2012 - how will britain represent itself?

[jamboinglasgow]

Now I am a bit unsure in posting this cos I dont want to sound like Richard Littlejohn (the guy is a complete s***.) But I was watching the new titles for the BBC's olympic coverage in Beljing and really enjoyed it and though the titles are modern they still maintain a sense of Chinese identy in the storytelling and images. In the opening cermony they will no doubt have many traditional chinese dances and acts even if some are made more modern.

 

It made me think about 2012. The eyes of the world would be on britain. But how will Britain demonstrate British culture and history in the opening cermeony and various other ways. The thing I am worried about is that what we will show is multi-culture. Now I am not saying that is wrong. But I think it will be nothing but that i.e. what we are showing the world is what they have at home with the a tiny bit of British style to it. I would rather have mainly british culture with some multi-cultural things put in to show we are open to the world.

 

It reminds me of something I was listening to on five live a few days ago where a British tv producer was saying that we are too busy putting in quotas of ethic backrounds into tv shows rather than letting them develop better. He said that tv producers live in London and forget that the majority of the country is not like London in that London is so varied in cultures and that shoe horning as many ethnic people into a soap set in say Newcastle is not really repersentive of the actual place and so is actully damaging to the ethnic groups. To me that could be the same with the olympics. THe interview was a bit embarresing as Colin Murray (who I like especilly for Fighting talk) was trying to say as many times that the BBC was the exception.

 

I dont know why, but I even feel ashamed I posted that like it was racist.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

You shouldn't feel ashamed - that's the PC reality of the UK that people are actually "worried" that things they can say can be construed as "racist".

[Coco]

I hope that this ridiculous waste of money is cancelled and soon. Yet another of Blair/Brown's 'legacies'.

 

I read an interesting suggestion that it should be held in Athens every time. They have all the facilities, and this would stop the pork barrel, bribing waste of money for each country it is held in.

[Seats]

Sorry, this has feck all to do with Britain. This one is London, London, London - I suspect even the rest of England will feel detached from this one. Sounds like another "dome" type white elephant to me.

[Toggie88]

London is completely disattached from noth only our country but also the rest of the UK. It's understandable why this happens, but it shouldn't be an excuse as to why this happens.

 

I honestly don't know how you can represent British Culture and British History. The former is a completely manufactured and there is no natural formation behind it. British History is another one, I can't think of many good examples of British history other than winning a war.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

London is completely disattached from noth only our country but also the rest of the UK. It's understandable why this happens, but it shouldn't be an excuse as to why this happens.

 

I honestly don't know how you can represent British Culture and British History. The former is a completely manufactured and there is no natural formation behind it. British History is another one, I can't think of many good examples of British history other than winning a war.

 

The British Empire must have been an accident then.

 

And I know people point out the rights and wrongs in a modern context of that Empire but if you take the prevailing thinking at that time it is quite amazing that two wee islands off the North West coast of Europe came to "own" 1/4 of the Earth's land surface.

[leginten]

But how will Britain demonstrate British culture and history in the opening cermeony...

 

Synchronized car-keying?

A street-spitting exhibition?

Talent show (plooky, talentless no-hopers only, obviously)?

Curry eating contest?

TV watching marathon?

 

The possibilities are endless.

[Boris]

London is completely disattached from noth only our country but also the rest of the UK. It's understandable why this happens, but it shouldn't be an excuse as to why this happens.

 

I honestly don't know how you can represent British Culture and British History. The former is a completely manufactured and there is no natural formation behind it. British History is another one, I can't think of many good examples of British history other than winning a war.

 

Toggie, even for you that is naive!

 

1. Parliamentary Democracy (of sorts, but from small acorns)

2. The Enlightenment

3. The Industrial Revolution

4. Military success, arguably in a benign way...

5. Tolerant society (again arguable...)

 

All British "institutions"!

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

I would also add most of the organised sports in the world to that as well.

[maltese jambo]

Its not our problem anyway! Scotland will be independent by then and thus we will be relieved from any embarresment of watching them make a fool of themselves (before we make a fool of ourselves in the competition proper!).

 

I'm waiting for a eastenders theme tune entrance followed by morris dancing and of course the creme de la creme of english musical numbers 'i fink that you are really fit' to top it all off.

 

The logo says it all.

[A Boy Named Crow]

Sorry, this has feck all to do with Britain. This one is London, London, London - I suspect even the rest of England will feel detached from this one. Sounds like another "dome" type white elephant to me.

 

Exactly how i feel. It is the London Olympics, and so should represent the culture etc of London. I have no problem with this at all. What I do have a problem with is the government's assertion that this is an event for the whole country, thus getting them out of having to balance the spend in London with a spend in Scotland. Yet more diddling of the Scots by Westminster...

SAOR ALBA A-NIS!

[Toggie88]

Toggie, even for you that is naive!

 

1. Parliamentary Democracy (of sorts, but from small acorns) New Zealand and Germany were far more democratic way before Britain.

2. The Enlightenment It was a European thing, it happened in France and also Germany

3. The Industrial Revolution Fair enough

4. Military success, arguably in a benign way... You can argue military success happened for a lot of natiosn. Some of the it was just, some of it wasn't

5. Tolerant society (again arguable...) As you say, arguably - other nations also had this.

 

All British "institutions"!

 

I do take your points though.

[Toggie88]

The British Empire must have been an accident then.

 

And I know people point out the rights and wrongs in a modern context of that Empire but if you take the prevailing thinking at that time it is quite amazing that two wee islands off the North West coast of Europe came to "own" 1/4 of the Earth's land surface.

 

It was quite an achievement. But as you say, the there is serious wrongs about what happened with the Empire.

 

I don't think an opening ceremony with the empire being the focal point would strike to many chords at the Olympics.

[i8hibsh]

London is completely disattached from noth only our country but also the rest of the UK. It's understandable why this happens, but it shouldn't be an excuse as to why this happens.

 

I honestly don't know how you can represent British Culture and British History. The former is a completely manufactured and there is no natural formation behind it. British History is another one, I can't think of many good examples of British history other than winning a war.

 

Oh dear god

[i8hibsh]

Toggie, even for you that is naive!

 

1. Parliamentary Democracy (of sorts, but from small acorns)

2. The Enlightenment

3. The Industrial Revolution

4. Military success, arguably in a benign way...

5. Tolerant society (again arguable...)

 

All British "institutions"!

 

Come on it's Toggie we are talking about

[Era Macaroons]

But how will Britain demonstrate British culture and history in the opening cermeony and various other ways..

 

I think we demonstrate this in our normal manner

 

All athletes and visiting fans should be given a 3 bed council house on arrival, fast tracked onto our benefits system and invited to use the NHS as much as they like.

 

We could then take everyone out and get bevvied up, scoff a curry, and have a scrap.

 

For the closing ceremony we could have a war somewhere, some place that needs brought up to our standards.

 

Seriously though, how anyone can define 'British' culture in the present day is beyond me.

[lookoutjoe]

Toggie, even for you that is naive!

 

1. Parliamentary Democracy (of sorts, but from small acorns)

2. The Enlightenment

3. The Industrial Revolution

4. Military success, arguably in a benign way...

5. Tolerant society (again arguable...)

 

All British "institutions"!

 

But how are you going to represent all this throught the medium of dance?

 

:Hearts Man dance:

[Boris]

I do take your points though.

 

Originally Posted by Boris

Toggie, even for you that is naive!

 

1. Parliamentary Democracy (of sorts, but from small acorns) New Zealand and Germany were far more democratic way before Britain.

2. The Enlightenment It was a European thing, it happened in France and also Germany

3. The Industrial Revolution Fair enough

4. Military success, arguably in a benign way... You can argue military success happened for a lot of natiosn. Some of the it was just, some of it wasn't

5. Tolerant society (again arguable...) As you say, arguably - other nations also had this.

 

Toggie, Toggie, Togster...The Toggmeister..

 

Where do I start?

 

1. When Britain was evolving Parliamentary Democracy New Zealand & Germany as seperate political entities did not even exist! In the case of NZ it was British democratic institutions that were exported there as part of the Empire, so to give NZ as an example is in fat saying that the British Empire was a good thing!

 

2. Yes, the enlightemnet was a European wide phenomenon, one which UK citizens were firmly at the front of.

 

4. Military success - sustained. See the British Empire.

 

5. Tolerance - ok, us and the Dutch.

[Boris]

But how are you going to represent all this throught the medium of dance?

 

:Hearts Man dance:

 

It's kind of dance...well, more theatre...

 

 

[pablo]

.... how will Britain demonstrate British culture and history in the opening cermeony and various other ways.....

 

By charging 40% tax on top of admission to events?

[The Vulture]

I just hope that the cockneys manage to get all the facilities built in time. If the same standard of project management is used to build the Olympic facilities than was used to build the new Wembley, well then will the stadium get built in time ?

 

Manchester showed how to put on an international sporting event, even though it was only the Commonwealth games.

 

Maybe the Olympics should have been shared to make it feel more British. For example have the mountain biking in Snowdonia or the Highlands, but then transport would have become an issue. Maybe to try and entice more 'locals' to the events they can give subsidised travel to all those going to watch any of the events so then it would maybe encourage those outside of London to come and give it a go.

[King of the North]

But how are you going to represent all this throught the medium of dance?

 

:Hearts Man dance:

 

You could start with a 'dance-off' between cavaliers and roundheads.

[Toggie88]

Toggie, Toggie, Togster...The Toggmeister..

 

Where do I start?

 

1. When Britain was evolving Parliamentary Democracy New Zealand & Germany as seperate political entities did not even exist! In the case of NZ it was British democratic institutions that were exported there as part of the Empire, so to give NZ as an example is in fat saying that the British Empire was a good thing!

 

I suppose it's what you can define as democratic. If you are referring to the Bill of Rights Act 1689, then that was solely an English venture. If you are reffering to the Acts of the 1800's they did inject a little bit more democratic means, but were still a long long way off democracy. Democracy wasn't fully achieved until women got the vote and the UK was well behind other nations on that. You could even argue that currently we are not a democratic as ultimate power lies with an unelected head of state.

 

2. Yes, the enlightemnet was a European wide phenomenon, one which UK citizens were firmly at the front of.

 

Yes, it's something to be proud of but not something that should be described as solely 'British'.

 

4. Military success - sustained. See the British Empire. I realise that this is a tricky rope I'm walking here but you could argue Hitler had success anexing czechoslovakia and France albeit it wasn't sustained. Franco, the Spanish fascist leader, had sustained military sucess. My point is not all military success should be celebrated.

 

5. Tolerance - ok, us and the Dutch.

With the amount of racist attacks on the streets of Scotland, and the UK can you say we are tolerant? What do you define as tolerant?

[pablo]

A fleet of Mini Coopers slaloming between red telephone boxes down a mock up of a 60's Carnaby Street. The Beatles Revolution playing through the PA.

 

It's what The World wants and expects:rolleyes:

[Boris]

A fleet of Mini Coopers slaloming between red telephone boxes down a mock up of a 60's Carnaby Street. The Beatles Revolution playing through the PA.

 

It's what The World wants and expects:rolleyes:

 

Yeah Baby!

 

It's my happening and it's freaking me out!

 

[felix]

London is completely disattached from noth only our country but also the rest of the UK. It's understandable why this happens, but it shouldn't be an excuse as to why this happens.

 

I honestly don't know how you can represent British Culture and British History. The former is a completely manufactured and there is no natural formation behind it. British History is another one, I can't think of many good examples of British history other than winning a war.

 

British Culture is manufactured over thousands of years; from cave dwellers in the outer hebrides through the development of the English language, via religion & monarchy, culture, arts, media, immigration, sport invasion, occupation.....

How you represent this in an Olympic Ceromony is beyond me - these events always manage to look embarassingly cheesy..

 

ps. I thought democracy had it's roots in Greece or Iraq and parliamntary democracy has a lot to thank the French for .

[Boris]

With the amount of racist attacks on the streets of Scotland, and the UK can you say we are tolerant? What do you define as tolerant?

 

Toggie, you know politics.

 

You must know that parliamentary democracy was born in the UK. The Bill of Rights was copied in Scotland by the Claim of Right Act 1689, so I don't get your point re the Bill of Rights. It wasn,t a modern democracy as we know it straight away, but it did lay the foundations (Mother of all Parliaments? Heard that phrase?) which were built on without need for revolution and was also exported globally as a concept of government. I could go off on a Marxist tangent and tell you no capitalist democracy is democratic, but that's not for now...

 

The Enlightenment - as I agreed with you, yes it was an European phenomenon (global as well if you count Mr Paine in America, although he was British...) but it doesn't take away from the fact that many of the star performers were British!

 

Re the military thing - My point is that we are usually the good guys and do it for the right reasons and when we do we usually end up on top.

 

As for tolerance - perhaps we are becoming more intolerant. The ravings of the red tops doesn't help, however why do you think so many people come and have came to the UK? Because it has a tradition as being an Island of Liberty.

Marx, Lenin are two famous emigres who have stayed in London whilst fleeing persecution at home.

 

Anyhoo, there you go.

[jamboinglasgow]

I do take your points though.

 

just to clear something up about the enlightenment. Yes there was an enlightenment movement in Europe that brought some great thinkers but in terms of the biggest changes Scotland produced them in the Scottish Enlightenment. Hume, Adam, Ferguson etc changed the thinking of the world and understanding of the world in huge ways. Thanks to these thinkers most of the ideas on the creation of america i.e. the consitution, law were formed. Other nations have used these thinkers ideas.

 

However though I would consider myself an unionist I do remember the words of my uni lecturer who taught me on the enlightenment and is one of the worlds foremost experts (Alexander Broadie) when he said that there was no English Enlightenment only one or two talented figures i.e. Issic Newton. It was only due to Scotland and thats why I think the olympics wouldn't incorparte that.

[Patrick Bateman]

British Culture is manufactured over thousands of years; from cave dwellers in the outer hebrides through the development of the English language, via religion & monarchy, culture, arts, media, immigration, sport invasion, occupation.....

How you represent this in an Olympic Ceromony is beyond me - these events always manage to look embarassingly cheesy..

 

ps. I thought democracy had it's roots in Greece or Iraq and parliamntary democracy has a lot to thank the French for .

 

 

Sorry, but "Britain" has only existed for 301 years. It has been manufactured since then. And before anyone tries pointing out the Roman name, the province ended at Hadrian's wall.

 

To answer your question, the Athenians were the first democracy from around 594BC onwards, with a few oligarchs here and there.

[Boris]

Sorry, but "Britain" has only existed for 301 years. It has been manufactured since then. And before anyone tries pointing out the Roman name, the province ended at Hadrian's wall.

 

To answer your question, the Athenians were the first democracy from around 594BC onwards, with a few oligarchs here and there.

 

As a political unit, you are correct. Brtain has only been in existance since 1707, however the term Great Britain was first used after the Union of the Crowns in 1603 so arguably another 104 years could be added to your score.

 

As aside, Aristotle deemed Democracy a bad form of government. Tyranny of the majority and all that.

[Patrick Bateman]

As aside, Aristotle deemed Democracy a bad form of government. Tyranny of the majority and all that.

 

Indeed, you could even argue that Athens wasn't a true democracy as metics, women and slaves couldn't vote. But we're getting horribly off-topic here...

 

 

The London Olympics will be a gargantuan waste of money which will not benefit anywhere in the UK outside of London.

[Boris]

Indeed, you could even argue that Athens wasn't a true democracy as metics, women and slaves couldn't vote. But we're getting horribly off-topic here...

 

 

The London Olympics will be a gargantuan waste of money which will not benefit anywhere in the UK outside of London.

 

Agreed!

 

Bloody Londonshire subsidy junkies.....

[Therapist]

Toggie, you know politics.

 

Boris, have you ever read any of the Togster's posts? :eek:

[Cobblers]

Maybe it's just me but I think the Olympics coming to the UK is a good thing and frankly London was the only UK city which was likely to win it. Others have tried and failed IIRC.

 

If it was Edinburgh that was hosting the games as capital of an independent Scotland I don't suppose people would be saying it shouldn't go ahead as it's no benefit to the rest of Scotland.

[felix]

Sorry, but "Britain" has only existed for 301 years. It has been manufactured since then. And before anyone tries pointing out the Roman name, the province ended at Hadrian's wall.

 

To answer your question, the Athenians were the first democracy from around 594BC onwards, with a few oligarchs here and there.

 

Can you explain how Britain's been "manufactured" since the Union and what you think it's been manufatured into.

 

You simply can't unpick the influence of Romans, Vikings , Saxons. Cusaders. Henry VIII, Shakespeare & Cromwell from todays Britain therefore it's too sweeping to say Britain didn't exist before 1707.

[Cobblers]

Perhaps he meant the United Kingdom, but I agree with your point.

[Patrick Bateman]

Can you explain how Britain's been "manufactured" since the Union and what you think it's been manufatured into.

 

You simply can't unpick the influence of Romans, Vikings , Saxons. Cusaders. Henry VIII, Shakespeare & Cromwell from todays Britain therefore it's too sweeping to say Britain didn't exist before 1707.

 

The idea of there being a unitary british race, culture, or social structure has just been illustrated by the first few empires/ethnic groups that you mentioned above. The Roman province of "Britain" ended at Hadrian's Wall. How much influence did Shakespeare have in Scotland? Very little I'd imagine. The fact that everything you mention there is Anglo-centric (aside from the Vikings) says a lot about Scotland (and Wales') standing in "Great Britain". England and Britain are virtually interchangeable for foreigners.

 

"Britishness" as a culture is largely "English" and before anyone says, I'm not discounting the economic, sporting or otherwise contribution from Scotland.

[Cobblers]

"Britishness" as a culture is largely "English" and before anyone says, I'm not discounting the economic, sporting or otherwise contribution from Scotland.

 

Perhaps that's because 90% of the population lives in England (and were once English)

[felix]

The idea of there being a unitary british race, culture, or social structure has just been illustrated by the first few empires/ethnic groups that you mentioned above. The Roman province of "Britain" ended at Hadrian's Wall. How much influence did Shakespeare have in Scotland? Very little I'd imagine. The fact that everything you mention there is Anglo-centric (aside from the Vikings) says a lot about Scotland (and Wales') standing in "Great Britain". England and Britain are virtually interchangeable for foreigners.

 

"Britishness" as a culture is largely "English" and before anyone says, I'm not discounting the economic, sporting or otherwise contribution from Scotland.

 

Like it or not; Shakespeare's had a huge influence in Scotland and around the world.

England and Britain may be interchangeable for some - but I'd argue only donuts would be confused - you've even got yourself in knots trying to differentiate Vikings Welsh & English.

We're one (or two) islands with a rich and varied history which definately pre-dates 1707

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

The idea of there being a unitary british race, culture, or social structure has just been illustrated by the first few empires/ethnic groups that you mentioned above. The Roman province of "Britain" ended at Hadrian's Wall. How much influence did Shakespeare have in Scotland? Very little I'd imagine. The fact that everything you mention there is Anglo-centric (aside from the Vikings) says a lot about Scotland (and Wales') standing in "Great Britain". England and Britain are virtually interchangeable for foreigners.

 

"Britishness" as a culture is largely "English" and before anyone says, I'm not discounting the economic, sporting or otherwise contribution from Scotland.

 

Er, go and explain the Antonine Wall then?

[Patrick Bateman]

Like it or not; Shakespeare's had a huge influence in Scotland and around the world.

England and Britain may be interchangeable for some - but I'd argue only donuts would be confused - you've even got yourself in knots trying to differentiate Vikings Welsh & English.

We're one (or two) islands with a rich and varied history which definately pre-dates 1707

 

Yes, I fully understand that history predates 1707 and that there is a historical relationship (given the geographical proximity) but you're missing my point. I didn't deny Shakespeare's influence, but to say it's influence in Scotland predated the union has no historical backing (as far as I'm aware).

 

Basically, I'm trying to establish what "Britishness" actually is and how many of the values are quintessentially "English"

 

Geoff - The Antonine wall was in use for around 36 years, Caledonia did not suddenly become Britain at that point. If the Romans wanted Caledonia, they could have taken it, pretty easily.

[Ulysses]

..... it is quite amazing that two wee islands off the North West coast of Europe came to "own" 1/4 of the Earth's land surface.

 

It certainly amazes most of the people I know.

 

It may be a paradox, but one of the defining features of "Britishness" is that it is so difficult to define. I think the reason why "Britishness" endures is because it is full of paradoxes, yet can accommodate them in a pragmatic way.

 

How you represent that in a song-and-dance routine at the Olympics is another matter.

[davemclaren]

It certainly amazes most of the people I know.

 

It may be a paradox, but one of the defining features of "Britishness" is that it is so difficult to define. I think the reason why "Britishness" endures is because it is full of paradoxes, yet can accommodate them in a pragmatic way.

 

How you represent that in a song-and-dance routine at the Olympics is another matter.

 

Morris dancers in kilts waving leeks about to the tune of Danny Boy....

[Ulysses]

Morris dancers in kilts waving leeks about to the tune of Danny Boy....

 

That's the American way.

[felix]

Yes, I fully understand that history predates 1707 and that there is a historical relationship (given the geographical proximity) but you're missing my point. I didn't deny Shakespeare's influence, but to say it's influence in Scotland predated the union has no historical backing (as far as I'm aware).

 

Basically, I'm trying to establish what "Britishness" actually is and how many of the values are quintessentially "English"

 

Geoff - The Antonine wall was in use for around 36 years, Caledonia did not suddenly become Britain at that point. If the Romans wanted Caledonia, they could have taken it, pretty easily.

 

I am missing your point.

If it's Britishness = Englishness then you're wrong .

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Geoff - The Antonine wall was in use for around 36 years, Caledonia did not suddenly become Britain at that point. If the Romans wanted Caledonia, they could have taken it, pretty easily.

 

Yep, they could have. They decided there wasn't any point even after winning at Mons Graupius, in the same way that Hibernia wasn't worth invading either.

 

My point is that Britannia is a Roman creation BUT the Romans influence spread, to a greater or lesser degree, throughout the whole island. Tacitus was the first person who named all the tribes of Britain and they show, for example, that Lothian had far more in common with Northumberland than any other part of Scotland.

[Jarhead]

Maybe it's just me but I think the Olympics coming to the UK is a good thing and frankly London was the only UK city which was likely to win it. Others have tried and failed IIRC.

 

If it was Edinburgh that was hosting the games as capital of an independent Scotland I don't suppose people would be saying it shouldn't go ahead as it's no benefit to the rest of Scotland.

 

This is correct. Britain tried to push Manchester and Birmingham as possible venues but were told by the Olympic Commitie not to come back unless it was London.

 

As for anyone saying Britain is "manufactured", then I would say, no more or less than any other country including Scotland.

[Jarhead]

By charging 40% tax on top of admission to events?

 

Plus 17.5% VAT on top of that charge.

[coppercrutch]

It is an interesting point the OP raises. I do think there is still a little fear for many people about being British and proud, or English for that matter. This seems a bit of a shame.

 

I remember watching a programme about the 'rebranding' of some area in London near the docks. They had this new effort to improve investment and people to move to the area etc...

 

Their 'brochure' on the area was filled with talk of diversity, multi culturalism etc...

 

That is all fine. However they basically erased the previous centuries of history. The part where predominately working class white folk worked their arses off to make this wee area into a thriving working environment.

 

There was a lot of serious anger at how this part of the areas history had been just 'left out' as they thought how many languages were spoken today was more important.

 

I found this one example a very good indicator of the overall problem we have in this country of being proud of who you are and where you came from. It seems some groups are 'allowed' to be proud of where they came from. Others are not. Does seem pretty sad and I reckon it plays the pivotal part in the rise in popularity of parties like the BNP.

 

I do think that when it comes to 2012 plenty of areas of our history will be conveniently forgotten about.