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Young players going out on loan to lower leagues in Scotland - are there better alternatives?


Byyy The Light

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Byyy The Light

What are people's thoughts on this?  Personally I think they are a waste of time and very rarely do they help players kick on.  I know the players still train at Oriam through the week but going to train and play with these part time teams with dinosaur coaches and get booted up and down the park doesn't exactly fit in to the philosophy of the academy to play decent football.  Inevitably they end up sitting on the bench and the "couldn't get game for Airdrie" quotes get rolled out.  The club also clearly don't think they are very effective as they made a loans manager a thing to try and improve the results.

 

There is a lot of chat about players not making the step up from promising academy players to the first team, so what is the alternative?  Should we be looking at Colts team so we can guarantee game time and focus on development rather than results?  Should we look abroad to lower divisions where the football is more technical and the players get a taste of another culture to develop?  What about some sort of reciprocal loan with whoever we take a player from i.e. Brighton with Cochrane, and we send a player to their 19s, 23s or whatever?

 

It was the Jack Hendry transfer that got me thinking about all this and how bad we (Scottish football) seem to be at player development. We've clearly got the players with the ability to step up as they are littered through the EPL, we just can't nurture it properly. 

 

 

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Good points, like the idea of sending them abroad assuming anyone would want to take them? 

 

Your right very few (can't think of any) come back from loans to make it in the first team. 

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Think Callum Mcgregor of Celtic went on loan to an English league 2 side a few years back, Notts County at a guess.

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Problem is these English clubs have plenty of their own youngsters not sure many need ours on loan. What we need is a B team in the leagues, maybe someone could come up with an idea to let that happen… oh wait the old firm already did!

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The Treasurer

Proper reserve league. 

Allows youngsters and fringe players to get regular game time. 

 

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When people say, 'there's not many examples of players going out on loan and coming back to earn a first team place',  I wonder if it's mainly because not many youth players actually make the grade anyway.  It'll inevitably seem like many players go on loan and very few become successful first team players.

 

Off the top of my head, some academy/youth successes who went out on loan: Gordon (cowdenbeath), Jamie Macdonald (quots), Neilson (qots), Templeton (raith) Jamie Walker & Jason Holt (raith), Ryan McGowan (Ayr, Partick).

 

Also seems to have been good for superstars like Harry Kane, James Maddison, etc

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kingantti1874
27 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

Players need to play.

 

People want them not to play?


they need to play in the right environment to facilitate their development. A league of cloggers and shit pitches may be fine for a centre back but not for a technical player

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Jamie Walker (Raith)

Craig Gordon (cowdenbeath)

 

Probably the best examples. Because of relegation season we had a whole crop of youngsters promoted to first team so I think that attributes to the gap.

 

Callumn Morrison done well at Stirling and came back to play his part. Albeit overall probably not good enough. It certainly didn't hinder his development though.

 

Only time I find it odd is when they go way down the pyramid to East of Scotland etc, but that is usually when they are not going to make the grade and are seeing out a contract.

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johnnythejambo

Either a reserve league or a colts team. This allows us to play the players we want. The problem with them going out on loan is if they fall out of favour they don't get any game time at all. Although a colts team may not allow us to play our fringe players who need game time

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Yes, loan them to our rivals and tell the guys to sabotage every game.

 

Horrific,two-footed challenges in training are great as well.

 

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I think the principle is fine,getting them game time at a reasonable standard when they're not ready for us.

 

What I'd actually like to see more of is us 'selling' developing players to lower league teams with a pre-agreed buy back option.  That way the team they're going to is more invested in their development and we don't keep players only to repeatedly loan them out haphazardly.  The ones we're not interested in go on to the rest of their career and we don't lose out if someone is a late developer

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1 hour ago, Byyy The Light said:

What are people's thoughts on this?  Personally I think they are a waste of time and very rarely do they help players kick on.  I know the players still train at Oriam through the week but going to train and play with these part time teams with dinosaur coaches and get booted up and down the park doesn't exactly fit in to the philosophy of the academy to play decent football.  Inevitably they end up sitting on the bench and the "couldn't get game for Airdrie" quotes get rolled out.  The club also clearly don't think they are very effective as they made a loans manager a thing to try and improve the results.

 

There is a lot of chat about players not making the step up from promising academy players to the first team, so what is the alternative?  Should we be looking at Colts team so we can guarantee game time and focus on development rather than results?  Should we look abroad to lower divisions where the football is more technical and the players get a taste of another culture to develop?  What about some sort of reciprocal loan with whoever we take a player from i.e. Brighton with Cochrane, and we send a player to their 19s, 23s or whatever?

 

It was the Jack Hendry transfer that got me thinking about all this and how bad we (Scottish football) seem to be at player development. We've clearly got the players with the ability to step up as they are littered through the EPL, we just can't nurture it properly. 

 

 

 

A very poor comment on dinosaur coaches, like any job some are better than others and perhaps experience of getting 'booted up and down the park' isn't so bad.

 

Teams should have a member of staff responsible for loans, I think its silly not to, they shouldn't be sending players to teams where they won't be used. It's not unreasonable to expect a player to bench initially until they settle in but if they aren't getting used they should be brought back. Particularly for keepers very few 17-23 are going to play in a premiership club s first team, just look at the list of Clubs Kasper Schmeicel's been at. 

 

Interested in your comment about the academy looking to play decent football, the last 18s game I saw was on one of dual Rugby/foot pitches at orium, not conducive to that.

 

A colts/reserve team isn't unreasonable but would need but in from a number of clubs to work and as with anything like this comes with a cost. 

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Young players need to play against adults to learn how they can deal with being kicked or their play anticipated etc. They learn a lot more on loan than with any age group football.

 

It toughens them up too - a la Dave Mackay and Kenny Dalglish being played in the Juniors. Of course, maybe some people have never heard of them 😃.  Goalkeepers need to make their mistakes away from the "headlights" - Craig with Cowden and Harry Stone with Partick for example. They learn from these (hopefully).

 

If they struggle out on loan then they will probbably not be good enough for our first team. Leeroy Makarova was excellent in that end of season game at Rugby Park but has never kicked on when on loan - hence he has been released.

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Tasavallan

The Arsecheeks have taken the "B" teams into lower leagues route but this does not necessarily give sufficient experience to their reserve players.  The bench-warmers need game time which means senior bounce games midweek.  Due to cost cuts loans is the only option.  We have 9 players currently out on loan with a remaining senior squad of 24 players, which includes 5 players under 20 yrs.  My only question is the quality of the teams the players are loaned to.

 

I like the age of those players brought in:

23 Beni

21 Woodburn

23 Gino

24 Moore

21 Cochrane

23 Devlin

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Byyy The Light
1 hour ago, kingantti1874 said:


they need to play in the right environment to facilitate their development. A league of cloggers and shit pitches may be fine for a centre back but not for a technical player

 

This is exactly what I'm getting at.  How can we make sure they are in the right or best environment.  Just seems they get sent out and it's sink or swim time.  Like chucking a young technical boxer in with a seasoned street fighter and seeing how they get on.

 

 

1 hour ago, Hesh said:

 

A very poor comment on dinosaur coaches, like any job some are better than others and perhaps experience of getting 'booted up and down the park' isn't so bad.

 

Teams should have a member of staff responsible for loans, I think its silly not to, they shouldn't be sending players to teams where they won't be used. It's not unreasonable to expect a player to bench initially until they settle in but if they aren't getting used they should be brought back. Particularly for keepers very few 17-23 are going to play in a premiership club s first team, just look at the list of Clubs Kasper Schmeicel's been at. 

 

Interested in your comment about the academy looking to play decent football, the last 18s game I saw was on one of dual Rugby/foot pitches at orium, not conducive to that.

 

A colts/reserve team isn't unreasonable but would need but in from a number of clubs to work and as with anything like this comes with a cost. 

 

Stand by the comments I made. I know they are not all like that but where's the value in sending a kid out to somewhere where the tactics are get it up the park and play from there when you've invested years in their technical skills. I'm just asking if there is a better way.  Add in the pressure on managers to get results, they'll not want to carry passengers and allow a young guy to get up to speed if it means it could put their job on the line.

 

 

1 hour ago, Diego10 said:

I think the principle is fine,getting them game time at a reasonable standard when they're not ready for us.

 

What I'd actually like to see more of is us 'selling' developing players to lower league teams with a pre-agreed buy back option.  That way the team they're going to is more invested in their development and we don't keep players only to repeatedly loan them out haphazardly.  The ones we're not interested in go on to the rest of their career and we don't lose out if someone is a late developer

 

Like this idea.

Edited by Byyy The Light
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Hearts1975
3 hours ago, Byyy The Light said:

What are people's thoughts on this?  Personally I think they are a waste of time and very rarely do they help players kick on.  I know the players still train at Oriam through the week but going to train and play with these part time teams with dinosaur coaches and get booted up and down the park doesn't exactly fit in to the philosophy of the academy to play decent football.  Inevitably they end up sitting on the bench and the "couldn't get game for Airdrie" quotes get rolled out.  The club also clearly don't think they are very effective as they made a loans manager a thing to try and improve the results.

 

There is a lot of chat about players not making the step up from promising academy players to the first team, so what is the alternative?  Should we be looking at Colts team so we can guarantee game time and focus on development rather than results?  Should we look abroad to lower divisions where the football is more technical and the players get a taste of another culture to develop?  What about some sort of reciprocal loan with whoever we take a player from i.e. Brighton with Cochrane, and we send a player to their 19s, 23s or whatever?

 

It was the Jack Hendry transfer that got me thinking about all this and how bad we (Scottish football) seem to be at player development. We've clearly got the players with the ability to step up as they are littered through the EPL, we just can't nurture it properly. 

 

 

Cracking post 

 

I always had it in my head that if u were good enough as a young player you would shine being out on loan if at a lesser team or down a few leagues 

 

Your points about how they end up being benched and at times out the team make a lot of sense 

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2 hours ago, The Treasurer said:

Proper reserve league. 

Allows youngsters and fringe players to get regular game time. 

 

Only 5 clubs wanted a reserve league. Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen, Morton and ???.

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Lone Striker

I think the recent rule changes to have a hundred substitutes on the bench has caused an issue for all clubs.    It seems that the likes of us, Hibs & Aberdeen want to keep  at least half of these bench places for experienced players - who in turn tend to be the ones who get more game time from the bench than any of the young inexperienced guys.  

 

 A "first team squad" now seems to have  3 distinct groups - recognised first-pick players, some 2nd-pick backups, and some youngsters who might be your best prospects but who'll get less game time than the other youngsters you loaned out.

 

Its a catch 22 in a way, imo.   

 

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19 minutes ago, Byyy The Light said:

 

Stand by the comments I made. I know they are not all like that but where's the value in sending a kid out to somewhere where the tactics are get it up the park and play from there when you've invested years in their technical skills. I'm just asking if there is a better way.  Add in the pressure on managers to get results, they'll not want to carry passengers and allow a young guy to get up to speed if it means it could put their job on the line.

 

 

 

Fair enough, its up to whomever coordinates the loans at a club to make sure the player goes to a somewhere with the relevant style of play. If a club isn't wanting to (risk) carry a player then they shouldn't be taking a loan player on .

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2 hours ago, kingantti1874 said:


they need to play in the right environment to facilitate their development. A league of cloggers and shit pitches may be fine for a centre back but not for a technical player

Why not?  That's what they are stepping up to 😀

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Saint Jambo

Pretty much every club loans players out to lower levels so presumably coaches think it advances player development. In almost all cases they will be going to a level that is less technical than the level of their parent club. Different development opportunities will lead to players developing in different ways. Training with the academy will help players improve technically. Playing in the lower leagues will get youngsters ready for playing experienced pros that will use their physicality and all the tricks of the trade to get an advantage. Anyone that saw Cochrane ragdolled repeatedly by Ja Emmanuel-Thomas against Aberdeen will have seen why being able to deal with physical players is important in the Premiership. Equally, Ginnelly is great at combining his skill and strength to get away from more physical opponents.

 

I think part of the issue is the expectation of fans from our fans that those players must stand out in the lower leagues if they are going to make it at Hearts. Bizarrely no one seemed to worry that our under 20s were beaten by Hamilton, but if those players went out on loan to the championship many posters would expect them to stand out.

 

The colts team is an interesting idea, although Rangers and Celtic are in the lowland league. When we've loaned players out to that level in the past the consensus has been that those players must be finished at Hearts because they can't possibly develop playing against that level of opposition. The idea of having partnerships that allow us to lend multiple youngsters to a single lower league team would probably suit us, but unlikely to be attractive to fans of those teams.

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jamboinglasgow

Just saw a stat in regardless to Motherwell. They over the last number of seasons have been praised for bringing through young players, however in their first 4 league games this season they have not played a single player under the age of 21. They currently have a squad with 26 players over the age of 21. So loans can be fine but without a desire to give them the chances when they come back then it can be pointless.

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Tasavallan
1 hour ago, jamboinglasgow said:

Just saw a stat in regardless to Motherwell. They over the last number of seasons have been praised for bringing through young players, however in their first 4 league games this season they have not played a single player under the age of 21. They currently have a squad with 26 players over the age of 21. So loans can be fine but without a desire to give them the chances when they come back then it can be pointless.

It depends on the Manager.  If he feels his position is threatened by a low league position or relegation he may not play young players.    

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The Treasurer
27 minutes ago, Tasavallan said:

It depends on the Manager.  If he feels his position is threatened by a low league position or relegation he may not play young players.    

Which brings us back to the subject of expanding the league. 

More teams means less of a threat of relegation, meaning managers might take more of a risk by playing more youngsters. 

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Bongo 1874
14 hours ago, Byyy The Light said:

What are people's thoughts on this?  Personally I think they are a waste of time and very rarely do they help players kick on.  I know the players still train at Oriam through the week but going to train and play with these part time teams with dinosaur coaches and get booted up and down the park doesn't exactly fit in to the philosophy of the academy to play decent football.  Inevitably they end up sitting on the bench and the "couldn't get game for Airdrie" quotes get rolled out.  The club also clearly don't think they are very effective as they made a loans manager a thing to try and improve the results.

 

There is a lot of chat about players not making the step up from promising academy players to the first team, so what is the alternative?  Should we be looking at Colts team so we can guarantee game time and focus on development rather than results?  Should we look abroad to lower divisions where the football is more technical and the players get a taste of another culture to develop?  What about some sort of reciprocal loan with whoever we take a player from i.e. Brighton with Cochrane, and we send a player to their 19s, 23s or whatever?

 

It was the Jack Hendry transfer that got me thinking about all this and how bad we (Scottish football) seem to be at player development. We've clearly got the players with the ability to step up as they are littered through the EPL, we just can't nurture it properly. 

 

 

👍

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Smith's right boot

Players need to play, if they can't play here then playing at a lower level is best. 

 

In regards to going abroad, assuming teams want them it comes with the issue of a young lad all by himself in a country for a time - no friends or family. Many might not want that. 

 

A colts team would have benefits but right now I want a good team in the top flight so maybe it's a consideration for the medium term future. 

 

My opinion is that we strip back the youth set up, tie in with a boys club or even maybe Spartans / Edinburgh City and concentrate on the 18-22 ish  market in England. 

If we were at Aberdeens consistency, then a tie on with a big  English club might be an option as well as they'd be willing to loan us better players especially if we were in Europe every season. 

 

Very few of our young players will make it at Hearts and even fewer will make it at a higher level than Hearts, most will end up boosting our squad numbers then moving to a lower league team. Always been that way. 

 

Also, if we do get a youth player that stands out - Paterson and Hickey for example - they don't sign extensions when noticed and we get peanuts or nothing for them on leaving so the whole benefit of coaching a young lad from early teens to first team is somewhat lost. 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Smith's right boot said:

Players need to play, if they can't play here then playing at a lower level is best. 

 

In regards to going abroad, assuming teams want them it comes with the issue of a young lad all by himself in a country for a time - no friends or family. Many might not want that. 

 

A colts team would have benefits but right now I want a good team in the top flight so maybe it's a consideration for the medium term future. 

 

My opinion is that we strip back the youth set up, tie in with a boys club or even maybe Spartans / Edinburgh City and concentrate on the 18-22 ish  market in England. 

If we were at Aberdeens consistency, then a tie on with a big  English club might be an option as well as they'd be willing to loan us better players especially if we were in Europe every season. 

 

Very few of our young players will make it at Hearts and even fewer will make it at a higher level than Hearts, most will end up boosting our squad numbers then moving to a lower league team. Always been that way. 

 

Also, if we do get a youth player that stands out - Paterson and Hickey for example - they don't sign extensions when noticed and we get peanuts or nothing for them on leaving so the whole benefit of coaching a young lad from early teens to first team is somewhat lost. 

 

 


 

not unreasonable, that do you mean, strip back the youth set up?

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Smith's right boot
1 hour ago, Hesh said:


 

not unreasonable, that do you mean, strip back the youth set up?

 

Aye, I actually do, but it would need replaced with somthing such as a tie in with a  junior / senior club or lower level league team. 

Tynecastle fc? 

Spartans? 

Edinburgh City? 

Tie up youth football with a boy or boys clubs. 

 

I don't see how clubs like ours in general are going to benefit hugely from a youth set up. 

 

For it to work you need players that improve the first team to come through and play, then stay with us and play for a period of time, if they want to move they then need to sign an extension so we get money. 

 

Basically relying on a huge amount of luck. 

Good player, wants to stay, then signs an extension so we get money when they leave. 

How often does that happen to clubs like ours?

 

Even Hickey who went for a decent fee, due to him not extending we received maybe about a third of the money we may have hoped for. 

 

Players have no loyalty, they follow the cash especially when they are young and are faced with live changing amounts. 

 

The benefits of getting guys that are maybe 20-24 from big English clubs is that they are already loaded, know thier level and actually move for footballing reasons and not only money( although we need to be competitive). 

 

 

 

 

 

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Byyy The Light
1 hour ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

Aye, I actually do, but it would need replaced with somthing such as a tie in with a  junior / senior club or lower level league team. 

Tynecastle fc? 

Spartans? 

Edinburgh City? 

Tie up youth football with a boy or boys clubs. 

 

I don't see how clubs like ours in general are going to benefit hugely from a youth set up. 

 

For it to work you need players that improve the first team to come through and play, then stay with us and play for a period of time, if they want to move they then need to sign an extension so we get money. 

 

Basically relying on a huge amount of luck. 

Good player, wants to stay, then signs an extension so we get money when they leave. 

How often does that happen to clubs like ours?

 

Even Hickey who went for a decent fee, due to him not extending we received maybe about a third of the money we may have hoped for. 

 

Players have no loyalty, they follow the cash especially when they are young and are faced with live changing amounts. 

 

The benefits of getting guys that are maybe 20-24 from big English clubs is that they are already loaded, know thier level and actually move for footballing reasons and not only money( although we need to be competitive). 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've posted on here before about the idea of pooling budgets regionally and building out the performance schools concept to provide an elite pathway for top talent.  Rather than professional clubs all spending money replicating each other for very little return.

 

Could run a summer league to give us all something to go along and watch in the off season.  Edinburgh, Fife & Angus, Aberdeen, Highlands, Ayrshire, Glasgow, Lanarkshire etc.

 

A kind of take on how College sports work in America and then run a draft system to integrate players in to the professional set up.  That would make more sense to me than the current set up as I agree the academy is a big drain for very little return, it's bloated with guys who will never make it but they need to maintain squads to bring the odd one or 2 through.  

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1 hour ago, Byyy The Light said:

 

Could run a summer league to give us all something to go along and watch in the off season.  Edinburgh, Fife & Angus, Aberdeen, Highlands, Ayrshire, Glasgow, Lanarkshire etc.

 

 

 

At what age group(s)?

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Byyy The Light
2 hours ago, Hesh said:

 

At what age group(s)?


Haven’t gone in to the finer details in much thought. Probably 17s to 19s/20s

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Smith's right boot
4 hours ago, Byyy The Light said:

 

I've posted on here before about the idea of pooling budgets regionally and building out the performance schools concept to provide an elite pathway for top talent.  Rather than professional clubs all spending money replicating each other for very little return.

 

Could run a summer league to give us all something to go along and watch in the off season.  Edinburgh, Fife & Angus, Aberdeen, Highlands, Ayrshire, Glasgow, Lanarkshire etc.

 

A kind of take on how College sports work in America and then run a draft system to integrate players in to the professional set up.  That would make more sense to me than the current set up as I agree the academy is a big drain for very little return, it's bloated with guys who will never make it but they need to maintain squads to bring the odd one or 2 through.  

 

 

Yeah, lots of ways to do it. 

 

I do think alternative routes should be looked at. 

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Young players go to the lower leagues to become men, it may seem old fashioned but it still works.

There's less protection in these leagues and if the boys can cut it physically at that level, they will be just fine in the Premiership.

Also the idea it's full of dinosaurs it's quite out dated, there are plenty coaches in the lower leagues, junior and Youth football who want to play football and not hoofball.

 

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3 hours ago, Byyy The Light said:


Haven’t gone in to the finer details in much thought. Probably 17s to 19s/20s


Personally not a big fan of Academy below age 15/6 I think this can be covered by boys club and effective scouting. Not sold on a summer season and I’m not convinced it would be a big draw for people to watch . 
 

CAS teams season is 32 games plus cup. If you’re saying regionalise, even with a squad of 15 each merging hibs/hearts would be 30 players, are you just going heave 10 of them? How do the young players then get an opportunity to play for a first team at 16/17.

 

A bunch of Porty kids have just gone to Rangers and Motherwell, would that happen if regionalised? Would they have to go to the Edinburgh region? What if there are no opportunities in their position in their region. Would all the regions have to play the same style of football, what would happen if a regions style didn’t suit a players skill set. What happens if there are 5 great keepers in Glasgow and one in Lanarkshire. It comes across as restricting opportunities 
 

As for the draft system, couldn’t see it working here, as it seems to be based round the college system.   Do the Div2 teams get first dibs?  Is it restricted to Prem teams, full time teams? Who can afford the players.  What about promotion relegation then is there a release clause, what happens to transfers outside Scotland. I could go on.

 

I’ve been really neg here and I’m sure there are things that can be done better. I just get the impression the bottom line is some fans are unhappy about the cost of academy’s to the club but the reality is very few players will make to through to the top level regardless of the method employed but to me it’s about giving as many players as possible the opportunity 

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letsalllaughathobos

Bring back the reserve league, Young lads playing with seasoned pros with no real pressure to win every week, 

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Perth to Paisley

Euan Henderson sent out to Alloa.

 

I thought he would go to Partick Thistle to play on grass

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ToqueJambo
On 01/09/2021 at 01:44, Byyy The Light said:

What are people's thoughts on this?  Personally I think they are a waste of time and very rarely do they help players kick on.  I know the players still train at Oriam through the week but going to train and play with these part time teams with dinosaur coaches and get booted up and down the park doesn't exactly fit in to the philosophy of the academy to play decent football.  Inevitably they end up sitting on the bench and the "couldn't get game for Airdrie" quotes get rolled out.  The club also clearly don't think they are very effective as they made a loans manager a thing to try and improve the results.

 

There is a lot of chat about players not making the step up from promising academy players to the first team, so what is the alternative?  Should we be looking at Colts team so we can guarantee game time and focus on development rather than results?  Should we look abroad to lower divisions where the football is more technical and the players get a taste of another culture to develop?  What about some sort of reciprocal loan with whoever we take a player from i.e. Brighton with Cochrane, and we send a player to their 19s, 23s or whatever?

 

It was the Jack Hendry transfer that got me thinking about all this and how bad we (Scottish football) seem to be at player development. We've clearly got the players with the ability to step up as they are littered through the EPL, we just can't nurture it properly. 

 

 

 

 

I like the idea of sending them abroad. Only thing is it's harder for us to monitor them and keep them involved with the club, plus they might not want to come back!

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Visiting Seagull

Interesting discussion - forgive my ignorance as a Brighton fan of football north of the border, but do you have an U23 team and an U23 league? - it's just not been mentioned on this thread. I agree though that U23 football isn't the complete answer to developing young players.

The buy back option makes sense to me - but it's not been met favourably by fans down here (based, I have to say, on some very dodgy economic thinking). Loans are big business these days - I think we've got 20 out there somewhere this season - the loan manager's air miles must be phenominal!

We do have a cup competition down here, where PL2 U21 teams are matched against theams in the third and fourth divisions - mini league qualifying rounds, followed by knock-out rounds - not universally popular (!) but I like the idea!

Anyway, looks like you're looking after young Alex very nicely, so cheers for that - good luck to you - and him - for the rest of the season.

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Fxxx the SPFL

Connor Smith not in the Queens Park squad tonight he was one who I would have kept great engine 

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jamboinglasgow
3 minutes ago, **** the SPFL said:

Connor Smith not in the Queens Park squad tonight he was one who I would have kept great engine 

 

He's cup tied for the competition, he played for Hearts B in the same round on Tuesday.

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jamboinglasgow
31 minutes ago, Visiting Seagull said:

Interesting discussion - forgive my ignorance as a Brighton fan of football north of the border, but do you have an U23 team and an U23 league? - it's just not been mentioned on this thread. I agree though that U23 football isn't the complete answer to developing young players.

The buy back option makes sense to me - but it's not been met favourably by fans down here (based, I have to say, on some very dodgy economic thinking). Loans are big business these days - I think we've got 20 out there somewhere this season - the loan manager's air miles must be phenominal!

We do have a cup competition down here, where PL2 U21 teams are matched against theams in the third and fourth divisions - mini league qualifying rounds, followed by knock-out rounds - not universally popular (!) but I like the idea!

Anyway, looks like you're looking after young Alex very nicely, so cheers for that - good luck to you - and him - for the rest of the season.

 

Short answer is that there is no U23 or reserve competition, only an U18 competition.

 

The long answer is that until the end of the 2008/2009, it used to be a U19 and reserve leagues. After that it was a U19 league until 2012 when it was changed to an Under 20 league which then became a development league which allowed a couple of overage players. So it meant after U17 level, young players only had 1 level. This was changed in 2018 when they brought in an U18 league and a reserve league.

 

However after the first season of the reserve league, five teams pulled out (Aberdeen, Celtic, Rangers, Hibs and Celtic) so they can organise their own fixtures. This left 19 teams split between two leagues. But since Covid has struck there has been no reserve football and nothing talked about bringing it back.

 

Rangers and Celtic have been trying for years to get a B team in the SPFL lower leagues, but this season they managed to get them in the Lowland League (5th tier of Scottish football) for 1 season. This has gone down like a lead balloon among non-old firm fans and teams. They are still trying to get the B teams in the SPFL.

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Fxxx the SPFL
12 minutes ago, jamboinglasgow said:

 

He's cup tied for the competition, he played for Hearts B in the same round on Tuesday.

Wally thought it was a league game watched him against Edinburgh City and he was best player on pitch imo hopefully gets game time with QP otherwise it’ll be a waste of a loan 

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Visiting Seagull
10 minutes ago, jamboinglasgow said:

 

Short answer is that there is no U23 or reserve competition, only an U18 competition.

 

The long answer is that until the end of the 2008/2009, it used to be a U19 and reserve leagues. After that it was a U19 league until 2012 when it was changed to an Under 20 league which then became a development league which allowed a couple of overage players. So it meant after U17 level, young players only had 1 level. This was changed in 2018 when they brought in an U18 league and a reserve league.

 

However after the first season of the reserve league, five teams pulled out (Aberdeen, Celtic, Rangers, Hibs and Celtic) so they can organise their own fixtures. This left 19 teams split between two leagues. But since Covid has struck there has been no reserve football and nothing talked about bringing it back.

 

Rangers and Celtic have been trying for years to get a B team in the SPFL lower leagues, but this season they managed to get them in the Lowland League (5th tier of Scottish football) for 1 season. This has gone down like a lead balloon among non-old firm fans and teams. They are still trying to get the B teams in the SPFL.

Cheers, and thanks for filling me in. Seems a right mess up there for young players and youth development. That 19 teams in two divisions sounds like not a bad idea (and s*d the old firm!) - maybe if it had a requirement for a certain number of players to be U23 or U21? However, if no-one is talking about resurrectig the idea .................

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Byyy The Light
8 minutes ago, Visiting Seagull said:

Cheers, and thanks for filling me in. Seems a right mess up there for young players and youth development. That 19 teams in two divisions sounds like not a bad idea (and s*d the old firm!) - maybe if it had a requirement for a certain number of players to be U23 or U21? However, if no-one is talking about resurrectig the idea .................


It’s a car crash. Something needs done badly. Lots of issues with how the game is structured up here. The youth development is just one aspect that needs a drastic overhaul. The league set up being the major one.

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On 02/09/2021 at 13:49, Smith's right boot said:

 

Aye, I actually do, but it would need replaced with somthing such as a tie in with a  junior / senior club or lower level league team. 

Tynecastle fc? 

Spartans? 

Edinburgh City? 

Tie up youth football with a boy or boys clubs. 

 

I don't see how clubs like ours in general are going to benefit hugely from a youth set up. 

 

For it to work you need players that improve the first team to come through and play, then stay with us and play for a period of time, if they want to move they then need to sign an extension so we get money. 

 

Basically relying on a huge amount of luck. 

Good player, wants to stay, then signs an extension so we get money when they leave. 

How often does that happen to clubs like ours?

 

Even Hickey who went for a decent fee, due to him not extending we received maybe about a third of the money we may have hoped for. 

 

Players have no loyalty, they follow the cash especially when they are young and are faced with live changing amounts. 

 

The benefits of getting guys that are maybe 20-24 from big English clubs is that they are already loaded, know thier level and actually move for footballing reasons and not only money( although we need to be competitive). 

 

 

 

 

 


And after all the years you battered us with the “Levein is doing a fantastic job at the academy” line Tosh! 🙄

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Diadora Van Basten

I am not convinced loaning players out works. If a player is a good player but not physically developed they will have the same problem if they play for Hearts or if they are at Alloa.

 

In some cases they will have more of a problem as the football is less technical and more kick and chase at the lower league.

 

Alex Ferguson was an example of a manager who was good at bringing through youth players and one of the things he did was left space for them to come through whilst subsequent Man Utd managers have filled the squad with experience.

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What’s happening to Scott McGill at Airdrie. Injured ? Dropped ?  Back at Hearts ?

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1 hour ago, mitch41 said:

What’s happening to Scott McGill at Airdrie. Injured ? Dropped ?  Back at Hearts ?

Played in the bounce game v Airdrie so not injured

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