Gay Bishops

[Deek]

I was slightly disturbed by the news clip, not the fact that the Bishop is gay.And I know it was in the middle of sermon, but the way the man in the congregation making his point was drowned out by organised song and ushered out of the church. It was almost suppresion of free speech in a church. Almost like Scientology or the extreme Islamic's.

 

Has the Church of England now excepted that God would allow Homosexuality in his church? I am not homophobic and except that the gay people in this world have the right to live their life like the heterosexual population and should not be treated any differently.

 

But contrary to the above paragraph I was brought up a Christian and the bible and commandments were taught to me at school and out with.It surprises me then,that in the space of 30 years the church of England has appeared to open its arms to Homosexuals which I was always told was a sin in Gods eyes.

 

My question to you then is, are the church right to include homosexual's into the church or is it contrary to the teachings in the bible.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7504484.stm

[Therapist]

Personally, I think it's contrary to the teachings in the Bible. I think the CoE is facing the unenviable task of reconciling the scriptures against today's PC world.

[cosanostra]

The guy is entitled to free speech but surely not when the bishop guy was in the middle of his talk. He interupted the guy and started shouting like a nutter, he was right to be thrown out. As well as being aggressive and disorderly, the guy also had girly long hair and looked like a complete tosser.

 

As for gayness / the bible, i don't know. I do think homophobic people hiding their prejudice by playing the religous card are nasty and cowardly though.

[Therapist]

Don't know if anyone saw the report on BBC this morning but Pope Benny is in Oz and is apologising profusely for child abuse scandals (must get a bit tiring doing that everywhere he visits).

 

Anyway, the Oz authorities have effectively put Sydney on lockdown so protestors can't get anywhere near him.

[Sir Digby Chicken Caesar]

A gay bishop is like a black man wearing a KKK costume.

 

I am not religeous, so i don't really care being honest, But if he believes the bible (I am assuming he does as he's a bishop) then he has to know that god doesn't like homo's, i think it's one of the commandments? man shall not lie with another man etc. So why did the person who was shouting get thrown out, and not the person who has went against what he teaches to those that believe in the bible?

[felix]

 

My question to you then is, are the church right to include homosexual's into the church or is it contrary to the teachings in the bible.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7504484.stm

 

If the church want to retain any popularilty or signifcance then they're right to include homosexuals. Yes it's contrary to teachings in the bible but then so is eating shellfish.

[cosanostra]

A gay bishop is like a black man wearing a KKK costume.

 

I am not religeous, so i don't really care being honest, But if he believes the bible (I am assuming he does as he's a bishop) then he has to know that god doesn't like homo's, i think it's one of the commandments? man shall not lie with another man etc. So why did the person who was shouting get thrown out, and not the person who has went against what he teaches to those that believe in the bible?

 

I know very little about religeon but i don't think your post is true at all.

 

I don't think that is a commandment and i'm pretty sure that the bible does not say that "god doesn't like ******".

[felix]

double post

[coppercrutch]

Gay Bishops you say !!!

 

Next you'll be telling us there are gay priests.....

[K1874M]

I was slightly disturbed by the news clip, not the fact that the Bishop is gay.And I know it was in the middle of sermon, but the way the man in the congregation making his point was drowned out by organised song and ushered out of the church. It was almost suppresion of free speech in a church. Almost like Scientology or the extreme Islamic's.

 

Has the Church of England now excepted that God would allow Homosexuality in his church? I am not homophobic and except that the gay people in this world have the right to live their life like the heterosexual population and should not be treated any differently.

 

But contrary to the above paragraph I was brought up a Christian and the bible and commandments were taught to me at school and out with.It surprises me then,that in the space of 30 years the church of England has appeared to open its arms to Homosexuals which I was always told was a sin in Gods eyes.

 

My question to you then is, are the church right to include homosexual's into the church or is it contrary to the teachings in the bible.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7504484.stm

 

Surely you arent surprised about the church changing its stance on something.

 

If it became PC and the norm to shag dogs they'd change their beliefs... thats the joy of fiction.

[Miller Jambo 60]

A gay bishop is like a black man wearing a KKK costume.

 

I am not religeous, so i don't really care being honest, But if he believes the bible (I am assuming he does as he's a bishop) then he has to know that god doesn't like homo's, i think it's one of the commandments? man shall not lie with another man etc. So why did the person who was shouting get thrown out, and not the person who has went against what he teaches to those that believe in the bible?

 

thought they were all bent:107years:

[The Doctor]

Wow, that was something else.

 

What can I say?

 

The protester had a right to voice his opinion, but I don't think that was the time or the place to do it, although I'm quite glad he did, not because I necessarily agree with him, but because the issue needs to be debated and it needs to be brought to the fore. He's certainly achieved bringing it to the public eye.

 

For what's it's worth here's my interpretation of what the bible says about homosexual practice. It's a sin, it's one of many sins and is no worse or better than any other sin.

 

But the bible also says, implicitly, that sex outwith marriage is a sin. In fact the only righteous and holy outlet for sexual behaviour is within marriage. If you're single, if you're widowed, you're called to be celibate. If you're married you're called to be faithful. This appears unrealistic I know, but this call is for Christians, not for the general population. What you do, if you're not a Christian, is entirely up to you, I wouldn't even begin to judge you for your sexual behaviour. In fact it's not my place to judge anybody, but the Word of God calls believers to those sexual standards, celibacy before marriage, faithfulness within it.

 

God does not hate homosexuals. God loves homosexuals. I would not want to be part of a church where homosexuals were not welcomed, but I believe gay Christians are called to be celibate, as are unmarried Christians.

 

If this bishop is celibate, there's absolutely no problem, if he's not then I would suggest that he's not fit to be a leader in the church. But, and this is crucial, I would say exactly the same if he was unmarried. If he was single and having sex with a woman outside of marriage I'd have exactly the same issue.

 

His sexual orientation is therefore pretty irrelevant.

 

The question moves on then to whether the church should endorse gay marriage. That is a far more contentious and potentially dangerous issue in my opinion. I'd say no. In my opinion there is no biblical precedent for gay marriage, but I have Christian friends who would argue that there is and that the only biblical stipulation and criteria for marriage is love and that where there is love it should be encouraged and allowed to flourish. Whilst I understand their argument and I agree that generally love and monogamous relationships are a good thing, I can't accept that gay marriage is equal in the eyes of God to heterosexual marriage.

 

The problem with this call to celibacy is that for too long the church has swept under the carpet sexual immorality. Heterosexual immorality has become acceptable to the church and the result is that they've gotten themselves into a fankle over homosexuality, like homosexual sin is somehow worse, it isn't.

 

Above all else, Christians are called to follow Jesus, they receive forgiveness for their sins and subsequently reflect their righteousness in their actions. Their actions don't make them righteous, rather they are made righteous by Jesus and then reflect that righteous in their lifestyle.

[King of the North]

Wow, that was something else.

 

What can I say?

 

The protester had a right to voice his opinion, but I don't think that was the time or the place to do it, although I'm quite glad he did, not because I necessarily agree with him, but because the issue needs to be debated and it needs to be brought to the fore. He's certainly achieved bringing it to the public eye.

 

For what's it's worth here's my interpretation of what the bible says about homosexual practice. It's a sin, it's one of many sins and is no worse or better than any other sin.

 

But the bible also says, implicitly, that sex outwith marriage is a sin. In fact the only righteous and holy outlet for sexual behaviour is within marriage. If you're single, if you're widowed, you're called to be celibate. If you're married you're called to be faithful. This appears unrealistic I know, but this call is for Christians, not for the general population. What you do, if you're not a Christian, is entirely up to you, I wouldn't even begin to judge you for your sexual behaviour. In fact it's not my place to judge anybody, but the Word of God calls believers to those sexual standards, celibacy before marriage, faithfulness within it.

 

God does not hate homosexuals. God loves homosexuals. I would not want to be part of a church where homosexuals were not welcomed, but I believe gay Christians are called to be celibate, as are unmarried Christians.

 

If this bishop is celibate, there's absolutely no problem, if he's not then I would suggest that he's not fit to be a leader in the church. But, and this is crucial, I would say exactly the same if he was unmarried. If he was single and having sex with a woman outside of marriage I'd have exactly the same issue.

 

His sexual orientation is therefore pretty irrelevant.

 

The question moves on then to whether the church should endorse gay marriage. That is a far more contentious and potentially dangerous issue in my opinion. I'd say no. In my opinion there is no biblical precedent for gay marriage, but I have Christian friends who would argue that there is and that the only biblical stipulation and criteria for marriage is love and that where there is love it should be encouraged and allowed to flourish. Whilst I understand their argument and I agree that generally love and monogamous relationships are a good thing, I can't accept that gay marriage is equal in the eyes of God to heterosexual marriage.

 

The problem with this call to celibacy is that for too long the church has swept under the carpet sexual immorality. Heterosexual immorality has become acceptable to the church and the result is that they've gotten themselves into a fankle over homosexuality, like homosexual sin is somehow worse, it isn't.

 

Above all else, Christians are called to follow Jesus, they receive forgiveness for their sins and subsequently reflect their righteousness in their actions. Their actions don't make them righteous, rather they are made righteous by Jesus and then reflect that righteous in their lifestyle.

 

Wow. Amazing how 'faith' can simply obliterate common sense.

 

My two cents - Church and Homosexuality don't go. Sounds old fashioned, maybe, but if you want to be in 'the church' then it strikes me you have to follow the rules. Surely... if you care about it enough to devote your life to organised religion then you have to do what it says on the tin.

 

If you want to be gay, christianity is a no no. If I joined a club then started campaiging for my right to break the rules, I'd expect to be kicked out, no?

 

I have no problem with homosexuality - whereas there are massive issues surrounding organised religion. Why would you want to 'join' some organisation where you were excluded by it's very constitution?

[I P Knightley]

Deek (and others),

 

I think you should stop bashing the bishop.

 

No good will come of it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[cosanostra]

Wow. Amazing how 'faith' can simply obliterate common sense.

 

My two cents - Church and Homosexuality don't go. Sounds old fashioned, maybe, but if you want to be in 'the church' then it strikes me you have to follow the rules. Surely... if you care about it enough to devote your life to organised religion then you have to do what it says on the tin.

 

If you want to be gay, christianity is a no no. If I joined a club then started campaiging for my right to break the rules, I'd expect to be kicked out, no?

 

I have no problem with homosexuality - whereas there are massive issues surrounding organised religion. Why would you want to 'join' some organisation where you were excluded by it's very constitution?

 

That's the beauty of religeon and the bible.

 

The overall messages are usually similar but the details and finer points are so vague that it's easy to pick and choose the bits that you like and dislike and then make a church that suits your needs. You could probably back up any viewpoint with biblical quotes depending on your agenda.

[The Doctor]

Wow. Amazing how 'faith' can simply obliterate common sense.

 

My two cents - Church and Homosexuality don't go. Sounds old fashioned, maybe, but if you want to be in 'the church' then it strikes me you have to follow the rules. Surely... if you care about it enough to devote your life to organised religion then you have to do what it says on the tin.

 

If you want to be gay, christianity is a no no. If I joined a club then started campaiging for my right to break the rules, I'd expect to be kicked out, no?

 

I have no problem with homosexuality - whereas there are massive issues surrounding organised religion. Why would you want to 'join' some organisation where you were excluded by it's very constitution?

 

You seem to think that these are all choice issues, that people want to be gay, or choose to be Christians. What if these choices are an illusion?

 

You also seem to think that Christianity is about following rules, we did this two weeks ago, Christianity is not about following rules.

 

Christianity is also not a club or an organisation and Christianity does not have a constitution.

[Sir Digby Chicken Caesar]

I know very little about religeon but i don't think your post is true at all.

 

I don't think that is a commandment and i'm pretty sure that the bible does not say that "god doesn't like ******".

 

Struck a nerve did it?

 

But i guess it helps if you just quote a random part of a post, excluding "man shall not lie with another man etc" which i think in simple terms, god doesn't like homo's... as you say though "the details and finer points are so vague"

[Acey]

Struck a nerve did it?

 

Resorting to, "lol your gay". Well done.

 

[cosanostra]

Struck a nerve did it?

 

But i guess it helps if you just quote a random part of a post, excluding "man shall not lie with another man etc" which i think in simple terms, god doesn't like homo's... as you say though "the details and finer points are so vague"

 

What, you inventing commandments or posting stuff that you just made up?

 

I can see that you are skilled in the art of debate.

[Sir Digby Chicken Caesar]

what stuff did i just make up?... i said i think it was one of the commandments, but yeah, i can see how the use of a question mark would confuse you.

[Ulysses]

what stuff did i just make up?... i said i think it was one of the commandments, but yeah, i can see how the use of a question mark would confuse you.

 

"Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's husband's ass" is the reference you're looking for.

 

[Patrick Bateman]

Yes, people are entitled to their opinions, but to express them during a church service is pretty out of line in my opinion. Why would you go to church just to insult someone? There is nothing brave, moral or just in doing something like that.

[geddy]

"men who lie with men will not inherit the kingdom of god!"

Gay lifestyle is against the ruling of god.

Don't like that statement?

You think I am hobophobic?

 

Well get over yourself!!!!!!

The same text says that "drunkards, idolators and fornicators" won't inherit the kingdom either.

 

However I am not a whinging greeting faced **** that wants everything my own way .

I am DOOMED according to scripture. If I was to start the "drunken fornicators church of god" where all drunks and fornicators can come along cos we have chopped the bits out we don't like, I would say we would be fooling ourselves.

You either believe or you don't!

Throwing a hissy fit and taking out the bits you don't like is FUTILE!!

Gay folk...live your life, have fun, be who you want to be....but don't attempt to make yourselves "holy"

You are condemned...get over it....I have!

[Sir Digby Chicken Caesar]

"Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's husband's ass" is the reference you're looking for.

 

 

I was quite close, but also so far away at the same time

[Spitonastranger]

Personally, I think it's contrary to the teachings in the Bible. I think the CoE is facing the unenviable task of reconciling the scriptures against today's PC world.

scriptures written by people like you:confused:

[Spitonastranger]

Wow, that was something else.

 

What can I say?

 

The protester had a right to voice his opinion, but I don't think that was the time or the place to do it, although I'm quite glad he did, not because I necessarily agree with him, but because the issue needs to be debated and it needs to be brought to the fore. He's certainly achieved bringing it to the public eye.

 

For what's it's worth here's my interpretation of what the bible says about homosexual practice. It's a sin, it's one of many sins and is no worse or better than any other sin.

 

But the bible also says, implicitly, that sex outwith marriage is a sin. In fact the only righteous and holy outlet for sexual behaviour is within marriage. If you're single, if you're widowed, you're called to be celibate. If you're married you're called to be faithful. This appears unrealistic I know, but this call is for Christians, not for the general population. What you do, if you're not a Christian, is entirely up to you, I wouldn't even begin to judge you for your sexual behaviour. In fact it's not my place to judge anybody, but the Word of God calls believers to those sexual standards, celibacy before marriage, faithfulness within it.

 

God does not hate homosexuals. God loves homosexuals. I would not want to be part of a church where homosexuals were not welcomed, but I believe gay Christians are called to be celibate, as are unmarried Christians.

 

If this bishop is celibate, there's absolutely no problem, if he's not then I would suggest that he's not fit to be a leader in the church. But, and this is crucial, I would say exactly the same if he was unmarried. If he was single and having sex with a woman outside of marriage I'd have exactly the same issue.

 

His sexual orientation is therefore pretty irrelevant.

 

The question moves on then to whether the church should endorse gay marriage. That is a far more contentious and potentially dangerous issue in my opinion. I'd say no. In my opinion there is no biblical precedent for gay marriage, but I have Christian friends who would argue that there is and that the only biblical stipulation and criteria for marriage is love and that where there is love it should be encouraged and allowed to flourish. Whilst I understand their argument and I agree that generally love and monogamous relationships are a good thing, I can't accept that gay marriage is equal in the eyes of God to heterosexual marriage.

 

The problem with this call to celibacy is that for too long the church has swept under the carpet sexual immorality. Heterosexual immorality has become acceptable to the church and the result is that they've gotten themselves into a fankle over homosexuality, like homosexual sin is somehow worse, it isn't.

 

Above all else, Christians are called to follow Jesus, they receive forgiveness for their sins and subsequently reflect their righteousness in their actions. Their actions don't make them righteous, rather they are made righteous by Jesus and then reflect that righteous in their lifestyle.

 

so let him get married in his church, if he has a partner, what about women bishops do you agree with that:)

[Spitonastranger]

You seem to think that these are all choice issues, that people want to be gay, or choose to be Christians. What if these choices are an illusion?

 

You also seem to think that Christianity is about following rules, we did this two weeks ago, Christianity is not about following rules.

 

Christianity is also not a club or an organisation and Christianity does not have a constitution.

 

 

Then why do they act like private clubs run by private cliques:sad:

[The Doctor]

Then why do they act like private clubs run by private cliques:sad:

 

They shouldn't.

 

Churches should be welcoming and inclusive and friendly and open. If you or anyone else came into the church I go to, I hope you'd be made welcome. I'd welcome you!

 

As for women bishops, I have no problem with women in any kind of leadership role within the church. I'm not sure whether I agree with bishops at all, we don't have then in the national church (CofS) or in the Baptist church, of which I am a member. The Episcopal Church has bishops, but they're members of the Anglican community.

 

The question of women bishops is therefore a bit of a moot point for me, I would say the same of women priests, I don't believe that the priesthood is a valid role in Christianity so whether the priest is a woman or not is kind of irrelevant. Jesus is my priest, in as much as he is the conduit between God and I, it is Jesus who forgives my sins, who hears my confession, who mediates between God and I.

 

As I said, I have no problem with women in pastoral ministry, leading the church and being fully equal in the eyes of God with men.

[Tynie b]

Who cares, There's no such thing as "God"...FFS, Intelegent people,Most of them,Although I've said before, Relious Nuts are this way because they have something to hide or are Socially inadequate, Believing in some nonsence made up 1000's of years ago to scare the uneducated into line...Still working with some I see!!

[Mark_HMFC]

Who cares, There's no such thing as "God"...FFS, Intelegent people,Most of them,Although I've said before, Relious Nuts are this way because they have something to hide or are Socially inadequate, Believing in some nonsence made up 1000's of years ago to scare the uneducated into line...Still working with some I see!!

 

Special needs poster of the week

[Debtor]

Who cares, There's no such thing as "God"...FFS, Intelegent people,Most of them,Although I've said before, Relious Nuts are this way because they have something to hide or are Socially inadequate, Believing in some nonsence made up 1000's of years ago to scare the uneducated into line...Still working with some I see!!

 

 

The educated would spell nonsense 'nonsense actually.

 

But how are folk scared into line?

By whom? To what end?

[Sherlock]

‘It has served us well, this myth of Christ’ - Pope Leo X.

[Tynie b]

The educated would spell nonsense 'nonsense actually.

 

But how are folk scared into line?

By whom? To what end?

 

Well done on the spelling...

 

Religion is based on fear...Fear of what this made up "Person" will do if you don't follow "Him"...Plague, Pestulance (I'll let you check the spelling of that!)

Fire, Flood...By Whom? By the Freaky Godbotherers who started this pesh 1000's of years ago...To What end?? Fek knows, Only chumps who follow "God" "allah" "Jehova" call it what you will, will know to what end!!

 

Religion is Evil...Plain and simple !!

[Sheriff Fatman]

You seem to think that these are all choice issues, that people want to be gay, or choose to be Christians. What if these choices are an illusion?

 

Of course being a Christain is a choice, but it usually one taken in ignorance without bothering to look at all the alternatives. The same goes for every other religion too, the vast majority of adherants don't bother to look in detail at what other religions are or mean.

[cosanostra]

Of course being a Christain is a choice, but it usually one taken in ignorance without bothering to look at all the alternatives.

 

It's usually brainwashed into them from an early age. I don't know too many people who have decided to become christians or muslims iduring adulthood. ]

 

Brainwashing children is immoral.

[Craigieboy]

Religious people who want a say about everyones sexual orientation/activities are more perverted than anyone.

 

Religion in general is obsessed with sex, to a worrying level.

 

.

[The Doctor]

Of course being a Christain is a choice, but it usually one taken in ignorance without bothering to look at all the alternatives. The same goes for every other religion too, the vast majority of adherants don't bother to look in detail at what other religions are or mean.

 

John 15:16 (New International Version)

 

16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last.

 

 

Romans 8:29 (New International Version)

 

29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

 

Just two of many bible verses that would suggest that becoming a Christian is not simply a choice.

 

As for most Christians being brainwashed as children and not too many people becoming Christians in adulthood I would completely dispute that. In fact many people brought up in Christian homes reject the faith of their parents and every Christian has to come to faith of their own volition regardless of whether they were brought up in a Christian household. I know many people who became Christians as adults and I would say that every true believer came to that belief as a cognitive adult.

 

I was 19 when I became a Christian and my faith and understanding has only grown throughout my adult life.

[Craigieboy]

John 15:16 (New International Version)

 

16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last.

 

 

Romans 8:29 (New International Version)

 

29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

 

Just two of many bible verses that would suggest that becoming a Christian is not simply a choice.

 

every Christian has to come to faith of their own volition regardless of whether they were brought up in a Christian household.

 

Is what you put down there not a bit contradictory?

 

Honestly asking as I have never understood the 'you are chosen' version of christianity.

 

.

[JamboJay]

Never mind the gay bishop's controvery.

 

I will only take organised religion seiously (and even then I'd have major reservations) when either of the 'Big Two' players the Catolic Church and them Moslems allow women the opportunity for the Big jobs.

 

How can any religion ignore the fact that the human race is 50/50 men & women and we are supposed to be equal then deny one half of the human race because of their physiology means that they are still living in the Middle Ages and thereby not worthy of consideration.

 

At least the C of S have promoted the odd female to Moderator, as far as I am aware the position of Moderator is just not a true leader (ie CEO) more chairman of the board.

[Sheriff Fatman]

John 15:16 (New International Version)

 

16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit?fruit that will last.

 

 

Romans 8:29 (New International Version)

 

29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

 

Just two of many bible verses that would suggest that becoming a Christian is not simply a choice.

 

As for most Christians being brainwashed as children and not too many people becoming Christians in adulthood I would completely dispute that. In fact many people brought up in Christian homes reject the faith of their parents and every Christian has to come to faith of their own volition regardless of whether they were brought up in a Christian household. I know many people who became Christians as adults and I would say that every true believer came to that belief as a cognitive adult.

 

I was 19 when I became a Christian and my faith and understanding has only grown throughout my adult life.

 

So all the talk of God giving man free will is wrong then. People chose to be Christian, Muslim, Buddist, Hindu, any of the various sects of any organised religion, Agnostic or Atheist. The vast majority of those who choose any one of those options do so without knowing or understanding any of the other alternatives.

[The Doctor]

Is what you put down there not a bit contradictory?

 

Honestly asking as I have never understood the 'you are chosen' version of christianity.

 

.

 

No, it's a relationship between the revelation of the truth and the conviction of your sin, both come about through the Holy Spirit, who reveals these to you.

 

You then respond or reject that gospel. Whether you can reject it if the truth is revealed to you is a matter of debate.

 

I said that it wasn't simply a choice and earlier that choice may be an illusion. What I think is that both of these things are true at the same time, you are both chosen and choose.

 

If it's just about us choosing to believe then that undermines God's sovereignty and His omnipotence, but if we don't get to make a decision then we are just like robots and free will is undermined. So there is an uneasy tension created by this paradox and like many thing in Christian life, the Christian lives out their life in the tension created by that paradox.

 

This has been one of the central arguments of Christian theology for almost 2,000 years. Pelageous and Augustine argued about it, Armenius and Calvin argued about it and the debate rages on today. There are churches who go to one extreme or the other, the 'delightful' people of Westboro Baptist ( http://www.godhatesfags.com ) are extreme Calvinists, Evangelicals would tend towards favouring free will and so partake in active evangelism and outreach.

 

Can apparently opposing philosophies both be true at the same time?

 

Does it always have to be one or the other at the exclusion of the other?

[I P Knightley]

"Brainwashed" is probably too strong a term to use here.

 

However, if God is choosing people to follow Him and be Christians, how come he doesn't choose folk from the Middle East?

 

Hmm?

 

 

Hmmm?

[Craigieboy]

No, it's a relationship between the revelation of the truth and the conviction of your sin, both come about through the Holy Spirit, who reveals these to you.

 

You then respond or reject that gospel. Whether you can reject it if the truth is revealed to you is a matter of debate.

 

I said that it wasn't simply a choice and earlier that choice may be an illusion. What I think is that both of these things are true at the same time, you are both chosen and choose.

 

If it's just about us choosing to believe then that undermines God's sovereignty and His omnipotence, but if we don't get to make a decision then we are just like robots and free will is undermined. So there is an uneasy tension created by this paradox and like many thing in Christian life, the Christian lives out their life in the tension created by that paradox.

 

This has been one of the central arguments of Christian theology for almost 2,000 years. Pelageous and Augustine argued about it, Armenius and Calvin argued about it and the debate rages on today. There are churches who go to one extreme or the other, the 'delightful' people of Westboro Baptist ( http://www.godhatesfags.com ) are extreme Calvinists, Evangelicals would tend towards favouring free will and so partake in active evangelism and outreach.

 

Can apparently opposing philosophies both be true at the same time?

 

Does it always have to be one or the other at the exclusion of the other?

 

Ok mate. Interesting though complicated.

 

.

[Deek]

"Brainwashed" is probably too strong a term to use here.

 

However, if God is choosing people to follow Him and be Christians, how come he doesn't choose folk from the Middle East?

 

Hmm?

 

 

Hmmm?

 

It is the same god that Christians, Jews and Muslims worship.

 

It is the interpretation of Jesus and Mohammed that separate Christians and Muslims.

[Debtor]

Well done on the spelling...

 

Religion is based on fear...Fear of what this made up "Person" will do if you don't follow "Him"...Plague, Pestulance (I'll let you check the spelling of that!)

Fire, Flood...By Whom? By the Freaky Godbotherers who started this pesh 1000's of years ago...To What end?? Fek knows, Only chumps who follow "God" "allah" "Jehova" call it what you will, will know to what end!!

 

Religion is Evil...Plain and simple !!

 

 

 

Spelling, I was led to use 'Firefox,' as it has a automatic spell checker!

Driving cars and rearing children is based on 'fear.' Fear of danger on the roads and the accidents caused there. Fear of kids playing with fire or other dangers around them. Are these wrong? Christianity is based on the Love of God to folks who are not worth loving, me and you and anyone else who wants to investigate it and take it on. Fear of standing one day before a perfect Holy God who's very perfection means we cannot go near him, yes that's fear. And God shows his love by dying on our behalf to enable imperfect people to be acceptable to him so he can give to them a better life, that's love!

 

Plague and pestilence affect all of us, although not so much here. But when it rains we all get wet, Christians and others. We all suffer when Hearts lose, and rejoice when they win - if they ever win again!

 

There is no agenda, no ulterior motive, just a one to one with God through Jesus and his finished work on the cross. Consider it.

[Debtor]

It's usually brainwashed into them from an early age. I don't know too many people who have decided to become christians or muslims iduring adulthood. ]

 

Brainwashing children is immoral.

 

 

 

You meet comparatively few who have been brought up in it these days.

There will always be many but growing churches are filled with 'new blood,' and I reckon most have little if any connection to any church.

[Debtor]

"Brainwashed" is probably too strong a term to use here.

 

However, if God is choosing people to follow Him and be Christians, how come he doesn't choose folk from the Middle East?

 

Hmm?

 

 

Hmmm?

 

 

 

Is that a hymmmmmn your attempting there?

 

Folks from all over the world are becoming Christians. But why worry about them, investigate it yourself. I have met many Arabs who have become Christians and come to London annually to reach out to the Arabs holidaying there. Nearly all were Muslim and put their faith in Jesus. Most have suffered persecution, some I know will have died.

[I P Knightley]

Is that a hymmmmmn your attempting there?

 

Folks from all over the world are becoming Christians. But why worry about them, investigate it yourself. I have met many Arabs who have become Christians and come to London annually to reach out to the Arabs holidaying there. Nearly all were Muslim and put their faith in Jesus. Most have suffered persecution, some I know will have died.

 

Maybe I should tone down the facetiousness when posting.

 

My serious point is that many Christians claim that God chose them. That's fair enough, I appreciate the draw. However, when choosing people to follow Him, how come He focused on Europe? Surely as the almighty, counter of every hair on our heads, He could've extended his focus to the Middle East (where He put His son), the Indian sub-continent and other places. Would've saved an awful lot of hassle between competing religions and eliminated all the unpleasantness to which you allude when talking about converts from one religion to another.

 

I'm not certain which bit you're exhorting me to not worry about and investigate myself? As a London dweller, I'm well aware that there are folk practising Christianity whose skin colour would suggest they didn't start out along that route. I've also got Christian-tinged songs by Cat Stevens and an album by the Muslim, Yusuf Islam - the two sound pretty similar vocally What bit am I missing?

 

(Darn it - I may have let a little sly humour creep in there! Please don't think I'm having a pop; I'm genuinely intrigued.)

[Miller Jambo 60]

Is that a hymmmmmn your attempting there?

 

Folks from all over the world are becoming Christians. But why worry about them, investigate it yourself. I have met many Arabs who have become Christians and come to London annually to reach out to the Arabs holidaying there. Nearly all were Muslim and put their faith in Jesus. Most have suffered persecution, some I know will have died.

 

I will stick to VLAD.

He is MY GOD GORGIE RULE

 

You guys talk some rubbish

[Stupid Sexy Flanders]

the 'delightful' people of Westboro Baptist ( http://www.godhatesfags.com )

 

I saw them on Louis Therouix (sp?) a couple of weeks ago, absolute nutters every one of them! I felt really sorry for their kids.