ juanjo Chesney -------- Valois Velicka --------- De vries Zali ------------ Mckenna Ksanavicius ------ Wyness Kancelskis ------ Neilson Barasa --------- A Mccann Kilmek --------- eskilsson?? Kello ----------- R Mckenzie? Kyzis (forgot his name) --- Macfarlane Kurskis ------- Nelson Like it or not, the Kaunas players are of the same standard that we have seen come in and out of Tynecastle. Some better than what we have had in the past. Some worse. (Ive put in bold, which players i think are better). I liked Wyness, to the extent where I think he would have been a better option behind the striker than Ksanavicius. Shame we never played him there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkfish1979 Posted August 31, 2008 Author Share Posted August 31, 2008 Amazed at the poll results so far. Of 22 replies, 20 have said that the 'Liths have been scapegoats for us being crap'. Scapegoats would suggest 'undeserved flak'. While the performances of the Kaunas loanees have not all been awful, they have surely not been so good to be considered that they have not been a reason for us being crap? I can see your point, but they aren't the sole reason - suggesting to me that they were scapegoats when other players got off with very little criticism. My OP was more to do with the fact that the alot of Lithuanian contingent seem to have been consistently in line with performances from the rest of the squad. There have been disaters (Kurskis, anybody?) but on the whole they haven't been half as bad as the media and some fans like to paint them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_jambo Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 There's fairer comments on the quality of the players. Like it or not the Kaunas players have been on the whole, poor. Thankfully a few of them are showing signs of improvement. Due to Vlad interfering/lack of managerial structure/demotivating culture at club or because they cant play football very well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_jambo Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 There's fairer comments on the quality of the players. Like it or not the Kaunas players have been on the whole, poor. Thankfully a few of them are showing signs of improvement. What did Kancelskis do wrong by the way? Genuine question? Im not trying to prove that the kaunas players are better. Just of similiar footballing ability to what we have had come through Tynecastle good and bad over the years. I dont expect you to seprate De vries and Velicka. Thats the point im trying to make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N User Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 It's an easy yes there. You only have to look at the form of Zaliukas, Mikoliunas, Ksanavicius, Berra, Driver, Stewart, Mole since Csaba has came in to show you how ALL players have suffered from mismanagement. Re: Kaunas Loanees. Did Pilibitis not come here with a decent reputation? Did Ivaskevicius not show some good flashes? These players could have been decent players for us in different circumstances. That being said, should Kurskis have ever been here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loveofthegame Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 Due to Vlad interfering/lack of managerial structure/demotivating culture at club or because they cant play football very well? A combination. Miko, Chesney, Velicka and now possibly Zali have ability. The rest just weren't good enough. Simple as that. Kanchelskis thankfully wasn't given the chance too ****** up massively. A big tree trunk who would have been shown up given the chance. Whatever happened to him since he left us? Can he even get a game for Kaunas? Genuine question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_jambo Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 A combination. Miko, Chesney, Velicka and now possibly Zali have ability. The rest just weren't good enough. Simple as that. Kanchelskis thankfully wasn't given the chance too ****** up massively. A big tree trunk who would have been shown up given the chance. Whatever happened to him since he left us? Can he even get a game for Kaunas? Genuine question. Im not sure about Kancelskis. Think Barca signed him. So now possibly Zal has ability? Did he find this ability under a rock somewhere or did he always possess it and the new management team has seen him realise his potential? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loveofthegame Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 Im not sure about Kancelskis. Think Barca signed him. So now possibly Zal has ability? Did he find this ability under a rock somewhere or did he always possess it and the new management team has seen him realise his potential? His performances last season where from someone who lacked a lot more than a bit of decent management. But yes he has found something this season, long may it continue. That doesn't hide the failings of so many other Lith's we've signed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_jambo Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 His performances last season where from someone who lacked a lot more than a bit of decent management. But yes he has found something this season, long may it continue. That doesn't hide the failings of so many other Lith's we've signed. Fair enough, we can agree to disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboAl Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 Amazed at the poll results so far. Of 22 replies, 20 have said that the 'Liths have been scapegoats for us being crap'. Scapegoats would suggest 'undeserved flak'. While the performances of the Kaunas loanees have not all been awful, they have surely not been so good to be considered that they have not been a reason for us being crap? You could have come to the conclusion that your opinion was wrong all along, or maybe you could claim that mainly the Vlad sheep have responded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coco Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 You could have come to the conclusion that your opinion was wrong all along, or maybe you could claim that mainly the Vlad sheep have responded. 40 out of 45 respondents have basically said that the Kaunas loanees have had no role in us being crap. I guess there is another conceivable answer and that is that the OP and the poll ask different questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loveofthegame Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 Fair enough, we can agree to disagree. Deal! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Benoit Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 Went for the Perth farmers option. I think to a certain degree that in the past (or in Section B on wednesday) that when things go wrong the ex-Kaunas players would always be the first to get it in the neck whether deserved or not but sometimes they have brought it on themselve through a bad attitude or lack of effort but now in Zali, Miko, Chesney, Kello and to a lesser degree Ksnavachoochoo we have at least good squad players who put in better performances! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N User Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 40 out of 45 respondents have basically said that the Kaunas loanees have had no role in us being crap. I guess there is another conceivable answer and that is that the OP and the poll ask different questions. No, they haven't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboAl Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 40 out of 45 respondents have basically said that the Kaunas loanees have had no role in us being crap. I guess there is another conceivable answer and that is that the OP and the poll ask different questions. I don't think they said that at all. They said they were made scapegoats for us being crap not that they had no role - you said that. And the fact that you were amazed suggests that nearly everybody (that voted) is out of step but you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portobellojambo1 Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 I don't think they said that at all.They said they were made scapegoats for us being crap not that they had no role - you said that. And the fact that you were amazed suggests that nearly everybody (that voted) is out of step but you. I don't think they were made scapegoats for us being crap, I think people said they were crap because, in general, they were crap. I think what possibly further antagonised the situation was the fact that Romanov seemed to indicate that he was using Hearts to showcase Lithuanian players. The reality is only Velicka has benefited so far, and even he had a few stinkers for Hearts, if you were to analyse his stats on a straight goals scored versus chances missed I would reckon the final figures would be around 20% (goals scored) and 80% (chances missed). Zaliukas has certainly picked up this season, although I believe Laszlo has stated he wants to bring in someone to play alongside Berra, the rest of the actual Lithuanian players, I see no improvement in. Kello has come in from Kaunas, but he is Slovakian and is a good goalkeeper, and has been accepted. And the reason he has been accepted is because, and I think this is the crux of the matter, he is a decent player. Personally I don't give a flying kack where a player comes from as long as they are decent quality, and better than we already have (or certainly at last as good as). I still believe, however, we are limiting our vision by depending on the other teams Romanov has to provide the players we need to get better. I would prefer scouts to be travelling all over the world both looking at players and making judgement on them, but that is just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 Poorer players like Robbie Neilson, Jose Goncalves, Calum Elliot and others have been as responsible for the decline in the teams form as Kaunas/Lithuanian players so if people are to blame Kaunas players as the primary reason then yes they are being made scapegoats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambo jot Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 I would say the only Lith you can blame is Romanov after all its his fault we are sh**e Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JamboRobbo Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 Poorer players like Robbie Neilson, Jose Goncalves, Calum Elliot and others have been as responsible for the decline in the teams form as Kaunas/Lithuanian players so if people are to blame Kaunas players as the primary reason then yes they are being made scapegoats. And got their fair share of stick for it. Poor players get stick from fans. Seems pretty simple to me. Nothing much to do with being Lithuanian, plenty to do with being poor at football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambos are go! Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 I would say the only Lith you can blame is Romanov after all its his fault we are sh**e Romanov is a Russian not a Lithuanian. Mind you his critics dont seem so keen on facts as opposed to opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 And got their fair share of stick for it. Poor players get stick from fans. Seems pretty simple to me. Nothing much to do with being Lithuanian, plenty to do with being poor at football. So why justify only them being boo'd prior to a game? If that isn't making them scape-goats what is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Quagmire Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 I think that the majority of fans make their judgements on players based on what they do on the pitch. And for the most part the performances of Kaunas loanees have been poor relative to the other options available. I think that there have been successes - Miko now deserves a transfer and a full contract with Hearts. Velicka was a success in terms of transfer fee for UBIG/Kaunas. And Chesney/Zaliukas have had decent games. But otherwise they have mostly held the team back. Utter Rubbish, do you think Robbie holds the team back ? Or what about Clum, Wallace, Mole, etc etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1874robbo Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 I think a lot of the Lithuanian players problems have came from our very own press having a dig at every opportunity. Some fans believe everything the press print. I couldn't make the game yesterday due to work but on reading kbers reports it seems Zaliukus had a very good game whereas Berra wasn't as good. Here is my example. News of the world ratings:Marius Zaliukus,took his goal well enough but toiled defensively. Christophe Berra,Skipper was cool and calm at heart of defence. Sunday mail has Berra in team of the day. I am only going on what some people posted on here so the papers may well be correct or maybe they just don't like Lithuanians?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spellczech Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 I think the whole team, indeed the club, has been held back by chronic mismanagement. Ever since Rix came in and many fans refused to give him a chance for non-footballing reasons, the Hearts home support has been poisonous and scarily quick to get on the case of players. I think young players have been introduced reasonably well even when the team was playing poorly (apart from Frail missing a massive chance to blood some youngsters at the tail end of last season), but the team being poor at the time was the management's fault. Elliot for instance was given a huge number of chances. The introduction of loaness has been terrible though... We've seen Lithuanians booed on their debuts, thrown into derbies and OF away matches on their debuts, played out of postion on their debuts...all bonkers management decisions in the climate that Kaunas loanees were facing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboRossi79 Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 Kaunas players Saulius Mikoliūnas - Success (played 113 games) Marius Kizys - Ok (played 8 games) Marius ?aliūkas - Success (played 62 games) Andrius Velička - Success (played 56 games) Kęstutis Iva?kevičius - Ok (played 28 games) Arkadiusz Klimek - Fail (played 2 games) Eduardas Kurskis - Fail (played 4 games) Tomas Kančelskis - Ok (played 7 games) Linas Pilibaitis - Ok (played 5 games) Ričardas Beniu?is - Fail (played 8 games) Audrius Ksanavičius - Ok (played 28 games) Marian Kello - TBC (played 3 games) Adrian Mrowiec - TBC (yet to play) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted September 1, 2008 Share Posted September 1, 2008 I voted St Johnstone. There is a negative perception about any player from Kaunas (look at the reactions to Kello and Mrodiewc) and they end up under more scrutiny than any other player as a result. Having said that, that is because most of them in the past have been humpty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JamboRobbo Posted September 1, 2008 Share Posted September 1, 2008 So why justify only them being boo'd prior to a game? If that isn't making them scape-goats what is? That was a message to Vlad to stop his interfering. Pure and simple. If you cannie see that you must be even blinder than I thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted September 1, 2008 Share Posted September 1, 2008 That was a message to Vlad to stop his interfering. Pure and simple. If you cannie see that you must be even blinder than I thought. No it was racist and making them scape-goats - and if you canny see that then you must be a bigger xenophobe than I thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JamboRobbo Posted September 1, 2008 Share Posted September 1, 2008 No it was racist and making them scape-goats - and if you canny see that then you must be a bigger xenophobe than I thought. Keep the accusations of racism/xenephobia to yourself. I'm an neither a racist or a xenephobe, and I resent your accusations that I am. Doesn't surprise me to see you following Mr Koslovskis lead though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted September 1, 2008 Share Posted September 1, 2008 Keep the accusations of racism/xenephobia to yourself. You personally have repeatedly condoned what most reasonable people consider to have been a shameful and racist/xenophobic act - the targeted abuse of one group on the grounds of nationality / ethnic origin for something that they were in no way to blame for - if Hearts fans wanted to send a mesage to Romanov about interference then Banners, Songs or Chants would have been a much more meaningful and clearer to way get the point across - why target only one group? I'm sure if you say it was because of poorer players being in the team not on merit then that applied to other nationalities as well, regular Lithuanian posters on here considered it offensive and racist - so how you can't see it was shameful and continue to defend it then lord knows - and as long as you do so you will leave yourself open to accusations of racism / xenophobia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JamboRobbo Posted September 1, 2008 Share Posted September 1, 2008 You personally have repeatedly condoned what most reasonable people consider to have been a shameful and racist/xenophobic act - the targeted abuse of one group on the grounds of nationality / ethnic origin for something that they were in no way to blame for - if Hearts fans wanted to send a mesage to Romanov about interference then Banners, Songs or Chants would have been a much more meaningful and clearer to way get the point across - why target only one group? I'm sure if you say it was because of poorer players being in the team not on merit then that applied to other nationalities as well, regular Lithuanian posters on here considered it offensive and racist - so how you can't see it was shameful and continue to defend it then lord knows - and as long as you do so you will leave yourself open to accusations of racism / xenophobia. FFS. What part of "IT WAS A MESSAGE FROM FANS TO VLAD" do you not understand? You are truly unbeleviable with your accusations that I and other Hearts fans are racist or xenephobic. I hope the mods will deal with these repeated accusations which are totally out of order, and appear designed to get a reaction from others. You should stick to posting messages from None and pretending they are your own work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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