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Malinga the Swinga

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When I were a lad, (proper old now) Derby were a cracking team

A boy from my village in Wales, Terry Hennessy played for them. Dave Mackay too.

Always had a soft spot for them.

Rooney is a **** though

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Just now, John Findlay said:

Brian Clough.

 

Indeed.

 

Fantastic manager who managed simply.

 

What's the secret to building a good of team, Brian?

 

"Signing good players".

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6 minutes ago, martoon said:

 

Indeed.

 

Fantastic manager who managed simply.

 

What's the secret to building a good of team, Brian?

 

"Signing good players".

Not so good without Taylor.

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Just seen the highlights of their game yesterday and the stands were empty. When we entered admin the fans packed out Tynecastle to get as much gate money as possible. I never understand it when fans turn their back on the club they support during tough times.

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Nookie Bear
1 hour ago, DG_HMFC said:

Just seen the highlights of their game yesterday and the stands were empty. When we entered admin the fans packed out Tynecastle to get as much gate money as possible. I never understand it when fans turn their back on the club they support during tough times.


20k there with away allocation sold out. 
 

This the EFL problem: similar size clubs to us but paying their manager £46k/week and some players upwards of £20k/week. 
It’s all built on tv and a promise of EPL…and the standard is pretty poor as well. 

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jamboinglasgow

https://theathletic.com/2837909/2021/09/21/derbys-admin-bomb-what-now-for-players-rooney-and-the-club-can-it-survive/?source=twitteruk

 

looks even worse for Derby then it first appeared.

 

They have £50m of debts that cant be wiped out through admin, (£10m football debts, secured debt of £20m to an American equity firm and £30m to HMRC which under new laws passed recently means that two thirds has to be paid unlike before when HMRC become other creditors who get paid the final admin rate.)

 

In the article, one person close to the finances said its a 50/50 chance that the club is liquidated. Also says there was an expectation among football finance experts that the club would have been bought up before admin as it had enough going for it in terms of size and number of fans but now they think thats slim.

 

Also talks about Derby using every possible loophole to hide the debt and overspending (create subsidiary companies to move the debt into, selling the stadium to a company owned by the owner etc.) These are things that other clubs in the league are doing but nothing to the extent that Derby did.

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Stadium sold to fund spending on players which was the original reason for the FA investigation and other clubs and fans demanding points deductions. And part of the reason other clubs and fans don't care what happens to Derby now. 

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SectionDJambo

I can never understand how a football club can own millions to the Inland Revenue or Customs & Excise. When I was self employed running a wee business, if I was a day or so late with a payment they were on top of it.

Football clubs holding onto PAYE or NHI should be hounded immediately, especially since they will collect more than most because of the high wages. This has been going on for years, with many clubs, and it's really time that HMRC got on top of it to stop losing revenue that has been taken off the clubs' employees. Ultimately, the public have to pay to make up the losses that HMRC have failed to avoid.

It might also stop some of these clubs from living outwith their means and be sensible with their finances, if their payments were demanded on time.

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Rogue Daddy
1 hour ago, jamboinglasgow said:

https://theathletic.com/2837909/2021/09/21/derbys-admin-bomb-what-now-for-players-rooney-and-the-club-can-it-survive/?source=twitteruk

 

Also talks about Derby using every possible loophole to hide the debt and overspending (create subsidiary companies to move the debt into, selling the stadium to a company owned by the owner etc.) These are things that other clubs in the league are doing but nothing to the extent that Derby did.

Blimey. If this is true then it really is only a matter on time before the foundations (of the league) start crumbling... if it's not already started.

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Financial fair play seems to be a joke internationally. However , at club level in UK it seems non existent. Derby spending 143 percent of turnover on players wages is completely unsustainable ( as Romanov proved). I'm sure up here Dundee United were paying 133 per cent whilst in the Championship,  economic madness.

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I don't have much (any) sympathy for Derby.

 

But some clubs did gamble and won so the example isn't just the likes of Derby.

 

Maybe different financial backing. But both Wolves and Aston Villa massively overspent to get to EPL.

 

If Derby had beaten Aston Villa in that play off final....

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John Findlay
17 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

I don't have much (any) sympathy for Derby.

 

But some clubs did gamble and won so the example isn't just the likes of Derby.

 

Maybe different financial backing. But both Wolves and Aston Villa massively overspent to get to EPL.

 

If Derby had beaten Aston Villa in that play off final....

No different to buying a lottery ticket.

Only Derby's wasn't the winning ticket.

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jamboinglasgow
30 minutes ago, Rogue Daddy said:

Blimey. If this is true then it really is only a matter on time before the foundations (of the league) start crumbling... if it's not already started.

 

Yup, the clubs are doing this to hide losses from the EFL as they face punishment for have losses over 3 seasons totaling over (I think) £35m. It appears clubs are risking everything and trying to avoid punishment in the hope they get promoted and the money in the EPL can fix those debts. Its reckless and dangerous.

21 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

I don't have much (any) sympathy for Derby.

 

But some clubs did gamble and won so the example isn't just the likes of Derby.

 

Maybe different financial backing. But both Wolves and Aston Villa massively overspent to get to EPL.

 

If Derby had beaten Aston Villa in that play off final....

 

The article quotes a source from another EFL club who makes that point, people are going on about how they feel awful for the fans of Derby, but they never talk about the fans of other clubs who followed the rules and got screwed over by the likes of Derby trying to cheat by overspending and brazenly conceal losses that would have docked them points. So clubs like Wycombe.

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This shite is happening again. They all went bust when the ITV deal went tits up, and now they are about to go again. The government needs to act here and put wage caps on footballers , etc ... It needs to stop.

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33 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

This shite is happening again. They all went bust when the ITV deal went tits up, and now they are about to go again. The government needs to act here and put wage caps on footballers , etc ... It needs to stop.

Problem with Championship clubs is a good few pay Premiership wages to gamble and win promotion while other clubs pay Premiership wages out of relegation parachute payments. As clubs still rely on match day income COVID will have pricked their financial bubble to some extent.  Crazy and unsustainable doubt if the current regime in Westminster will care much though.

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Smith's right boot
On 19/09/2021 at 11:09, Nookie Bear said:


20k there with away allocation sold out. 
 

This the EFL problem: similar size clubs to us but paying their manager £46k/week and some players upwards of £20k/week. 
It’s all built on tv and a promise of EPL…and the standard is pretty poor as well. 

 

 

Nail on head. 

 

Souttar will Likley **** off to a club in a similar position to Derby as well. 

 

It's beyond a joke 

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Smith's right boot
8 hours ago, jamboinglasgow said:

 

Yup, the clubs are doing this to hide losses from the EFL as they face punishment for have losses over 3 seasons totaling over (I think) £35m. It appears clubs are risking everything and trying to avoid punishment in the hope they get promoted and the money in the EPL can fix those debts. Its reckless and dangerous.

 

The article quotes a source from another EFL club who makes that point, people are going on about how they feel awful for the fans of Derby, but they never talk about the fans of other clubs who followed the rules and got screwed over by the likes of Derby trying to cheat by overspending and brazenly conceal losses that would have docked them points. So clubs like Wycombe.

 

 

However, with the parachute payments in effect for 3 clubs the only way for a club to compete is to over spend. 

Parachute payments are meant to help the club financially stabilise, but the money is used to push for promotion again, so this forces competing clubs to over spend to try and compete. 

 

English football is just pure greed, it's a financial house of cards. 

 

If that Chelsea owner were to get bored or seriously ill, the club could be left with a debt of over a £billion. 

 

The money is stupid, e ery club is pushed. 

 

The players and agents are laughing and fair doos, but English football due to sky imo has contributed to lots of leagues and team ****ing themselves as they try to compete. 

 

Edited by Smith's right boot
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Neverforgetfiveone
11 hours ago, jamboinglasgow said:

https://theathletic.com/2837909/2021/09/21/derbys-admin-bomb-what-now-for-players-rooney-and-the-club-can-it-survive/?source=twitteruk

 

looks even worse for Derby then it first appeared.

 

They have £50m of debts that cant be wiped out through admin, (£10m football debts, secured debt of £20m to an American equity firm and £30m to HMRC which under new laws passed recently means that two thirds has to be paid unlike before when HMRC become other creditors who get paid the final admin rate.)

 

In the article, one person close to the finances said its a 50/50 chance that the club is liquidated. Also says there was an expectation among football finance experts that the club would have been bought up before admin as it had enough going for it in terms of size and number of fans but now they think thats slim.

 

Also talks about Derby using every possible loophole to hide the debt and overspending (create subsidiary companies to move the debt into, selling the stadium to a company owned by the owner etc.) These are things that other clubs in the league are doing but nothing to the extent that Derby did.

Here’s an idea, why don’t 3 or 4 of their supporters get together and start a movement… maybe a foundation? Get a few wealthy business people involved, galvanise the supporters… start up a pledge account… you never know, one day the supporters might own the club…. 😎

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1 hour ago, EIEIO said:

Problem with Championship clubs is a good few pay Premiership wages to gamble and win promotion while other clubs pay Premiership wages out of relegation parachute payments. As clubs still rely on match day income COVID will have pricked their financial bubble to some extent.  Crazy and unsustainable doubt if the current regime in Westminster will care much though.

Time the people took the game back. Millionaire footballers is crazy.

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There's something seriously wrong, if it can cost you your club to reach the top league in your country. Liverpool, Chelsea, The Manchester clubs and Arsenal have a lot to answer for.

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1 minute ago, ri Alban said:

There's something seriously wrong, if it can cost you your club to reach the top league in your country. Liverpool, Chelsea, The Manchester clubs and Arsenal have a lot to answer for.

 

There are some fairly simple financial controls that could be put in.

 

60% maximum of turnover on wages for example.

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Just now, Mikey1874 said:

 

There are some fairly simple financial controls that could be put in.

 

60% maximum of turnover on wages for example.

Something needs to happen.

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jamboinglasgow
5 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

There's something seriously wrong, if it can cost you your club to reach the top league in your country. Liverpool, Chelsea, The Manchester clubs and Arsenal have a lot to answer for.

 

The thing is there are plenty examples of clubs who did push themselves into huge debts just to get up. But a lot them was about being patient in building things up, being a bit clever on how you recruit and not go all out spending each season to get it.

 

Sadly the greed for owners to get in the Premier then make a good sell on their investment or too easily cave into pressure from fans and go all out with spending.

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On 19/09/2021 at 00:46, JamboAl said:

I think the FoH idea is just an option supporters are exploring rather than there being a widespread desire for it.  I think they would be happy just to get rid of Ashley as he is not putting in the money they would like him to do for better players.  Two or three consecutive wins to ease relegation fears and the natives will pipe down, at least for a little while.

I think our FoH mission was a last ditch effort backed by us fans who feared losing our club. Derby aren't at that point yet. The fact that we've sustained our financial support and obligation to buy the club back from Budge is the most impressive part for me. Long may it continue....

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Nookie Bear
1 hour ago, Mr Benn said:

Average salary in that League is 15k a week. Some fairly average players being very nicely rewarded. 


Problem is that the EFL are always prowling for decent Scottish players and are tempting them south with salaries that they cannot really afford. 

We are operating in an unfair marketplace. 

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Reading who are facing sanctions from EFL have had spent an average of just over 200 percent of turnover on players wages in the past 3 accounting years. Source @PriceOfFootball.

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The Frenchman Returns

Spent a bit of time surfing their version of kickback

 

https://dcfcfans.uk/forum/4-derby-county-forum/

 

They really need to wake up and smell the coffee, the levels of blame everyone else and naivety as to what is about to happen when they go into administration is breathtaking. Reminds me very much of Sevco and their self entitlement. If it represents a true reflection of Derby supporters then my sympathy vote has just been withdrawn.

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PortyBeach
On 17/09/2021 at 23:29, luckydug said:

Last night sticking up for the obnoxious Rangers. 

Tonight relishing a perfectly innocent fanbase and City possibly losing their club. 

Horrible behaviour imo. 

👍

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Auldbenches

I wonder if second tier clubs in the other big leagues have clubs suffering the same chasing the big tv money.  

Is this happening in Spain, Germany and Italy?  

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Footballfirst

That's what a 12 point deduction can do to you.

 

  Team P GD Pts
1   Bournemouth 8 8 18
2   Fulham 8 11 16
 
3   West Brom 8 7 16
4   Coventry 8 3 16
5   Stoke 8 1 14
6   Blackburn 8 3 13
 
7   Huddersfield 8 2 13
8   QPR 8 4 12
9   Bristol City 8 1 12
10   Cardiff 8 2 11
11   Birmingham 8 0 11
12   Luton 8 -2 10
13   Reading 8 -3 10
14   Sheff Utd 8 0 9
15   Middlesbrough 8 -1 9
16   Preston 8 -2 9
17   Millwall 8 -2 8
18   Barnsley 8 -3 8
19   Blackpool 8 -5 8
20   Swansea 8 -4 7
21   Peterborough 8 -7 7
 
22   Hull 8 -7 5
23   Nottm Forest 8 -5 4
24   Derby 8 -1 -2
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On 21/09/2021 at 19:51, Neverforgetfiveone said:

Here’s an idea, why don’t 3 or 4 of their supporters get together and start a movement… maybe a foundation? Get a few wealthy business people involved, galvanise the supporters… start up a pledge account… you never know, one day the supporters might own the club…. 😎

Yeah as if that would ever work🇱🇻🥰

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Hagar the Horrible
13 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

That's what a 12 point deduction can do to you.

 

  Team P GD Pts
1   Bournemouth 8 8 18
2   Fulham 8 11 16
 
3   West Brom 8 7 16
4   Coventry 8 3 16
5   Stoke 8 1 14
6   Blackburn 8 3 13
 
7   Huddersfield 8 2 13
8   QPR 8 4 12
9   Bristol City 8 1 12
10   Cardiff 8 2 11
11   Birmingham 8 0 11
12   Luton 8 -2 10
13   Reading 8 -3 10
14   Sheff Utd 8 0 9
15   Middlesbrough 8 -1 9
16   Preston 8 -2 9
17   Millwall 8 -2 8
18   Barnsley 8 -3 8
19   Blackpool 8 -5 8
20   Swansea 8 -4 7
21   Peterborough 8 -7 7
 
22   Hull 8 -7 5
23   Nottm Forest 8 -5 4
24   Derby 8 -1 -2

It is a lot worse than that, Derby sold Pride park for £80m  any new owners will be laden with rent or a massive buy back.  They are in debt somewhere between £50 - £70m in which the administrators will confirm.  All football debt must be paid in full, and 25% on non football credit must be paid or another 15 points (next season?), Those rules would have killed off Sevco and even gave us a scare.  Rooney wont quit and his wages have been described as competative, another Ally McCoist job.  they are losing £1.5m per month on wages, OK selling players and allowing others to go will help that, as well as renegotiate contracts.

 

By the time this gets sorted they will be a league 2 club with massive debt that admin wont resolve.  They could try the liquidation route and come back as the The Derby County that worked for some other club I cant recall who?

 

What I will also say is how were Wycome relegated and surely they gave assurances to the league they can finish it.

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18 minutes ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

It is a lot worse than that, Derby sold Pride park for £80m  any new owners will be laden with rent or a massive buy back.  They are in debt somewhere between £50 - £70m in which the administrators will confirm.  All football debt must be paid in full, and 25% on non football credit must be paid or another 15 points (next season?), Those rules would have killed off Sevco and even gave us a scare.  Rooney wont quit and his wages have been described as competative, another Ally McCoist job.  they are losing £1.5m per month on wages, OK selling players and allowing others to go will help that, as well as renegotiate contracts.

 

By the time this gets sorted they will be a league 2 club with massive debt that admin wont resolve.  They could try the liquidation route and come back as the The Derby County that worked for some other club I cant recall who?

 

What I will also say is how were Wycome relegated and surely they gave assurances to the league they can finish it.

not only that but dont they owe something like £20M to hmrc which will also need paid back

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Hagar the Horrible
On 22/09/2021 at 10:37, The Frenchman Returns said:

Spent a bit of time surfing their version of kickback

 

https://dcfcfans.uk/forum/4-derby-county-forum/

 

They really need to wake up and smell the coffee, the levels of blame everyone else and naivety as to what is about to happen when they go into administration is breathtaking. Reminds me very much of Sevco and their self entitlement. If it represents a true reflection of Derby supporters then my sympathy vote has just been withdrawn.

I sped read that forum then jumped to the end.  OMG the level of dilusion is Sevco on steroids and even make the zoomers on here sane.  Anybody reporting bad news back in May was shot down, then clearly the ITK guys.

 

Some think the debt is Mels debt so no problem!  sorry I could buy Man City for £2000m if I was able to get a loan, dump that debt onto Man City and I dont owe a penny.

 

They think Mel will gift back the stadium, and most of the debt will be written off?

 

2 things from that is 100% of football debt must be paid, and HMRC will not do a deal, how long did Sevco take to alloow that to sink in?

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Hagar the Horrible
3 minutes ago, milky_26 said:

not only that but dont they owe something like £20M to hmrc which will also need paid back

Their fans seriously think HMRC will do a deal. 

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Nookie Bear
24 minutes ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

It is a lot worse than that, Derby sold Pride park for £80m  any new owners will be laden with rent or a massive buy back.  They are in debt somewhere between £50 - £70m in which the administrators will confirm.  All football debt must be paid in full, and 25% on non football credit must be paid or another 15 points (next season?), Those rules would have killed off Sevco and even gave us a scare.  Rooney wont quit and his wages have been described as competative, another Ally McCoist job.  they are losing £1.5m per month on wages, OK selling players and allowing others to go will help that, as well as renegotiate contracts.

 

By the time this gets sorted they will be a league 2 club with massive debt that admin wont resolve.  They could try the liquidation route and come back as the The Derby County that worked for some other club I cant recall who?

 

What I will also say is how were Wycome relegated and surely they gave assurances to the league they can finish it.

 

I read he is on £46k/week however i also hear he is paying for a lot of things out of his own pocket. But he needs to stand down and let a cheaper alternative step in, or work for peanuts.

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Nookie Bear

Had a quick look at their forum and they seem to be relieved that the inevitable administration has happened and it represents a possible way out.

 

A lot of optimism but does not look like they fully grasp just how much trouble they are still in. Talk of new owners etc is very optimistic.

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While you can blame owners it's the fans that demand success and are happy to see great players signed on massive wages. They loved Frank Lampard being manager on £millions a year. The loan fees for Harry Wilson and Mason Mount would have been £6-12 million. The season they lost the play off final. 

 

The good thing is they have a chance to start again. I see a lot of fans are confident they can stay up even with another points deduction expected to follow. 

Edited by Mikey1874
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jamboinglasgow
17 minutes ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

Their fans seriously think HMRC will do a deal. 

 

Yup, they obviously dont know HMRC like we learnt up here about them. The article I posted earlier does talk about HMRC doing deals, but that was payment plans for EFL clubs who simply withheld the VAT and NI money to HMRC during Covid. HMRC was happy to do a payment agreement with those clubs to get the money back, funnily enough Derby was the only club that refused even to do that (so hardly in HMRC's good books.) 

 

HMRC forced change to the law to ensure they get their money from admin, and even then its 2/3s of the figure, so doubt HMRC would be interested cutting a further deal.

 

The problem for Derby fans if they want to do what we did is the cost of resolving admin is huge so not easy to get someone to buy it then they pay back (it would take a long time.) Alternatively they have a club racked with huge debts and most likely far down the leagues. 

 

The reality is not hitting them and they need to wake up and face facts, otherwise their club could go under.

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The fans have no say now.

 

It's really down to the creditors, the administrators and prospective new owners. 

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