Willie Johnston v Davie Proven (Recollections?)

[Morgan]

6 hours ago, John Findlay said:

There was also Annfield, Stirling Albion's old ground.

I don’t know that story, John.

 

My Arbroath one involved a keg of beer and a plastic comb.

 

Don’t ask!  😳

[Morgan]

13 hours ago, N Lincs Jambo said:

 

First time I ever saw the guy was a pre-season friendly, early 80s evening game. He stood a few feet in front of me behind the goal at the School End (can't remember a dog at that game) wearing a T shirt with "Long Kesh - Imprisoned for Loyalty" on it.

 

Can only say it made an impression on a very young NLJ at the time. As I said I didn't know him but I made a judgment pretty early on, rightly or wrongly, that he wasn't to be messed with. 

Your judgement is understandable.

 

Many folk formed the same opinion, although it has to be said, he was no angel.

 

I’m certain he started a Hearts bus called ‘Sons of William’ or something along these lines.   

 

 

[martoon]

27 minutes ago, Morgan said:

Your judgement is understandable.

 

Many folk formed the same opinion, although it has to be said, he was no angel.

 

I’m certain he started a Hearts bus called ‘Sons of William’ or something along these lines.   

 

 

 

Wallace Mercer threatened to withdraw ticket allocations if they kept the name, iirc.

 

I think he ended up banning Bernie but it may have been lifted since.

 

 

[John Findlay]

1 hour ago, Morgan said:

I don’t know that story, John.

 

My Arbroath one involved a keg of beer and a plastic comb.

 

Don’t ask!  😳

It involves sticking the heid on a police inspector.

[dannymack]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Rupert Custard]

I remember 2 cops walking the track offered statements that there was no contact between Bud and Provan. Which goes against Buds admission of a ‘playful slap’ but suggests any contact was not enough to have Provan prostrate on the ground.

 

Having had dealings with Provan after his retirement I am in no doubt he was capable of this cheating behaviour. 

[dannymack]

1 hour ago, martoon said:

 

Wallace Mercer threatened to withdraw ticket allocations if they kept the name, iirc.

 

I think he ended up banning Bernie but it may have been lifted since.

 

 

 

The Gorgie Sons of William III

[4marsbars]

Unusually, I was in the stand, almost exactly where the incident took place.

 

My clear recollection is that Johnston did indeed follow-through and made contact with Provan's face. Provan undoubtedly made the most of it.

 

If the ref had given Hearts a free-kick for McGrain's (literally) career-ending challenge there would have been no throw-in and no follow-through. A great pity that Shields wasn't sent off earlier. Such a promising young player.

[HMFC 86]

23 hours ago, Sir PH said:

No. That was Kevin O'Donnell, in 1987.

Remember that cheating b. Mercer put an end to him

[Sir PH]

18 minutes ago, HMFC 86 said:

Remember that cheating b. Mercer put an end to him

Yip. He never refereed in the top flight again. 

[dannymack]

5 hours ago, 4marsbars said:

Unusually, I was in the stand, almost exactly where the incident took place.

 

My clear recollection is that Johnston did indeed follow-through and made contact with Provan's face. Provan undoubtedly made the most of it.

 

If the ref had given Hearts a free-kick for McGrain's (literally) career-ending challenge there would have been no throw-in and no follow-through. A great pity that Shields wasn't sent off earlier. Such a promising young player.

So Willie Johnstone was lying then ? 

 

 

[4marsbars]

8 hours ago, dannymack said:

So Willie Johnstone was lying then ? 

 

 

 

About what? If he denied touching Provan, he was wrong.

 

Do I call him a liar? What kind of a question is that? Footballers deceive all the time. They falsely claim for corners, throw-ins, hand-balls / penalties. They simulate / dive. They constantly try to fool the ref.

 

And if in the wrong, it's "Who me? I never touched him."

 

You want me to call this "lying"? No. It's part of the grand pantomime we call football. Oh, yes it is.

 

Or I might reply, "are you calling me a liar?" 

 

There was contact. I was well-placed and I saw it. 

[4marsbars]

 

Furthermore. Imagine a world where footballers (or participants in any sport) were reliably, 100% honest.

 

We could do away with VAR.

 

A potential handball? Just ask the player 'did you touch the ball with your hand just there, and would you say you were in the box at the time?' 

 

A player appears to dive. Just ask him 'was there contact?'

 

No more fancy camera-work. Just ask 'were you offside?'

 

The ball goes out following a tackle where both men kicked the ball almost at the same time. Just ask them both 'who was the last to kick it?' Because both players are completely honest, they would say the same thing.

 

In fact, we could do away with referees and their assistants.

 

Worth a try?

 

In the wider world, we could do away with barrier checks at stations and we could have self-service cash tills in supermarkets. Put in your twenty pound note and help yourself to the right change.

 

[GlasgoJambo]

Enjoyed reading these memories - a few years before I started going to games.

Stand out thing however is that some boy used to take his dug to football games - presumably it helped with the threatening character.
I thought alsatian was a typo or a euphemism for something else when the first person mentioned it on here 🤣

[Sir PH]

22 minutes ago, 4marsbars said:

 

Furthermore. Imagine a world where footballers (or participants in any sport) were reliably, 100% honest.

 

We could do away with VAR.

 

A potential handball? Just ask the player 'did you touch the ball with your hand just there, and would you say you were in the box at the time?' 

 

A player appears to dive. Just ask him 'was there contact?'

 

No more fancy camera-work. Just ask 'were you offside?'

 

The ball goes out following a tackle where both men kicked the ball almost at the same time. Just ask them both 'who was the last to kick it?' Because both players are completely honest, they would say the same thing.

 

In fact, we could do away with referees and their assistants.

 

Worth a try?

 

In the wider world, we could do away with barrier checks at stations and we could have self-service cash tills in supermarkets. Put in your twenty pound note and help yourself to the right change.

 

How would a player know if he was offside? 

[4marsbars]

21 minutes ago, Sir PH said:

How would a player know if he was offside? 

 

HIs impeccable honesty would ensure that he would be making sure he was onside in the build-up.

 

[dannymack]

1 hour ago, 4marsbars said:

 

About what? If he denied touching Provan, he was wrong.

 

Do I call him a liar? What kind of a question is that? Footballers deceive all the time. They falsely claim for corners, throw-ins, hand-balls / penalties. They simulate / dive. They constantly try to fool the ref.

 

And if in the wrong, it's "Who me? I never touched him."

 

You want me to call this "lying"? No. It's part of the grand pantomime we call football. Oh, yes it is.

 

Or I might reply, "are you calling me a liar?" 

 

There was contact. I was well-placed and I saw it. 

 

It's a simple question to ask as Heart of Midlothian FC went to great lengths to protect Willie Johnstone and appeal/question the red card. 

 

You appear to be going on the defensive with my response there's absolutely no need. 

 

Anyway if you don't mind me asking, why were you sitting in and amongst that home support ? 

Plenty room in the Hearts end. 

 

[Sir PH]

44 minutes ago, 4marsbars said:

 

HIs impeccable honesty would ensure that he would be making sure he was onside in the build-up.

 

He would need eyes on the back of his head.

[The Old Tolbooth]

On 23/04/2024 at 21:03, Sir PH said:

No. That was Kevin O'Donnell, in 1987.

Ah that’s the one, cheers 👍

[4marsbars]

2 hours ago, dannymack said:

 

Anyway if you don't mind me asking, why were you sitting in and amongst that home support ? 

Plenty room in the Hearts end. 

 

 

In those days (younger readers may not know this) segregation only applied to the terracing. If you wanted a seat in the stand, there the crowd would be mixed (though with a good deal more Celtic fans). I hardly ever went to the stand but went to that game with an uncle who insisted on paying me in.

 

Sorry if I came across as defensive. I saw what I saw, and I remember (imperfectly).

 

[jambos are go!]

This topic comes every couple of years. As someone who was at the game let reiterate my recollection

I did not see the Proven/Johnston incident so cannot comment. I was watching activity at the dug outs as was the main stand side Linesman when a roar went up. In my opinion he did not see the incident as he asserted.

On the Peter Shield incident McGrain retaliated after a disgraceful tackle on him by Shields a few minutes earlier.

[cookieboy]

On 24/04/2024 at 16:17, Rupert Custard said:

I remember 2 cops walking the track offered statements that there was no contact between Bud and Provan. Which goes against Buds admission of a ‘playful slap’ but suggests any contact was not enough to have Provan prostrate on the ground.

 

Having had dealings with Provan after his retirement I am in no doubt he was capable of this cheating behaviour. 

tell more please

[Bull's-eye]

Back in those days you got off very lightly if all you got was spat at, at Celtic Park.

[Tiro]

53 minutes ago, Bull's-eye said:

Back in those days you got off very lightly if all you got was spat at, at Celtic Park.

Worst trouble was after the game that Kevin O'Donnell denied Hearts two stone wall penalties, a performance that saw him removed from the Grade ,1 list. During the game Hearts supporters charged the Celtic supporters and the police intervened. The ill feeling increased and exploded again when Celtic scored with two minutes left. At full time there were further clashes on the Waste ground on which the Hearts buses were parked. Fearing damage the vast majority of the  bus drivers drove off . The area was very poorly lit and there were no police in attendance as they were attending fights in London Road. Trouble continued for around 15 minutes until finally police horses arrived. Supporters were then forced onto buses by the police and it didn't matter whether or not it was the bus that you had arrived on

[Sir PH]

3 minutes ago, Tiro said:

Worst trouble was after the game that Kevin O'Donnell denied Hearts two stone wall penalties, a performance that saw him removed from the Grade ,1 list. During the game Hearts supporters charged the Celtic supporters and the police intervened. The ill feeling increased and exploded again when Celtic scored with two minutes left. At full time there were further clashes on the Waste ground on which the Hearts buses were parked. Fearing damage the vast majority of the  bus drivers drove off . The area was very poorly lit and there were no police in attendance as they were attending fights in London Road. Trouble continued for around 15 minutes until finally police horses arrived. Supporters were then forced onto buses by the police and it didn't matter whether or not it was the bus that you had arrived on

I had a lovely walk back to Bridgeton Station. 16 years old, scarf up the jumper and walked as fast as I could, avoiding eye contact with any Celtic fan. 

[Tiro]

40 minutes ago, Sir PH said:

I had a lovely walk back to Bridgeton Station. 16 years old, scarf up the jumper and walked as fast as I could, avoiding eye contact with any Celtic fan. 

That was the night that my dislike for Celtic surpassed my dislike for Rangers and nothing since has changed my view

[Hmfc1965]

1 hour ago, Tiro said:

That was the night that my dislike for Celtic surpassed my dislike for Rangers and nothing since has changed my view

No but some on here will overlook that.

[wentworth jambo]

Willie Johnston v Celtic and no-one has mentioned this yet.....

 

[4marsbars]

On 25/04/2024 at 01:00, dannymack said:

So Willie Johnstone was lying then ? 

 

 

 

Danny, forgive me, a second answer to your question.

 

I skim-read several of the newspaper clippings, where the term used was Johnston had 'followed through' after a throw-in. As my post made clear, that was also what I saw.

 

I hadn't noticed the quote from Johnston that it was just a 'playful slap'! Had I noticed that, I would have said that he was absolutely telling the truth. His follow-through was, exactly, a playful slap. Certainly not a head-butt as the ref signalled at the time (then later retracted).

 

The thing is, I don't think that the laws of the game allow footballers to slap each other in the face, playfully or otherwise. Was / is it a sending off offence (then or now)? Probably.

 

The fact that Provan went down as if hit by a train, and the length of time it took for him to recover, was beyond pathetic. For many of us, that is the first and only thing we remember about him. But maybe it had a bearing on us getting the 'consolation prize' of John Colquhoun, the best Hearts winger most of us have ever seen, when we subsequently went shopping for wingers at Parkhead. It's funny how things work out.

 

[4marsbars]

4 minutes ago, wentworth jambo said:

Willie Johnston v Celtic and no-one has mentioned this yet.....

 

 

Remember it well. 

[the posh bit]

First visit to Parkhead that day. It was utter carnage from h/t onwards and pretty much wrote the script for the next 4 or 5 years through there, some of which we came off better than others. On that day though, the Hearts support took no shite. 

 

And Provan was a diving *******.