Naismith/McAvoy/Forrest confirmed as management team - contracted to 2025 (title updated)

[Sertse]

2 minutes ago, hughesie27 said:

 

 

Astounding people are falling for this.

At the very minimum the club is actively lying to the fans, at worst he is actually the manager but we got sold that Naismith would be in charge. You've not got a problem with either scenario?

[Saint Jambo]

1 minute ago, hughesie27 said:

 

 

Astounding people are falling for this.

 

So why do you think the club have decided to lie to the fans in this fashion? He had the option of saying the three of them would work together as a team or their ways of working would remain private. A vague answer that kept everyone happy. Why lie? The reaction is totally predictable.

[Pasquale for King]

Can we change the thread title, in case Uefa is watching 🤦🏽. 

[hughesie27]

Just now, Naisys Tackle said:

And you no for sure do you?   Everyone at the clubs lying just for the sake of avoiding a fine?  Reputations and credibility being risked for some cash?

 

Tin pot.  

Debate the optics of the charade all day. But if you think anyone other than Naismith is picking the final team each week then I have a bridge to sell you.

[Dennis Reynolds]

All this for a guy with seven games under his belt

 

There wasn't a single candidate in world football better? Do me a favour.

[Niemi’s gloves]

If my memory serves me right, the B team had one of its best wins and best performances of last season when McAvoy was left in charge (when Naismith was on Scotland duty). But some on here write him off as a “fat slob”. 

[DC_92]

36 minutes ago, Bob Loblaw said:

It's not a great look, and even as a smokescreen it looks silly, but folk aren't actually convincing themselves McAvoy is genuinely the man in charge are they? 

 

There's a reason we've avoided any communications after announcing a manager and it's because they don't know how to handle it publicly. 

 

In the press release announcing the team we directly said Naismith was appointed as technical director purely to comply with Uefa regulations.  He's in charge but it's being handled terribly.

 

 

I can't speak for others, but I mentioned that possibility because my point was that it isn't a rationally justifiable position for us to put forward in public, given he was assistant to Naismith in the interim period. Not that he'll actually be in charge.

 

35 minutes ago, jamboinglasgow said:

I am not as worried as others, I think McAvoy is downplaying what Naismith does when in reality he will have a lot more say, but this is where the club has been poor with communicating with fans. Having a proper long interview with Joe or Andrew McKinlay to discuss this when it was announced would have helped clear a lot up. 

 

Also McAvoy having final say is not alarming, he is the Head Coach so someone has to be have final say.

 

I also think proper interviews from Hearts with Naismith and McAvoy this week will help.

 

28 minutes ago, D4nny_ said:

It’s a smokescreen. We’re not exactly going to come out and say that’s the case are we?

 

Yes it doesn’t look great on the face of it from a fans perspective but the majority wanted Naismith as manager. The club has clearly listened to that but UEFA is the reason that won’t be set in stone just yet because of his license conditions. I’ve no don’t the machine will be well oiled and everything will be sorted behind the scenes and that’s all that really matters.
 

Another example of why we’re not fan run, there’s some utter pant wetting going on here

 

 

I think my posting history would show I'm definitely not a "pant wetter" but I think there's some complacency here.

 

Firstly, the club starting the season with a "smokescreen" over the managerial situation is a complete embarrassment. The outward image of the club is important for a whole number of reasons. This has the potential to become a big distraction in the media and could even be off-putting to potential signings. "By the way, you have to pretend the manager isn't the manager in public because he's not got his badges, that ok?" I'd definitely think I was joining a proper professional set-up there.

 

Maybe it'll end up working fine behind the scenes, but we've got no idea it'll work like a "well-oiled machine" until we start the season proper. McAvoy and Naismith haven't worked in this arrangement long. What if they have a divergence of views, results start going poorly and McAvoy decides he isn't happy about having his name being put to the team selections and tactical choices? What happens if players start to question Naismith's authority by pointing out he isn't really supposed to be in charge?

 

I can't think there's much precedent for this kind of arrangement so I'm not so confident with the "it'll be fine" conclusions.

[BlueRiver]

3 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

People need to understand the difference between the de jure and the de facto.  

 

[hughesie27]

3 minutes ago, Saint Jambo said:

 

So why do you think the club have decided to lie to the fans in this fashion? He had the option of saying the three of them would work together as a team or their ways of working would remain private. A vague answer that kept everyone happy. Why lie? The reaction is totally predictable.

Where have Hearts lied to the fans?

[Jason Dufner]

Absolute shambles now.

 

For a fan owned club the communication really is terrible.

[davemclaren]

1 minute ago, BlueRiver said:

 

That's how magic works. 😇

[hughesie27]

2 minutes ago, Dennis Reynolds said:

All this for a guy with seven games under his belt

 

There wasn't a single candidate in world football better? Do me a favour.

Now that's the real question worth asking. The fans wanted Naismith though.

[D4nny_]

9 minutes ago, David McCaig said:

I would rather we were honest and paid the fine for the 2 games we will likely be in Europe even put Naismith on gardening leave for Euro nights than come out with this disingenuous nonsense.

 

If the club have genuinely appointed McAvoy as to all intents and purposes our Manager let the fans know why he was considered a superior candidate to Naismith and all other applicants.

 

McAvoy came to the club primarily to order cones, bibs and book training pitches.  What competence did a soon to be 56 year old demonstrate in the 1 short term managerial job of his career to merit the Hearts job... It must have been some interview.

Full agree reference McAvoy, but maybe they have been honest as per the clubs statement announcing the appointments:

 

 "In order to comply with UEFA regulations, with Steven not having the required Pro License qualification, a requirement to manage in European competition, Frankie will be named Head Coach with Steven serving as Technical Director.”

 

Reims were getting fined £22,000 for every game that Will Still was in charge because he hadn’t started his Pro Licence. Maybe that’s money that the board feel could be better utilised elsewhere.

 

[BlueRiver]

1 minute ago, Jason Dufner said:

Absolute shambles now.

 

For a fan owned club the communication really is terrible.

 

You packed in the golf? 

[Saint Jambo]

3 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

People need to understand the difference between the de jure and the de facto.  

 

So when McAvoy explicitly says he has final say on who plays and he has discussed that with Naismith who is happy with that position, you think that should reasonably be interpreted as a de jure statement? I find it very hard to interpret the meaning of that statement as anything other than outlining the de facto position.

[hughesie27]

Just now, Saint Jambo said:

 

So when McAvoy explicitly says he has final say on who plays and he has discussed that with Naismith who is happy with that position, you think that should reasonably be interpreted as a de jure statement? I find it very hard to interpret the meaning of that statement as anything other than outlining the de facto position.

Brilliant. Should be no issue fooling UEFA then.

[davemclaren]

Just now, Saint Jambo said:

 

So when McAvoy explicitly says he has final say on who plays and he has discussed that with Naismith who is happy with that position, you think that should reasonably be interpreted as a de jure statement? I find it very hard to interpret the meaning of that statement as anything other than outlining the de facto position.

That's your view of it which is what UEFA will see as well.  Not sure what folk don't understand. 

[Saint Jambo]

2 minutes ago, hughesie27 said:

Where have Hearts lied to the fans?

 

Who do you believe has final say on picking the team?

 

My interpretation of your earlier post is that you think Naismith is really the manager which would mean  he has final say on picking the team. Hearts through this interview have said that McAvoy has final say of picking the team. If Naismith is manager and has final say in picking the team, then the club has lied to us here.

[Naisys Tackle]

3 minutes ago, D4nny_ said:

Full agree reference McAvoy, but maybe they have been honest as per the clubs statement announcing the appointments:

 

 "In order to comply with UEFA regulations, with Steven not having the required Pro License qualification, a requirement to manage in European competition, Frankie will be named Head Coach with Steven serving as Technical Director.”

 

Reims were getting fined £22,000 for every game that Will Still was in charge because he hadn’t started his Pro Licence. Maybe that’s money that the board feel could be better utilised elsewhere.

 

Ahhh so thats the truth and not lies?

 

£44k savings is worth looking a complete shambles then?

[Bongo 1874]

Who gives a ****.

 

 

[gnasher75]

1 hour ago, Newton51 said:

He calls the shots 

 

 

 

Ignore the words and look at the picture. It's obvious they are just saying what needs to be said.

 

After all these years of the Record linking the Old Firm with one of our players a few days before we play them, I like this. Get the impression the journalist bought it too.

 

If it's in the Record it must be true!

[davemclaren]

Just now, Bongo 1874 said:

Who gives a ****.

 

 

Quite. 

[Bongo 1874]

Making a bid deal out of nothing.

 

 

[Naisys Tackle]

2 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

That's your view of it which is what UEFA will see as well.  Not sure what folk don't understand. 

Its a shambles Dave.  A temporary manager who has no experience given the job of managing the 3rd biggest club in the country yet he may not be afterall to save a few quid now people are lying in the media?  

[Naisys Tackle]

1 minute ago, gnasher75 said:

 

Ignore the words and look at the picture. It's obvious they are just saying what needs to be said.

 

After all these years of the Record linking the Old Firm with one of our players a few days before we play them, I like this. Get the impression the journalist bought it too.

 

If it's in the Record it must be true!

Theres quotes? 

[Bongo 1874]

Just now, davemclaren said:

Quite. 

Don't know if you are in support of me or against me haha,but it's really not a big deal.

[Saint Jambo]

2 minutes ago, hughesie27 said:

Brilliant. Should be no issue fooling UEFA then.

 

But they haven't fooled me. I'm entirely open to the possibility the club have chosen to lie to the fans. I'm sure UEFA will be open to that possibility too.

 

1 minute ago, davemclaren said:

That's your view of it which is what UEFA will see as well.  Not sure what folk don't understand. 

 

You genuinely think UEFA will base their conclusion on a Daily Record article? Seriously?

 

What I don't understand is if Naismith is going to pick the team, why send out one of your senior staff to lie about it for no benefit.

[davemclaren]

1 minute ago, Naisys Tackle said:

It's a shambles Dave.  A temporary manager who has no experience given the job of managing the 3rd biggest club in the country yet he may not be afterall to save a few quid now people are lying in the media?  

I was unconvinced with his appointment but if you make that appointment you have to follow it through.  I don't have a problem with that. 

[jamboinglasgow]

2 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

That's your view of it which is what UEFA will see as well.  Not sure what folk don't understand. 

 

Yup. Plus I am pretty sure UEFA know what we are doing but we are complying with their rules and as long as we keep doing that we are fine. If we were flaunting that we were messing with UEFA's rules then UEFA will be forced to step in. So as long as McAvoy acts as head coach, does all the required things in European games and Naismith is a technical director then UEFA are happy.

 

Also from that article it suggests that Naismith is doing his pro-licence at the moment so may mean he has to go off on courses every so often. So may also be the reason why having McAvoy as head coach makes sense for when Naismith is away.

[davemclaren]

Just now, Saint Jambo said:

 

But they haven't fooled me. I'm entirely open to the possibility the club have chosen to lie to the fans. I'm sure UEFA will be open to that possibility too.

 

 

You genuinely think UEFA will base their conclusion on a Daily Record article? Seriously?

 

What I don't understand is if Naismith is going to pick the team, why send out one of your senior staff to lie about it for no benefit.

I don't think UEFA will believe it  but they would have to 'legally' prove it isn't true.  The ramblings of supporters on here, including me, isn't strong evidence.  

[hughesie27]

1 minute ago, Saint Jambo said:

 

Who do you believe has final say on picking the team?

 

My interpretation of your earlier post is that you think Naismith is really the manager which would mean  he has final say on picking the team. Hearts through this interview have said that McAvoy has final say of picking the team. If Naismith is manager and has final say in picking the team, then the club has lied to us here.

My interpretation is that they are lying to the journalist, who in turn will report the lie to the world. The journalist themselves probably know full well that they've been fed a line. 
If everyone just play their part and goes along with the charade then nobody needs to lose their minds.

I bet the majority are reacting this way because of the perceived poor window we have had so far. Had we held onto Ginnelly and signed a couple of players the reaction wouldn't be nearly as knee jerk. 

 

I'm more than happy to discuss the suitability of having to make up this lie and play it out until presumably we get punted from the qualifiers. But to genuinely believe anyone other than SN is going to be picking the team is laughable. 

[D4nny_]

3 minutes ago, DC_92 said:

 

 

I can't speak for others, but I mentioned that possibility because my point was that it isn't a rationally justifiable position for us to put forward in public, given he was assistant to Naismith in the interim period. Not that he'll actually be in charge.

 

 

 

I think my posting history would show I'm definitely not a "pant wetter" but I think there's some complacency here.

 

Firstly, the club starting the season with a "smokescreen" over the managerial situation is a complete embarrassment. The outward image of the club is important for a whole number of reasons. This has the potential to become a big distraction in the media and could even be off-putting to potential signings. "By the way, you have to pretend the manager isn't the manager in public because he's not got his badges, that ok?" I'd definitely think I was joining a proper professional set-up there.

 

Maybe it'll end up working fine behind the scenes, but we've got no idea it'll work like a "well-oiled machine" until we start the season proper. McAvoy and Naismith haven't worked in this arrangement long. What if they have a divergence of views, results start going poorly and McAvoy decides he isn't happy about having his name being put to the team selections and tactical choices? What happens if players start to question Naismith's authority by pointing out he isn't really supposed to be in charge?

 

I can't think there's much precedent for this kind of arrangement so I'm not so confident with the "it'll be fine" conclusions.

Never suggested you were,  but you must admit some of the statements on here from a small minority are somewhat ridiculous.

 

Totally agree with you regarding the “smokescreen” but as I said in my recent post that Hearts did come and say “as Naismith doesn’t hold his pro licence.” It’s almost a hidden interpretation or could be taken as one. They obviously felt the need to include that.

 

I’m not for one moment saying that a smokescreen is the case, I don’t know and 99.9% of people on here won’t know, I’m just reading between the lines.

 

You do make a very valid point reference results. Particularly if we don’t hit the ground running, nor there being any precedent for this kind of arrangement but I personally have trust in the board, despite the whole Cathro/ Levein / Neilson pt2 saga.

 

Time will indeed tell. I’m behind the management team and they have my backing.

[davemclaren]

5 minutes ago, Bongo 1874 said:

Don't know if you are in support of me or against me haha,but it's really not a big deal.

I agree with you. 

[Saint Jambo]

1 minute ago, davemclaren said:

I don't think UEFA will believe it  but they would have to 'legally' prove it isn't true.  The ramblings of supporters on here, including me, isn't strong evidence.  

 

So why say it in an interview? If it isn't going to convince UEFA then what is the point? There was no need to give an interview to a media outlet outlining our management processes, roles and responsibilities if they aren't true. Some fans are understandably going to be unhappy about the club lying to us. As you would say, I'm really not sure what you aren't understanding here.

[Saint Jambo]

4 minutes ago, hughesie27 said:

My interpretation is that they are lying to the journalist, who in turn will report the lie to the world. The journalist themselves probably know full well that they've been fed a line. 
If everyone just play their part and goes along with the charade then nobody needs to lose their minds.

I bet the majority are reacting this way because of the perceived poor window we have had so far. Had we held onto Ginnelly and signed a couple of players the reaction wouldn't be nearly as knee jerk. 

 

I'm more than happy to discuss the suitability of having to make up this lie and play it out until presumably we get punted from the qualifiers. But to genuinely believe anyone other than SN is going to be picking the team is laughable. 

 

Not sure why you asked where the club has lied to the supporters. You've just outlined it it detail.

[hughesie27]

Just now, Saint Jambo said:

 

So why say it in an interview? If it isn't going to convince UEFA then what is the point? There was no need to give an interview to a media outlet outlining our management processes, roles and responsibilities if they aren't true. Some fans are understandably going to be unhappy about the club lying to us. As you would say, I'm really not sure what you aren't understanding here.

The journalist asked a question. Saying anything other than what he did would have opened the door to questioning from UEFA.

[Saint Jambo]

Just now, hughesie27 said:

The journalist asked a question. Saying anything other than what he did would have opened the door to questioning from UEFA.

 

Welcome to media training 101, how to answer a question by avoiding giving a straight answer, but whatever you do not lying. This is genuinely the most basic comms strategy in the world.

[Stendelnator]

Here is a fact. Neilson was sacked, correctly, and Savage appointed his mate Frankie to replace him. After a “robust hiring process”. Doesn’t matter if it’s “in name only”. 

 

if any other team in the league did this we would be ripping the absolute piss. All for a “caretaker management team” that won 2/7. 

[RENE]

Surely it's not hard to understand.  Naismith will hand over his selection to McAvoy, and he will agree with it, thus having final say. 😁

[Central Belt 1874]

2 minutes ago, Saint Jambo said:

 

Not sure why you asked where the club has lied to the supporters. You've just outlined it it detail.

 

What am I missing here with all this? All that's required by Hearts surely is for Naismith to sit in the stand for the two European games and McAvoy to be in the technical area. 

 

Why this nonsense in the press? 

 

 

[Unknown user]

Some reek in here!

[Bongo 1874]

3 minutes ago, Stendelnator said:

Here is a fact. Neilson was sacked, correctly, and Savage appointed his mate Frankie to replace him. After a “robust hiring process”. Doesn’t matter if it’s “in name only”. 

 

if any other team in the league did this we would be ripping the absolute piss. All for a “caretaker management team” that won 2/7. 

Aye and the same people wanted Marti Cifuentes, a guy who is no better than Stendel.

 

 

[David McCaig]

1 minute ago, hughesie27 said:

The journalist asked a question. Saying anything other than what he did would have opened the door to questioning from UEFA.

Not quite as straightforward as that.

 

Hearts are basically asking the media to be complicit in pushing the McAvoy as Manager line, despite it really being Naismith.

 

The worrying thing is that if we can lie about this we can lie about anything.

 

Get set for Fun Time Frankie patronising the fans with the "We can split the OF" pish that his best mate Joe Savage spouts publicly and then ridicules when you talk to him face to face.

[hughesie27]

4 minutes ago, Saint Jambo said:

 

Not sure why you asked where the club has lied to the supporters. You've just outlined it it detail.

It's only a lie if you feel they are trying to get one over you. They aren't.

File it alongside managers pretending players aren't available for games and then putting them in the team.

[davemclaren]

3 minutes ago, RENE said:

Surely it's not hard to understand.  Naismith will hand over his selection to McAvoy, and he will agree with it, thus having final say. 😁

Quite. 

[McNelly15]

[BlueRiver]

1 minute ago, davemclaren said:

Quite. 

 

Indeed

[davemclaren]

9 minutes ago, Saint Jambo said:

 

So why say it in an interview? If it isn't going to convince UEFA then what is the point? There was no need to give an interview to a media outlet outlining our management processes, roles and responsibilities if they aren't true. Some fans are understandably going to be unhappy about the club lying to us. As you would say, I'm really not sure what you aren't understanding here.

I think I understand it perfectly tbh. I've had plenty of experience of managing truth in my career.  

[Hungry hippo]

2 minutes ago, Central Belt 1874 said:

 

What am I missing here with all this? All that's required by Hearts surely is for Naismith to sit in the stand for the two European games and McAvoy to be in the technical area. 

 

Why this nonsense in the press? 

 

 

 

I'm relaxed about the situation but agree with your suggestion that it seems to have a simple solution. Perhaps that would still against the rules but I don't see how.

[Saint Jambo]

3 minutes ago, hughesie27 said:

It's only a lie if you feel they are trying to get one over you. They aren't.

File it alongside managers pretending players aren't available for games and then putting them in the team.

You agreed it was a lie earlier.

 

The argument that they are lying in Daily Record interview because that is what is required to convince UEFA that we aren't breaking the rules is utterly ridiculous.