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Did Budge roll the dice too soon ?


pointon

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jack D and coke
30 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

I didn’t say that hahahahaha, but he probably would’ve. He’s just a bog standard manager like McInnes/Neilson/Lennon/Wright/Robinson/Levein/Clarke etc who all play the same turgid football. One of the reasons Scottish football has stagnated for decades. 

And one of the reasons I really hoped we’d kept Stendel on. A chance at something different. 
We’ve won 8 out of 9 but we’ve been howling in most of the games. 
I don’t really care in all honesty atm I just want out of this division by whatever means necessary.

But back in the top flight watching this crap again? I hope not. 

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Pasquale for King
22 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

And one of the reasons I really hoped we’d kept Stendel on. A chance at something different. 
We’ve won 8 out of 9 but we’ve been howling in most of the games. 
I don’t really care in all honesty atm I just want out of this division by whatever means necessary.

But back in the top flight watching this crap again? I hope not. 

Unfortunately that’s what we’ve got to look forward to, he will then get a better offer and do what he did to us and Utd. He knows managers have a 2-3 year shelf life and will be away around Xmas 2022 I reckon. 

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43 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

I doubt they intentionally wasted money. The counterpoint is that if Ann hadn’t rocked up then FoH would have had to find several million pounds upfront from somewhere else. 

 

Ann saved us, i get it. So did Vladimir Romanov, at least he gave us some decent football. 

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1 hour ago, Pasquale for King said:

To be precise 4 points off top with a game in hand. It’s the poor performances that have eventually lead to the defeat that’s the real worry. 

I'm still confident we will go on to win the league by a fair few points.

 

We will lose more games this season as this team is no where near as balanced as the last team we had in the championship.

 

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17 minutes ago, Madjambo21 said:

I'm still confident we will go on to win the league by a fair few points.

 

We will lose more games this season as this team is no where near as balanced as the last team we had in the championship.

 

 

Agree with this, no chance we were walking away with this like last time, squad has not really improved from last year 

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4 hours ago, Greedy Jambo said:

 

You sound a bit wacky, but i'll humour you,

Robbie Neilson just got taught a lesson by his old assistant manager that is in charge of a championship team with the financial clout of a tramp. 

Omg 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 Lord have mercy. 

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Pasquale for King
8 hours ago, Madjambo21 said:

I'm still confident we will go on to win the league by a fair few points.

 

We will lose more games this season as this team is no where near as balanced as the last team we had in the championship.

 

Fingers crossed. 

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There's one man to blame for this utter shambles and that's Craig Levein. DoF and manager and failed at both. Ann Budge trusted him with the family silver and he flogged it down cash converters.

 

Daly, McPhee, Stendal and Neilson trying to get Leveins duds to play, none of Leveins signings give/gave a shinny shite about Heart of Midlothian with the exception of Walker who is to slow now and Peter Harring who is trying to get fit.

 

The fans debating managers is pointless until one gets a chance to completely clear out anyone who was involved in the Levein disaster and I include Naismith in that, for me he has far too much influence within Hearts and it's time he stepped up on the pitch. 

 

Ginley, Kingsley and Gordon signed by Neilson look better than anything Levein gave us (lafferty the exception). Wighton didn't kick a ball under Levein and even Aidy White has at least contributed, they're still not good enough however.

 

The worst bit is a man who knows Heart of Midlothian so well actually ripped the Heart and Soul out the place. Be a long long time until he's forgiven.

 

 

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Francis Albert

Good to see some realism emerging about our prospects. Unlike last time when we truly had a Premiership quality squad the jury is still out for me on whether we are much stronger than last season, and even without Hibs and Rangers as rivals we won't walk it like last time. Hope that message gets through to the players. 

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Dusk_Till_Dawn
31 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Good to see some realism emerging about our prospects. Unlike last time when we truly had a Premiership quality squad the jury is still out for me on whether we are much stronger than last season, and even without Hibs and Rangers as rivals we won't walk it like last time. Hope that message gets through to the players. 


We will walk it. The division is so poor.

 

Neilson was such a bland appointment though. And it annoys me that after backing Levein for so long and to the hilt, Budge seemed to give up on Stendel almost immediately.

 

The debate about whether Stendel was right misses the point I think. The club’s not right. And it won’t be right until we get a change at the top.

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Francis Albert

Hope you are right but so far the division has not looked so poor nor us so good to be confident of walking it. 

 

Agreed on Stendhal. Levein got 6 years, Stendhal about four months (with the eminence grise still lurking) Looking at his league results after the January break (with more of his back room in place) he won two, lost three and drew the rest. Comfortable mid table form. He didn't get a "new manager boost" but I suspect that was down to the squad rather than Stendhal - see Berra's failure as captain to welcome him when he was introduced to the squad.

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3 minutes ago, Inch Hearts said:

It an absolute guarantee Daniel will be a major success in his next job and the apologists will say he was at us at the wrong time. 

I hope he is.

He walked into a shit show and it didn't work out for him.

 

Still think his tactics were a bit too attacking for a team that clearly couldn't play that way.

 

Also kept Pereria in too long and Langer and other lad (winger) looked rubbish. 

If Sibbick had been fit could have been different though.

 

 

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13 minutes ago, Inch Hearts said:

It an absolute guarantee Daniel will be a major success in his next job and the apologists will say he was at us at the wrong time. 

How long will we need to wait until he gets a job? I don’t think his stock is that high in Germany as a head coach.  

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7 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Hope you are right but so far the division has not looked so poor nor us so good to be confident of walking it. 

 

Agreed on Stendhal. Levein got 6 years, Stendhal about four months (with the eminence grise still lurking) Looking at his league results after the January break (with more of his back room in place) he won two, lost three and drew the rest. Comfortable mid table form. He didn't get a "new manager boost" but I suspect that was down to the squad rather than Stendhal - see Berra's failure as captain to welcome him when he was introduced to the squad.

 

It was noticeable at the time Michael Smith a fine player for us stood up and showed respect to a new manager, Berra the captain should be leading the way, but nothing, then went sobbing to the papers when he was binned.

 

Berra, a very good player in his day is just another 'name' who has a cosy number at Hearts. Haliday the latest in the names when written down makes us look a good team, stick them on the grass and there's a shell of the player there once was. Naismith, Berra, Walker, Halliday, Whelan, Damour we've seen them and more fail to deliver on reputation. The only name to actually deliver was Kyle Lafferty. 

 

Stendal needed his own players before judgement was made on his ability likewise Neilson needs his own team.

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19 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

How long will we need to wait until he gets a job? I don’t think his stock is that high in Germany as a head coach.  


He’s not going to walk into a shit show again.  Not a chance. 

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27 minutes ago, Madjambo21 said:

I hope he is.

He walked into a shit show and it didn't work out for him.

 

Still think his tactics were a bit too attacking for a team that clearly couldn't play that way.

 

Also kept Pereria in too long and Langer and other lad (winger) looked rubbish. 

If Sibbick had been fit could have been different though.

 

 


He will.  And some will still make excuses. 

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5 minutes ago, Inch Hearts said:


He’s not going to walk into a shit show again.  Not a chance. 

He might not walk into anything much. 

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Stendel needed money thrown at a squad to shape it into what he needed/wanted. As soon as became apparent that we would be strapped for cash this season, keeping Stendel was pointless and so we got a safe pair of hands with a history of getting teams out of this league. We couldn't afford to buy our way out of this league and the quality of the signings shows that IMO.

 

RN might well get us promoted, in fact I'm sure he will because although we're not brilliant, we've got enough about us to skate this league. There will be the odd mishap along the way but I also have this nagging feeling that we'll win the cup (2020 version) and RN will be safe as houses for next season. (unless he doesn't get us up obviously)I'm not enthralled by him as a Premier League manager but he's probably done enough overall in two stints to carry on for a good while yet beyond the summer.

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13 hours ago, Greedy Jambo said:

 

Ann saved us, i get it. So did Vladimir Romanov, at least he gave us some decent football. 

When I think of the first few weeks of that first Vlad season, the atmosphere and the panache with which we beat Rangers at Tynecastle (for example), it makes me greet to see what we're watching now. Scrambling about in a no mark league, scraping past no mark teams and losing with no heart at Dunfermline. I know we can't have those days back and I know the financials of it nearly killed us, but surely to feck we are better than this sometime soon.

 

Just give as a JJ team like 98. Players who knew what the word 'professional' meant. Players who left everything on the pitch. None of them were world beaters in an individual sense but they knew what it meant to wear that jersey and we had a team that was miles better than the sum of its parts. Some of our current players really ought to be ashamed of what they're presiding over.

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On 22/11/2020 at 14:11, Hashimoto said:



The real conundrum for me is Pereira!..Here's a guy who ranks amongst the worst EVER, yet lands on his feet at a good club down South. Jeezo his agent could sell sand to the Arab's!



 

 

I watched the game at the weekend and three of the goals he lost took me back to last season! I felt a chill down my back.

 

 

 

On 22/11/2020 at 14:13, Newton51 said:

I think stendel misjudged the standard of Scottish football considering the players he signed who have already exited the club. Not convinced he was behind Boyce signing 

 

Don't know about misjudged but i do remember him saying he was shocked at the standard of fitness for a professional team (along those lines anyway) and it was something that stuck with me. I would go to games at Tynie and a lot of times the opposition were sharper and quicker to 50-50s and some were blowin out their arse late in games.  I think Boyce was a good signing for his style of play, not so sure under the Levein-type stuff Neilson seems to want to adopt again. He's coming back far too deep to get involved and not hanging about the penalty area as he was under Stendel. Sibbick looked a player and it's a shame he's no longer here. On loan abroad somewhere but someone we should be tracking. You're right about Avdijaj and Langer though. A waste of two wages when two central defenders, at least one with a bit of pace, was needed. That and continually playing Pereira was Stendel's downfall. Whether there was some club agreement about Pereira or not i wouldn't know but it seems a bit suspect to me and maybe outwith his control. He was improving the younger players like Moore and Henderson, Clare got on board with Stendel's style as did Washington and even Bozanic. He needed a lot more time. 

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queensferryjambo
On 21/11/2020 at 15:07, pointon said:

Squad isn’t good enough including the majority of signings made over the summer

 

I am quite sure the quality of signings will have been dictated by club finances and the players we couldn't shift out the door.

 

No matter how we dress it up getting stiffed by the SPFL and Covid will have had a massive say in who we brought in.

 

Lets face it if we were in the top flight we would attract better players and our budget would be better.

 

I realise our players and full squad will be getting better cash than other Championship clubs but unfortunately that would be the only way they would sign for us.

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Dusk_Till_Dawn
6 minutes ago, jambonian said:

 

I watched the game at the weekend and three of the goals he lost took me back to last season! I felt a chill down my back.

 

 

 

 

Don't know about misjudged but i do remember him saying he was shocked at the standard of fitness for a professional team (along those lines anyway) and it was something that stuck with me. I would go to games at Tynie and a lot of times the opposition were sharper and quicker to 50-50s and some were blowin out their arse late in games.  I think Boyce was a good signing for his style of play, not so sure under the Levein-type stuff Neilson seems to want to adopt again. He's coming back far too deep to get involved and not hanging about the penalty area as he was under Stendel. Sibbick looked a player and it's a shame he's no longer here. On loan abroad somewhere but someone we should be tracking. You're right about Avdijaj and Langer though. A waste of two wages when two central defenders, at least one with a bit of pace, was needed. That and continually playing Pereira was Stendel's downfall. Whether there was some club agreement about Pereira or not i wouldn't know but it seems a bit suspect to me and maybe outwith his control. He was improving the younger players like Moore and Henderson, Clare got on board with Stendel's style as did Washington and even Bozanic. He needed a lot more time. 


I’ve got very little to do with the football industry but I know someone who’s spoken to Stendel and swears blind that Hearts were obligated to play him under the contract with Man Utd

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Dusk_Till_Dawn
6 minutes ago, jambonian said:

 

I watched the game at the weekend and three of the goals he lost took me back to last season! I felt a chill down my back.

 

 

 

 

Don't know about misjudged but i do remember him saying he was shocked at the standard of fitness for a professional team (along those lines anyway) and it was something that stuck with me. I would go to games at Tynie and a lot of times the opposition were sharper and quicker to 50-50s and some were blowin out their arse late in games.  I think Boyce was a good signing for his style of play, not so sure under the Levein-type stuff Neilson seems to want to adopt again. He's coming back far too deep to get involved and not hanging about the penalty area as he was under Stendel. Sibbick looked a player and it's a shame he's no longer here. On loan abroad somewhere but someone we should be tracking. You're right about Avdijaj and Langer though. A waste of two wages when two central defenders, at least one with a bit of pace, was needed. That and continually playing Pereira was Stendel's downfall. Whether there was some club agreement about Pereira or not i wouldn't know but it seems a bit suspect to me and maybe outwith his control. He was improving the younger players like Moore and Henderson, Clare got on board with Stendel's style as did Washington and even Bozanic. He needed a lot more time. 


I’ve got very little to do with the football industry but I know someone who’s spoken to Stendel and swears blind that Hearts were obligated to play him under the contract with Man Utd

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16 hours ago, smiler said:

He’s telling you that you’re scrabbled out of your nuts, I thought it was fairly straightforward.

It’s perhaps straightforward to you, Smiley.

 

I had (and still don’t) have a clue what ‘scrabbled oot yer nuts’ means.

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4 hours ago, Inch Hearts said:


He’s not going to walk into a shit show again.  Not a chance. 

So hes loaded and not fussy about a job, would imagine he will take some offers.

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5 minutes ago, Inch Hearts said:


Nah. 

Your a big fan then, ok, i lost whatever love i had for him when he kept playing that dud

from man u, beyond all reason that was.

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6 minutes ago, Harry Potter said:

Your a big fan then, ok, i lost whatever love i had for him when he kept playing that dud

from man u, beyond all reason that was.


True mate but Huddersfield are making the same mistake.  I’m positive he was told to play the ***** to save money.   Or maybe just rated the championship better I suppose.  Done anyway.  

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34 minutes ago, Inch Hearts said:


True mate but Huddersfield are making the same mistake.  I’m positive he was told to play the ***** to save money.   Or maybe just rated the championship better I suppose.  Done anyway.  

👍

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6 hours ago, Inch Hearts said:

It an absolute guarantee Daniel will be a major success in his next job and the apologists will say he was at us at the wrong time. 

Dear oh dear, looking in your crystal ball for that one, time to move on, who actually cares, Paulo Sergio's team are bottom of Portuguese top league it matters not a jot.

I doubt Daniel will get a bigger job than Hearts, a Harry Potter necklace and all.

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6 minutes ago, Lfhearts said:

Dear oh dear, looking in your crystal ball for that one, time to move on, who actually cares, Paulo Sergio's team are bottom of Portuguese top league it matters not a jot.

I doubt Daniel will get a bigger job than Hearts, a Harry Potter necklace and all.

Necklace ha ha, very good.😂

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Worth remembering that Stendel had eight games less than expected to get the job done, eight games against the teams around us. We’ll never know what would have happened, but he can hardly be classed as a failure when the rug was pulled from under him.

 

The passage of time must also fade some memories. A wee visit back to the time he was appointed will refresh and might be a reminder for some as to the utter shit show he walked into. He was effectively trying to fight a forest fire with a garden hose.

 

I genuinely believe that if we had kept Stendel we would have been better off in the long run. He showed at Barnsley he could get a team out of a lower league and I have no doubt he’d have done the same at Hearts, especially given that the circumstances at the club have changed significantly.

 

All if’s, but’s and maybes, but the shite I am watching under Neilson will always have me thinking.

 

 

 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Ethan Hunt said:

Worth remembering that Stendel had eight games less than expected to get the job done, eight games against the teams around us. We’ll never know what would have happened, but he can hardly be classed as a failure when the rug was pulled from under him.

 

The passage of time must also fade some memories. A wee visit back to the time he was appointed will refresh and might be a reminder for some as to the utter shit show he walked into. He was effectively trying to fight a forest fire with a garden hose.

 

I genuinely believe that if we had kept Stendel we would have been better off in the long run. He showed at Barnsley he could get a team out of a lower league and I have no doubt he’d have done the same at Hearts, especially given that the circumstances at the club have changed significantly.

 

All if’s, but’s and maybes, but the shite I am watching under Neilson will always have me thinking.

 

 

 

 

 

Neilson has had less games than Stendel so far. 

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4 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

Neilson has had less games than Stendel so far. 

And your point is? Surely you’re not comparing the situation that  Stendel found himself in with the one Neilson found? Neilson has a far more stable and settled club, there’s been a drastic overhaul of the playing squad, he’s playing against inferior opposition, there’s little media scrutiny and criticism toward the club, totally different set of circumstances.

 

The main difference for me is that I am now watching re-runs of the dire Neilson football from a few years ago. I thought we had moved past that.

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22 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

Good to see some realism emerging about our prospects. Unlike last time when we truly had a Premiership quality squad the jury is still out for me on whether we are much stronger than last season, and even without Hibs and Rangers as rivals we won't walk it like last time. Hope that message gets through to the players. 

I would argue that most of this squad is better than what we had last time.  What there isn't this time is any sense of optimism and there's much more complacency about winning the league.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Ethan Hunt said:

And your point is? Surely you’re not comparing the situation that  Stendel found himself in with the one Neilson found? Neilson has a far more stable and settled club, there’s been a drastic overhaul of the playing squad, he’s playing against inferior opposition, there’s little media scrutiny and criticism toward the club, totally different set of circumstances.

 

The main difference for me is that I am now watching re-runs of the dire Neilson football from a few years ago. I thought we had moved past that.

My point is that it’s too early to judge imo. 

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31 minutes ago, Ethan Hunt said:

Worth remembering that Stendel had eight games less than expected to get the job done, eight games against the teams around us. We’ll never know what would have happened, but he can hardly be classed as a failure when the rug was pulled from under him.

 

The passage of time must also fade some memories. A wee visit back to the time he was appointed will refresh and might be a reminder for some as to the utter shit show he walked into. He was effectively trying to fight a forest fire with a garden hose.

 

I genuinely believe that if we had kept Stendel we would have been better off in the long run. He showed at Barnsley he could get a team out of a lower league and I have no doubt he’d have done the same at Hearts, especially given that the circumstances at the club have changed significantly.

 

All if’s, but’s and maybes, but the shite I am watching under Neilson will always have me thinking.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Agree with this. Stendel had adapted his kamikaze approach to defending towards the end. So it wasn't all out attack. 

 

The damage was already done. Ultimately this falls on Levein, the 3rd biggest club in Scotland should never be in or around relegation. This shouldn't even need to be said. He hired his mates rather than talented coaches. I don't doubt for a second that Neilson has already sorted most of the problems out and once Neilson has finished his job here, I'd really like us to look at bringing Daniel back. Obviously time moves on, but he was a genuinely exciting appointment. If we actually had a competent goalkeeper then I think he'd have managed it. 

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11 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

Agree with this. Stendel had adapted his kamikaze approach to defending towards the end. So it wasn't all out attack. 

 

The damage was already done. Ultimately this falls on Levein, the 3rd biggest club in Scotland should never be in or around relegation. This shouldn't even need to be said. He hired his mates rather than talented coaches. I don't doubt for a second that Neilson has already sorted most of the problems out and once Neilson has finished his job here, I'd really like us to look at bringing Daniel back. Obviously time moves on, but he was a genuinely exciting appointment. If we actually had a competent goalkeeper then I think he'd have managed it. 

Daniel hired his mates as well. It’s what most managers do.
 

Whether he would have turned it around we’ll never know. 

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18 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

My point is that it’s too early to judge imo. 

I’ll judge him on the continuation of the dire football he served up under his last tenure. A leopard can’t change it’s spots, and it would appear Neilson can’t change his playing style.

 

As I said, I had hoped we were past that. If Neilson brings something fresh then fine,  but I’m certainly not seeing it at the moment.

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7 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

Daniel hired his mates as well. It’s what most managers do.
 

Whether he would have turned it around we’ll never know. 

Daniel was allowed to hire two of his ‘mates’. Levein packed the place out with his ‘mates’.

 

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Just now, davemclaren said:

Daniel hired his mates as well. It’s what most managers do.
 

Whether he would have turned it around we’ll never know. 

 

I was saying Levein was prioritising jobs for the boys over competence. Tonge was maybe on the weaker side in terms of experience but he had been a key part of DS's staff at a successful Barnsley side that had managed promotion. Sievers had nearly 20 years experience coaching a top Bundesliga side. They were absolutely there on merit. 

 

I do agree that managers do, do that. But the competence of the people they choose to work with is usually a major factor. Levein was surrounding himself with inexperienced yes men who clearly couldn't coach for toffee. He could have went for guys like Houston who have bags of experience but wanted it all his way. 

 

You're right though, whether DS would have or wouldn't have, we'll never know. Personally, I feel he was becoming more street wise to Scottish football as time went on and with RC dropping like a stone I reckon it would have been tight but we'd have caught them. 

 

Very happy to have Robbie back though. I think from the first time round he had us playing decent football till we got promoted. He's got a lot more experience under his belt now and is very much his own man in a managerial sense. Quite excited to see how he competes in the top flight. 

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On 21/11/2020 at 17:51, Coco said:

Stendel could not see how bad Pereira and MacLean were so a deserved departure

Naisy is becoming the new Maclean. 

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The Old Tolbooth

Watching that documentary last night, it was very evident that Stendel was hurting due to the fact we hired Robbie as manager without even telling him, and that's a pretty crass thing for the club to do, it's easy to say that they tried to contact Daniel before the Robbie news broke to try and save face, but the club at the time told us that Daniel had another offer which both parties accepted, and this turned out to be a lie, I really felt for the guy. 

 

Robbie is a safe pair of hands, and no doubt he'll get us up again and he'll steady us in the top flight too, but we'll never do anything under Robbie, I genuinely feel that given a full summer transfer window and the backing that Robbie has had, that Stendel would have done something with us given time, it just seems to be more of the same old same old, but don't take that as I'm unhappy at Robbie because I genuinely like the guy and wish him all the success under the sun, I just wonder what could have been.... 

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On 23/11/2020 at 00:50, Greedy Jambo said:

 

Ann saved us, i get it. So did Vladimir Romanov, at least he gave us some decent football. 

 

That's an historical thing with most chairmen. Most clubs in fact. Mercer saved us from the previous owners, Robinson saved us from Mercer, Romanov saved us from Robinson, Ann (indirectly) saved us from Romanov. A lot of people will now be asking who'd going to save us from Budge now? And on and on it goes.

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25 minutes ago, jambonian said:

 

That's an historical thing with most chairmen. Most clubs in fact. Mercer saved us from the previous owners, Robinson saved us from Mercer, Romanov saved us from Robinson, Ann (indirectly) saved us from Romanov. A lot of people will now be asking who'd going to save us from Budge now? And on and on it goes.

Very few owners leave clubs when things are going well. 

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Just now, davemclaren said:

Very few owners leave clubs when things are going well. 

 

Very true. From applauding the arrivals of Mercer, Robinson, Romanov and Budge to the protests at the end of each reign. The situation with Budge is slightly different so it could be different. We'll see how that pans out in the fullness of time. 

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The Treasurer
3 hours ago, Ethan Hunt said:

I’ll judge him on the continuation of the dire football he served up under his last tenure. A leopard can’t change it’s spots, and it would appear Neilson can’t change his playing style.

 

As I said, I had hoped we were past that. If Neilson brings something fresh then fine,  but I’m certainly not seeing it at the moment.

Where are people getting this idea that Neilson had us playing boring football last time round ?

We were scoring for fun in the championship and when he left we were 2nd in the league having just beaten sevco.

I can only really remember one game where he was over cautious and unfortunately it's the one game that most of the haters use as a measure of his management style

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Scottie Wanshot.

Robbie will do a lot better than Sten. he hadn't a clue. trying to get a team at the bottom of the league to play a completely different type of football , that the players couldn't play. and to keep playing  the worst goalkeeper in Europe. ( Pereira.

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