Jump to content

Our FoH donations


Lone Striker

Recommended Posts

Maybe this is a bit premature, but bear with me.    There's been a fair bit of chat here since yesterday's debacle about lack of heart from the players, Robbie's out-of-touch comment about us battering Alloa, and Ann being the wrong person to run a big football club.   Many of us  agree that there seems to be something wrong with the culture within the club which is affecting how players perform.    If Andrew McKinlay and Robbie Neilson can't improve things, what should/could we (FoH contributors) do to exert pressure on the directors to force  radical change  ?     

 

Out of our  pure love of Hearts, we are handing over  around £ 150k  each month with  no strings attached -  free unearned money for the club to spend as they see fit.      Once the Covid crisis is over and FoH take ownership of the Bidco shares,  is it right that the no-strings-attached scenario should remain unchanged ?         Should the 2 FoH reps on the HMFC board be required to publish  a spending plan at each FoH AGM  for members to approve or reject ?     

 

In a worsening economic situation, many members' personal circumstances could change to the point where they have to cancel or reduce their donations - but the monthly total will likely remain substantial. Even £ 100k per month for 4 months would probably be enough to buy a good young Scottish player and pay his wages for a year.   

 

In simple terms, how do we leverage "our value" for the benefit of everyone connected with Hearts (including ourselves)  ?

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 147
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

  • Footballfirst

    22

  • davemclaren

    20

  • Jambo61

    15

  • Lone Striker

    12

Fxxx the SPFL
1 minute ago, Lone Striker said:

Maybe this is a bit premature, but bear with me.    There's been a fair bit of chat here since yesterday's debacle about lack of heart from the players, Robbie's out-of-touch comment about us battering Alloa, and Ann being the wrong person to run a big football club.   Many of us  agree that there seems to be something wrong with the culture within the club which is affecting how players perform.    If Andrew McKinlay and Robbie Neilson can't improve things, what should/could we (FoH contributors) do to exert pressure on the directors to force  radical change  ?     

 

Out of our  pure love of Hearts, we are handing over  around £ 150k  each month with  no strings attached -  free unearned money for the club to spend as they see fit.      Once the Covid crisis is over and FoH take ownership of the Bidco shares,  is it right that the no-strings-attached scenario should remain unchanged ?         Should the 2 FoH reps on the HMFC board be required to publish  a spending plan at each FoH AGM  for members to approve or reject ?     

 

In a worsening economic situation, many members' personal circumstances could change to the point where they have to cancel or reduce their donations - but the monthly total will likely remain substantial. Even £ 100k per month for 4 months would probably be enough to buy a good young Scottish player and pay his wages for a year.   

 

In simple terms, how do we leverage "our value" for the benefit of everyone connected with Hearts (including ourselves)  ?

 

 

FoH money was never meant to be used to buy players or supplement their wages that was my understanding

Link to post
Share on other sites
Footballfirst
2 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

In simple terms, how do we leverage "our value" for the benefit of everyone connected with Hearts (including ourselves)  ?

99% of FOH members voted for an FOH governance model that gave FOH no say about how the club is run.

 

There is an AGM coming up in January if you want to raise the issue again. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, **** the SPFL said:

FoH money was never meant to be used to buy players or supplement their wages that was my understanding

For the first x number of years, thats fair enough. But there must come a point where our level of contribution becomes greater than any planned capital infrastructure  spend for the coming year.    When that happens, shouldn't  Hearts either  tell us to stop donating .... or else start to use the money for normal revenue spend (wages, transport, energy bills  etc)  ?    

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

99% of FOH members voted for an FOH governance model that gave FOH no say about how the club is run.

 

There is an AGM coming up in January if you want to raise the issue again. 

My fault for not paying attention to details like that, FF - sorry - but don't the 2 reps on the HMFC board  have (or will have when FoH becomes majority shareholder) influence on how the club is run ?

Link to post
Share on other sites

I pay my sub not because I am a superan and think I'm better than anyone else. I pay it so if the shit does hit the fan again we still have a football club to follow. 

 

It's as simple as that for me. 

Do people actually forget just how realistically close we came to going to the wall?? 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Shouldn’t be  used to buy players (directly).  Donations spunked on the likes of some of the players we have recruited would make me sick to my stomach.  
 

It should go on infrastructure/ academy etc 

Edited by 1971fozzy
Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Restonbabe said:

I pay my sub not because I am a superan and think I'm better than anyone else. I pay it so if the shit does hit the fan again we still have a football club to follow. 

 

It's as simple as that for me. 

Do people actually forget just how realistically close we came to going to the wall?? 

👍

Link to post
Share on other sites
Footballfirst
9 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

My fault for not paying attention to details like that, FF - sorry - but don't the 2 reps on the HMFC board  have (or will have when FoH becomes majority shareholder) influence on how the club is run ?

The two FOH reps on the club board are simply nodding dogs to agree what AB proposes. She has her own in built majority of her own appointments on the Board in any event.

 

AB runs the club and will continue to do so as long as she has a stake in it, which she will retain following the transfer of the majority shareholding, when/if that ever takes place.

Link to post
Share on other sites
SectionDJambo
9 minutes ago, 1971fozzy said:

The day my donations are used to buy players (directly) is when I stop.   Donations spunked on the likes of some of the players we have recruited would make me sick to my stomach.  
 

It should go on infrastructure/ academy etc 

I agree.

We want the funds to be used to provide something that will be there for years to come, not on players who come and go. 
The funds are for our club, and it’s secure future.

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Restonbabe said:

I pay my sub not because I am a superan and think I'm better than anyone else. I pay it so if the shit does hit the fan again we still have a football club to follow. 

 

It's as simple as that for me. 

Do people actually forget just how realistically close we came to going to the wall?? 

 

Once the final payment to Ann is made and shares transferred to FoH - and once the Covid crisis is over - how are future donations ensuring we will still have a club ?    

 

8 minutes ago, 1971fozzy said:

The day my donations are used to buy players (directly) is when I stop.   Donations spunked on the likes of some of the players we have recruited would make me sick to my stomach.  
 

It should go on infrastructure/ academy etc 

 

Hasn't  our money  allowed the club to do the stand and pitch projects, without having to cutback on bringing in some honking players  every window for the last 2 years ?  We've basically enabled it to happen.

 

16 minutes ago, Jamie Walker Tash said:

We pay thousands. It gets wasted. Will i stop? No.

 

I don't intend to stop either ...... but how do we try to stop it getting wasted ?

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Footballfirst
Just now, jr ewing said:

FOH  money is spent on the infrastructure of the club. 

Not since the £3m towards the stand redevelopment was handed over. All funds since then have just gone into working capital for the club to use it as it chooses. That will continue post transfer, as AB has requested full flexibility on how it is spent.

Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

Not since the £3m towards the stand redevelopment was handed over. All funds since then have just gone into working capital for the club to use it as it chooses. That will continue post transfer, as AB has requested full flexibility on how it is spent.

Working capital, infrastructure of club, what’s the difference? 

Link to post
Share on other sites
been here before
36 minutes ago, Restonbabe said:

I pay my sub not because I am a superan and think I'm better than anyone else. I pay it so if the shit does hit the fan again we still have a football club to follow. 

 

It's as simple as that for me. 

Do people actually forget just how realistically close we came to going to the wall?? 

 

Thats exactly why I pay mine. Anything else is just needless sentimentality.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

Working capital, infrastructure of club, what’s the difference? 

Paying the bills and wages, probably  - some of which will be related to infrastructure, but most will not.    

Link to post
Share on other sites
Footballfirst
5 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

Working capital, infrastructure of club, what’s the difference? 

Working capital is used for day to day running costs, like player wages, rates, utilities etc.

 

Infrastructure, to my mind, is capital spend on things like the stadium redevelopment, or the purchase of other tangible assets.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Lone Striker said:

Paying the bills and wages, probably  - some of which will be related to infrastructure, but most will not.    

Infrastructure maintenance generates bills and in many cases wages. What’s the difference? 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Jamie Walker Tash
22 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

 

 

 

I don't intend to stop either ...... but how do we try to stop it getting wasted ?

 

 

If i could answer that Id be running the club mate. Seriously tho we know a lot has went to wages to shite players, for me that hurts the most.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, soonbe110 said:

Infrastructure maintenance generates bills and in many cases wages. What’s the difference? 

I assume you're thinking of the stadium manager, security manager, restaurant staff  etc - I was referring to all wages, including players & coaches.  FF has mentioned it too - it's all going into a big pot now.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Footballfirst
1 minute ago, soonbe110 said:

Infrastructure maintenance generates bills and in many cases wages. What’s the difference? 

You are correct that maintenance is an ongoing cost and in most respects is money that goes out the door with no return.

 

Infrastructure spending should leave you with assets that retain their value over time. Ultimately their vale will be written down over the period of their useful life, e.g. a lawn mower may have a value over five years, or a new stand over 50 years.

Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

Not since the £3m towards the stand redevelopment was handed over. All funds since then have just gone into working capital for the club to use it as it chooses. That will continue post transfer, as AB has requested full flexibility on how it is spent.

 

Most of the money since then has gone towards finishing paying off the Bidco loan, it's only in the last 6 months or so since we paid off the loan that FOH funds have become available as working capital, and given the Covid-19 scenario, it's no doubt helped us that we have those extra funds during a difficult period.

 

What happens in the longer term is my main concern.  AB may have requested full flexibility in how the money is spent, but FOH is the controlling shareholder, so surely we determine how the money is spent.  If Ann isn't happy, FOH can vote her off the Board, along with any other Board member that we're not happy with.  We might start with 2 FOH reps on the Board, but we can change that if we feel the need to do so.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Footballfirst said:

Working capital is used for day to day running costs, like player wages, rates, utilities etc.

 

Infrastructure, to my mind, is capital spend on things like the stadium redevelopment, or the purchase of other tangible assets.

Are things like playing staff, etc not the real infrastructure costs in a football club. They dwarf everything else other than major capital projects. FoH donations were always intended to support the football club in whatever area needed our support. Initially it was keeping us afloat by repaying Budges contribution. Vast majority of FoH money has been used to either repay budge or help with running costs of the club. Whether these are day to day costs or capital projects is irrelevant imo. The whole ethos of FoH is for fans to help fund their club and ensure its longevity. I don’t think anyone at FoH ever intended for it to take on day to day ownership and management of the club. Unfortunately a lot of fans think that’s what was intended.  As was pointed out by many at the time, it’s a potential car crash waiting to happen. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Footballfirst
1 minute ago, RobNox said:

 

Most of the money since then has gone towards finishing paying off the Bidco loan, it's only in the last 6 months or so since we paid off the loan that FOH funds have become available as working capital, and given the Covid-19 scenario, it's no doubt helped us that we have those extra funds during a difficult period.

 

What happens in the longer term is my main concern.  AB may have requested full flexibility in how the money is spent, but FOH is the controlling shareholder, so surely we determine how the money is spent.  If Ann isn't happy, FOH can vote her off the Board, along with any other Board member that we're not happy with.  We might start with 2 FOH reps on the Board, but we can change that if we feel the need to do so.

You are correct re the loan repayments. However the loan was repaid in January.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Footballfirst said:

You are correct re the loan repayments. However the loan was repaid in January.

 

OK FF, for some reason I thought it was later, around April, but good to know we've benefitted from 10 months of FOH funds boosting our working capital during these difficult times.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think there's room for improvement in FoH's relationship with the club. I think a breakdown of how our donation is to be spent shouldn't be too much to expect. Nothing will happen however until Budge is gone....

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

Are things like playing staff, etc not the real infrastructure costs in a football club. They dwarf everything else other than major capital projects. FoH donations were always intended to support the football club in whatever area needed our support. Initially it was keeping us afloat by repaying Budges contribution. Vast majority of FoH money has been used to either repay budge or help with running costs of the club. Whether these are day to day costs or capital projects is irrelevant imo. The whole ethos of FoH is for fans to help fund their club and ensure its longevity. I don’t think anyone at FoH ever intended for it to take on day to day ownership and management of the club. Unfortunately a lot of fans think that’s what was intended.  As was pointed out by many at the time, it’s a potential car crash waiting to happen. 

 

Playing staff and other staff costs are treated a revenue costs, along with any other costs that re req

Link to post
Share on other sites
Footballfirst
18 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

Are things like playing staff, etc not the real infrastructure costs in a football club. They dwarf everything else other than major capital projects. FoH donations were always intended to support the football club in whatever area needed our support. Initially it was keeping us afloat by repaying Budges contribution. Vast majority of FoH money has been used to either repay budge or help with running costs of the club. Whether these are day to day costs or capital projects is irrelevant imo. The whole ethos of FoH is for fans to help fund their club and ensure its longevity. I don’t think anyone at FoH ever intended for it to take on day to day ownership and management of the club. Unfortunately a lot of fans think that’s what was intended.  As was pointed out by many at the time, it’s a potential car crash waiting to happen. 

FOH started off with only two aims, 1) to save the club (the first £3.8m did that by providing working capital), and 2) deliver Fan ownership (the next £2.5m was earmarked to repay the Bidco loan and purchase the shares). That was the extent of the plans.

 

It was only around the time that the redevelopment was being considered that the "pledge for life" mantra was born.

 

Edit: On checking back on my notes, at the FOH AGM in December 2015 the then chairman, Brian Cormack, stated “if we continue supporting the club as we have, how far can we go? Could it be that the club continues to receive additional revenue through the FOH from the fan base for life? That is a decision to be made as we move forward.

 

That shows that for the first two years and more of pledges being taken,  the scope was limited just to saving the club and acquiring majority ownership of the club..

Edited by Footballfirst
Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Section Q said:

I think there's room for improvement in FoH's relationship with the club. I think a breakdown of how our donation is to be spent shouldn't be too much to expect. Nothing will happen however until Budge is gone....

Reps should be able to ask all members queries no matter how mundane that they may appear to anyone else. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Boof said:

Whatever FoH cash is spent upon...surely it just means that other sources of income can be used for players/wages etc...dunnit?

👍 Yes

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

Are things like playing staff, etc not the real infrastructure costs in a football club. They dwarf everything else other than major capital projects. FoH donations were always intended to support the football club in whatever area needed our support. Initially it was keeping us afloat by repaying Budges contribution. Vast majority of FoH money has been used to either repay budge or help with running costs of the club. Whether these are day to day costs or capital projects is irrelevant imo. The whole ethos of FoH is for fans to help fund their club and ensure its longevity. I don’t think anyone at FoH ever intended for it to take on day to day ownership and management of the club. Unfortunately a lot of fans think that’s what was intended.  As was pointed out by many at the time, it’s a potential car crash waiting to happen. 

 

I'll start again, a bit of a cock up on my previous response, which I can't seem to be able to edit.

 

Playing staff and other staff costs are treated a revenue costs, along with any other costs that relate to the ongoing running of a business.  Infrastructure spend would be regarded as investment spend, over and above the day to day running costs, sometimes discretionary spend (e.g. we didn't necessarily have to build a new main stand to stay in business, but we saw some financial benefit in making the investment) sometimes essential spend (e.g. we had to invest in new stands 25+ years ago because regulations said we had to have an all seated stadium, regardless of whether we made any financial benefit from building the new stands.  If we didn't build them, we'd suffer a huge financial dis-benefit from having vastly fewer numbers of fans at games).

 

I was always of the view that once the Bidco loan was repaid, FOH funds should be directed to investment spend, rather than being treated as extra revenue.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Boof said:

Whatever FoH cash is spent upon...surely it just means that other sources of income can be used for players/wages etc...dunnit?

 

You are correct, but I'd like to see tangible examples of FOH cash making a difference by investing in specific things that we can associate to FOH funding, rather than the FOH cash just going into a wider pot of spending money.

 

I think it's important in maintaining future generations of FOH pledgers that we can point to specific things that pledgers have contributed to over and above the day to day running of the club.

Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, RobNox said:

 

You are correct, but I'd like to see tangible examples of FOH cash making a difference by investing in specific things that we can associate to FOH funding, rather than the FOH cash just going into a wider pot of spending money.

 

I think it's important in maintaining future generations of FOH pledgers that we can point to specific things that pledgers have contributed to over and above the day to day running of the club.

I agree, and have raised the point at several FoH agms, but this was not what is in the approved governence. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

I agree, and have raised the point at several FoH agms, but this was not what is in the approved governence. 

 

I know that you have made the same point before Dave, as has FF, and I'm firmly in the same camp as you guys.  I guess this is one of the problems of having so called fan ownership.  Certain individuals will become reps of a large group of fans, the majority of whom won't really give a shit and those that give a shit will never have a big enough voice to really challenge the individuals who hold the power.

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Restonbabe said:

I pay my sub not because I am a superan and think I'm better than anyone else. I pay it so if the shit does hit the fan again we still have a football club to follow. 

 

It's as simple as that for me. 

Do people actually forget just how realistically close we came to going to the wall?? 

This. So many with short memories who throw their teddies out the pram as soon as things get rough. Pathetic!

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, RobNox said:

 

You are correct, but I'd like to see tangible examples of FOH cash making a difference by investing in specific things that we can associate to FOH funding, rather than the FOH cash just going into a wider pot of spending money.

 

I think it's important in maintaining future generations of FOH pledgers that we can point to specific things that pledgers have contributed to over and above the day to day running of the club.

This

Link to post
Share on other sites

For anyone who hasn't read This is my Story, read it.  For anyone who has read it, read it again.  That's what I'm doing now.

 

We must continue our pride in FoH and keep it going.  

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Biggest worry for me is after so many poor performances over the last few years that the fans trying to help the club bcome as disinterested as the players seem to be and stop their donations

Link to post
Share on other sites
The Treasurer

As has been pointed out, there is an AGM coming up.

Anyone who feels that FoH is not doing enough to influence club policy can put themselves up for election.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Jamie Walker Tash said:

We pay thousands. It gets wasted. Will i stop? No.

 

10 hours ago, Restonbabe said:

I pay my sub not because I am a superan and think I'm better than anyone else. I pay it so if the shit does hit the fan again we still have a football club to follow. 

 

It's as simple as that for me. 

Do people actually forget just how realistically close we came to going to the wall?? 

 

10 hours ago, stevie1874 said:

👍

 

10 hours ago, One five said:

Same here 👍

 

And here.👍

Edited by upgotheheads
Link to post
Share on other sites

Despite how pissed off I am with certain things going on at the club at the moment and there will be thousands of other FOH contributors feeling the same 

I would urge all to keep their subs going. We will still be here when all  these charlatans are long gone. Better times will come. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I have been a supporter a long long time, longer than most posters on kickback have been alive I'm guessing. For all of that time Hearts have been pretty crap. Our current crapness is not the exception, unfortunately it's the rule. I started supporting Hearts (that is, going by myself after my dad stopped going) at the end of the glory year in the early sixties. I remember the mostly dire seventies and early eighties, the all too brief revival of the MacDonald/Jardine years, the false dawns of Mercer and Robinson, and the hilarious shambles of Mad Vlad. The first time I saw Hearts win anything was 98. My 13 and 11 year old sons had then seen Hearts win as many trophies as their near 50 year old Dad, in fact the years since then have been relatively successful when compared to the 40 years before.

 

The fact is Hearts have always underperformed in my opinion. I make this point to those who would kick out Ann Budge and think it would solve all our problems;  be careful what you wish for.

 

Here endeth the lesson.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Fluorescent Adolescent
1 hour ago, otterjohn said:

Biggest worry for me is after so many poor performances over the last few years that the fans trying to help the club bcome as disinterested as the players seem to be and stop their donations


A Hibs fans wet dream.

 

Hearts fans are made of stronger stuff. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, otterjohn said:

Biggest worry for me is after so many poor performances over the last few years that the fans trying to help the club bcome as disinterested as the players seem to be and stop their donations


We are made of sterner stuff. 

 

 

 

 

26 minutes ago, upgotheheads said:

I have been a supporter a long long time, longer than most posters on kickback have been alive I'm guessing. For all of that time Hearts have been pretty crap. Our current crapness is not the exception, unfortunately it's the rule. I started supporting Hearts (that is, going by myself after my dad stopped going) at the end of the glory year in the early sixties. I remember the mostly dire seventies and early eighties, the all too brief revival of the MacDonald/Jardine years, the false dawns of Mercer and Robinson, and the hilarious shambles of Mad Vlad. The first time I saw Hearts win anything was 98. My 13 and 11 year old sons had then seen Hearts win as many trophies as their near 50 year old Dad, in fact the years since then have been relatively successful when compared to the 40 years before.

 

The fact is Hearts have always underperformed in my opinion. I make this point to those who would kick out Ann Budge and think it would solve all our problems;  be careful what you wish for.

 

Here endeth the lesson.


Great post. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, upgotheheads said:

I have been a supporter a long long time, longer than most posters on kickback have been alive I'm guessing. For all of that time Hearts have been pretty crap. Our current crapness is not the exception, unfortunately it's the rule. I started supporting Hearts (that is, going by myself after my dad stopped going) at the end of the glory year in the early sixties. I remember the mostly dire seventies and early eighties, the all too brief revival of the MacDonald/Jardine years, the false dawns of Mercer and Robinson, and the hilarious shambles of Mad Vlad. The first time I saw Hearts win anything was 98. My 13 and 11 year old sons had then seen Hearts win as many trophies as their near 50 year old Dad, in fact the years since then have been relatively successful when compared to the 40 years before.

 

The fact is Hearts have always underperformed in my opinion. I make this point to those who would kick out Ann Budge and think it would solve all our problems;  be careful what you wish for.

 

Here endeth the lesson.

Great post upgotheheads. im 64 and started going to Tynecastle from the ripe old age of 4. Ive watched some great players but also watched the likes of Frank Liddel,Ray Dunlop and Hans Eskillson to name a few.The  difference is the players I mentioned were hopeless but didnt lack effort, where as now we have guys who can play but for some reason just cant be bothered to .We have to find out why.

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Kiwidoug said:

For anyone who hasn't read This is my Story, read it.  For anyone who has read it, read it again.  That's what I'm doing now.

 

We must continue our pride in FoH and keep it going.  

 

 

It's a very good read, but what it highlights is that there was a number of people highly involved in forming FOH long before Ann Budge got involved. She rightly gets credit for what she has achieved of the pitch, but so should many others and as has not been the one woman show many depict. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.




×
×
  • Create New...