Is English football Failing? (NHC)

[Charlie-Brown]

Before anybody starts I know that thanks to Sky & Setanta commercially English football is very lucrative with more money pouring into their game than ever before and superstars from all over the world are flocking to the biggest clubs who are also achieving success in the Champions League.

 

But is this huge amount of money - way in excess of anything ever seen before - simply being wasted and flooding out of football and into the pockets of players and their agents and also to foreign clubs coffers.

 

Is English football actually any better off financially and is it better off in footballing terms?

 

Most EPL & EFL clubs including the big four are saddled with enormous debts and in terms of players & coaches the top league in england has one of the lowest percentages of native-players getting appearances.

 

The Italians have enjoyed champions league success recently (Milan) as well as winning the 2006 world cup, the Spanish have enjoyed Champions league success as well as winning this summers European Championships, the German national team has reached the final and finished 3rd in the last 2 major international tournaments and the Dutch continue to do very well in International Tournaments at Youth level, Russian teams have enjoyed UEFA Cup success in recent seasons and this year Russia reached the Semi's of Euro-2008.

 

It seems that at club level the Spanish, Italians & Germans all have a higher percentage of native players in their teams than the English clubs do.

 

The relatively poorer performances of English international teams at all levels is probably a reflection of this.

 

Even in last years Champions league when Rangers & Celtic were playing group matches there was more Scots in those 2 teams than there was English in their 4 teams - and to cap it all in todays Champions League draw there are 3 teams with Scottish Managers (Ferguson, Strachan & Rioch) but not one single Englishman is managing in the Champions League group stages - McLaren's FC Twente got thumped 6-0 on aggregate by the multi-national notionally English club Arsenal in the qualifying stages so that ends England's interest in highest-level of club football from a managerial perspective for another season.

 

Despite it's apparent 'success' & tremendous financial revenue is English football actually failing to make any real progress ?

[Statto]

Before anybody starts I know that thanks to Sky & Setanta commercially English football is very lucrative with more money pouring into their game than ever before and superstars from all over the world are flocking to the biggest clubs who are also achieving success in the Champions League.

 

But is this huge amount of money - way in excess of anything ever seen before - simply being wasted and flooding out of football and into the pockets of players and their agents and also to foreign clubs coffers.

 

Is English football actually any better off financially and is it better off in footballing terms?

 

Most EPL & EFL clubs including the big four are saddled with enormous debts and in terms of players & coaches the top league in england has one of the lowest percentages of native-players getting appearances.

 

The Italians have enjoyed champions league success recently (Milan) as well as winning the 2006 world cup, the Spanish have enjoyed Champions league success as well as winning this summers European Championships, the German national team has reached the final and finished 3rd in the last 2 major international tournaments and the Dutch continue to do very well in International Tournaments at Youth level, Russian teams have enjoyed UEFA Cup success in recent seasons and this year Russia reached the Semi's of Euro-2008.

 

It seems that at club level the Spanish, Italians & Germans all have a higher percentage of native players in their teams than the English clubs do.

 

The relatively poorer performances of English international teams at all levels is probably a reflection of this.

 

Even in last years Champions league when Rangers & Celtic were playing group matches there was more Scots in those 2 teams than there was English in their 4 teams - and to cap it all in todays Champions League draw there are 3 teams with Scottish Managers (Ferguson, Strachan & Rioch) but not one single Englishman is managing in the Champions League group stages - McLaren's FC Twente got thumped 6-0 on aggregate by the multi-national notionally English club Arsenal in the qualifying stages so that ends England's interest in highest-level of club football from a managerial perspective for another season.

 

Despite it's apparent 'success' & tremendous financial revenue is English football actually failing to make any real progress ?

 

Interesting view, I agree, England and the FA really need to bring in a rule that means teams have to have a percentage of players in their squad who are English, as a Scot I hope they don't but I do like watching English football and it would be a shame for clubs like Liverpool, Chelsea and Man U to start running into huge debts which stop them bringing in the players that have made them so great to watch over the past few years.

[keith1964]

Arsenal regularly put out a starting 11 with not one englishman in the team , this cannot be good for the game down there and will be adressed , as the signing policies of the big 4 is detrimental to the english national team (keep up the good work Fergie)

[Charlie-Brown]

It must be worrying for the English from a coaching perspective that none of their top sides are managed by an englishman, 2 of their last 3 international managers have been foreigners and the one who wasn't was their biggest recent flop...i haven't checked but i'd wager that the Premiership probably has the highest percentage of non-national managers as well compared to their major european rivals.

[Charlie-Brown]

Interesting view, I agree, England and the FA really need to bring in a rule that means teams have to have a percentage of players in their squad who are English, as a Scot I hope they don't but I do like watching English football and it would be a shame for clubs like Liverpool, Chelsea and Man U to start running into huge debts which stop them bringing in the players that have made them so great to watch over the past few years.

 

The big four in England (Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, Man Utd) have combined debts of over ?2 Billion (two thousand million pounds!!!!) despite receiving greater revenues per annum than at any point in their history.

[keith1964]

It must be worrying for the English from a coaching perspective that none of their top sides are managed by an englishman, 2 of their last 3 international managers have been foreigners and the one who wasn't was their biggest recent flop...i haven't checked but i'd wager that the Premiership probably has the highest percentage of non-national managers as well compared to their major european rivals.

 

Probably the league with the most foriegners in it as well , a lot of these big english stars are made to look good by the classy players that play along side them.

The **** hits the fan when they play together.

[shaun.lawson]

It depends on how you look at things, really. On the one hand, if you look at last season's CL results, the dominance of English clubs was absolute. Arsenal were knocked out by Liverpool who were knocked out by Chelsea who ran Man Utd to a standstill in the final. And it's doubtful whether any would've been eliminated by any other side from any other country.

 

Why? Money. The huge amounts garnered from SKY coupled with the self-fulfilling prophecy of the same four clubs reaching the CL and siphoning off all the money there creates an ever larger gap over the rest of the EPL, and increasingly, even Europe's biggest clubs can't keep up either. But it's a hollow paradise, based on a crazy world of almost no regulation at all, a league which now features one fugitive from justice, one son of an arms dealer, two venture capitalists piling debt onto their clubs, two clubs heading for meltdown in the not too distant future (Man City and West Ham), sugardaddies, foreign owners and wealthy consortia galore, and one man, Roman Abramovich, whose wealth enables his club to punch miles above its natural weight, and has created an intolerable competitive burden on the rest of the division.

 

In France, clubs have to be run in the black, or are forcibly demoted by the authorities - and I believe something similar applies in Germany too. In Holland or Portugal, clubs receive nothing like the same amounts from TV, so can't compete; and even Italy and Spain are much more regulated than here. Meanwhile, results in the UEFA Cup suggest that actually, below four de facto Super League clubs, the EPL isn't that brilliant at all: Blackburn were eliminated early on last season, and Spurs and Everton in the last 16 - while a team as limited as Rangers went all the way to the final.

 

England already hosts the world's greatest tennis tournament, and Britain hosts arguably the world's greatest golf tournament. In much the same way, England is effectively host to the world's wealthiest, yet utterly multinational league. Meanwhile, famous clubs with distinguished pasts and sizeable support bases such as Wolves, Sheffield Wednesday, Derby or Nottingham Forest find themselves unable to compete with much smaller ones like Wigan or Fulham who just happen to be bankrolled by a plutocrat; and others, formerly regarded as established top flight members like Southampton, Coventry or Norwich are now peering over the precipice into League 1.

 

All of which creates disillusionment and apathy among huge amounts of supporters up and down the land. The average age of an EPL season ticket holder is now 40: an entire generation is being lost to the game. Meanwhile, if 17th place equates to winning the league for many clubs, and 5th, wining the Champions League, what really is the point of it all anyway? Charlton fans got plain bored by finishing mid-table in the Prem every year, so were relieved when Alan Curbishley left. It's got a whole lot worse since, but I doubt they'd want him back now - because 10th place, however much it represented the zenith of their capabilities, is just not exciting.

 

Where this ultimately will lead, heaven only knows. Perhaps there'll be some high profile casualties to rank alongside Leeds. Perhaps the Big Four will ultimately disappear into a Super League. Perhaps, someday, things will calm down and we can get back to a competitive league structure in which there's real hope for everyone, and doesn't feature grotesque anomalies such as Chelsea or Man Utd being ?750m in debt, or West Ham breaking all the rules going only to get away with it, while Luton, under new, decent owners, are practically shoved down the trapdoor and have it slammed shut by the authorities. But the horse probably bolted long ago, and there's little anyone can realistically do about it in this new ruthless world.

 

Finally, as for England - laughably, one of the main aims of the Premier League when it was set up was to help the national team. Yet despite the huge influx of players from overseas, English footballers still cannot pass or keep the ball, have inferior technique, and can't understand or adapt to new tactics to save their lives. You want intelligence? Try Italy, Holland or Spain - but it'll never happen here. Not in a country which prizes work rate, physical strength and players who 'like to get a foot in' over technique, subtlety and those fancy dan foreigners who won't track back. It's how we are, and have always been - and I have no truck at all with those who blame England's woes on too many foreign players.

 

In that case, why were England so crap during the 'golden age' of the 1970s? Why, indeed, is our historical record so lamentably average? Answer: because England have rarely been anything more than a rich man's version of Sweden. Competitive, well organised, but always up against it against technically superior and tactically smarter opponents from Brazil, Italy, Argentina, France, Spain, Holland and sometimes Germany. Somewhere slightly above mid-table in football's league of nations, in other words - and the reasons for that go back to coaching and culture. Things haven't improved much during the EPL years, but they haven't got any worse either.

[269miles]

The Premiership is in serious decline. Most clubs outside of the top 4 are experiencing falling gates and it's not a recent problem : it's been happening for the last 2 or 3 years. Steve Bruce said last week ' we used to laugh at Celtic & Rangers' by which he meant their dominance of a Mickey Mouse league. But now it's no different in England.

 

The top 4 in England are buying not coaching their best players. The money available through Sky - allied to CL incomes - have completely distorted wages for a journeyman player to the extent that nobodies like Anton Ferdinand (who will never even get near an England jersey) earns far more than nearly any player in Spain , Germany or Italy.

 

The distortion of the market is even unsettling UEFA and their gang of 14 who have now realised that the current CL format is perpetuating a system whereby English clubs are beginning to exert a stranglehold on the CL itself.

 

So while the domestic game in Engalnd is in serious decline , at the highest level , their clubs are completely dominant. Dontcha just love irony.

 

And let's not forget that this all runs at a cost : the two CL finalists this season had a combined debt of over 1.4 billion Euros. So , two bankrupt businesses are dominating English & European football.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Some other food for thought on this thread. An excellent Fanzine Fanzone article from The Times: -

 

http://timesonline.typepad.com/fanzine_fanzone/2008/08/theyll-only-mis.html

[JamboJay]

I know this is a common pub/sports quiz question so someone's bound to know.

 

Who was the last 'English' manager whose team lifted the EPL?

[shaun.lawson]

I know this is a common pub/sports quiz question so someone's bound to know.

 

Who was the last 'English' manager whose team lifted the EPL?

 

None ever has. The last English manager to win the title was Howard Wilkinson in 1992.

[Charlie-Brown]

So wealth is of virtually no benefit to English football given most are riddled with debt and little real progress is being made on the pitch except by the global-11's put together by the super-debt-rich-clubs?

[269miles]

So wealth is of virtually no benefit to English football given most are riddled with debt and little real progress is being made on the pitch except by the global-11's put together by the super-debt-rich-clubs?

 

Yeah , pretty much.

 

Sky are pumping more money than ever into the EPL but tickets prices have never been higher nor so many in serious debt.

[Charlie-Brown]

Yeah , pretty much.

 

Sky are pumping more money than ever into the EPL but tickets prices have never been higher nor so many in serious debt.

 

So more money is coming in than ever before but even more money is going out the door even quicker........at least most of them have nice stadiums and built football academy's - just a pity very few will risk giving their kids a chance and even take the best youths from abroad to play in the english reserve & academy leagues....but rarely the first teams unless they're exceptional.

[shaun.lawson]

Some other food for thought on this thread. An excellent Fanzine Fanzone article from The Times: -

 

http://timesonline.typepad.com/fanzine_fanzone/2008/08/theyll-only-mis.html

 

What a brilliant article. He's absolutely spot on: the Premier League is a global brand, and all the money's to be made from tapping into consumer bases in the Far East and US. Hence Game 39, which hasn't been binned, and is still very much on the agenda; hence Man City Chairman Garry Cook's positively dystopian vision of a league with 14 clubs and no relegation. With less and less proportion of turnover coming from gate receipts, fans increasingly don't count - so who cares if ticket prices are sky high, and generations of real football people are being priced out?

 

And he's damn right about the nauseating amounts of manufactured support now too. At the Riverside stadium, where thousands of home fans come disguised as seats, there's usually less atmosphere than on the moon. Except on those rare occasions when the home side scores - at which point, one of those ghastly feelgood tunes gets blasted out by the PA, and the supporters join in like sheep. It's embarrassing. What next? Games kicking off at midnight to suit SKY TV, and canned noise being pumped in to make up for no fans being there?*

 

*Although in Norwich's case, it should probably be canned laughter...

[shaun.lawson]

It must be worrying for the English from a coaching perspective that none of their top sides are managed by an englishman, 2 of their last 3 international managers have been foreigners and the one who wasn't was their biggest recent flop...i haven't checked but i'd wager that the Premiership probably has the highest percentage of non-national managers as well compared to their major european rivals.

 

But this is a self-fulfilling prophecy too. Naturally, the biggest, most successful clubs in the world's wealthiest and arguably best league want only the very best managers - and Sir Alex Ferguson, Luiz Felipe Scolari, Arsene Wenger and Rafael Benitez are amongst the finest in the world. But because it's now practically impossible to dislodge any of the Big Four, it's also impossible for an up-and-coming English (and increasingly, British) manager, however talented, to prove himself good enough to get one of the top jobs.

 

The reason Mark Hughes took the Man City job is because, with Blackburn running out of money and likely to go backwards, he had to find some way of making a bigger name for himself. But he was overlooked for the Chelsea, Tottenham and (for reasons I still can't fathom) Newcastle jobs, and the incumbents at Villa and Everton are popular and safe. That really only left City - not that I think even he grasped what a gamble it would prove to be with such a ****storm developing off the pitch. But even then, he still ain't going to get City into the Champions League - so if you're Sparky, Martin O'Neill or David Moyes, let alone a promising English gaffer like Tony Mowbray, the door to the biggest jobs here is barred.

 

The only solution I can see is for them to go abroad. Foreign players come here, and foreign managers come here. Learning a new language and assimilating into a new culture holds no fears for them - so what on earth makes us so special? Because it's the only route into the CL - and no CL or overseas experience equals a lack of technical development and footballing education and no chance of one of the Big Four taking a punt on you. Leaving the FA with no choice other than to go foreign, so further disillusioning English coaches - because the alternative is appointing someone without good enough qualifications for a horrendously difficult job in which tactics, knowledge, gravitas and intelligence are everything.

[shaun.lawson]

Time for another airing of this classic article, methinks:

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2005/sep/02/sport.blueprintforabetterfootball

 

Three years on, has anything changed?

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

Time for another airing of this classic article, methinks:

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2005/sep/02/sport.blueprintforabetterfootball

 

Three years on, has anything changed?

 

Ouch.

[NYC-Hearts]

 

Three years on, has anything changed?

 

Yes, for the worse.

 

I remember sending this article to a number of friends back in that halcyon Burley age, and most thought I was being a miserable *******. What has happened since? The EPL has become even more ossified, the long and tedious slog to a super league continues, and an increasing number of lower league clubs teeter on the precipice of financial ruin. As for one of Sean's purported "bright spots,"

 

And then there's Luton, who having escaped the clutches of John Gurney largely due to fans' pressure and a skilful media campaign, now stand atop the Championship.

 

it has gone from Mad Gurney, with his plans for building a new luton ground in and around an F1 track, to topping the championship, to being ruthlessly relegated to the conference (effectively) by the league...

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Yes, for the worse.

 

I remember sending this article to a number of friends back in that halcyon Burley age, and most thought I was being a miserable *******. What has happened since? The EPL has become even more ossified, the long and tedious slog to a super league continues, and an increasing number of lower league clubs teeter on the precipice of financial ruin. As for one of Sean's purported "bright spots,"

 

And then there's Luton, who having escaped the clutches of John Gurney largely due to fans' pressure and a skilful media campaign, now stand atop the Championship.

 

it has gone from Mad Gurney, with his plans for building a new luton ground in and around an F1 track, to topping the championship, to being ruthlessly relegated to the conference (effectively) by the league...

 

The interesting perspective I've gained on the Premiership over here is the interest of Aussies in it (EPL over here). They really tend to follow one of the 'big four' and will disrupt sleep patterns etc. to watch games. Part of that comes from the Champions League as well. However, they express surprise that there is no 'finals' series with which to conclude the season, like the sports out here (or indeed the NFL in the US). In the absence of Game 39, I would suggest this will be next development. A finals series with games potentially played outside the UK but with a "grand final" at Wembley.

 

As long as the bums on seats can be generated, the Premiership won't care.

[NYC-Hearts]

The interesting perspective I've gained on the Premiership over here is the interest of Aussies in it (EPL over here). They really tend to follow one of the 'big four' and will disrupt sleep patterns etc. to watch games. Part of that comes from the Champions League as well. However, they express surprise that there is no 'finals' series with which to conclude the season, like the sports out here (or indeed the NFL in the US).

 

The EPL has done an extraordinary job of marketing its product. If one walks into a number of bars on saturday morning at 730 AM in New York, you'll see dozens of americans, aged 16-40, wearing a Big 4 jersey. They may not have have any clue about the game, they may complain about how the lack of playoffs is "lame", but damn, do they love watching United, Chelsea or Liverpool while being dressed entirely in officially licensed club or FA gear...(american soccer fans generally loooooove Team Ingerlund as much as they love their top 4...)

[Charlie-Brown]

Obviously because of the Premiership's commercial success a lot of people both on and off the pitch have become fabulously wealthy or derive huge salaries because of their involvement with it and most clubs revenues are far higher than ever before BUT the financial position of most clubs is steadily deteriorating with many making huge losses and/or having massive debts - even with massive incomes there is only so long that can continue before the financial burden starts to take effect - Leeds & Leicester being 2 prominent examples of what can happen.

[speedbump]

The big four in England (Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, Man Utd) have combined debts of over ?2 Billion (two thousand million pounds!!!!) despite receiving greater revenues per annum than at any point in their history.

 

Man Utd debt = Loans on shares to buy the club.

Arsenal = Finance on the stadium, be paid of soon enough seeing as they bring in ?3 million per home game.

Chelsea = Could be written off in a stroke by their billionaire owner.

Liverpool = Not too sure but it might be similair to Man Utd.

[Liam01]

football is a commodity now & not a sport, it won't change anytime soon. certainly not down south anyway.

[spacerjoe]

Before anybody starts I know that thanks to Sky & Setanta commercially English football is very lucrative with more money pouring into their game than ever before and superstars from all over the world are flocking to the biggest clubs who are also achieving success in the Champions League.

 

But is this huge amount of money - way in excess of anything ever seen before - simply being wasted and flooding out of football and into the pockets of players and their agents and also to foreign clubs coffers.

 

Is English football actually any better off financially and is it better off in footballing terms?

 

Most EPL & EFL clubs including the big four are saddled with enormous debts and in terms of players & coaches the top league in england has one of the lowest percentages of native-players getting appearances.

 

The Italians have enjoyed champions league success recently (Milan) as well as winning the 2006 world cup, the Spanish have enjoyed Champions league success as well as winning this summers European Championships, the German national team has reached the final and finished 3rd in the last 2 major international tournaments and the Dutch continue to do very well in International Tournaments at Youth level, Russian teams have enjoyed UEFA Cup success in recent seasons and this year Russia reached the Semi's of Euro-2008.

 

It seems that at club level the Spanish, Italians & Germans all have a higher percentage of native players in their teams than the English clubs do.

 

The relatively poorer performances of English international teams at all levels is probably a reflection of this.

 

Even in last years Champions league when Rangers & Celtic were playing group matches there was more Scots in those 2 teams than there was English in their 4 teams - and to cap it all in todays Champions League draw there are 3 teams with Scottish Managers (Ferguson, Strachan & Rioch) but not one single Englishman is managing in the Champions League group stages - McLaren's FC Twente got thumped 6-0 on aggregate by the multi-national notionally English club Arsenal in the qualifying stages so that ends England's interest in highest-level of club football from a managerial perspective for another season.

 

Despite it's apparent 'success' & tremendous financial revenue is English football actually failing to make any real progress ?

 

An English side has made it to the champions league final the last 4 years, twice winners and three times runners up.

 

Check out the nominations for the UEFA club player of the year for 2007/08. http://football.uk.reuters.com/uk/news/LM608338.php

 

Its not just English based players, but English players that dominate the nominations.

 

Their failure to make it to a major international final surprises me though. Their first team is definitely strong enough.

[jamboinglasgow]

In my mind English football is failing in terms that the english football team is suffering and it is thanks to the EPL and sky and also the countries attitude.

 

The EPL is my first concern. Skys money came in and it could of worked well through lower STs or investing in the best coaches and scouts to create great systems for bringing through youth but sadly it was put through over inflated transfers for players. When I see ?15 million being banded about for Barry it sadens me as that is more than all the non-OF spl clubs have spent on players in say 10 years. Small clubs would love to have even a tenth of that money yet the money is thrown around for good but not amazing players.

 

The fact is that has often been stated that being in the EPL is worth at least ?50 million. Now that is a disaster to lose so no wonder lower clubs spend huge amounts on getting expensive foregin players who can keep them up. Which leads me to the bit about the english national team and the EPL. As NMH stated the academys which the premiership clubs have are full of non-English players who the clubs have bought in big amounts. I like Arsenal and like Arsene attitude to youth but how he does it sums up English football. He finds it better to scourer the globe to find a young player he can develop rather than huge money on a player who has fully developed. Makes more sense financially but also doesn't give much chance to English players who come up through the youth ranks. To think back to the golden generation of the mid 90's for man Utd when a whole great raft of players came through, Beckham, Scholes, the Neville Brothers, Giggs (welsh I know) and others. These players helped England over the next few seasons but there has not been another one like this (though they are rare.)

 

I think its interesting that the clubs producing most English youth that are now seen as hot property are the championship sides. Crystal Palace are seen as one of the hottest youth academys (though this may not last due to the shameful cheap transfer that one of their brightest prospects, John Bostock, went to tottenham for a fraction of his worth due to a panel deciding his price. The owner of Palace said he wanted to leave as he felt whats the use.) I think though the situation of development came about in the championship due to the tv money drying up a few years back. Clubs realised that they cant afford big foregin players filling up their youth ranks so went to English talent. The same happened in Scotland where when clubs started going into administration there was a whole change in policy where youth was revered and there has been some real benefit starting to come through from that though I would argue that it will be fully shown over the next few seasons.

 

England has to reform the EPL or face years of misery in the football front has Cappello can only do so much with what he has. THere needs to be total change all across England.