Robbie!!! ( merged )

[S Form]

9 minutes ago, Robbies Tackle said:

Yep.  Once.

 

They beat us over 2 games from the league below and Rangers in the final.  That should have been us.  Instead you make stuff up about them getting lucky?  When have we ever beaten both the old firm teams on the way to winning a cup?  Are they all luck?

 

So you don't have confidence that the board would be able to replace Robbie sufficiently and you are scared who would come in?  That's fair enough but thats more of the boards fault than anything else. 

 

Finishing 3rd is an achievement.  Losing a cup final isn't.  Europe comes with finishing 3rd.  I wouldn't consider Jack Ross a successful manager would you?  His record is similar to Robbies. 

As I’ve said it seems completely illogical to replace a manager with a good track record on the off chance that we get someone who might be better. So far the ‘Robbie oot’ brigade - I know you’re not a member - have put forward the likes of Michael O’Neill as an alternative. They’ve also said that Stephen Robinson, Derek McInnes and  David Martindale are better managers. I have my doubts that any of them would have us in second place or guarantee us a cup win. In that case what would be the point of making a change?

[soonbe110]

18 minutes ago, Bongo 1874 said:

Genuine question for those that think we can't replace Robbie?

 

What usually happens when a vacancy for a job becomes available. 

Genuinely, when a club replaces a manager through choice they go backwards. 
Arsenal, ManU, Chelsea, Rangers perfect examples in recent times. Up here Dundee, Dundee Utd, Hamilton, two Thistles et al 
So the answer to your question is when a club changes manager, especially if they are not in relegation trouble, the vacancy created attracts lots of applicants and then the club go backwards. Time after time. Eventually they might get it right, just maybe.  Look at the clubs in the National Leagues that used to be top two leagues in England.  
 

In football you should always be careful what you ask for.  If indeed you are an ex-player you should know that. 

[Bongo 1874]

3 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

Genuinely, when a club replaces a manager through choice they go backwards. 
Arsenal, ManU, Chelsea, Rangers perfect examples in recent times. Up here Dundee, Dundee Utd, Hamilton, two Thistles et al 
So the answer to your question is when a club changes manager, especially if they are not in relegation trouble, the vacancy created attracts lots of applicants and then the club go backwards. Time after time. Eventually they might get it right, just maybe.  Look at the clubs in the National Leagues that used to be top two leagues in England.  
 

In football you should always be careful what you ask for.  If indeed you are an ex-player you should know that. 

I think personally it helps if the club has an identity a style they play, this means anyone coming in knows what is expected.

 

I don't know what we are as a club or what our identity is ?

 

It certainly isn't intensity. 

Edited October 15, 2022 by Bongo 1874

[soonbe110]

15 minutes ago, Bull's-eye said:

 

Only wages would be an issue I would imagine.

Plenty managers knocking around with a better pedigree than Robbie. Don't think I've read anyone say otherwise.

 

The fact that a lot of supporters think he can turn the form around and that he deserves to still be in the job tells me there's mitigating circumstances for the current form.

 

Couldn't care less either way tbh, he's not going anywhere soon so best to get behind the team and leave the negative shite at home.

 

Hibs job will available soon Bongo, you not fancy a wee tilt at it. You seem to hate Hearts enough to give it a go ?

Wages would be a huge issue.  Folk don’t seem to realise that a manager on much bigger wages than we usually pay will only come if we agree to sign players who command a much higher wage than we usually pay.  Otherwise their rep will get trashed pretty quickly. Recipe for disaster imo. 

[Jeffros Furios]

1 hour ago, frankblack said:

 

Please elaborate as that is defamation.  I manage numerous people from Asia so you better get your facts straight before you continue.

[Bull's-eye]

2 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

Wages would be a huge issue.  Folk don’t seem to realise that a manager on much bigger wages than we usually pay will only come if we agree to sign players who command a much higher wage than we usually pay.  Otherwise their rep will get trashed pretty quickly. Recipe for disaster imo. 

 

All common sense, wasted on here of course 😉

Edited October 15, 2022 by Bull's-eye

[soonbe110]

3 minutes ago, Bongo 1874 said:

I think personally it helps if the club has an identity a style they play, this means anyone coming in knows what is expected.

 

I don't know what we are as a club or what our identity is ?

 

It certainly isn't intensity. 

The clubs I mentioned in my earlier post had some of the biggest ‘identities’ in British football history so I don’t think that argument of yours flies. The new guys always want to do it their own way unfortunately. Understandable but usually fails. 

[Chevy Chase]

He’ll be loving you buying into this chat about being a former Hearts player.

 

He’s a complete fantasist.

 

 

[Bongo 1874]

2 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

The clubs I mentioned in my earlier post had some of the biggest ‘identities’ in British football history so I don’t think that argument of yours flies. The new guys always want to do it their own way unfortunately. Understandable but usually fails. 

Lifetime contract needed for Neilson then.

[soonbe110]

2 minutes ago, Bull's-eye said:

 

All common sense, wasted on here of course 😉

Indeed, it’s just a tragedy that common sense is not more commonly understood😂😂🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️   Football fans just can’t see the the woods for the trees. 

[soonbe110]

1 minute ago, Bongo 1874 said:

Lifetime contract needed for Neilson then.

Not so.  All managers have a shelf life. Even Fergie and Wenger outstared theirs.  Typically it’s 4-7 years. Even Klopp will go soon. Robbie will move on or be moved on sometime in next 2-3 years probably to a better job. 

[Bull's-eye]

5 minutes ago, Chevy Chase said:

He’ll be loving you buying into this chat about being a former Hearts player.

 

He’s a complete fantasist.

 

 

 

Don't say that, I've my autograph book ready ☹️

[Bongo 1874]

7 minutes ago, Chevy Chase said:

He’ll be loving you buying into this chat about being a former Hearts player.

 

He’s a complete fantasist.

 

 

 

Drop a pm and we can meet at next home game, or if you are going tomorrow.

 

And no not for a tear up🤣 just to chat football.

Edited October 15, 2022 by Bongo 1874

[JimmyCant]

13 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

Genuinely, when a club replaces a manager through choice they go backwards. 
Arsenal, ManU, Chelsea, Rangers perfect examples in recent times. Up here Dundee, Dundee Utd, Hamilton, two Thistles et al 
So the answer to your question is when a club changes manager, especially if they are not in relegation trouble, the vacancy created attracts lots of applicants and then the club go backwards. Time after time. Eventually they might get it right, just maybe.  Look at the clubs in the National Leagues that used to be top two leagues in England.  
 

In football you should always be careful what you ask for.  If indeed you are an ex-player you should know that. 

What a load of shite.

 

For every club who has gone backwards and really fecked themselves up (not just a settling in period) there are clubs who moved forward after a managerial change. 
 

The risk is not in the changing itself. The risk is in not picking the right incoming man. plenty clubs get it wrong, plenty get it right.

 

Going backwards is not and never has been an automatic consequence of voluntary changing of the manager

[jr ewing]

3 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

Not so.  All managers have a shelf life. Even Fergie and Wenger outstared theirs.  Typically it’s 4-7 years. Even Klopp will go soon. Robbie will move on or be moved on sometime in next 2-3 years probably to a better job. 

Hope it's sooner for all our sakes and the club 🙏 

[Bull's-eye]

1 minute ago, Bongo 1874 said:

 

Drop a pm and we can meet at next home game, or if you are going tomorrow.

 

And know not for a tear up🤣 just to chat football.

 

I'll be in the PR Bar before and after the Celtic game mate. Ask at the main entrance, as an ex player they'll let you in. See you there.

[Naisys Tackle]

3 minutes ago, Bongo 1874 said:

 

Drop a pm and we can meet at next home game, or if you are going tomorrow.

 

And no not for a tear up🤣 just to chat football.

  

[DH1986]

We’d replace almost every single player in the squad if we thought we were getting someone better which led to improved results and performances.

 

Yet the very thought of doing so with our manager is written off as ridiculous.

 

At some point Neilson will have done as much as he can so and we need to move on before other teams catch up….which is looking like it could be this season. We will finish further behind the Top 2, with fewer points than we achieved last seaso, losing more goals and scoring less. This will ultimately leave us closer to the rest….I also doubt we’ll win the SC with that squad.

 

This is most definitely a regression.

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

29 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

If it needs your ‘understanding’ it’s a biased survey before it starts. 😂😂

 

not the actual sample silly

 

the fundamental understanding why an outlier like fiorentina would likely not be the most reliable sample 

 

as I said straight forward with a bit of subject understanding 

[Fozzyonthefence]

7 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

Not so.  All managers have a shelf life. Even Fergie and Wenger outstared theirs.  Typically it’s 4-7 years. Even Klopp will go soon. Robbie will move on or be moved on sometime in next 2-3 years probably to a better job. 

There’s no chance Robbie will be moving to a better job.  Only 2 bigger jobs In Scotland and he hasn’t got a prayer for those.  He was a failure in England so there’s not going to be a stampede for him there either.  Hearts is the biggest job he’ll ever have. 

[soonbe110]

Just now, JimmyCant said:

What a load of shite.

 

For every club who has gone backwards and really fecked themselves up (not just a settling in period) there are clubs who moved forward after a managerial change. 
 

The risk is not in the changing itself. The risk is in not picking the right incoming man. plenty clubs get it wrong, plenty get it right.

 

Going backwards is not and never has been an automatic consequence of voluntary changing of the manager

Absolute rubbish. 80% of clubs go backwards every season.  A significant chunk of them go backwards the following season as well

Vast majority of management appointments in football are deemed failures.  Just check the stats.

 Just look at us and Hibs in recent times. Locke, Levein, Neilson, Cathro, Stendel, Butcher, Stubbs, Lennon, Heckinbottom, Ross, Maloney, Johnston 

How many will be judged to be successes? Not many I think. 
Not going to name them all but look at Dundee, Dundee United, Motherwell manager lists in recent years. 
Of the non-OF clubs Aberdeen have  probably done best with the stability that McInnes brought. 

[soonbe110]

2 minutes ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

There’s no chance Robbie will be moving to a better job.  Only 2 bigger jobs In Scotland and he hasn’t got a prayer for those.  He was a failure in England so there’s not going to be a stampede for him there either.  Hearts is the biggest job he’ll ever have. 

Time will tell.  I think he will have a higher earning job than ours but just my opinion. 

[Rampant]

48 minutes ago, Bongo 1874 said:

No it's been suggested that we can't replace Robbie with better.

 

I'm just intrigued how people come to this conclusion ,as they can't possibly know what sort of candidates, would apply for the job should it become available.

 

Maybe they don't hold the club in a very high regard i don't know.

 

Hopefully someone can tell me.

 

Perhaps they're learning from past experience?  Don't have to look too far back for the last time the club advertised the manager's job.  We were faced with a drawn out recruitment process in the middle of a season, eventually we appointed an initially exciting prospect, but it ultimately ended in disaster.  I'm sure you can remember that.

[jr ewing]

Just now, Rampant said:

 

Perhaps they're learning from past experience?  Don't have to look too far back for the last time the club advertised the manager's job.  We were faced with a drawn out recruitment process in the middle of a season, eventually we appointed an initially exciting prospect, but it ultimately ended in disaster.  I'm sure you can remember that.

Just picked the wrong one. Must do better. 

[Rampant]

33 minutes ago, Bongo 1874 said:

I think personally it helps if the club has an identity a style they play, this means anyone coming in knows what is expected.

 

I don't know what we are as a club or what our identity is ?

 

It certainly isn't intensity. 

 

Under Neilson, our club's identity tends to be one that wins more than it loses. As a club, we're the one that finishes above our rivals.

[Naisys Tackle]

4 minutes ago, Rampant said:

 

Perhaps they're learning from past experience?  Don't have to look too far back for the last time the club advertised the manager's job.  We were faced with a drawn out recruitment process in the middle of a season, eventually we appointed an initially exciting prospect, but it ultimately ended in disaster.  I'm sure you can remember that.

We never had a contempt DoF before.  Levein basically ran the footballing side and gave his pal the job then appointed himself.  He is long gone.  We would need to put trust in who we have in place now should the question be popped.

[Naisys Tackle]

2 minutes ago, Rampant said:

 

Under Neilson, our club's identity tends to be one that wins more than it loses. As a club, we're the one that finishes above our rivals.

You forgot about the "and rolls over easily, mainly without any trouble or fight to a club with more resources than us as well as never winning a trophy"

 

One word sums it up.  Missionary.  

[Rampant]

1 minute ago, Robbies Tackle said:

We never had a contempt DoF before.  Levein basically ran the footballing side and gave his pal the job then appointed himself.  He is long gone.  We would need to put trust in who we have in place now should the question be popped.

The process I'm talking about was after Levein had been sacked.  Which happened because only goal difference was keeping his team off the bottom of the table.  He wasn't a game in hand away from sitting 3rd...

[Rampant]

6 minutes ago, Robbies Tackle said:

You forgot about the "and rolls over easily, mainly without any trouble or fight to a club with more resources than us as well as never winning a trophy"

 

One word sums it up.  Missionary.  

He has had us closer to winning a cup, than any other manager we've had in the last 10 years, though. Twice, in fact. Both time against teams with much bigger resources than us.

Edited October 15, 2022 by Rampant

[Naisys Tackle]

Just now, Rampant said:

The process I'm talking about was after Levein had been sacked.  Which happened because only goal difference was keeping his team off the bottom of the table.  He wasn't a game in hand away from sitting 3rd...

The process was rushed and a shambles.  Because a bit like right now nobody on the board had planned or anticipated ever sacking Levein as Budge and others lapped up everything and every excuse he came out with.  We then hired a guy bottom of the league to get us out the mess and change the way we played while giving him severely limited backing.   That surely wouldnt happen again because the DoF now isnt also the manager (shambles as I said).  

 

[Naisys Tackle]

Just now, Rampant said:

He has had us closer to winning a cup, than any other manager we've had in the last 10 years, though. Twice, in fact.

Closer doesn't get us the open top bus though.  And for the close there's been Alloa Broara Hibs Killie and the Maltese part timers. 

[Rampant]

1 minute ago, Robbies Tackle said:

Closer doesn't get us the open top bus though.  And for the close there's been Alloa Broara Hibs Killie and the Maltese part timers. 

I know, but there are very few people in our history who have got us that open top bus, especially in the modern era.

 

I greatly hope Neilson can get that particular monkey off his back.  It's the one stick many people have left to beat him with.  Put the joy of winning a cup aside, I'd love him to win a trophy just to see some change in the debate here!

[jr ewing]

9 minutes ago, Rampant said:

The process I'm talking about was after Levein had been sacked.  Which happened because only goal difference was keeping his team off the bottom of the table.  He wasn't a game in hand away from sitting 3rd...

Come back after next Saturday. 

[Naisys Tackle]

1 minute ago, Rampant said:

I know, but there are very few people in our history who have got us that open top bus, especially in the modern era.

 

I greatly hope Neilson can get that particular monkey off his back.  It's the one stick many people have left to beat him with.  Put the joy of winning a cup aside, I'd love him to win a trophy just to see some change in the debate here!

Perhaps instead of you looking at it like people are using it as a stick to beat him with, the same people simply don't think he's got the ambition to set up a team to win a cup final?

 

Its a pretty big stick btw.  It usually a measure of how successful a manager is. 

[Jambo_jim2001]

Putting a diamond encrusted collar on a dud greyhound won't make it win any races😲 it is what it is, personally I can see what they are trying to build given the cash restraints and I hope for a better future HHGH

[Niemi’s gloves]

6 minutes ago, jr ewing said:

Come back after next Saturday. 

how big a defeat are you hoping for?

[jr ewing]

1 minute ago, Niemi’s gloves said:

how big a defeat are you hoping for?

Hope we try harder. 

[Rampant]

Just now, jr ewing said:

Come back after next Saturday. 

What are you expecting?  I think the worst we could end up at the end of Saturday is 4 points above bottom.  We're only 5 above currently?

[jr ewing]

1 minute ago, Rampant said:

What are you expecting?  I think the worst we could end up at the end of Saturday is 4 points above bottom.  We're only 5 above currently?

Not great is it 😕 

[Rampant]

6 minutes ago, Robbies Tackle said:

Perhaps instead of you looking at it like people are using it as a stick to beat him with, the same people simply don't think he's got the ambition to set up a team to win a cup final?

 

Its a pretty big stick btw.  It usually a measure of how successful a manager is. 

I don't think it's an unfair criticism. If it continues, if we start to regress, then yeah eventually we would need to change something.

 

But his cup record has improved, Brora was a disaster, but the cup game just before that we were a couple penalties away from winning. After Brora, he took us to the final, where a much stronger team needed extra time. Improvement?  Certainly is from his 1st spell.

 

The way he set his teams up got us closer to winning a cup than any manager in the last 10 years. And Paolo only had to get past Hibs. Another thing Neilson's managed to improve upon from his 1st spell.

[Rampant]

6 minutes ago, jr ewing said:

Not great is it 😕 

When you choose to ignore all context, I will admit it doesn't sound great.

[jr ewing]

1 minute ago, Rampant said:

When you choose to ignore all context, I will admit it doesn't sound great.

It is what it is. 🤷 

[Naisys Tackle]

5 minutes ago, Rampant said:

I don't think it's an unfair criticism. If it continues, if we start to regress, then yeah eventually we would need to change something.

 

But his cup record has improved, Brora was a disaster, but the cup game just before that we were a couple penalties away from winning. After Brora, he took us to the final, where a much stronger team needed extra time. Improvement?  Certainly is from his 1st spell.

 

The way he set his teams up got us closer to winning a cup than any manager in the last 10 years. And Paolo only had to get past Hibs. Another thing Neilson's managed to improve upon from his 1st spell.

Agree with most of that mate.  We set up in 2 Cup finals not to lose.  The final against Rangers all things considered was a complete shitbag performance.  The Semi the year before against Hibs and against Celtic was much much better though.  

[Naisys Tackle]

16 minutes ago, Rampant said:

What are you expecting?  I think the worst we could end up at the end of Saturday is 4 points above bottom.  We're only 5 above currently?

Then Dingwall the next weekend. 

[Bongo 1874]

53 minutes ago, Rampant said:

 

Under Neilson, our club's identity tends to be one that wins more than it loses. As a club, we're the one that finishes above our rivals.

So style of play what are we trying to achieve?

 

And has he won more than he has lost this season in all competitions ?

 

 

[Bongo 1874]

23 minutes ago, Rampant said:

I don't think it's an unfair criticism. If it continues, if we start to regress, then yeah eventually we would need to change something.

 

But his cup record has improved, Brora was a disaster, but the cup game just before that we were a couple penalties away from winning. After Brora, he took us to the final, where a much stronger team needed extra time. Improvement?  Certainly is from his 1st spell.

 

The way he set his teams up got us closer to winning a cup than any manager in the last 10 years. And Paolo only had to get past Hibs. Another thing Neilson's managed to improve upon from his 1st spell.

I'll challenge this if neilson has improved cup wise in his whole entire time at Hearts ,has he ever knocked out one of the old firm.

 

Now I'm sure we can agree this team is better than the one levein had / stendel so what's the problem?

[Bongo 1874]

27 minutes ago, Rampant said:

I don't think it's an unfair criticism. If it continues, if we start to regress, then yeah eventually we would need to change something.

 

But his cup record has improved, Brora was a disaster, but the cup game just before that we were a couple penalties away from winning. After Brora, he took us to the final, where a much stronger team needed extra time. Improvement?  Certainly is from his 1st spell.

 

The way he set his teams up got us closer to winning a cup than any manager in the last 10 years. And Paolo only had to get past Hibs. Another thing Neilson's managed to improve upon from his 1st spell.

You also mention Sergio, he's won a Scottish Cup as manager.

 

Under Neilson first spell Hibs went on to beat us, to win the Scottish Cup as a Scottish Championship team. 

 

The only manager in Hearts history to have been in charge, since hibs won that cup in 1902.

 

The last Edinburgh team to win it is Hibs, so tell me what has he improved?

 

That is unique did Jack dross not get hibs 3rd place or am i missing something.

 

Did Derek not finish twice ahead of Rangers with 2nd place finishes?

 

Can you tell me what he has improved?

 

 

 

[Naisys Tackle]

Sergio if am I'm not mistaken didn't "only have to beat Hibs" (In the greatest derby ever completely smashing them) but eliminated Celtic in the Semi?

[Rampant]

5 minutes ago, Bongo 1874 said:

You also mention Sergio, he's won a Scottish Cup as manager.

Yes, that's what I pointed out...  He won it over 10 years ago.  Neilson has had us closest since then.

 

5 minutes ago, Bongo 1874 said:

Under Neilson first spell Hibs went on to beat us, to win the Scottish Cup as a Scottish Championship team. 

 

The only manager in Hearts history to have been in charge, since hibs won that cup in 1902.

 

The last Edinburgh team to win it is Hibs, so tell me what has he improved?

Not what we were talking about but I'll bite.  I only mentioned Hibs to note that Neilson's results against them have improved. And in big games, like a season defining game (for Hibs), semi-finals, Neilson has put Hibs away when necessary.

 

He lost a 5th round tie against Hibs.  Poor, disappointing result.  He's won two semi-finals against them since. That is an improvement.  Hibs winning a cup is not the measure of a Hearts manager.  You go on about ambition but you linger on wanting to be better than Hibs.  Dream bigger.

 

 

5 minutes ago, Bongo 1874 said:

That is unique did Jack dross not get hibs 3rd place or am i missing something.

 

Did Derek not finish twice ahead of Rangers with 2nd place finishes?

Not what we're talking about and I don't understand why it's mentioned so I can't even bite.

 

5 minutes ago, Bongo 1874 said:

Can you tell me what he has improved?

Our results and the club's standing considerably since he took over as manager.

[Rampant]

11 minutes ago, Robbies Tackle said:

Sergio if am I'm not mistaken didn't "only have to beat Hibs" (In the greatest derby ever completely smashing them) but eliminated Celtic in the Semi?

Was a wee joke. Just really to highlight the infrequency of cup wins for Hearts (and anyone outside of the OF, it's worth noting).  If we (jokingly) discount Sergio's win because it was only Hibs, we have to go back a further 6 years. Then we go back a further 8.  Then way before I was born.  Yet people expect Neilson to have won however many within 5 years. 

 

What is a realistic target?  No cup in two years, you're out?  Regardless of league performance?

 

Paulo Sergio is, of course, a hero and I hold him in the highest regard.

Edited October 15, 2022 by Rampant