Kuol and Oda

[db211833]

Just now, MarkDevriesScores4 said:

Clearly neither offer enough in training. 2 managers have had a look at them and decided they’re not starting 11 and fairly down the pecking order even as subs. The tiny amount of football I’ve seen them play, they didn’t show anything either. 

Exactly, if they were showing up well they would be playing. To suggest anything different is just plain stupid. 

[Spookie]

58 minutes ago, Bungalow Bill said:

I thought we needed to roll the dice yesterday and bring one of them on. I don’t even know what the point of them even being on the bench is right now. 

Kuols pace would have given us a chance at something 

[db211833]

5 minutes ago, Des Lynam said:

Kuol is a Savage vanity project. 

I think there is an element of that. If you looked at where we were in January and what we needed, Kuol was never it. 

[Jambo61]

1 hour ago, Barney bulge said:

Genuine question 

can I ask what makes you see “ a player in there “ with oda ? 

obviously he’s not had much of a chance but I honestly don’t think in the minutes he’s had I’ve seen him complete a pass, shoot, take a player on,run at a player, win a tackle or a header,  not a single thing 

I think he’s looked like a fan that’s snuck on the pitch any time he’s had minutes and pretty much put him down to another pony signing.

would love to be proved wrong as he’s on a 3 year deal 

I've seen him run along the line waiting on a ball round the back/ over the top to chase and it ended up back at our goalie. He's had absolutely nothing to work with in his few minutes!

[jr ewing]

17 minutes ago, Des Lynam said:

Kuol is a Savage vanity project. 

Wondering how many of our players would interest Newcastle?

[Cruyff]

Kuol's been badly advised. Should've been learning in Newcastle u23's. 

 

Can't really comment on Oda because he's only had about 15-20 minutes. 

[Debut 4]

1 hour ago, Clerry Jambo said:

I really thought Naisy would have started koul yesterday but again lad doesn’t get a look in, strange

We can’t do any worse at the moment.  From the fleeting views we’ve had, he’s at least got energy and……runs!

 

Its at that stage for me.  It’s needs totally stripped back and we need players Naismith thinks will actually energise the team.   Maybe we need to change the nature of the frontline for a game or two?

 

Shankland is being snuffed out just now, and while I’m not saying he’s static, he’s not got the burst of pace or nature to run the channels.  There seemed to be no outlet yesterday who could stretch the opposition.  
 

(I’m not saying drop Shanks though, he needs help)
 

Edited April 16, 2023 by Debut 4

[RustyRightPeg]

2 hours ago, David McCaig said:

Last two subs?

Sorry yeah the Kio and Cochrane ones. 

[ford donald]

1 hour ago, Spookie said:

Kuols pace would have given us a chance at something 

 

Why bring on two players when there is not a goal between them,we needed something extra,baffling subs.

[soonbe110]

1 hour ago, MarkDevriesScores4 said:

Clearly neither offer enough in training. 2 managers have had a look at them and decided they’re not starting 11 and fairly down the pecking order even as subs. The tiny amount of football I’ve seen them play, they didn’t show anything either. 

Is the correct answer. 

[soonbe110]

1 hour ago, Spookie said:

Kuols pace would have given us a chance at something 

Winning a race not a football match maybe 

[ford donald]

2 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

Is the correct answer. 

 

So why have them in the first place?

[washniklaw]

I have reasonable confidence that Oda will contribute in a positive way over the coming seasons provided he can settle into Scotland. I watched training last week and he was a live wire and a nuisance in the practice match they were doing. He was surprisingly physical and very fast over 5 yards.

 

Worth remembering that he is very young and in a totally different environment to the one he grew up in. Give him time and I think we will benefit.

[soonbe110]

1 minute ago, ford donald said:

 

So why have them in the first place?

You would have to ask Mr Savage that one.  I have no idea. The players haven’t provided any clues either. 

[Hansel]

Hopefully we'll see them play next week. Need to shake things up.

 

Think Naismith picked a similar line up to Robbies last game in an attempt to get a response from them and give them a chance to make amends, but that was not forthcoming.

 

 

I'm hoping the next game he will make big changes to that team and give these guys a chance to shine

[A_A wehatethehibs]

A football manager picks players based on what he sees in training 

 

People need to get away from this “he’s no getting a chance” shite. You folk that swallow that shite. It’s a fabrication. 

 

New manager comes in - picks the players who done best at training. Oh look it’s basically the same players Neilson picked 

 

It’s about Levels neither of these 2 are at the level required. This fan myth of “no gettin a chance” is a pile of pish every time it happens. The best players available invariably are the ones who get picked. 

[Australis]

Looks like Neilson thought they weren't good enough and Naismith feels the same.

 

We are in a bit of a state if we have to continue with the same starting eleven that got Neilson sacked.

[Naisys Tackle]

14 minutes ago, A_A wehatethehibs said:

A football manager picks players based on what he sees in training 

 

People need to get away from this “he’s no getting a chance” shite. You folk that swallow that shite. It’s a fabrication. 

 

New manager comes in - picks the players who done best at training. Oh look it’s basically the same players Neilson picked 

 

It’s about Levels neither of these 2 are at the level required. This fan myth of “no gettin a chance” is a pile of pish every time it happens. The best players available invariably are the ones who get picked. 

Kio must be an absolute superstar in training same as Hill because they are ****ing shite on the park.  Cochrane must be shocking, the only explanation to not playing him.

[Andyp1874]

3 hours ago, Diadora Van Basten said:

I think I am right in saying they have had zero minutes in the last five games and in those five games we have scored only one goal.

 

Are Kuol and Oda really that bad that they don’t deserve any opportunities at all when our attack is clearly not working. 

Have to be better than Forrest 

[LochcarronJambo]

My worry is if the players have been picked recently on how ‘good’ they are in training, then training must be horrendous !

[Naisys Tackle]

4 minutes ago, LochcarronJambo said:

My worry is if the players have been picked recently on how ‘good’ they are in training, then training must be horrendous !

And that wouldnt tie in with the Snodgrass stories when he was getting picked every week.  

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

Oda is 3.5 year contract, likely signed with next year in mind. 

 

Which made Kuol signing curious, when really we could have done with a Simms type. Would have been hard to repeat that one, however taking 2young players in from the other side of the globe in the same week, seemed then somewhat impulsive, and now just downright reckless. 

 

The table in January has made fools of all of us 

[dannymack]

4 hours ago, Diadora Van Basten said:

I think I am right in saying they have had zero minutes in the last five games and in those five games we have scored only one goal.

 

Are Kuol and Oda really that bad that they don’t deserve any opportunities at all when our attack is clearly not working. 

Bad reading since our last game against Hibs but surely they're worthy of a start due to this embarrassment.

10 goals in 12 games conceding 20. 

[gregzy2k7]

They both need a start, even if we started Kuol against county and brought on Oda later in the match I would be happy, otherwise what was the point of even signing them, especially Kuol who is only on loan until the end of the season. 

[Thomaso]

Just what was the point in signing these guys? 🤷‍♂️

[feedthefox]

Surely part of the deal of getting Newcastle to agree to loan him to us was he'd get minutes and I mean way more than he has. Why on earth would Newcastle send him to us if he's going to just sit on the bench? He'd be better off playing reserve or u23 at St James where they could monitor his progress, what on earth is the benefit to Newcastle of having him at Hearts? At this rate he will be going back at end of season an inferior player.

[Spookie]

2 hours ago, ford donald said:

 

Why bring on two players when there is not a goal between them,we needed something extra,baffling subs.

There's no a goal between because they've no had a chance to play

[Spookie]

1 hour ago, soonbe110 said:

Winning a race not a football match maybe 

Pace causes problems especially against the likes of Paul Hanlon, Lewis Stevenson or will we just chuck on more defensive minded midfielders 

 

That'll get us a goal eh 

[Naisys Tackle]

1 hour ago, Australis said:

Looks like Neilson thought they weren't good enough and Naismith feels the same.

 

We are in a bit of a state if we have to continue with the same starting eleven that got Neilson sacked.

Send the Aussie back to Newcastle then.  Daft having him here.   The squads far too big anyway. 

[BackOfTheNet]

Can I just say that Neilson taking Oda off at half time against Livingston was utter, utter shite man management

[Naisys Tackle]

6 minutes ago, BackOfTheNet said:

Can I just say that Neilson taking Oda off at half time against Livingston was utter, utter shite man management

Agree. 

[ford donald]

30 minutes ago, Spookie said:

There's no a goal between because they've no had a chance to play

 Still no a goal between after there chance to play,it was the wrong subs!

[Lone Striker]

5 hours ago, BackOfTheNet said:

I’m not being patronising, simply stating that what you’re saying didn’t happen. Not sure why you’re saying it, because it’s popular with the “herd” or you have need for someone to vent at, I dunno. But what you describe did not happen in the slightest. I watched the game too, as did plenty in the ratings thread who believed he had a better game than Halliday did.

That may be so, but its not really anything to crow about.  fwiw, I see Kio as the epitome of a footballer who plays "within himself" -  just doing the bare minimum, seldom doing anything out of the ordinary, a steady 5 out of 10 player.    Not terrible, but not eye-catching either.   Not just because DM is a difficult role to be eye-catching in  anyway, but his reading of the game and anticipating situations seems "meh" at best.

 

Sadly, we now have a full team of Kio's   

[BackOfTheNet]

6 hours ago, Lone Striker said:

That may be so, but its not really anything to crow about.  fwiw, I see Kio as the epitome of a footballer who plays "within himself" -  just doing the bare minimum, seldom doing anything out of the ordinary, a steady 5 out of 10 player.    Not terrible, but not eye-catching either.   Not just because DM is a difficult role to be eye-catching in  anyway, but his reading of the game and anticipating situations seems "meh" at best.

 

Sadly, we now have a full team of Kio's   

I’m not going to start saying he's been great, my main point is people are unnecessarily making him scapegoat of the month. After Atkinson wasn’t getting minutes and Sibbick turned his form around, it had to be someone, and so it’s Kiomourtzoglou.

 

And frankly, I’m tired of it. He’s not been culpable for goals, or the reason we’ve lost or haven’t created (because that’s been down to team selection and down to creativity in the final third). Just like in the past where people need a scapegoat to vent their anger at, unnecessary hyperbole about “worst player” or “waste of a jersey” or “never a footballer” or “waste of money” gets trotted out by many. And in his case it’s crap about “pointing and hiding” that’s the trope he’s been labelled with. (Makes a change from the usual lazy and chicken hearted tropes I suppose)

 

Has he been great? No. Has he been sufficiently more terrible than the rest of the team has during bad spells? No. Has he had good games (not great, but good) that many will not acknowledge because it doesn’t fit with their pub punditry, group chat, social media seethe rants? Absolutely.

 

Maybe it’s because we spent money on him? Well, if so, vent at Savage and his recruitment staff if that’s the case. If people are so inclined. Or get mad at whoever picks him to play. (Like I do when players get played who I don’t think should like Kingsley or out of position like Halliday - don’t get mad at the players themselves, question the team selection) I’m just tired of people making up things to justify complete and utter pish they push about players to have a go at them personally.

[...andFulton'sBaggio]

13 hours ago, BackOfTheNet said:

That’s your problem. You expect him to make raking cross field passes, or last ditch tackles (never a good thing defensively that by the way, as Maldini once famously said, it means you’ve made a mistake in the first place) or anything you’ve said. Not all players are impact players. For instance Snodgrass didn’t do any of the things you’ve said either.

 

Kiomourtzoglou is there to break up play, to mark players, to intercept, to win the ball back and pass it on. Nothing for the highlight reel, but can he very effective. I by no means will say he’s been great this season in the interrupted outings he’s had, but this pish about him pointing and hiding only is simply that, pish.

I honestly don't see a use for that in a football team. It's a complete waste of a jersey. Ok, last ditch I take your point. That shouldn't be needed if you read the game well. But look at Cammy Devlin. Not always the best passer, positionally suspect at times, but the guy makes a DIFFERENCE. Halliday can have a rotten game, then pop up with a goal. Kio - nothing. I barely even remember him making an interception.

 

You can't afford to be so one-dimensional that all you do is win the ball and pass it a few yards. Granted, it would help the guy if his midfield partner could receive the ball and make a telling pass. But you also have to SHOW for the ball when we're in possession, give an option for a one-two, take some responsibility, play some actual football. Kio NEVER does that.

 

Honestly, just watch him next time. I know you've got it in your head that it's a JKB myth, but WATCH him next time. When we're in possession he never takes the ball, not even for a one touch pass. I've got no time for players like that. Limited ability? Sure. Didier Deschamps water carrier type? No problem. But this guy? I mean, what's the point of being a footballer if you don't want touches of the ball?

[joondalupjambo]

14 hours ago, Diadora Van Basten said:

I think playing against a defence containing two veterans like Stevenson and Hanlon Kuol’s pace would have been a threat especially towards the end when the game got stretched.

Their two thugs Newall and Campbell would have made sure they hit Kuol long before he got near Hanlon and Stevenson.  

 

Yeah maybe you are right but I just think we should not be needing to rely on a young boy, one with limited experience at this crucial time of the season.  Thinking he would bail us of out a game, especially a Derby is, for me a step too far.  Understand where you are coming from though as I say but not for me. 

[Shooter McGavin]

The both of them feel like Cathro era signings.

 

Totally forgettable.

[Wish]

Said this on another thread - 

 

If we were buying a 'project' in Oda, it should have been done from a position of strength. By that I mean, 2-3 seasons of 3rd places finishes, where the squad would be deep and strong enough to accommodate a project. We currently need players who can hit the ground running, and from what I've seen so far, Oda isn't it.

 

Koul seems like a marriage of convenience. Moving over to a new country, not going to start for Newcastle. Edinburgh isn't a million miles away from Newcastle and there's three of his Aussie team mates to help him acclimatise and get used to living in the UK. Again, a signing which should have been made from a position of strength.

[amadjambo]

15 hours ago, chrisg8 said:

Humphrys is a striker dosnt want to be playing on the right hand side.

Looked like he doesn’t want to play anywhere for us on Saturday. Never seen a Hearts player look less interested in a derby. But that’s the trouble with loan players. They can be great when things are going well, but when the going gets tough they always disappoint.

[JamboJoker98]

10 hours ago, BackOfTheNet said:

Can I just say that Neilson taking Oda off at half time against Livingston was utter, utter shite man management

To start him on that pitch and against an industrious Livi as well? Thought at the time it was really bad management by Neilson , looking back maybe he was trying to send a message to upstairs but then again it was the start of the implosion so he'd probably just lost it

 

Willing to give him time

[Cruickie's Moustache]

Both boys look a bit  lightweight though Kuol looks happy to throw himself in there when need be.

 

For Saturday I'd prefer to see Humphrys right up top in the middle,  in a Simms type role, giving RC defenders a hard time and then have the speedsters coming on later to give their defense something else to worry about.

 

It is fine having big defenders and centre halves dominating physically but as the game goes on and they tire then more chance of them giving away free kicks and pens against a quick and lively lighter weight attacker.

 

We know what everyone else has to offer and need to try something new at some point. 

[TheBigO]

Not scrambling for these kids as such but we need more of a threat than just Barrie.  I don't mind Forrest, really don't, but he's energy without threat at present.  Humps came on on Saturday and didn't do well at all - again like him but hes a rea.  Shanks is where we want him on the pitch now but we need guys feeding him.

 

I think we need to persevere with Jorge at 10 in a 4231 and let him see if he can unlock things for us, and Barrie was much more like his old self until Hibs stopped supply to him (to their credit and we had no plan B).  We need that secondary threat either around shanks or out on the right wing.  Could be Gino when back, I guess, but for this week if he isn't, is it Oda or Kuol?  Is it Pollock?!

 

We need some kind of spark.  The way I see it, even if one of those 3 lads is a bit lost, what do we really lose in comparison to what we've had on the pitch of late??  I think the "risk" of playing them is worth it against the potential for them to give us a bit of life.

 

Also need to sort Cammy's partner in midfield and I duno, maybe it is time for Toby at CM, or we need to pin hope on Pete, who I love but it's a lot to ask of the guy these days.

[Gundermann]

16 hours ago, Naisys Tackle said:

Yesterday was too physical a game for them.  Would have to eaten up.   Probably see them next week.

 

Possibly though Ross County's approach is as agricultural as they come. Just hope the ref cuts out their martial tactics early doors.

[Tom Hardy’s Dug]

12 hours ago, Lord Beni of Gorgie said:

Oda is 3.5 year contract, likely signed with next year in mind. 

 

Which made Kuol signing curious, when really we could have done with a Simms type. Would have been hard to repeat that one, however taking 2young players in from the other side of the globe in the same week, seemed then somewhat impulsive, and now just downright reckless. 

 

The table in January has made fools of all of us 

I think the table in January also informed our decision about not ponying up for Paterson.

 

At the time I almost posted that we might regret not doing so but even then I couldn’t see the plummet we have had. Paterson would have earned us points in both boxes IMO.

 

Took our eye off the ball there IMO and it’s part of what has cost us. Everyone was far too complacent in January.

 

Projects, young CBs, not just getting Calum.

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

14 minutes ago, Tom Hardy’s Dug said:

I think the table in January also informed our decision about not ponying up for Paterson.

 

At the time I almost posted that we might regret not doing so but even then I couldn’t see the plummet we have had. Paterson would have earned us points in both boxes IMO.

 

Took our eye off the ball there IMO and it’s part of what has cost us. Everyone was far too complacent in January.

 

Projects, young CBs, not just getting Calum.

Nobody could have saw such a freefall. Paterson has of course only just returned from an injury, so who knows, but in theory exactly the type of character needed just now as you say in either box.

There was always a chance we would overload Shankland too, just as we did Naismith himself years back and recently Boyce. Simms gave the place a huge lift last year, something akin to that signing was required. Either up front or back. An aggressor

[PapaShango]

12 hours ago, dannymack said:

Bad reading since our last game against Hibs but surely they're worthy of a start due to this embarrassment.

10 goals in 12 games conceding 20. 

When laid out like that it really is horrendous. If we had won those last 4 games then 3rd would likely be done and dusted. However we have been on a downward spiral for a while and some of the performances have been god awful. I think Oda was signed as more for the future than the here and now but surely there is no harm in playing him when you consider what other options we have. Forrest is just not good enough, runs around a lot and plenty effort but never Hearts quality. Kuol has had one start in a midfield 3 at home to Rangers. His confidence is probably shot to pieces with the lack of any action. What was the strategy in signing him on loan until the end of the season if he wasn't going to play? I'm sure Newcastle are asking questions re his lack of game time as well. Again like Oda, he probably isn't going to do any worse than what has went before him if played in his correct position. 

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

I would have thrown on Kuol on Saturday. Nobody was going to hold it against him, if Ginnelly isnt fit got to be worth a shot, now left with nothing really to lose, continue as we are its gone anyway

[PapaShango]

Just now, Lord Beni of Gorgie said:

I would have thrown on Kuol on Saturday. Nobody was going to hold it against him, if Ginnelly isnt fit got to be worth a shot, now left with nothing really to lose, continue as we are its gone anyway

I'm not optimistic but I hope the players haven't chucked in the towel yet. There are still plenty of points up for grabs between now and the end of the season. I'm hoping for 3 points on Saturday to restore some confidence and kick start our league form. 

[wavydavy]

1 minute ago, Lord Beni of Gorgie said:

I would have thrown on Kuol on Saturday. Nobody was going to hold it against him, if Ginnelly isnt fit got to be worth a shot, now left with nothing really to lose, continue as we are its gone anyway

 

I agree. Easter Road is a big pitch and would have given Kuol space to run onto a ball behind their defence. He is the only player other than Ginnelly with real pace.

 

I really can't belive that he is worse than any of the others in training to justify not giving him a game. 

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

3 minutes ago, wavydavy said:

 

I agree. Easter Road is a big pitch and would have given Kuol space to run onto a ball behind their defence. He is the only player other than Ginnelly with real pace.

 

I really can't belive that he is worse than any of the others in training to justify not giving him a game. 

If they arent ready for 90 mins fair enough, Kuol showed early flashes as a sub, certainly against United maybe St Mirren too, where he could speed away. The disaster not of his own making against Rangers, seemed to be averted with the cameo against United, but dont remember seeing very much of him since.