Oda and Tagawa Futures

[fila]

Tagawa needs offloaded , if he really showed anything to Naismith he would be involved. Oda , jury out for me 

[RustyRightPeg]

1 minute ago, fila said:

Tagawa needs offloaded , if he really showed anything to Naismith he would be involved. Oda , jury out for me 

 

What if he scores 3 in 3 over the next week?

[BackOfTheNet]

1 hour ago, RustyRightPeg said:

 

What if he scores 3 in 3 over the next week?

Then those writing him off will say the games were meaningless and one (or three) swallows don’t make a summer. For some reasons we have fans that like to write off players and will stick to that opinion regardless of what comes. Or at least stay silent until a bad thing happens and then come out and say “see, told you he was shite!” Just wait until Nieuwenhof has a bad couple of games getting back to match fitness, they’ll be back again.

[HopeDiouf]

12 minutes ago, BackOfTheNet said:

Then those writing him off will say the games were meaningless and one (or three) swallows don’t make a summer. For some reasons we have fans that like to write off players and will stick to that opinion regardless of what comes. Or at least stay silent until a bad thing happens and then come out and say “see, told you he was shite!” Just wait until Nieuwenhof has a bad couple of games getting back to match fitness, they’ll be back again.

If he scores 3 in 3 over the next week, I'll be delighted and it would show him contributing.

On the flip side, If he doesn't start next 3 weeks, would those who champion him admit it's not looking good?

[Pans Jambo]

I was one who didn't like what I was seeing from Nieuwenhof and thought he wasn't the standard we were needing; however, delighted he has changed my mind and I look forward to seeing a lot more of him next season. 

 

Oda has shown he has potential and I would keep him. 

 

Tagawa, sorry, just no. We need better if we are going to grow as a club. Just let it go lads eh?

[RustyRightPeg]

54 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

I was one who didn't like what I was seeing from Nieuwenhof and thought he wasn't the standard we were needing; however, delighted he has changed my mind and I look forward to seeing a lot more of him next season. 

 

Oda has shown he has potential and I would keep him. 

 

Tagawa, sorry, just no. We need better if we are going to grow as a club. Just let it go lads eh?

 

Why? What's the difference between Hoff & him?

[Pans Jambo]

51 minutes ago, RustyRightPeg said:

 

Why? What's the difference between Hoff & him?

A striker cannot hide. Midfielders can be covered by other midfielders/defenders and can be often be carried if they are in a good team. Tagawa's up front and is the main focus of the teams firepower (obviously goals can come from elsewhere in a team but a striker needs to be able to show he can convert when he gets, or makes chances). 

 

I'm not in any way disrespecting Tagawa, I'm simply pointing out that in my opinion, he's not good enough to play as the main attacking threat for Hearts. I think the club and our ambition is a level above his abilities.

 

I just want better players at Hearts.

 

 

[RustyRightPeg]

10 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

A striker cannot hide. Midfielders can be covered by other midfielders/defenders and can be often be carried if they are in a good team. Tagawa's up front and is the main focus of the teams firepower (obviously goals can come from elsewhere in a team but a striker needs to be able to show he can convert when he gets, or makes chances). 

 

I'm not in any way disrespecting Tagawa, I'm simply pointing out that in my opinion, he's not good enough to play as the main attacking threat for Hearts. I think the club and our ambition is a level above his abilities.

 

I just want better players at Hearts.

 

 

 

A centre midfielder can do a lot more hiding than a striker, IMO. I've seen plenty doing so over the years. Those who look like they want the ball but they're running into areas they can't receive it.

 

I just want to know why Hoff gets a pass, when he'd played more minutes than Tagawa has all season, a month into the season. I'm not downplaying your opinion, just asking why you see the situation different from one to another.

[BackOfTheNet]

2 hours ago, HopeDiouf said:

If he scores 3 in 3 over the next week, I'll be delighted and it would show him contributing.

On the flip side, If he doesn't start next 3 weeks, would those who champion him admit it's not looking good?

Have already said that although I see a player there and wish we’d try and play to his strengths, that it’s evident we won’t and the fact he doesn’t play looks like he’s off. But on the flip side of that, it doesn’t mean he’s shite if he’s not getting a game.
 

And if he leaves in the summer not playing much more than he has, then that means we will never be able to judge for ourselves of his quality. Conclusively at least. We’d just have to take him not being picked as he’s not good enough, but there’s a difference between not being good enough and being on the bench behind the Scottish Premiership player of the season who also happens to be our captain and hates not playing 90 minutes.

[Pans Jambo]

21 minutes ago, RustyRightPeg said:

 

A centre midfielder can do a lot more hiding than a striker, IMO. I've seen plenty doing so over the years. Those who look like they want the ball but they're running into areas they can't receive it.

 

I just want to know why Hoff gets a pass, when he'd played more minutes than Tagawa has all season, a month into the season. I'm not downplaying your opinion, just asking why you see the situation different from one to another.

I've seen enough mate. As I said, just my opinion but I don't think he's what we need if we want to get incrementally better each season. We have had Naismith, Lafferty, Boyce, Washington, Simms, Ginnelly, Shankland etc. I want more of that type of player at Hearts.

 

Edit: I wont be upset if he stays. I will be pissed off if Shanks leaves and we are left with Oda and Tagawa as our forward line next season!

Edited May 9 by Pans Jambo

[BackOfTheNet]

8 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

I've seen enough mate. As I said, just my opinion but I don't think he's what we need if we want to get incrementally better each season. We have had Naismith, Lafferty, Boyce, Washington, Simms, Ginnelly, Shankland etc. I want more of that type of player at Hearts.

 

Edit: I wont be upset if he stays. I will be pissed off if Shanks leaves and we are left with Oda and Tagawa as our forward line next season!

But you just said in your earlier post you’d written Nieuwenhof off, I’m sure you thought you had seen enough when you did so. So why write a player off you’ve likely seen less than when you wrote Nieuwenhoff off?

[queensferryjambo]

On paper Tagawa should have been a much better player for us, he has International caps for Japan and has scored at International level. 

 

It just hasn't worked out for Tagawa so far, I really hope he settles in and has a good end to the season / next season. 

[Pans Jambo]

9 minutes ago, BackOfTheNet said:

But you just said in your earlier post you’d written Nieuwenhof off, I’m sure you thought you had seen enough when you did so. So why write a player off you’ve likely seen less than when you wrote Nieuwenhoff off?

I didnt write Niewenhoff off. I seen some

decent play from him in some games but then the very next week, I thought he wouldnt make it. I was wrong, admitted it and was glad to be proven incorrect as he grew as the season progressed.
Tagawa is a different story altogether. Hes never shown us anything. 

Do you think he will be a prominent striker at Hearts?

[BackOfTheNet]

2 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

I didnt write Niewenhoff off. I seen some

decent play from him in some games but then the very next week, I thought he wouldnt make it. I was wrong, admitted it and was glad to be proven incorrect as he grew as the season progressed.
Tagawa is a different story altogether. Hes never shown us anything. 

Do you think he will be a prominent striker at Hearts?

Well Nieuwehof had played more minutes than Tagawa has all season by the beginning of November, so at what point had Nieuwenhof turned you around?

 

I don’t know if Tagawa will be a prominent striker at Hearts, based on his lack of play I don’t think he will. You could also say based on our style of play being honed to Shankland’s strengths and Tagawa being a completely different style of player, that unless Shankland leaves or we change how we play then it’s unlikely.

 

But I can’t say based on the amount of minutes he’s been on the pitch whether he could or couldn’t. None of us can. He’s hardly played and when he has he’s been out wide he’s been up top with Shankland behind, he’s been one of a two, he’s been in behind. He’s not consistently played (like Nieuwenhof had been when people were wanting rid) and never had a 90 minutes. So it doesn’t matter what anyone thinks, based on what anyone other than those on the training ground have seen, no one can know one way or another.

[RustyRightPeg]

1 hour ago, Pans Jambo said:

I've seen enough mate. As I said, just my opinion but I don't think he's what we need if we want to get incrementally better each season. We have had Naismith, Lafferty, Boyce, Washington, Simms, Ginnelly, Shankland etc. I want more of that type of player at Hearts.

 

Edit: I wont be upset if he stays. I will be pissed off if Shanks leaves and we are left with Oda and Tagawa as our forward line next season!

And why would you think we’d go into next season with only Oda and Tagawa? 
 

We can sign players!

[Cruickie's Moustache]

While the likes Shankland, Clark and Gordon will be looking to impress Clarke for the Euros, the pressure is really off for the rest of the club.

I'd happily have Naismith say to Tagawa, I'm giving you a start in next three games. Just try and relax and have fun and show me what you've got.

 

We know what everyone else can do as Oda, Vargas & Forrest have all had plenty game time and have their contracts sorted out.

So what harm in giving the lad a decent run out to see if he has something to offer?

Edited May 9 by Cruickie's Moustache

[Pans Jambo]

56 minutes ago, RustyRightPeg said:

And why would you think we’d go into next season with only Oda and Tagawa? 
 

We can sign players!

Indeed. And I hope we do. Better quality players. 

[gordon simpson]

4 hours ago, RustyRightPeg said:

 

Why? What's the difference between Hoff & him?

exactly:- we sure have some zoomers in our fan base 

[Pans Jambo]

1 hour ago, gordon simpson said:

exactly:- we sure have some zoomers in our fan base 

By ‘zoomer’ you mean someone with a different opinion than yours?

 

Nice. 

[gordon simpson]

38 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

By ‘zoomer’ you mean someone with a different opinion than yours?

 

Nice. 

naw I mean Zoomer 

[HopeDiouf]

14 hours ago, BackOfTheNet said:

Have already said that although I see a player there and wish we’d try and play to his strengths, that it’s evident we won’t and the fact he doesn’t play looks like he’s off. But on the flip side of that, it doesn’t mean he’s shite if he’s not getting a game.
 

And if he leaves in the summer not playing much more than he has, then that means we will never be able to judge for ourselves of his quality. Conclusively at least. We’d just have to take him not being picked as he’s not good enough, but there’s a difference between not being good enough and being on the bench behind the Scottish Premiership player of the season who also happens to be our captain and hates not playing 90 minutes.

Fair enough.  For me, I'm happy enough to trust our coaching staff, plus the fact he's done nothing much with the chances he has had.  Football is a very harsh sport - very few players get gifted opportunities if they aren't performing.  If he gets opportunities these next 3 games, it's up to him to make something happen - no excuses

[Drylaw Hearts]

Not at that bothered about Oda……we need much better imo.

 

Tagiwa has been absolutely rotten and will be punted.

[Life Aquatic]

Whoever we replace Tagawa with needs a name that fits his song... 

 

Dada dada da da da... TAGAWA! 

 

See if Mateta at Palace is available

[Bongo 1874]

I tell you, you would need to be a very good striker to get a game infront of Shankland.

 

Common sense tells you that.

 

But Tagawa is shit 😒. 

 

Feck me.

[HopeDiouf]

4 minutes ago, Bongo 1874 said:

I tell you, you would need to be a very good striker to get a game infront of Shankland.

 

Common sense tells you that.

 

But Tagawa is shit 😒. 

 

Feck me.

Boyce had no issues getting game time.  Neither does Vargas.  He hasn't been picked much cause the management decided other players were a better option.  They might be wrong, but I'm happy to trust their judgement.

Edited May 10 by HopeDiouf

[Bongo 1874]

3 minutes ago, HopeDiouf said:

Boyce had no issues getting game time.  Neither does Vargas.  He hasn't been picked much cause the manager decided other players were a better option.  They might be wrong, but I'm happy to trust their judgement.

Tagawa is a central striker.

 

He has played outwide a few times.

 

The guy who is Scotland’s player of the season,and our player of the season. 

 

Plays central.

 

Could it be that Shankland,being so good has kept him out the team mate 🤔.

Edited May 10 by Bongo 1874

[TexasAndy]

Really like Oda and think he will be big for us over next couple of seasons, pace and an eye for goal = good combo.  Tagawa has just not settled here.  seen enough in the fleeting moments to suggest he's a decent player but it's either a bad first season but will kick on or he's just not cut out for Scottish football.  He wouldn't be the first player to confound the experts.

[HopeDiouf]

5 minutes ago, Bongo 1874 said:

Tagawa is a central striker.

 

He has played outwide a few times.

 

The guy who is Scotland’s player of the season,and our player of the season. 

 

Plays central.

 

Could it be that Shankland,being so good has kept him out the team mate 🤔.

it could be, but if that were the case you'd expect him to play when Shankland was out.  Instead, he and James Wilson got 45 minutes each against Spartans, and he didn't get picked v St Mirren.

And that doesn't explain how Vargas and Boyce managed to get game time no probs, despite Shankland being in the team as well?

[jamboinglasgow]

30 minutes ago, HopeDiouf said:

Boyce had no issues getting game time.  Neither does Vargas.  He hasn't been picked much cause the management decided other players were a better option.  They might be wrong, but I'm happy to trust their judgement.

 

Boyce plays as a number 10. Vargas is often played on the wing. Neither are getting picked ahead of Shankland either.

[HopeDiouf]

4 minutes ago, jamboinglasgow said:

 

Boyce plays as a number 10. Vargas is often played on the wing. Neither are getting picked ahead of Shankland either.

But both getting picked which is the key point.  Both have played up top beside Shankland, and both have had no issues getting gametime.  Vargas in particular has pretty much played the pacy striker beside Shanks role at times, which seems to be the role that Tagawa would want if he could chose.

Edited May 10 by HopeDiouf

[Carter]

Would be nice to see Tagawa get on the pitch and receive a decent pass.

[Chimp]

9 minutes ago, Carter said:

Would be nice to see Tagawa get on the pitch and receive a decent pass.

 

Yep. Also be nice to hear the crowd get behind him and give him a lift, instead of groans and sighs any time something doesn't quite come off for him. Could make a world of difference.

[HopeDiouf]

3 minutes ago, Chimp said:

 

Yep. Also be nice to hear the crowd get behind him and give him a lift, instead of groans and sighs any time something doesn't quite come off for him. Could make a world of difference.

Like singing the Tequila song non-stop every time he's on the pitch?  He's had it relatively good from the fans, in comparison to the stick some past players have had.

[Ally]

2 minutes ago, Chimp said:

 

Yep. Also be nice to hear the crowd get behind him and give him a lift, instead of groans and sighs any time something doesn't quite come off for him. Could make a world of difference.

I get what you mean, but he has had a great song sung for him on several occasions!

 

I feel like we all want him to do well, but we need to see something from him in a maroon shirt to suggest he has what it takes. Sure, he's scored goals in other leagues, but in the chances he's had so far here, he hasn't really shown that he is up for it. I really hope he proves me wrong and nets a hat-trick tomorrow!

[Carter]

11 minutes ago, Chimp said:

 

Yep. Also be nice to hear the crowd get behind him and give him a lift, instead of groans and sighs any time something doesn't quite come off for him. Could make a world of difference.

When you watch the lad, the way he moves etc. You can see he's got something about him. 

 

That dreadful team performance against Huns at Tynecastle earlier this season when he started, I actually thought he did reasonably well that night. You don't get capped for Japan and do reasonably well in Portugal if you're a dud.

 

He's clearly not a dud. Hasn't worked out so far but hopefully that can change. Suspect he'll be away though.

[Chimp]

10 minutes ago, HopeDiouf said:

Like singing the Tequila song non-stop every time he's on the pitch?  He's had it relatively good from the fans, in comparison to the stick some past players have had.

 

I take it you don't hear the moans and groans then? He has a song because it's catchy and the ultras especially love signing it for that reason.

[HopeDiouf]

6 minutes ago, Carter said:

When you watch the lad, the way he moves etc. You can see he's got something about him. 

 

That dreadful team performance against Huns at Tynecastle earlier this season when he started, I actually thought he did reasonably well that night. You don't get capped for Japan and do reasonably well in Portugal if you're a dud.

 

He's clearly not a dud. Hasn't worked out so far but hopefully that can change. Suspect he'll be away though.

Evidently 1 cap for Japan and 7 goals in 2 seasons in Portugal does not mean you are a world beater either.

Edited May 10 by HopeDiouf

[Chimp]

12 minutes ago, Ally said:

I get what you mean, but he has had a great song sung for him on several occasions!

 

I feel like we all want him to do well, but we need to see something from him in a maroon shirt to suggest he has what it takes. Sure, he's scored goals in other leagues, but in the chances he's had so far here, he hasn't really shown that he is up for it. I really hope he proves me wrong and nets a hat-trick tomorrow!

 

Yes it's sung because it's catchy and the crowd are desperate to use it for that reason. Not because they're trying to get behind Tagawa, don't buy that for a minute. I mean get behind him with applause and encouragement instead of the groans over the smallest thing.

[Chimp]

3 minutes ago, Carter said:

When you watch the lad, the way he moves etc. You can see he's got something about him. 

 

That dreadful team performance against Huns at Tynecastle earlier this season when he started, I actually thought he did reasonably well that night. You don't get capped for Japan and do reasonably well in Portugal if you're a dud.

 

He's clearly not a dud. Hasn't worked out so far but hopefully that can change. Suspect he'll be away though.

 

Agree.

[HopeDiouf]

1 minute ago, Chimp said:

 

I take it you don't hear the moans and groans then? He has a song because it's catchy and the ultras especially love signing it for that reason.

No more than any other player, for me.

[Ally]

2 minutes ago, Chimp said:

 

Yes it's sung because it's catchy and the crowd are desperate to use it for that reason. Not because they're trying to get behind Tagawa, don't buy that for a minute. I mean get behind him with applause and encouragement instead of the groans over the smallest thing.

Okay mate, we'll agree to disagree on this one.

[Chimp]

19 minutes ago, HopeDiouf said:

Evidently 1 cap for Japan and 9 goals in 2 seasons in Portugal does not mean you are a world beater either.

 

Who the hell suggested he's a world beater? Your agenda against the guy is so strong so you're now making things up.

 

He hasn't done great and could have done better so far but as I've said many times there are other factors in which you have to consider as a possible reason for this. Your absolute determination to want this guy to fail is next level. You're absolutely champing at the bit to see him leave in the summer so you can smugly tell everyone how right you were all along that's he's crap. 

 

As Naismith has said himself  -  "For Kyosuke, this season was always going to be difficult. The physicality and the speed of the game have shown up. In some games I think Kyosuke has shown up well but he has been kept out of the team. Shanks has shown so much form and even when [Liam] Boycie was playing he was doing really well.

"There are wee moments which haven't fell for him. The ball has hit the post or just gone past the post, he hasn't had that wee rub of the green. Those small moments can start you off. He maybe needed one to just go in off his shin to set him off and then he could keep going. That hasn't happened but I think he has qualities so we will see how pre-season plays out.”

 

Why not be a bit more optimistic and see how he does with a few more minutes this season and a good pre season under his belt instead of constantly slating him at every opportunity?  

Edited May 10 by Chimp

[HopeDiouf]

2 minutes ago, Chimp said:

 

Who the hell suggested he's a a world beater? Your agenda against the guy is so strong so you're now making things up.

 

He hasn't done great and could have done better so far but as I've said many times there are other factors in which you have to consider as a possible reason for this. Your absolute determination to want this guy to fail is next level. You're absolutely champing at the bit to see him leave in the summer so you can smugly tell everyone how right you were all along that's he's crap. 

 

As Naismith has said himself  -  "For Kyosuke, this season was always going to be difficult. The physicality and the speed of the game have shown up. In some games I think Kyosuke has shown up well but he has been kept out of the team. Shanks has shown so much form and even when [Liam] Boycie was playing he was doing really well.

"There are wee moments which haven't fell for him. The ball has hit the post or just gone past the post, he hasn't had that wee rub of the green. Those small moments can start you off. He maybe needed one to just go in off his shin to set him off and then he could keep going. That hasn't happened but I think he has qualities so we will see how pre-season plays out.”

 

Why not be a bit more optimistic and see how he does with a few more minutes this season and a good pre season under his belt instead of constantly slating him at every opportunity?  

If you want to go with blind optimism, thats your choice.  If he gets himself into the team and does well I'll be delighted.  But I'm not sitting here pretending he's done well so far or has lived up to expectations.  He's been poor so far for Hearts.

[Carter]

22 minutes ago, HopeDiouf said:

Evidently 1 cap for Japan and 7 goals in 2 seasons in Portugal does not mean you are a world beater either.

Not suggesting he's a world beater. Just think he has more than enough to make an impact at our level. 

 

There is a danger we've created a style of play primarily to suit a single player. I can understand why that could've happened but it is also a barrier for others to try an make an impact. 

[Chimp]

1 minute ago, HopeDiouf said:

If you want to go with blind optimism, thats your choice.  If he gets himself into the team and does well I'll be delighted.  But I'm not sitting here pretending he's done well so far or has lived up to expectations.  He's been poor so far for Hearts.

 

It's not blind optimism though. Strange our manager sees enough to be optimistic eh? 

 

I've said countless times the reasons I'm optimistic but ignore that if you like. 

 

I'm not pretending he's done well either as I've stated in my previous post.

[HopeDiouf]

Just now, Carter said:

Not suggesting he's a world beater. Just think he has more than enough to make an impact at our level. 

 

There is a danger we've created a style of play primarily to suit a single player. I can understand why that could've happened but it is also a barrier for others to try an make an impact. 

Possibly true we don't suit him.  But you have to adapt and find a way to get involved in the game.  He's not really managed to do that it seems.

[HopeDiouf]

Just now, Chimp said:

 

It's not blind optimism though. Strange our manager sees enough to be optimistic eh? 

 

I've said countless times the reasons I'm optimistic but ignore that if you like. 

 

I'm not pretending he's done well either as I've stated in my previous post.

I think what our manager says in the papers is trumped by the team he picks.  He's hardly going to say "he's shit" if we're trying to punt him.

[Carter]

3 minutes ago, HopeDiouf said:

Possibly true we don't suit him.  But you have to adapt and find a way to get involved in the game.  He's not really managed to do that it seems.

Hard to get involved in the game when your sat on the bench though. We also have to consider what happens in life beyond Shankland. I can see us look a very different proposition. His goal contribution has been phenomenal but we're also quite easy to defend against as we become very laboured. Noticeable against better opposition and has been for some time. 

[BackOfTheNet]

4 hours ago, HopeDiouf said:

Fair enough.  For me, I'm happy enough to trust our coaching staff, plus the fact he's done nothing much with the chances he has had.  Football is a very harsh sport - very few players get gifted opportunities if they aren't performing.  If he gets opportunities these next 3 games, it's up to him to make something happen - no excuses

See, that’s where we differ. I remember the myth of £15k per week Ibrahim Tall not getting a game for months, then looking shaky when he came in, and then looking brilliant after a bit. I remember Rais M’bolhi never getting a game for us but going on to win AFCON. I remember as recently as the start of this season as Niuewenhoff was written off as “another project player”.

 

So whether players play minimal minutes or don’t play at all, doesn’t necessarily mean they’re crap. And I’d like time to judge for myself. If I can’t, then fair enough. We have to assume the coaching staff had their reasons for not playing him, but based on the little I’ve seen of him - especially given his pedigree - I’m not prepared to have a conclusive opinion on him one way or another yet.

[Chimp]

4 minutes ago, Carter said:

Not suggesting he's a world beater. Just think he has more than enough to make an impact at our level. 

 

There is a danger we've created a style of play primarily to suit a single player. I can understand why that could've happened but it is also a barrier for others to try an make an impact. 

 

Some of our fans are in for a shock when/if Shankland leaves. We are unlikely to get a carbon copy of that sort of player and depending on who we sign we might change our whole formation and gameplay completely. Like you say it's currently all to suit one player. Next season everything could change. You also have intelligent creative players like Spittal and Dhanda coming in who may compliment Tagawa's style of play perfectly. We still need another striker either way in the summer,  but he might well have a part to play.