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Prison v Rehabilitation


JamesM48

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Jamstomorrow

I agree.   However, if using the opinion that their brains not being fully developed until they are 25 is the criteria, surely marriage, driving, drinking, voting, firearm ownership, joining the armed forces, emergency services and anything else that needs the maturity of an adult, developed brain, should also be taken into consideration and the age limit advanced?

 

Alternatively, if you are old enough to do the crime, you are old enough to do the time.  The murder of Jamie Bulger springs to mind.  I am sure their will be other examples.

 

 

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24 minutes ago, Jamstomorrow said:

I agree.   However, if using the opinion that their brains not being fully developed until they are 25 is the criteria, surely marriage, driving, drinking, voting, firearm ownership, joining the armed forces, emergency services and anything else that needs the maturity of an adult, developed brain, should also be taken into consideration and the age limit advanced?

 

Alternatively, if you are old enough to do the crime, you are old enough to do the time.  The murder of Jamie Bulger springs to mind.  I am sure their will be other examples.

 

 

Very good points . I have read  a lot about the brain development concepts and it’s relation to trauma in adolescents and adults so I find it very interesting . However I do wonder about how the victims of those crimes may feel if custodial sentences aren’t considered ? That should be taken into account . Prison is first and foremost a punishment . 

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If that's the way to go, then any re-offending from someone should be dealt with by use of a harsh prison sentence. 

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Byyy The Light

A topic I find very interesting.  Plenty forces at play. Biggest one for me is that sometimes people are just born bad motherfunksters, others don’t stand a chance due to the circumstances they are born in to.  Rehabilitation is all well and good if there is adequate support and opportunity for as long as someone needs it. Otherwise it’s too easy to fall back in with people and habits that got people there in the first place. 

 

25 does seem old though.  

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11 minutes ago, Byyy The Light said:

A topic I find very interesting.  Plenty forces at play. Biggest one for me is that sometimes people are just born bad motherfunksters, others don’t stand a chance due to the circumstances they are born in to.  Rehabilitation is all well and good if there is adequate support and opportunity for as long as someone needs it. Otherwise it’s too easy to fall back in with people and habits that got people there in the first place. 

 

25 does seem old though.  

Yes that’s the problem . When they leave jail they get back in tow with the same crowd of offenders usually 

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Auldbenches
8 minutes ago, gjcc said:

Fine. As long as long as the avoided prison time is added to any punishment for subsequent offending. 

That's a great suggestion.  Would give the incentive to keep out of trouble and help with their rehabilitation program.

 

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Section N Rules

Anyone re offends they get shot in the head in front of their family. Seriously though, it depends in the crime committed. Some 100% deserve jail regardless of age.

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No easy answer to this, I guess.

 

Theoretically, prison should involve rehabilitation, but you can only be rehabilitated if you really want to be, IMO.

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Rehabilitation is cheaper and if it prevents reoffending then it pays off bigtime, both financially and for the health of society as a whole.

 

Re-offending after having gone through a rehabilitation course should carry an extra penalty tariff. 

Get longer in the pokey if you've been given a good 2nd chance and fecked it.

 

Of course, certain crimes should not qualify for rehab. Straight to the clink for serious offences.

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AlimOzturk

Got into a lot of bother between the age of 16-21. Petty things mostly involving drink. Tallied up though and got told by a judge that if I was back up In court with my previous I was likely spending time in the pokey. 
 

Got my shit together pretty quick (kind of 😂)  was young and stupid and can’t believe some of the daft shit I did. Can attest to not fully developing and maturing until later on. 
 

Think if I got the jail it could have actually made me worse than just thought of it tbh. Might have met the wrong people fell into The wrong crowd. Who knows. 
 

 

Edited by AlimOzturk
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AlimOzturk
2 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

Just a training centre for crime at that age


Agreed

 

Useless sending a daft young laddie into jail just to come out a more hardened criminal. Obviously depending on the severity of the crime but if someone can’t redeem themselves then what’s the point. 

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AlimOzturk
29 minutes ago, Cade said:

Rehabilitation is cheaper and if it prevents reoffending then it pays off bigtime, both financially and for the health of society as a whole.

 

Re-offending after having gone through a rehabilitation course should carry an extra penalty tariff. 

Get longer in the pokey if you've been given a good 2nd chance and fecked it.

 

Of course, certain crimes should not qualify for rehab. Straight to the clink for serious offences.


Most crimes, even murder and rape will see someone eventually rejoin society. Would be completely neglectful of the system to just leave these ones behind without attempting to stop these people

from further harm when they eventually get out. 

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The whole process and system would need looked at. I’ve spent a bit of time in prisons over the years doing work with prisoners. The young offenders places and half way house open prisons were totally macho atmospheres and had a feeling of aggression and the feeling it could kick off. Oddly I spent a week in the special unit in Saughton with some seriously bad men and it felt safer. It’s a strange feeling being in a room with a dozen other people and realising you’re the only person that hasn’t killed someone. It felt like a lot of them had come to terms personally with what they had done and what they were. Also a bit sobering when you’ve got murderers and proper hard men telling you that “the bloke outside doing the sculptures” is a scary ******* and don’t talk to him. 

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1 hour ago, Tazio said:

The whole process and system would need looked at. I’ve spent a bit of time in prisons over the years doing work with prisoners. The young offenders places and half way house open prisons were totally macho atmospheres and had a feeling of aggression and the feeling it could kick off. Oddly I spent a week in the special unit in Saughton with some seriously bad men and it felt safer. It’s a strange feeling being in a room with a dozen other people and realising you’re the only person that hasn’t killed someone. It felt like a lot of them had come to terms personally with what they had done and what they were. Also a bit sobering when you’ve got murderers and proper hard men telling you that “the bloke outside doing the sculptures” is a scary ******* and don’t talk to him. 

👍

 

Edited by JamesM48
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Treating drug addicts as a medical issue instead of a criminal, would be a start.

 

As for crooks, they're usually over 25 and running the country .

Edited by ri Alban
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I read somewhere that once a prisoner is over 24 and they are repeat offenders their future is pretty bleak as they just tend to stay on that path. Therefore I assume this new thinking  is trying to stop this pattern ? But I still believe that the punishment element is vital too as part of the whole sentencing of prisoners . Victims need their voices heard too but it’s too all out benefit To successfully rehabilitate offenders . 

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Auldbenches
27 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said:

Spice mines of Kessel for the ****ing lot of them.

There's a fair amount of these guys have came through things like the care system and dropped at 17 to just get on with it.  Theres more support than their used to be but still not enough. 

Ask anyone trying to get help through community things like CPNs and theyll tell you they wait ages for it if they get it at all.  

We have to look at the support services to prevent it in the first place. 

Also people in prison for drugs offences when every sensible person knows that the drug laws are draconian. 

Demonising everyone in prison is just ignorance and gets us know where.

A lot come out resentful at how life and the system had treated them and end up angry and trusting know one.

The system needs changed and not just the prison service.

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Governor Tarkin
8 minutes ago, Auldbenches said:

There's a fair amount of these guys have came through things like the care system and dropped at 17 to just get on with it.  Theres more support than their used to be but still not enough. 

Ask anyone trying to get help through community things like CPNs and theyll tell you they wait ages for it if they get it at all.  

We have to look at the support services to prevent it in the first place. 

Also people in prison for drugs offences when every sensible person knows that the drug laws are draconian. 

Demonising everyone in prison is just ignorance and gets us know where.

A lot come out resentful at how life and the system had treated them and end up angry and trusting know one.

The system needs changed and not just the prison service.

 

The entire system is disjointed and underfunded from top to bottom. Social services are ill-equipped to deal with the dislocation and ennui that modern society inflicts upon its citizens, especially the young and vulnerable. The same could be said for any point in history, though.

The majority of folk I know that did a spot of lag at a young age for petty youthful stuff came out at the other side worse, if anything. 

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Auldbenches
Just now, Governor Tarkin said:

 

The entire system is disjointed and underfunded from top to bottom. Social services are ill-equipped to deal with the dislocation and ennui that modern society inflicts upon its citizens, especially the young and vulnerable. The same could be said for any point in history, though.

The majority of folk I know that did a spot of lag at a young age for petty youthful stuff came out at the other side worse, if anything. 

Nail on the head with the lack of funding and being disjointed.

The mental health side of things just now is struggling to deliver basic services due to the increase in demand through this period. 

It would be a lot worse if it wasn't for local peer support groups.   

That's what they should be looking at putting money towards.   A lot cheaper and they as helpful as anything else in offer.  

From just getting together and offering instant support to constantly campaigning to try and improve the services on offer. 

Put money into these things and you'll get lot less hospital admissions. 

All these things could be emulated by the criminal justice system to help ex offenders or those just trapped in reoffending. 

There are lot if people who trust their peers more than those in the system.

Try and get anywhere if you have an issue with both of those systems and it's nothing but frustration for those trying to get answers.

Mondy is the answer but we won't need as much if we look at the other options available. 

There are lots that are just criminal minded but the majority need a break.

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2 hours ago, Auldbenches said:

Nail on the head with the lack of funding and being disjointed.

The mental health side of things just now is struggling to deliver basic services due to the increase in demand through this period. 

It would be a lot worse if it wasn't for local peer support groups.   

That's what they should be looking at putting money towards.   A lot cheaper and they as helpful as anything else in offer.  

From just getting together and offering instant support to constantly campaigning to try and improve the services on offer. 

Put money into these things and you'll get lot less hospital admissions. 

All these things could be emulated by the criminal justice system to help ex offenders or those just trapped in reoffending. 

There are lot if people who trust their peers more than those in the system.

Try and get anywhere if you have an issue with both of those systems and it's nothing but frustration for those trying to get answers.

Mondy is the answer but we won't need as much if we look at the other options available. 

There are lots that are just criminal minded but the majority need a break.

Whilst I see the value in peer support groups there can be issues with them . The lack of impartiality and the abilty to remain neutral can be issues in these groups. its a skilled bit of work to facilitate groups so having unskilled workers attempting to facilitate groups without the knowledge or understanding of group theory may be a hindrance . However peer support can be of great value of managed appropriately 

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Auldbenches
39 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

Whilst I see the value in peer support groups there can be issues with them . The lack of impartiality and the abilty to remain neutral can be issues in these groups. its a skilled bit of work to facilitate groups so having unskilled workers attempting to facilitate groups without the knowledge or understanding of group theory may be a hindrance . However peer support can be of great value of managed appropriately 

Every peer support group is run by people who have the appropriate training.  There's always at least two at each session who not how to facilitate things 

You need to elaborate on the impartiality point. 

 

Edited by Auldbenches
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27 minutes ago, Auldbenches said:

Every peer support group is run by people who have the appropriate training.  There's always at least two at each session who not how to facilitate things 

You need to elaborate on the impartiality point. 

 

I mean them being objective about their experiences and Perhaps assuming the group member would have same experiences . No one has exactly the same experiences 

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Auldbenches
33 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

I mean them being objective about their experiences and Perhaps assuming the group member would have same experiences . No one has exactly the same experiences 

That's not the function of a peer support group.  You might have 5 in a meeting with different conditions. They would still have common ground through how it impacts their lives and sharing what support there is.  

No one assumes anything these meetings about what others are going through until they hear about it.

There is down side to these groups. 

There's nothing in your post that's right.

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19 hours ago, JamesM48 said:

Very good points . I have read  a lot about the brain development concepts and it’s relation to trauma in adolescents and adults so I find it very interesting . However I do wonder about how the victims of those crimes may feel if custodial sentences aren’t considered ? That should be taken into account . Prison is first and foremost a punishment

Loss of their liberty is the punishment. Prison is a consequence of their choices. Having worked in HMP Shotts, I can say that prison ISN'T a punishment. Some of them like it there. 

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4 minutes ago, EH11_2NL said:

Loss of their liberty is the punishment. Prison is a consequence of their choices. Having worked in HMP Shotts, I can say that prison ISN'T a punishment. Some of them like it there. 

Ok loss of liberty is their punishment . That’s fine with me . I’m not eating harsh cruel prison regimes ! 

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3 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

Ok loss of liberty is their punishment . That’s fine with me . I’m not eating harsh cruel prison regimes ! 

Apologies if that came across as knobbishness. That is the mantra that the SPS give out. 3 hots and a cot, drugs and mobile phones isn't a punishment.

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Jamstomorrow

I believe OCG's currently use juveniles (under 16) to commit unlawful acts. As juveniles, if they get caught they normally go in front of the Children's Reporter and dealt with more leniently unless the PF decides to take the case  to an adult Court.   How wonderful for these groups if the age is raised to 25.

 

 

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