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Sharpie

Are young people governed by any discipline any more. Just reading the antics of the young now it does not really seem so.

 

Mine started in the house, Faither was boss, and Mum was his deputy, lack of discipline was rewarded with punishment the majority of which was physical.

 

School was another source the Janitor in charge of property, teacher with the strap, or 100 repetitive lines saying what I must or must not do.

 

Military most of us either as volunteers or conscripts to our different units where basic training was the source of disciplinary training, you were advised of the rules and process of answering for them explained.

 

In my own case the Guards Depot took the tutoring of discipline very seriously. Punishments often to fit the crime. The funny thing was the purpose was to teach you not to breach discipline, but the inference was you would ,and that was fine as long as you were prepared to pay the price of said breach. Discipline was a key to the performances in ceremonial and military action type duties. You had in both cases to do exactly what you had been taught and told to do, again punishment was available, but the greatest punishment would be the disdain of your comrades because you had let them down.

 

The discipline I was taught in all areas assisted me in life, most certainly career wise and and as a manager when I had the ability to make reasonable judgements on whether breaches required punishment and having the knowledge and confidence to administer if required the most severe such as termination of position. I often look back and ponder the three areas where I was most exposed to discipline, and I don't see one I would have had any other way, particularly the military phase.

 

If the children of today are not being taught the value of good behavior and observance of the rules it is sad to say but success in life could be difficult to achieve.

 

Spare the rod, spoil the child.

 

Edited by Sharpie
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FinnBarr Saunders

When I was young Bob, minor problems were dealt with by my mum with a slap across the face, bigger problems were dealt with by dad (just lost him on Monday aged 95) who did the arse beating thing. I know this might sound Monty Python but I respected him for it.

 

RIP Auld Tam

 

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Der Kaiser

Hope I don't regret this in later life...

 

But I've had absolutely no bother from my two lads (10 and 13). They're both smart cookies and stick in at school, plenty please and thank yous and genuinely considerate little chaps. 

I dont really recall ever having to shout at them. Sure they can be lazy and drop stuff everywhere but discipline has never been an issue.

 

I reckon Parents are failing a lot of these kids and we see the end result as these idiots in the meadows. And IMHO parenting isn't difficult. Quite simply spend plenty times with your kids growing up and have clear boundaries on behaviour and follow through on repercussions depending on their age. If you say final warning then it is final warning (one of my real pet peeves watching Parents issue final warning after final warning).

 

My time in mainstream teaching opened my eyes to how many kids are just neglected and ultimately go astray because the one or two people who should be there for guidance and support just don't give a feck.

 

If you don't plan on spending time with your kids then don't have them. Its really not that difficult. 

Or don't be surprised when they ignore you and treat you like shit.....its the one thing you actually taught them.

Edited by Der Kaiser
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milky_26

i have discipline and respect due to my parents. my father was a sergeant major and my mother in another time would be a karen. i knew if i was bad i would be in trouble

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FinnBarr Saunders
31 minutes ago, Der Kaiser said:

Hope I don't regret this in later life...

 

But I've had absolutely no bother from my two lads (10 and 13). They're both smart cookies and stick in at school, plenty please and thank yous and genuinely considerate little chaps. 

I dont really recall ever having to shout at them. Sure they can be lazy and drop stuff everywhere but discipline has never been an issue.

 

I reckon Parents are failing a lot of these kids and we see the end result as these idiots in the meadows. And IMHO parenting isn't difficult. Quite simply spend plenty times with your kids growing up and have clear boundaries on behaviour and follow through on repercussions depending on their age. If you say final warning then it is final warning (one of my real pet peeves watching Parents issue final warning after final warning).

 

My time in mainstream teaching opened my eyes to how many kids are just neglected and ultimately go astray because the one or two people who should be there for guidance and support just don't give a feck.

 

If you don't plan on spending time with your kids then don't have them. Its really not that difficult. 

Or don't be surprised when they ignore you and treat you like shit.....its the one thing you actually taught them.

 

My daughter (now 21 with her own baby). When she was 15/16 we realised she was likely to go out and rattle the drink with her 2 mates in the swing park. We checked with both other sets of parents if it was ok or not to bring them all to ours to drink if they were supervised, both sets were ok. Daughter has hardly touched alcohol since, lol

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John Findlay

My late father was my moral compass. He was born in Clydebank one of 14, but his own father ruled the house, with his mum his dad's backup. Bombed out of Clydebank when aged 3 and a half and evacuated to Coatbridge.  Called up for national service aged 18 1956, was put in the Royal Navy as a stoker. Liked it very much and ended up doing nine years instead of three.

My father seldom hit me, he didnt have too, the tone of his voice was enough.

Being mainly brought up in Royston and West Pilton in the 60s/70s, my dad knew he had to keep me on the straight and narrow. Sport was my outlet, Football, boxing and middle distance running, all kept me occupied and from hanging about street corners. 

"There's the line, that's your side, you stay that side, you ever step over this side and your life wont be worth living. Two things you will never do. Bring the Polis to the door or a lassie in trouble. Do you know what I mean?"

"Yes dad".

The message was loud and clear, and I never did either.

Followed in his footsteps and joined the Navy aged 16yrs and 5 months old as a junior radio operator(my dad didnt want me going anywhere near a dirty smelly engine room). Ended up doing eleven years, included the Falkland's war, aged 19 and two deployments to the Persian Gulf(1987 and 1988/89) when the Iranians and Iraqis were beating the crap out of each other. Joined a boy, definitely left as a man.

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7 hours ago, FinnBarr Saunders said:

 

My daughter (now 21 with her own baby). When she was 15/16 we realised she was likely to go out and rattle the drink with her 2 mates in the swing park. We checked with both other sets of parents if it was ok or not to bring them all to ours to drink if they were supervised, both sets were ok. Daughter has hardly touched alcohol since, lol

Sorry to hear about your dad.

 

our laddie mid teens is very much into his sport. When we’ve been abroad the last couple of years we’ve asked if he wanted a beer and got something not too strong. He rarely drank past the top of the label on the bottle. 
 

at home he sometimes goes round his pals, he’s likely only to take 2 cans of a 4 can pack and not drink both of those.

 

he has something to focus on and fortunately it’s not bevvy.

 

 

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AlimOzturk

Fwiw not every young person is an arsehole. My nephew, 17 years old, has just been accepted into Edinburgh uni to do engineering and plans to join the Royal Navy on completion. Never needed a firm hand or anything like that. Just decent parents who actually give a shit about his welfare and development. Think the myth that kids need to beaten with belts and rods is kinda just that, a myth. I actually hear my mum proudly boast about how she got the belt when she was younger and how that sorted her out. I mean, **** that for a laugh. What kind of sadistic prick could actually belt a child. 
 

I couldn’t ever bring myself to ever forgive myself for physically laying a hand on my kids. I have been close enough when they work themselves and that makes me guilty enough. **** having my kids frightened of me. 

Edited by AlimOzturk
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Riddley Walker
5 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said:

Fwiw not every young person is an arsehole. My nephew, 17 years old, has just been accepted into Edinburgh uni to do engineering and plans to join the Royal Navy on completion. Never needed a firm hand or anything like that. Just decent parents who actually give a shit about his welfare and development. Think the myth that kids need to beaten with belts and rods is kinda just that, a myth. I actually hear my mum proudly boast about how she got the belt when she was younger and how that sorted her out. I mean, **** that for a laugh. What kind of sadistic prick could actually belt a child. 

 

Agree with this. 

 

Most kids are decent, respectful and tolerant people, regardless of what some of the old school on here say. 

 

I have a 6 year old and I couldn't imagine ever lifting a finger to her, never mind allowing some sick ***** of a teacher to strike her with a belt. Barbaric and thankfully those days are long gone. She's a wee small thing, what kind of adult would actually hit a young kid? 

 

If you are loving and give your child attention and pass on your general decent values then they will mostly grow up to be a decent adult. It seems that the older generation see some teenagers in the media acting like dicks and think that all kids are like that. The current crop of teenagers/young adults will have their flaws like all generations did but at least this lot aren't wild bevvy and drug merchants like generations past (going by the stats) and have tolerance for different groups. 

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Carl Fredrickson

Thanks for this thread, I was talking about this with my mum on Saturday. I was brought up in quite a strict house. I was the youngest of 5 and show of emotions were rare. I have no recollection of either parent telling me they loved me though I have no doubt that they did. This I think would stem from their own upbringing. 

 

I only ever got the belt once and I truly deserved it. 

 

I now have my own kids, the first being born when I was 40. At the last parents night (phone calls) both their teachers praised them for their behaviour and for my oldest the teacher said he has good morals. They are both doing well at school but I try to impress on them the importance of being honest and fair too. Being divorced it can be hard as the standards at their mums can vary. 

 

I try to do my best and can but hope that they grow up to be decent folk who appreciate life and veer towards doing the right thing. 

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SectionDJambo

One of the things that irritates me is seeing a young mother out pushing a buggy, with a young child looking bored at the lack of communication with his/her mother, whilst that mother is devoting all of her attention to her mobile phone screen. What's more important, Facebook tittle tattle or your child?

Parents need to connect with their children from the start of their lives. Children are curious, imaginative and needing to be shown love and attention. They'll, usually, grow into good people if that's what they've been shown by their parents.

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Vlad Magic

Kids born out of love ie illegitimate is a big part of the problem. If you want a child you plan for it. You love and care for that child and guide it. You discipline it and teach that child what is right and what is wrong. You prepare that child for what lies ahead in life.

 

Too many kids these days are born out of a drunken weekend with no thought of contraception. A byproduct of a lack of responsibility. Sometimes worse. Deliberately conceived to generate more money from the government.

 

These poor kids have got no chance in life. The parents will say they love them which of course they do it’s their child. However Its a child born out of a mistake rather than born out of a deliberate act of love and foresight.

 

No wonder we have youngsters running around feral smashing bottles over peoples heads when the parents don’t actually give to flying ****s what they are up to and never actually have!!

 

 

 

 

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I wasn't brought up in a strict household, nor are my parents disciplinarians, but I was educated from a very young age about manners and the difference between right and wrong. It's stuck with me ever since. I despise rudeness in any way, shape or form and always try to treat others how I wish to be treated. I'm far from angelic, but I always show respect and politeness to anyone. My daughter gets the same education from me.

 

Manners cost you nothing, but they can get you the world. That's the phrase I was brought up on and it has stuck ever since.

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My mum and dad were strict. My mum used to leather me with rolling pins and wooden spoons. If I swore, I'd literally get my mouth washed out with soap and water. 

My dad used to keep a pair of Adidas Samba's handy to Sambarize me with if I was being a wee shite. I'm sure I've still got the Adidas classics badge on my erse. 

I don't think it made any odds as I was a wee shite until I was about 15-16. 

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Awbdy Oot
59 minutes ago, Vlad Magic said:

Kids born out of love ie illegitimate is a big part of the problem. If you want a child you plan for it. You love and care for that child and guide it. You discipline it and teach that child what is right and what is wrong. You prepare that child for what lies ahead in life.

 

Too many kids these days are born out of a drunken weekend with no thought of contraception. A byproduct of a lack of responsibility. Sometimes worse. Deliberately conceived to generate more money from the government.

 

These poor kids have got no chance in life. The parents will say they love them which of course they do it’s their child. However Its a child born out of a mistake rather than born out of a deliberate act of love and foresight.

 

No wonder we have youngsters running around feral smashing bottles over peoples heads when the parents don’t actually give to flying ****s what they are up to and never actually have!!

 

 

Too many blurred lines in your post imo. An illegitimate (not a good word) child born out of wedlock or unplanned does not mean an unloved child. Being a single parent child does not mean you will suffer a lack of love, discipline or guidance. You can have 2 parents who planned to have you and still lack these things.

 

My view on physical violence as a disciplinary tool for children is that it's a sign of poor parenting, thankfully in civilized Scotland it is against the law.

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Cut The Crap
11 hours ago, Der Kaiser said:

Hope I don't regret this in later life...

 

But I've had absolutely no bother from my two lads (10 and 13). They're both smart cookies and stick in at school, plenty please and thank yous and genuinely considerate little chaps. 

I dont really recall ever having to shout at them. Sure they can be lazy and drop stuff everywhere but discipline has never been an issue.

 

I reckon Parents are failing a lot of these kids and we see the end result as these idiots in the meadows. And IMHO parenting isn't difficult. Quite simply spend plenty times with your kids growing up and have clear boundaries on behaviour and follow through on repercussions depending on their age. If you say final warning then it is final warning (one of my real pet peeves watching Parents issue final warning after final warning).

 

My time in mainstream teaching opened my eyes to how many kids are just neglected and ultimately go astray because the one or two people who should be there for guidance and support just don't give a feck.

 

If you don't plan on spending time with your kids then don't have them. Its really not that difficult. 

Or don't be surprised when they ignore you and treat you like shit.....its the one thing you actually taught them.


Good post. It really isn’t as hard as a lot of folk would have you believe.

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Auldbenches
3 hours ago, Taffin said:

Ok Boomer.

This generation will be soon moaning at the next one having no discipline. 

Every generation gets accused of being worse.

Youngsters nowadays are campaigning for change a lot more than we did but just get demonised.

Wee savages everywhere but majority of kids are alright. 

 

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Dagger Is Back
1 hour ago, Vlad Magic said:

Kids born out of love ie illegitimate is a big part of the problem. If you want a child you plan for it. You love and care for that child and guide it. You discipline it and teach that child what is right and what is wrong. You prepare that child for what lies ahead in life.

 

Too many kids these days are born out of a drunken weekend with no thought of contraception. A byproduct of a lack of responsibility. Sometimes worse. Deliberately conceived to generate more money from the government.

 

These poor kids have got no chance in life. The parents will say they love them which of course they do it’s their child. However Its a child born out of a mistake rather than born out of a deliberate act of love and foresight.

 

No wonder we have youngsters running around feral smashing bottles over peoples heads when the parents don’t actually give to flying ****s what they are up to and never actually have!!

 

 

 

 

 

Ouch. You're entitled to your opinion of course but for me there's so much wrong in what you've posted. I'm wondering what personal experiences you have to support your views?

 

I work with kids and I know families of all different types. I know traditional families, gay couple families and single parent families. Thinking about the single parent families specifically I'd have to say that those kids are amongst the most well behaved, polite and grounded kids I've had the pleasure of working with. I can think of one wee lad who is just 8 that supports his Mum in a way that I could only dream of. All of these kids show an appreciation of what their parent faces each day and behave in a very mature and supportive way. 

 

I think there are lots of reasons why kids go off the rails and this isn't a new development is it? There have been little shits flying around for all time and indeed reading through Kickback you can see that those little shits are well represented here.

 

I think social media, celebrity culture, greed, watching people in 'positions' doing what he hell they want and getting away with it, as well as poor/lazy parenting are all factors., amongst many many others - it's a very complicated subject.

 

I think we also have to recognise that some people are just wired differently. It's a subject a wee bit too close to home for me, but sometimes it just doesn't matter how you try to bring up your child and what values you try to instil in them through life coaching or personal example. Believe me, when that fails to 'pay off' despite all the love and nurturing you've given it's one of the worst feelings in the world.

 

 

 

 

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Captain Sausage

Funny reading the boomer responses here. Back in the glory days of battering shite out of kids to make them behave, it ended in a society full of overachieving, well mannered people. 
 

And while many parents resort to the tablet to entertain their kids, I’d argue it’s on a par, if not better, than the parenting of old where kids were just completely ignored and left to get on with it themselves. The rose tinted glasses looking back on their childhood is frankly nonsense. 
 

Society has moved on. Some kids are arseholes today, much like some kids were arseholes back in the day. Some parents are shite, others are great. 
 

But do I yearn for the good old days of getting a skelp for misbehaving? No. It’s a disgusting way to educate kids. 

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BarneyBattles
3 minutes ago, Captain Sausage said:

Funny reading the boomer responses here. Back in the glory days of battering shite out of kids to make them behave, it ended in a society full of overachieving, well mannered people. 
 

And while many parents resort to the tablet to entertain their kids, I’d argue it’s on a par, if not better, than the parenting of old where kids were just completely ignored and left to get on with it themselves. The rose tinted glasses looking back on their childhood is frankly nonsense. 
 

Society has moved on. Some kids are arseholes today, much like some kids were arseholes back in the day. Some parents are shite, others are great. 
 

But do I yearn for the good old days of getting a skelp for misbehaving? No. It’s a disgusting way to educate kids. 


Spot on.

 

Assaulting kids should have been outlawed a long time ago.  
 

Rolling pins 🤦‍♀️ You get arrested and charged if you did that to someone in the street. 

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Sharpie

I started the thread but have been reading it and see where some of my life attitudes  could have come from. I have stressed the discipline system I lived under, but there was another aspect that I was quite old before I realised part of it, and it has been mentioned on here. Possibly if I mention it there is someone out there who can use the info. I have stated  the corporal punishment I received, at home and school. At home I was receptive to the system because my parents were my source of life, food, clothes, a roof over my head. At school they tried to educate me and I hated very minute I went there.

Funny enough the discipline of the Guards didn't bother me , I took to it easily, and they rewarded me with promotions to L/Cpl and L/Sgt. I would have signed on but had made a promise to my father I wouldn't and would use my service to advance my opportunity to fulfil his, not my, ambition of being a policeman. I done well in the military and well in the police. Two things were missing however.

In 1958 I met the girl who would be my wife, she was Canadian had been raised until eighteen on a farm in rural Saskatchewan, one of ten children of a strict German father and and mother.

 As my wife and mother of my children she used two words I don't ever recall hearing from my parents whom I loved and still do, they were what they were and had been raised to, the two words were love and proud. When I got career advancements she told me she was proud of me, if I carried out a small never done before domestic repair she told me she was proud of me, and for sixty two years at least once a day she told me she loved me, and the same with our kids any time she had contact with them.  Two simple words so easy to pronounce but for some so difficult to say.  Yes discipline and I am a strong advocate of it, to be of value must also have some respect and  reward.

 

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Captain Slog

I think Bob was spot on with the title here.  Discipline.  I don't think any right minded person would argue that violence is the answer nowadays, although many will come out with it as an initial reaction to the disgusting antics of a minority of youths, before they calm down. 

 

However, in the absence of physical discipline for those in their formative years, there doesn't seem to be an effective method to replace it.  I agree that the vast majority of kids brought up in a loving environment and given attention by their caregivers will thrive, but there seems to be a small minority now, not fortunate enough to have that care, that effectively have no boundaries.  Coupled with the unearned sense of entitlement, and desire to be seen to protest for protests sake in the snowflake generation, its no wonder a small number of the youths are feral.

 

I'm reminded that no boundaries at all is so very much more restrictive than having set values.  I just hope we can find a way to educate the few that grow up without having any to have some.  Unfortunately there currently doesn't appear to be any effective method, which is why 'Boomers' reminisce about parental physical discipline and National Service.

 

And as for the cheap dig at Sharpe being a 'Boomer', he's actually the silent generation, albeit a loquacious  one. 

 

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tian447

Unfortunately, there are a lot of the "older generation" who are just as undisciplined and badly behaved.

 

It's very easy to have this assumption that all young people are idiots who don't respect anything, and that older people are all polite and well mannered, and it's a very rose-tinted approach.  This is just not the case, and more often than not, the sense of entitlement that some older people have is staggering.  There are plenty of badly behaved older people, the sort who shove past you in shops, don't wait their turn in line properly, leave their rubbish behind them (or bag their dog shite up and throw it in a hedge), treat shop and restaurant workers badly, have terrible manners (or just don't show them to people they don't "know") or leave their mess behind for other people to deal with - but it's the same with younger people too.

 

If these people were "taught the value of good behavior and observance of the rules", what on Earth happened to it?

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Captain Slog
5 minutes ago, tian447 said:

Unfortunately, there are a lot of the "older generation" who are just as undisciplined and badly behaved.

 

It's very easy to have this assumption that all young people are idiots who don't respect anything, and that older people are all polite and well mannered, and it's a very rose-tinted approach.  This is just not the case, and more often than not, the sense of entitlement that some older people have is staggering.  There are plenty of badly behaved older people, the sort who shove past you in shops, don't wait their turn in line properly, leave their rubbish behind them (or bag their dog shite up and throw it in a hedge), treat shop and restaurant workers badly, have terrible manners (or just don't show them to people they don't "know") or leave their mess behind for other people to deal with - but it's the same with younger people too.

 

If these people were "taught the value of good behavior and observance of the rules", what on Earth happened to it?

Totally agree, there were self entitled, unrestrained idiots in my generation, I'm sure there was in Bobs, and in the younger.

 

Maybe, and I'm guilty of this, it isn't something we shouldn't play identity politics on (age this time), and focus on the small minority of all ages who don't have boundaries, and how society can get them to engage.

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Sharpie
21 minutes ago, tian447 said:

Unfortunately, there are a lot of the "older generation" who are just as undisciplined and badly behaved.

 

It's very easy to have this assumption that all young people are idiots who don't respect anything, and that older people are all polite and well mannered, and it's a very rose-tinted approach.  This is just not the case, and more often than not, the sense of entitlement that some older people have is staggering.  There are plenty of badly behaved older people, the sort who shove past you in shops, don't wait their turn in line properly, leave their rubbish behind them (or bag their dog shite up and throw it in a hedge), treat shop and restaurant workers badly, have terrible manners (or just don't show them to people they don't "know") or leave their mess behind for other people to deal with - but it's the same with younger people too.

 

If these people were "taught the value of good behavior and observance of the rules", what on Earth happened to it?

 

Absolutely correct, as an older person I am a bit disappointed in some of my peers who feel because they were part of a natural process that is ageing, that they are entitled to special treatment. I do not feel in any way that all children or young people are bad, sure they are different to me as I am to them. I envy some of their life attributes now, electronics TV, a different attitude to education and schooling, I am not sure but I think if I had been educated in todays system I may have gained success earlier. I was always considered a poor pupil, this was wrong I was just considered so because I rebelled at the system. When we sat our qualifying exam at eleven years of age, I aced the exam. This qualified me for bursaries to Heriots and Royal High then settled for Borough muir a waste of my time and theirs.

When I passed the exam so high my mother was summoned to the school to be advised they were investigating my obvious cheating, they were wrong and admitted it with total disbelief that I  had done it honestly. Later in life it was established that I had a "photographic memory" and that multiple choice as was the qualifying exams were a gift to me  No generation is the absolute perfect example for those following life, attitudes, technology changes everything, the only answer is to appreciate that age brings different attitudes, and as you age and I can assure you right or wrong I admit to thinking my system of learning was better than todays, but that actually may be just an indication of sadness that everything is changing and the older you get the more difficult it gets to keep up with.

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I think the people who are highlighting that you should talk to your kids, engage with them are spot on.

 

It might seem like nothing but I think even just all sitting together as a family around the dinner table and talking to each other is really important - rather than everyone sitting in their own room watching their own telly and eating off a tray...

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Maple Leaf

Soldiers need discipline because without discipline you don't have an army, you have an armed mob.

 

Children need discipline because they need to learn how society works.  But that discipline should never include physical assault.  Anyone who beats a child needs to get a grip of their emotions.

 

I was raised in a household where 'children should be seen and not heard' applied. 'Don't speak unless you're spoken to' was another rule, as was 'never interrupt an adult conversation.'  Breaking any of those rules meant immediate retribution which could anything from a bawling out to a slap on the face.  I didn't agree with that then, and I don't agree with it now.

 

"Spare the rod and spoil the child" is Biblical bullshit.  Children respond much more favourably to a reasonable discussion than to being physically assaulted.  Below is an extract from a website that discusses the Bible.  Anyone who believes that poison should be forbidden from having children. 

 

All children are born sinful (Romans 5:12–19). Their natural self is destructive and unrighteous. That does not mean they aren’t valuable and worthy of love (Psalm 127:3). It means that they are not born with any natural “goodness” in them. That is why all children need discipline. Proverbs 22:15 says, “Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far from him.”  

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FinnBarr Saunders
51 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said:

Soldiers need discipline because without discipline you don't have an army, you have an armed mob.

 

Children need discipline because they need to learn how society works.  But that discipline should never include physical assault.  Anyone who beats a child needs to get a grip of their emotions.

 

I was raised in a household where 'children should be seen and not heard' applied. 'Don't speak unless you're spoken to' was another rule, as was 'never interrupt an adult conversation.'  Breaking any of those rules meant immediate retribution which could anything from a bawling out to a slap on the face.  I didn't agree with that then, and I don't agree with it now.

 

"Spare the rod and spoil the child" is Biblical bullshit.  Children respond much more favourably to a reasonable discussion than to being physically assaulted.  Below is an extract from a website that discusses the Bible.  Anyone who believes that poison should be forbidden from having children. 

 

All children are born sinful (Romans 5:12–19). Their natural self is destructive and unrighteous. That does not mean they aren’t valuable and worthy of love (Psalm 127:3). It means that they are not born with any natural “goodness” in them. That is why all children need discipline. Proverbs 22:15 says, “Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far from him.”  

 

I agree with you Ron, children shouldn't be hit but I certainly was at school with the tawse, to be honest in that day and age I deserved it. But the bible thing "All children are born sinful" All children are born with "origional sin" according to the Catholic church, feckin nonsense, why should my 15 month old grandaughter have her life blighted by relligious loonies?

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Yes. The vast, vast majority of children / youths are absolutely fine.

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Maple Leaf
50 minutes ago, FinnBarr Saunders said:

 

I agree with you Ron, children shouldn't be hit but I certainly was at school with the tawse, to be honest in that day and age I deserved it. But the bible thing "All children are born sinful" All children are born with "origional sin" according to the Catholic church, feckin nonsense, why should my 15 month old grandaughter have her life blighted by relligious loonies?

 

You didn't deserve it, mate.  An adult physically assaulting a child is always wrong.

 

Your granddaughter is beautiful, innocent, and deserving of love.  Anyone who thinks she should be beaten for making a mistake needs their head examined.

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Auldbenches
3 hours ago, Maple Leaf said:

Soldiers need discipline because without discipline you don't have an army, you have an armed mob.

 

Children need discipline because they need to learn how society works.  But that discipline should never include physical assault.  Anyone who beats a child needs to get a grip of their emotions.

 

I was raised in a household where 'children should be seen and not heard' applied. 'Don't speak unless you're spoken to' was another rule, as was 'never interrupt an adult conversation.'  Breaking any of those rules meant immediate retribution which could anything from a bawling out to a slap on the face.  I didn't agree with that then, and I don't agree with it now.

 

"Spare the rod and spoil the child" is Biblical bullshit.  Children respond much more favourably to a reasonable discussion than to being physically assaulted.  Below is an extract from a website that discusses the Bible.  Anyone who believes that poison should be forbidden from having children. 

 

All children are born sinful (Romans 5:12–19). Their natural self is destructive and unrighteous. That does not mean they aren’t valuable and worthy of love (Psalm 127:3). It means that they are not born with any natural “goodness” in them. That is why all children need discipline. Proverbs 22:15 says, “Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far from him.”  

Really good post. 

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Sharpie
4 hours ago, Maple Leaf said:

Soldiers need discipline because without discipline you don't have an army, you have an armed mob.

 

Children need discipline because they need to learn how society works.  But that discipline should never include physical assault.  Anyone who beats a child needs to get a grip of their emotions.

 

I was raised in a household where 'children should be seen and not heard' applied. 'Don't speak unless you're spoken to' was another rule, as was 'never interrupt an adult conversation.'  Breaking any of those rules meant immediate retribution which could anything from a bawling out to a slap on the face.  I didn't agree with that then, and I don't agree with it now.

 

"Spare the rod and spoil the child" is Biblical bullshit.  Children respond much more favourably to a reasonable discussion than to being physically assaulted.  Below is an extract from a website that discusses the Bible.  Anyone who believes that poison should be forbidden from having children. 

 

All children are born sinful (Romans 5:12–19). Their natural self is destructive and unrighteous. That does not mean they aren’t valuable and worthy of love (Psalm 127:3). It means that they are not born with any natural “goodness” in them. That is why all children need discipline. Proverbs 22:15 says, “Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far from him.”  

  Its funny you raise the Bible in the discussion, at age twelve to enable my membership in the St Peters Church club it was also mentioned that being in the choir would be good, it was because we got paid. As far as the club was concerned it was good also. There was one wee thing though that bothered me, the minister a great guy a single man would enforce discipline in the club, it was done privately on the stage behind the drawn curtain. I was told six of the best were administered, I was to be disciplined and was told to report for my punishment, it was suggested I drop my pants for six of the best, I rejected the punishment and left. I did carry on in the Club and enjoyed it and even the minister but I was not sure of the administering of the punishment, I state there was no sexual connotation in the action, and never heard of any complaints it was just wrong to me, now I read today that it is wrong according to the bible, it raises some questions in my head if the laymen don't understand it shouldn't a minister understand it and its purpose unerringly.

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Maple Leaf
44 minutes ago, Sharpie said:

  Its funny you raise the Bible in the discussion, at age twelve to enable my membership in the St Peters Church club it was also mentioned that being in the choir would be good, it was because we got paid. As far as the club was concerned it was good also. There was one wee thing though that bothered me, the minister a great guy a single man would enforce discipline in the club, it was done privately on the stage behind the drawn curtain. I was told six of the best were administered, I was to be disciplined and was told to report for my punishment, it was suggested I drop my pants for six of the best, I rejected the punishment and left. I did carry on in the Club and enjoyed it and even the minister but I was not sure of the administering of the punishment, I state there was no sexual connotation in the action, and never heard of any complaints it was just wrong to me, now I read today that it is wrong according to the bible, it raises some questions in my head if the laymen don't understand it shouldn't a minister understand it and its purpose unerringly.

 

Hmm.  The minister wanting to spank a boy's bare bottom behind a curtain because the boy needed to be disciplined.   

 

OK. Sounds legit.  

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Auldbenches
11 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

Hmm.  The minister wanting to spank a boy's bare bottom behind a curtain because the boy needed to be disciplined.   

 

OK. Sounds legit.  

Of all the options available to him, he chose to do that.  Nothing sexual in that...

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GinRummy

I get what Bob is saying but things change. Children do need discipline but there is a difference between a swift palm across the bum and a beating. As soon as you start legislating it quickly becomes impossible to differentiate and there is too much middle ground. I was terrified of my old man when I was growing up and not in a good way. Both myself and my brother went completely off the rails for a number of years in our teens and twenties. Confused feelings between love and fear for a parent is a total head****.

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Riddley Walker
7 hours ago, Sharpie said:

  Its funny you raise the Bible in the discussion, at age twelve to enable my membership in the St Peters Church club it was also mentioned that being in the choir would be good, it was because we got paid. As far as the club was concerned it was good also. There was one wee thing though that bothered me, the minister a great guy a single man would enforce discipline in the club, it was done privately on the stage behind the drawn curtain. I was told six of the best were administered, I was to be disciplined and was told to report for my punishment, it was suggested I drop my pants for six of the best, I rejected the punishment and left. I did carry on in the Club and enjoyed it and even the minister but I was not sure of the administering of the punishment, I state there was no sexual connotation in the action, and never heard of any complaints it was just wrong to me, now I read today that it is wrong according to the bible, it raises some questions in my head if the laymen don't understand it shouldn't a minister understand it and its purpose unerringly.

 

Wow. That is horrific. 

Edited by Riddley Walker
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Greenbank2

IMO The big difference is entitlement culture. I knew families when I was a kid whose parents (particularly the father) were regarded as wasters. Kids were left to run feral, old man spent wages in the pub, mother sitting around drinking tea and smoking fags with similar minded neighbours. Often the kids were the scheme bams, and you did not want to see them attempting to join in whatever the rest were up to - it would always end badly. For the majority, you were taught to address your elders as Mr or Mrs, always have reverence (and some fear) of Policemen, your teachers were always right, and if you got belted, it was always your own fault and never confess at home , or you'd get it again! The attitude was work hard, stick in and you will better yourself. The problem was that this wasn't always true, and, particularly if you were not from a big city, upon emerging into the world you became aware of the many disparities in society that influence the way your life will take shape, but by then the die had been cast and your values were pretty much ingrained.

 

The biggest change is the move to what I would describe as entitlement culture. By that I mean society's move to encourage everyone to believe that they are entitled to things. At that mainly means "success". From the youngest age, we are now ingrained with messages that everyone is a winner, there are no losers, your are entitled to be successful. And parents amplify this. It is now the fault of the schools if they don't turn out little Einstein's - or if not it's a visit to the doctor to see what what excuse of a syndrome the kid can be labelled with. The attitude is that everyone has a right to a big telly, a new car, and degree, a gap year, time spent traveling, a 4 bedroom house with a double garage,... I could go on. Maybe I am just getting too old but how did we get to a position where there is now a "thing" called "Influencer" which is a badge of honour? We now have a couple of generation where entitlement without effort is underpinning the messaging which saturates everyday lives. Of course it is a message created by capitalist consumer society designed get people to acquire more stuff, get into more lifetime debt and compete with their neighbours.

 

Despite this, the majority of kids actually grow up being descent people, it's just that the pressure of entitlement and consumerism is turning a bigger proportion into the modern equivalent of the wasters of my day

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Captain Slog
4 hours ago, Greenbank2 said:

IMO The big difference is entitlement culture. I knew families when I was a kid whose parents (particularly the father) were regarded as wasters. Kids were left to run feral, old man spent wages in the pub, mother sitting around drinking tea and smoking fags with similar minded neighbours. Often the kids were the scheme bams, and you did not want to see them attempting to join in whatever the rest were up to - it would always end badly. For the majority, you were taught to address your elders as Mr or Mrs, always have reverence (and some fear) of Policemen, your teachers were always right, and if you got belted, it was always your own fault and never confess at home , or you'd get it again! The attitude was work hard, stick in and you will better yourself. The problem was that this wasn't always true, and, particularly if you were not from a big city, upon emerging into the world you became aware of the many disparities in society that influence the way your life will take shape, but by then the die had been cast and your values were pretty much ingrained.

 

The biggest change is the move to what I would describe as entitlement culture. By that I mean society's move to encourage everyone to believe that they are entitled to things. At that mainly means "success". From the youngest age, we are now ingrained with messages that everyone is a winner, there are no losers, your are entitled to be successful. And parents amplify this. It is now the fault of the schools if they don't turn out little Einstein's - or if not it's a visit to the doctor to see what what excuse of a syndrome the kid can be labelled with. The attitude is that everyone has a right to a big telly, a new car, and degree, a gap year, time spent traveling, a 4 bedroom house with a double garage,... I could go on. Maybe I am just getting too old but how did we get to a position where there is now a "thing" called "Influencer" which is a badge of honour? We now have a couple of generation where entitlement without effort is underpinning the messaging which saturates everyday lives. Of course it is a message created by capitalist consumer society designed get people to acquire more stuff, get into more lifetime debt and compete with their neighbours.

 

Despite this, the majority of kids actually grow up being descent people, it's just that the pressure of entitlement and consumerism is turning a bigger proportion into the modern equivalent of the wasters of my day

A very well considered post, I agree.

 

I'd also add that, somewhere in the last few generations, the changes are having an effect on the psychology of the younger generation, and not for the better.  There is a huge, logarithmic scale change in the number of young people with mental health issues.  And i think partly this is because they are brought up without any meaningful form of discipline or deterrent, so are confused about boundaries, and genuinely don't have the tools or experience to cope with the issues, or requirements, thrust upon them when they become young adults.  You say the die had been cast for you at an early age, i was similar, but i''d say the benefits from such conditioning far outweigh the negatives.

 

The current generation is just lost, especially those without a loving family to give them some sort of compass.

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I P Knightley
5 hours ago, Greenbank2 said:

IMO The big difference is entitlement culture. I knew families when I was a kid whose parents (particularly the father) were regarded as wasters. Kids were left to run feral, old man spent wages in the pub, mother sitting around drinking tea and smoking fags with similar minded neighbours. Often the kids were the scheme bams, and you did not want to see them attempting to join in whatever the rest were up to - it would always end badly. For the majority, you were taught to address your elders as Mr or Mrs, always have reverence (and some fear) of Policemen, your teachers were always right, and if you got belted, it was always your own fault and never confess at home , or you'd get it again! The attitude was work hard, stick in and you will better yourself. The problem was that this wasn't always true, and, particularly if you were not from a big city, upon emerging into the world you became aware of the many disparities in society that influence the way your life will take shape, but by then the die had been cast and your values were pretty much ingrained.

 

The biggest change is the move to what I would describe as entitlement culture. By that I mean society's move to encourage everyone to believe that they are entitled to things. At that mainly means "success". From the youngest age, we are now ingrained with messages that everyone is a winner, there are no losers, your are entitled to be successful. And parents amplify this. It is now the fault of the schools if they don't turn out little Einstein's - or if not it's a visit to the doctor to see what what excuse of a syndrome the kid can be labelled with. The attitude is that everyone has a right to a big telly, a new car, and degree, a gap year, time spent traveling, a 4 bedroom house with a double garage,... I could go on. Maybe I am just getting too old but how did we get to a position where there is now a "thing" called "Influencer" which is a badge of honour? We now have a couple of generation where entitlement without effort is underpinning the messaging which saturates everyday lives. Of course it is a message created by capitalist consumer society designed get people to acquire more stuff, get into more lifetime debt and compete with their neighbours.

 

Despite this, the majority of kids actually grow up being descent people, it's just that the pressure of entitlement and consumerism is turning a bigger proportion into the modern equivalent of the wasters of my day

It's that bloody Mrs Thatcher, isn't it?

 

There's another factor which I'm sure has an influence. Bob and John have both spoken of the value of having a strong, two-parent family unit. For better or worse, there are far more single-parent family units than there used to be and a lot of kids miss the discipline that tandem parenting can offer.

 

Not all single-parented kids are off the rails and not all kids who're off the rails are from single-parent families but my limited observation of it suggests that boys raised by mums are more likely to cause trouble.

 

One area where I see ill-discipline that is markedly greater than when I was their age is the behaviour of 14 to 16 year olds in Sunday football and, particularly, the aggression that they will show to referees and linesmen. I grew up playing rugby so my benchmark is slightly different but I'm sure that none of my football-playing mates would have yelled at a referee that he is an "Effing ******" as I witnessed on Sunday. The kid got sent off but, other than a 3 match ban, he won't suffer consequences that help him to understand that that's just not acceptable or appropriate.

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Sharpie

I guess now I read this it all depends on individual circumstances. My mother always laughed when speaking to someone who had asked me about my family my opinion as a child was given as poor but clean. My mother thought that was classic and so true. I often went out wearing my sisters hand me downs, got some jests but not too much because we were all in or close to the same boat, and quite frankly we all respected each other. I have related all my experiences of discipline,and have no problems with any of them. Discipline if used in an educational way can be beneficial, again most of the time for me it was physical. Punishments of today no tv, no phone, no I Pad, no striking with blows are different,  when you got nothing its difficult to take it away so other forms are used.

 

I mentioned army discipline, created to maintain good order and military discipline which are included with any disciplinary charges levelled against you. I can give a personal example of the use of discipline. Probably about March 1955, I was stationed at Wellington Barracks London. I was responsible for allotting to each barrack room a bin of coal for the coal fire inadequate stove for large barrack rooms. I gave an extra bucket to most of the rooms, unknown to me the sergeant in charge of the coal supply had markings on the floor and wall how much coal was required to supply the battalion. That night I went out and had a few beers to help my coal dust dry throat. When I returned the room was all excited Sgt Gourlay had traced the stolen coal and I was to report for  Commanding Officers Orders, on Monday after my guard ,those were the big ones. I was on a 48 hour guard that Saturday and paraded for orders on Monday.  I went in red tunic navy pants and diced cap. Big Spud the RSM met me and asked me how many buckets I had stolen i went through numbers and he shook his head and finally deciding six was enough. I was the marched in to the CO and the charge read. He told me that it was theft to do what I had done, but said he was impressed with my mucking in spirit and care of the men, but that I was wrong to do it with the Battalion coal. He fined me the cost of six buckets of coal.

I returned to the barrack room and was immediately told to report to the Company Commander,  I did and was told to report again to the CO. I did and figured it was for demotion, on entering the CO smiled and advised me on recommendation of the Company Commander and the Regimental Sergeant Major he was very happy to promote me to Lance Sergeant. Discipline enforced, but no continuances the punishment accepted, its over lets get on with life.

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J.T.F.Robertson

 

Bob, your life reminisces would make a pretty decent book. 👍

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Sharpie
31 minutes ago, J.T.F.Robertson said:

 

Bob, your life reminisces would make a pretty decent book. 👍

 

Jim a book of my stories would just show how stupid I really was who would think you could be given a job of dishing out coal without there being some control, if they wanted it that way they would have just had a pile of coal to help yourself. I'll show you how stupid I could be. When we started on the waterfront the longshoremen didn't like us and done things to pee us off. One day I was riding with a PC and we stopped at a ship on Lapointe Pier suddenly from high on the ship came shouts of derision and one was come up here without the hat and gun show what kind of man you are, I'll be waiting for you. Well I done a Boab lost patience and common sense and as a sergeant gave my hat and gun belt to the constable and took off up the gang plank. I went up the ladders and to the upper deck unapproached and never was. While I was up there someone phoned their Union Reps, they were waiting for me. They were smiling so I knew it wasn't too bad, they told me I was f'ing stupid but admitted it took guts, and most of the men were angry at their colleague and at least I had turned up and he with his mouth didn't. I was assured I would hear nothing more, and if I ever needed anything call them. I often wonder if the mouth had stayed how it would  have ended, definitely either way not good for me. But thats been me when the bell rang I lost common sense and answered, I did learn on a daily basis to think before acting but it took along time but as I aged I became perfect.

 

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doctor jambo

Never understood why anyone thinks that physically attacking someone teaches them  anything,

the issue with unruly kids, is that we are old farts now, and gloss over all the disruptive dumb annoying crap we used to do.

Underage drinking, shoplifting , vandalism, setting off fireworks, swearing, spitting, dripping litter, beach parties, done it all- and that’s with heavy handed parents.

you’d think teenagers never misbehaved until this generation .

punks/mods/razor gangs/hippies/ ravers/ rockers.

every generation is the same.

we just got old

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Sharpie
7 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

Never understood why anyone thinks that physically attacking someone teaches them  anything,

the issue with unruly kids, is that we are old farts now, and gloss over all the disruptive dumb annoying crap we used to do.

Underage drinking, shoplifting , vandalism, setting off fireworks, swearing, spitting, dripping litter, beach parties, done it all- and that’s with heavy handed parents.

you’d think teenagers never misbehaved until this generation .

punks/mods/razor gangs/hippies/ ravers/ rockers.

every generation is the same.

we just got old

 I have no disagreement with what you say we all had our misbehaviors which were predicated by the times. So often in the 1940's would I have heard the comment you wee brats you widnae get away wi' that in my day. Now I am saying it in the present day. Kid mischief comes with childhood, some changes because of the era, and some old favorites. Having said that though throwing bricks at buses, gathering in crowds of hundreds possibly to watch fights occurring or be a combatant is a bit different.  I was raised with the understanding that you could step out of line if you wanted, but ultimately you would pay a price, again for some violations physical punishment was deemed appropriate. I do not argue the impropriety of physical action, but like everything else in life if you remove something you should replace it, hopefully with something better.

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doctor jambo
3 minutes ago, Sharpie said:

 I have no disagreement with what you say we all had our misbehaviors which were predicated by the times. So often in the 1940's would I have heard the comment you wee brats you widnae get away wi' that in my day. Now I am saying it in the present day. Kid mischief comes with childhood, some changes because of the era, and some old favorites. Having said that though throwing bricks at buses, gathering in crowds of hundreds possibly to watch fights occurring or be a combatant is a bit different.  I was raised with the understanding that you could step out of line if you wanted, but ultimately you would pay a price, again for some violations physical punishment was deemed appropriate. I do not argue the impropriety of physical action, but like everything else in life if you remove something you should replace it, hopefully with something better.

When you remove violence as a disciplinary tool, no matter what it is replaced with is better....

I also think many of today’s kids are more compassionate, considerate and accepting than previous generations.

they are certainly less bigoted 

 

 

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AlphonseCapone

Most kids today have discipline, manners etc. Most kids in all generations had discipline, manners I'm sure. There's no real differences between generations. If you think your generation was better, you're wrong, regardless of what generation you mean. 

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J.T.F.Robertson
7 hours ago, Sharpie said:

 

Jim a book of my stories would just show how stupid I really was who would think you could be given a job of dishing out coal without there being some control, if they wanted it that way they would have just had a pile of coal to help yourself. I'll show you how stupid I could be. When we started on the waterfront the longshoremen didn't like us and done things to pee us off. One day I was riding with a PC and we stopped at a ship on Lapointe Pier suddenly from high on the ship came shouts of derision and one was come up here without the hat and gun show what kind of man you are, I'll be waiting for you. Well I done a Boab lost patience and common sense and as a sergeant gave my hat and gun belt to the constable and took off up the gang plank. I went up the ladders and to the upper deck unapproached and never was. While I was up there someone phoned their Union Reps, they were waiting for me. They were smiling so I knew it wasn't too bad, they told me I was f'ing stupid but admitted it took guts, and most of the men were angry at their colleague and at least I had turned up and he with his mouth didn't. I was assured I would hear nothing more, and if I ever needed anything call them. I often wonder if the mouth had stayed how it would  have ended, definitely either way not good for me. But thats been me when the bell rang I lost common sense and answered, I did learn on a daily basis to think before acting but it took along time but as I aged I became 

 

You're only reinforcing my point. ;)

We've all been daft numerous times, your "daftness" took a lot more balls than mine ever did.

Stay well, my friend.

 

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I P Knightley
12 hours ago, doctor jambo said:

 

I also think many of today’s kids are more compassionate, considerate and accepting than previous generations.

they are certainly less bigoted 

 

 

You make a very good point.

Note to self to try to stop being so negative. I blame Budge, Levein and Neilson!

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Lord BJ

If you find yourself agreeing with Gavin Williamson, you really need to re-asses your views

 

It seems a hobby for many, older people, is to try and demonise the younger generations is a hobby.

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