Dick Dastardly Posted January 14, 2023 Share Posted January 14, 2023 Anyone got any expertise in this area? I found out last week that the business i work for has been more or less sold and could be finalised by the end of the month. My employer hasn't said a word about it to me and I'm not sure where i stand. Cheers in advance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cuthy2k Posted January 14, 2023 Share Posted January 14, 2023 From what I understand your T&C of employment are protected, but only for a certain time period - if I recall it is something like 12 months minimum. After that point, they could TRY to put you onto new T&C via a new contract that you would have to sign. You could of course reject that contract, which may result in redundancy. It purely depends on the attitude of the new owners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Dastardly Posted January 14, 2023 Author Share Posted January 14, 2023 24 minutes ago, Lord BJ said: I’m not an expert by any means. TUPE is basically there to protect employees rights. Essentially, your new owner will be obliged to honour your existing T&C’s and proviso certain conditions met in terms of business and the employees. If it’s just a new owner, nothing is likely to change tbh. A change of ownership, is more often than not just that, as the business remains. Are there specific reasons you are concerned? Its only a small family run business and, apart from 2 delivery drivers in the morning, I'm the only employee in the shop. If the new owners are prepared to work or have family themselves there might not be a need for me. I know that they are supposed to keep me on, but there isn't really much i can do if they take over and sack me. I'm also not sure if they have to keep my shifts as they are or if they can change them to suit themselves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Dastardly Posted January 14, 2023 Author Share Posted January 14, 2023 12 minutes ago, cuthy2k said: From what I understand your T&C of employment are protected, but only for a certain time period - if I recall it is something like 12 months minimum. After that point, they could TRY to put you onto new T&C via a new contract that you would have to sign. You could of course reject that contract, which may result in redundancy. It purely depends on the attitude of the new owners. Yeah, rights are supposedly protected but there isn't actually anything that can be done if they decide that they don't need staff working there. As i said above, its only a small business which could quite easily be run by a few people Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henrysmithsgloves Posted January 14, 2023 Share Posted January 14, 2023 Think about joining a union for peace of mind, hopefully nothing will change,but just in case. https://www.usdaw.org.uk/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted January 14, 2023 Share Posted January 14, 2023 5 minutes ago, henrysmithsgloves said: Think about joining a union for peace of mind, hopefully nothing will change,but just in case. https://www.usdaw.org.uk/ Good suggestion . However they might not advocate for him until a few months membership ? He will need to check that out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henrysmithsgloves Posted January 14, 2023 Share Posted January 14, 2023 Just now, JudyJudyJudy said: Good suggestion . However they might not advocate for him until a few months membership ? He will need to check that out Most unions do,but would be worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted January 14, 2023 Share Posted January 14, 2023 Just now, henrysmithsgloves said: Most unions do,but would be worth it. Yes def Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankblack Posted January 14, 2023 Share Posted January 14, 2023 48 minutes ago, Dick Dastardly said: Its only a small family run business and, apart from 2 delivery drivers in the morning, I'm the only employee in the shop. If the new owners are prepared to work or have family themselves there might not be a need for me. I know that they are supposed to keep me on, but there isn't really much i can do if they take over and sack me. I'm also not sure if they have to keep my shifts as they are or if they can change them to suit themselves Not sure that is totally accurate. Happened to me in 2010. Had to sign a new contract within a month or be made redundant. If made redundant I'm not sure if it was on their terms or old employer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted January 14, 2023 Share Posted January 14, 2023 1 hour ago, Dick Dastardly said: Its only a small family run business and, apart from 2 delivery drivers in the morning, I'm the only employee in the shop. If the new owners are prepared to work or have family themselves there might not be a need for me. I know that they are supposed to keep me on, but there isn't really much i can do if they take over and sack me. I'm also not sure if they have to keep my shifts as they are or if they can change them to suit themselves The new owners could decide to let you go, but it should be on the same Ts & Cs as your current contract, i.e. notice and any redundancy payments due. In general, new owners of small businesses are free to restructure the workload, shifts, hours of work as they see fit. If they do, then it is up to you how flexible you wish to be. I'd advise being careful against being too obstructive, lest they view yourself as sacking yourself should you reject any changes. Even if you don't like any new Ts & Cs, then it is normally easier to find a new job while you are still employed, rather than being on the dole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Striker Posted January 14, 2023 Share Posted January 14, 2023 15 minutes ago, Footballfirst said: The new owners could decide to let you go, but it should be on the same Ts & Cs as your current contract, i.e. notice and any redundancy payments due. In general, new owners of small businesses are free to restructure the workload, shifts, hours of work as they see fit. If they do, then it is up to you how flexible you wish to be. I'd advise being careful against being too obstructive, lest they view yourself as sacking yourself should you reject any changes. Even if you don't like any new Ts & Cs, then it is normally easier to find a new job while you are still employed, rather than being on the dole. Thats how I understand it too, although I believe there's an initial (but time-limited) "protected" period after the ownership change where the new owner can't change your employment contract. For a small business, that may well just be a few months. FF's last sentence is very good advice - don't "chuck it" until you've secured another job !! Citizens Advice might be worth contacting to get a proper explanation of how TUPE affects small companies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankblack Posted January 14, 2023 Share Posted January 14, 2023 15 minutes ago, Lone Striker said: Thats how I understand it too, although I believe there's an initial (but time-limited) "protected" period after the ownership change where the new owner can't change your employment contract. For a small business, that may well just be a few months. FF's last sentence is very good advice - don't "chuck it" until you've secured another job !! Citizens Advice might be worth contacting to get a proper explanation of how TUPE affects small companies. For me this was all done in a month. 8 years later they shut our office and made us redundant.... Our product was a competitor to theirs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
periodictabledancer Posted January 14, 2023 Share Posted January 14, 2023 https://www.acas.org.uk/employee-rights-during-a-tupe-transfer/changing-your-employment-contract-after-a-tupe-transfer#:~:text=TUPE regulations give some protection,is unrelated to the transfer. If the main reason for a contract change is the transfer Your new employer can only make changes because of the transfer if either: they improve your terms and conditions, for example your employer increases your holiday entitlement (annual leave) there is an 'economic, technical or organisational' (ETO) reason involving a change in the workforce, for example your organisation needs restructuring TUPE regulations give some protection to your terms and conditions for an indefinite period. For example, if your new employer wants to change your terms and conditions 10 years later, they’d still need a valid reason for the change that is unrelated to the transfer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Slog Posted January 14, 2023 Share Posted January 14, 2023 (edited) They will have a new occupational pension scheme in place if they take over too, ensure they don't attempt to postpone you when that happens, or you may lose three months of contributions. Edited January 14, 2023 by Captain Slog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WorldChampions1902 Posted January 14, 2023 Share Posted January 14, 2023 I have been TUPE’d many times. My current employer just invokes Fire & Re-Hire to make whatever contract changes it desires. This Junta promised to legislate against such unsavoury practice, following the P&O debacle. Nothing has changed and nothing is going to change. Can’t wait for all the other employment deregulations to arrive over the next few years. Thank god I retire soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Findlay Posted January 14, 2023 Share Posted January 14, 2023 6 hours ago, cuthy2k said: From what I understand your T&C of employment are protected, but only for a certain time period - if I recall it is something like 12 months minimum. After that point, they could TRY to put you onto new T&C via a new contract that you would have to sign. You could of course reject that contract, which may result in redundancy. It purely depends on the attitude of the new owners. They are protected for 1 year. I have had this happen to me twice now. When Scotrail went from First Group to Abellio. Then from Abellio to the Scottish Government in April of last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankblack Posted January 15, 2023 Share Posted January 15, 2023 7 hours ago, periodictabledancer said: https://www.acas.org.uk/employee-rights-during-a-tupe-transfer/changing-your-employment-contract-after-a-tupe-transfer#:~:text=TUPE regulations give some protection,is unrelated to the transfer. If the main reason for a contract change is the transfer Your new employer can only make changes because of the transfer if either: they improve your terms and conditions, for example your employer increases your holiday entitlement (annual leave) there is an 'economic, technical or organisational' (ETO) reason involving a change in the workforce, for example your organisation needs restructuring TUPE regulations give some protection to your terms and conditions for an indefinite period. For example, if your new employer wants to change your terms and conditions 10 years later, they’d still need a valid reason for the change that is unrelated to the transfer. What I found was the company I moved over to had better salary grades etc but we didn't transfer to them because they had no obligation to offer it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
periodictabledancer Posted January 15, 2023 Share Posted January 15, 2023 4 hours ago, frankblack said: What I found was the company I moved over to had better salary grades etc but we didn't transfer to them because they had no obligation to offer it. Similar to me. My pension scheme was far better but the remuneration package and car allowance etc was better on the new company scheme. I never changed it in the twenty years I worked for them although there was some subtle pressure applied at times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinnybob72 Posted January 15, 2023 Share Posted January 15, 2023 While TUPE laws exist they offer little or no protection at all - the new company will largely get away with what they like. My other half was TUPE’d a few years ago and straight away the new company wanted her to sign a new contract with lower salary, less holidays, etc. She refused, resigned and took them to an industrial tribunal - which she won. She got little compensation as she had the audacity to find a new job and so was deemed to be “no worse off”. The company got a slap on the wrist and little else. There is no real deterrent if the new employer wants to shaft the employees they are taking on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister T Posted January 15, 2023 Share Posted January 15, 2023 16 hours ago, cuthy2k said: From what I understand your T&C of employment are protected, but only for a certain time period - if I recall it is something like 12 months minimum. After that point, they could TRY to put you onto new T&C via a new contract that you would have to sign. You could of course reject that contract, which may result in redundancy. It purely depends on the attitude of the new owners. You need to be careful with that as rejecting a valid / reasonable offer might be treated as self imposed redundancy (or whatever its proper name is) and then you're out the door without a bean. As henrysmithsgloves posted, join a union. While there might not be union recognition they'll still support you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie1874 Posted January 15, 2023 Share Posted January 15, 2023 19 hours ago, Dick Dastardly said: Anyone got any expertise in this area? I found out last week that the business i work for has been more or less sold and could be finalised by the end of the month. My employer hasn't said a word about it to me and I'm not sure where i stand. Cheers in advance For a small business, if they were selling you would think they would keep the employees informed in what’s happening. For a very small business which sounds like your workplace, you’re bound to have been mentioned by both sides when sale was discussed. First thing I’d be doing is quizzing present employers but as others have said I’d tread carefully with new employers until you decide if it’s for you or not. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankblack Posted January 15, 2023 Share Posted January 15, 2023 42 minutes ago, stevie1874 said: For a small business, if they were selling you would think they would keep the employees informed in what’s happening. For a very small business which sounds like your workplace, you’re bound to have been mentioned by both sides when sale was discussed. First thing I’d be doing is quizzing present employers but as others have said I’d tread carefully with new employers until you decide if it’s for you or not. Good luck. I worked in a firm that had maybe 30 people. Outside the top management nobody was made aware that the company was up for sale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie1874 Posted January 15, 2023 Share Posted January 15, 2023 15 minutes ago, frankblack said: I worked in a firm that had maybe 30 people. Outside the top management nobody was made aware that the company was up for sale. That’s pretty poor as owners at smaller businesses tend to know employees personally. Hope it worked out ok for you 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankblack Posted January 15, 2023 Share Posted January 15, 2023 1 hour ago, stevie1874 said: That’s pretty poor as owners at smaller businesses tend to know employees personally. Hope it worked out ok for you 👍 They shut the office 8 years later and made most redundant, transferring our jobs stateside. Redundancy package was decent and walked into a better job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sinks Posted January 15, 2023 Share Posted January 15, 2023 Was TUPE'D 10 year ago and in my experience regs not worth the paper they're written on. New employers just change whatever conditions they want and there's nothing you can do about it...either sign up or move out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Real Maroonblood Posted January 15, 2023 Share Posted January 15, 2023 2 minutes ago, sinks said: Was TUPE'D 10 year ago and in my experience regs not worth the paper they're written on. New employers just change whatever conditions they want and there's nothing you can do about it...either sign up or move out If that’s how it works the UK Government will just leave it as it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankblack Posted January 15, 2023 Share Posted January 15, 2023 Just now, The Real Maroonblood said: If that’s how it works the UK Government will just leave it as it is. It pretty much is in my experience. Sign the contract or you are out at the end of the month. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Dastardly Posted January 15, 2023 Author Share Posted January 15, 2023 19 hours ago, frankblack said: Not sure that is totally accurate. Happened to me in 2010. Had to sign a new contract within a month or be made redundant. If made redundant I'm not sure if it was on their terms or old employer. From what I've read (and maybe misunderstood) your employment ia meant to just carry on as if nothing had changed. The legislation also states that i should be informed about the change of ownership. The fact that customers are telling me the shop has been sold and not the owners is partly the issue here as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Dastardly Posted January 15, 2023 Author Share Posted January 15, 2023 17 hours ago, periodictabledancer said: https://www.acas.org.uk/employee-rights-during-a-tupe-transfer/changing-your-employment-contract-after-a-tupe-transfer#:~:text=TUPE regulations give some protection,is unrelated to the transfer. If the main reason for a contract change is the transfer Your new employer can only make changes because of the transfer if either: they improve your terms and conditions, for example your employer increases your holiday entitlement (annual leave) there is an 'economic, technical or organisational' (ETO) reason involving a change in the workforce, for example your organisation needs restructuring TUPE regulations give some protection to your terms and conditions for an indefinite period. For example, if your new employer wants to change your terms and conditions 10 years later, they’d still need a valid reason for the change that is unrelated to the transfer. So they could juat say there isn't enough work to go round? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Dastardly Posted January 15, 2023 Author Share Posted January 15, 2023 2 hours ago, stevie1874 said: For a small business, if they were selling you would think they would keep the employees informed in what’s happening. For a very small business which sounds like your workplace, you’re bound to have been mentioned by both sides when sale was discussed. First thing I’d be doing is quizzing present employers but as others have said I’d tread carefully with new employers until you decide if it’s for you or not. Good luck. Yeah, I'll just have to see what the new employers are like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Dastardly Posted January 15, 2023 Author Share Posted January 15, 2023 6 minutes ago, frankblack said: It pretty much is in my experience. Sign the contract or you are out at the end of the month. If that's the case I'll just wait a few months and then start bricking the windows..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddysBar Posted January 15, 2023 Share Posted January 15, 2023 33 minutes ago, Dick Dastardly said: So they could juat say there isn't enough work to go round? They could. Say for example a medium sized company took over another medium sized company. The now larger company won’t need two HR teams, two payroll teams etc. so will either try to find other roles for them or make them redundant. I deal with TUPE transfers a lot (but not on the legal advice side so can’t help the OP unfortunately). In my experience the new employer won’t try to shaft the transferring employees in holidays, pension, other benefits etc. and will either move them to their own terms / benefits if more generous, or honour any more generous terms the transferring employee had (that’s all taken into account when negotiating the sale price anyway). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
periodictabledancer Posted January 15, 2023 Share Posted January 15, 2023 39 minutes ago, Dick Dastardly said: So they could juat say there isn't enough work to go round? There's nothing to stop someone being made redundant if the company/business can justify it , TUPE or not. Where TUPE might come into play in that scenario is that your previous employer's redundancy scheme payments (assuming there was such a scheme- and not just a legal minimum payment) comes into play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Dastardly Posted January 15, 2023 Author Share Posted January 15, 2023 I just wanted to say thanks to everyone for their input Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted January 15, 2023 Share Posted January 15, 2023 37 minutes ago, Dick Dastardly said: I just wanted to say thanks to everyone for their input good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Dastardly Posted January 15, 2023 Author Share Posted January 15, 2023 7 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said: good luck As long as i get a different job coach at the dole it might not be that bad 😂😂😂😂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted January 15, 2023 Share Posted January 15, 2023 59 minutes ago, Dick Dastardly said: As long as i get a different job coach at the dole it might not be that bad 😂😂😂😂 Who ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Dastardly Posted January 15, 2023 Author Share Posted January 15, 2023 1 minute ago, JudyJudyJudy said: Who ??? You're not far off. An absolutely abysmal "human". I've a good mind to take a hidden camera in with me, if i ever have to go back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted January 15, 2023 Share Posted January 15, 2023 22 minutes ago, Dick Dastardly said: You're not far off. An absolutely abysmal "human". I've a good mind to take a hidden camera in with me, if i ever have to go back. Oh I can imagine . I had a restart officer years ago , but she was really nice 👌 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D4nny_ Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 (edited) On 14/01/2023 at 19:54, periodictabledancer said: https://www.acas.org.uk/employee-rights-during-a-tupe-transfer/changing-your-employment-contract-after-a-tupe-transfer#:~:text=TUPE regulations give some protection,is unrelated to the transfer. If the main reason for a contract change is the transfer Your new employer can only make changes because of the transfer if either: they improve your terms and conditions, for example your employer increases your holiday entitlement (annual leave) there is an 'economic, technical or organisational' (ETO) reason involving a change in the workforce, for example your organisation needs restructuring TUPE regulations give some protection to your terms and conditions for an indefinite period. For example, if your new employer wants to change your terms and conditions 10 years later, they’d still need a valid reason for the change that is unrelated to the transfer. I’ve managed TUPE process and been subjected to it a couple of times, all in previous roles. This pretty much sums it up. Your incumbent employer will provide ELI data which is everything relating to your Ts&Cs. Make sure you have a copy of your current contract and everything matches with their information (simple things like annual leave entitlement, overtime rates, etc). One thing I would say is try not to worry about it and seek professional advice if you’re unsure. Edited January 17, 2023 by D4nny_ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Dastardly Posted May 19, 2023 Author Share Posted May 19, 2023 Sacked! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Dan Posted May 19, 2023 Share Posted May 19, 2023 9 minutes ago, Dick Dastardly said: Sacked! Have you spoken to an employment lawyer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted May 19, 2023 Share Posted May 19, 2023 On 14/01/2023 at 22:25, WorldChampions1902 said: I have been TUPE’d many times. My current employer just invokes Fire & Re-Hire to make whatever contract changes it desires. This Junta promised to legislate against such unsavoury practice, following the P&O debacle. Nothing has changed and nothing is going to change. Can’t wait for all the other employment deregulations to arrive over the next few years. Thank god I retire soon. Correct. TUPE really only exists on paper and it is routinely ignored. Then you are faced with either fighting them at a tribunal or accepting the shite new contracts or being made redundant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Dastardly Posted May 19, 2023 Author Share Posted May 19, 2023 10 minutes ago, Imaman said: Have you spoken to an employment lawyer? Not yet, it only happened half an hour ago Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Dastardly Posted May 19, 2023 Author Share Posted May 19, 2023 8 minutes ago, Cade said: Correct. TUPE really only exists on paper and it is routinely ignored. Then you are faced with either fighting them at a tribunal or accepting the shite new contracts or being made redundant. Or putting superglue in their locks and panning their windows, allegedly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Dan Posted May 20, 2023 Share Posted May 20, 2023 20 hours ago, Dick Dastardly said: Not yet, it only happened half an hour ago Hope you get a good outcome after being so badly treated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Dastardly Posted May 20, 2023 Author Share Posted May 20, 2023 15 minutes ago, Imaman said: Hope you get a good outcome after being so badly treated. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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