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Locky

Evolution of the Edinburgh derby

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Locky

A question for the older heads amongst us. When did the relationship between Hearts and Hibs start to become so tense, and what triggered it? I've always heard how it was normal for people growing up in the 50's to go and watch either Edinburgh side at home even if they supported the other. I also get the impression that while there was still 'rivalry' in the fixture in past times, it was a lot more civilised and friendly. Am I wrong?

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Selkirkhmfc1874

Got worse when Wallace Mercer tried to buy them

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black stump
2 minutes ago, Selkirkhmfc1874 said:

Got worse when Wallace Mercer tried to buy them

Thats when it got really nasty i think.

 

before then it was just a healthy rivalry

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Heartsofgold
Just now, Selkirkhmfc1874 said:

Got worse when Wallace Mercer tried to buy them

 

This was the start of it but they started to get uppity when the beat us 0-7 at Tynecastle.  They forget on the return fixture we humped them 4-1 to break a considerable Hibs not losing streak.  They actually went 23 games with only 1 loss during the late 60s to mid/late 70s.  We were ****ing shocking at that time.

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Smoked-Glass

We are lucky to have rivals like hibs.  More joy than not is brought by them. 

 

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Allowayjambo1874

I would think that the dynamic in the 50’s would’ve been very different. Not long out of a terrible war, travel to away games relatively difficult (most people worked on a Saturday morning and also expensive) and both clubs successful playing very attractive football and winning trophies. 
 

Think there was a dip I attendances in the 60’s.

 

The rise in football hooliganism  in the 70’s may have started it off but I recall it really kicking off in the early 80’s. Tom Hart trophy was proper naughty afterwards ( was that when Jenners windows got tanned?)

 

Just seemed to be antagonist ever since, Mercer takeover heightened it all and the pish with letters and emails to Lithuanians hasn’t exactly helped. 

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MoncurMacdonaldMercer

got worse when Doddie turned up and we started winning all the time often in the most annoying fashion like never being in the game and scoring a last minute winner etc

 

wasn’t all friendly respect the rivalry nonsense before that either - not sure about 20-30 years before that tho others no doubt will report back on that era

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Cade

Hibs are not rivals.

They're a minor annoyance once every so often.

They've given us so much joy over the years.

And so many points.

And one Big Cup.

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Thought Police

Most one sided rivalry in world football

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hmfc_liam06
1 minute ago, Thought Police said:

Most one sided rivalry in world football

 

Wrong.

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John Findlay
1 hour ago, Locky said:

A question for the older heads amongst us. When did the relationship between Hearts and Hibs start to become so tense, and what triggered it? I've always heard how it was normal for people growing up in the 50's to go and watch either Edinburgh side at home even if they supported the other. I also get the impression that while there was still 'rivalry' in the fixture in past times, it was a lot more civilised and friendly. Am I wrong?

Segregation in the late 70s. Not being allowed to walk from behind one goal to the other. Since the advent of the internet it has got alot worse and just downright nasty/vile.

 

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Mister T

When we got new glasses and saw them as the bitter skidmarks that they have always been. 

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Homme

Of course they are rivals. 

 

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Thought Police
18 minutes ago, hmfc_liam06 said:

 

Wrong.

Cracking insight.

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superjack

I'm sure I remember reading somewhere that after the 1896 cup final, the hearts team had to run off the pitch with the trophy due to trouble from the hibs fans. Don't remember where unread it though.

They must have always been bitter.

To call them rivals though is like saying a lions rival is an antelope. 

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hmfc_liam06
3 minutes ago, Thought Police said:

Cracking insight.

 

Better than yours anyway :lol:

 

It's not even the most one sided rivalry in the UK let alone the world.

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Thought Police
6 minutes ago, hmfc_liam06 said:

 

Better than yours anyway :lol:

 

It's not even the most one sided rivalry in the UK let alone the world.

I’m sure you knew it was tongue in cheek. But I thought since you were so strong in your statement you might offer the right answer since it bothers you so much.

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TheBigO

 Lots of good points here about rise of hooiganism, Mercer takeover, even 7-0 and 23iar.  But for me things have changed just in the last few years and I think social media and sites like this very one are a big part of that.  Social media enhances poralisation and i think that filters through to real life.

 

Kind of away from that though, 2012, the hurt that caused and then us coming our of admin so strongly (like they know they would never be able to), has risen their hate level of Hearts to new heights.  It all happened in quick succession - got their erse to play wi for the world to see, then had a chance they relished so longingly to see us gone, and actually we just brushed them aside and left them in the 2nd tier.  All the years under VR of calling us cheats etc (while they built up debt paying for players they couldn't afford and abused the loan system).  Basically lots of heads exploded.  And if someone's gonna hate you, you hate them right back, right!?

 

You know, my dad's got mates he's know since he was a kid, so going back 60 odd years, and I've known them all my days and there's always been genuinely fun rivalry and banter about the football.  Quite a few of these guys, just in the last maybe 5 years have become so bitter and twisted and can;'t see beyond that to remember that friendship of 60 years should trump that.  Really, things have just changed in that short a timescale.  I grew up knowing lots of Hibbys and still do, but by and large, the ones who were alright now basically aren't and at best you just need to avoid football with them.

 

Mental!  I really do think it's all from their side though.  We kinda reciprocate.  They wanted us dead, we're hardly going to be jovial about it.

 

I wonder if other rivalries have seen similar division in recent years?

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DS98
42 minutes ago, Thought Police said:

I’m sure you knew it was tongue in cheek. But I thought since you were so strong in your statement you might offer the right answer since it bothers you so much.


I’m also interested in the answer to this. Need to be a proper derby though. None of your Rangers v Thistle or Chelsea v Fulham pish 

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TorinoJambo
58 minutes ago, superjack said:

I'm sure I remember reading somewhere that after the 1896 cup final, the hearts team had to run off the pitch with the trophy due to trouble from the hibs fans. Don't remember where unread it though.

They must have always been bitter.

To call them rivals though is like saying a lions rival is an antelope. 

Wasn't that final. It was a local cup final which went to several replays. We won the last and our player Nick Ross, who went on to play for Preston North End had to dress as a woman and escape in a hansom cab. He had apparently cemented a few of their players. It's in the Albert Mackie book. Hilarious. 

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Furious Styles

Is it really tense? I wouldn’t say so. It’s banter with most hibs fans I know. 

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Locky
13 minutes ago, Furious Styles said:

Is it really tense? I wouldn’t say so. It’s banter with most hibs fans I know. 

Mostly banter but the fixture itself is tense. Being from a country where the Old Firm gets all the attention, our derby is massively underrated and puts many in England to shame. I say it puts them to shame, because Sky would have you believe that Norwich vs Ipswich and the likes is massive. Every derby is massive to the teams involved I guess, but I'd say the tension and hatred between Hearts and Hibs is as tense as you'll find in the stadium on matchday.

 

We're a lot more civilised outwith the bunch in the west when it comes to off the park thankfully.

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Pasquale for King
2 hours ago, Locky said:

A question for the older heads amongst us. When did the relationship between Hearts and Hibs start to become so tense, and what triggered it? I've always heard how it was normal for people growing up in the 50's to go and watch either Edinburgh side at home even if they supported the other. I also get the impression that while there was still 'rivalry' in the fixture in past times, it was a lot more civilised and friendly. Am I wrong?

At uni we were told that in the 70s men had to do more family related stuff and this led to sons going to the games with friends etc and not having role models showing them how to act. The hooliganism and then segregation that followed, then the casual movement made the rivalry between teams grow. The uglies are the worst though, they still cause more trouble than any other group. Hibs and Aberdeen casuals were bad but that was a group, the away fans of the uglies seem in the main to be trouble makers who have been allowed to get away with murder over the years in and outside grounds.

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Jingle Bells

Full scale riots pre-segregation from the mid 1970s and not a lot of love lost before hand is what I remember from that decade.

Different world back then though.

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Locky
2 hours ago, Cade said:

Hibs are not rivals.

They're a minor annoyance once every so often.

They've given us so much joy over the years.

And so many points.

And one Big Cup.

I don't feel like I hate them quite as much as the arsecheeks in Glasgow, but make no bones about it, I ****ing hate them.

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Cade

Going into a Derby away from home, knowing that winning would relegate your most hated rivals.
Your rivals are languishing at the foot of the table having been docked 15 points for entering administration.

You start that match in 7th place in the league.

Losing that game 2-0.

Being so upset about that result that you only score a single point in the remaining 6 league fixtures, including another Derby defeat, this time at home.

You tumble down the table, ending the league season in 11th place and in the playoffs.

Skooshing the first leg 2-0 away. 

Somehow ending up tied 2-2 in the return leg at home to a 93rd minute equaliser.

Going all the way to penalties.

Losing on penalties.

Being relegated yourselves.

Having to watch your most hated rivals stomp the league you are now both in, setting a record points total and being promoted at the first attempt.

Taking three years to get promoted yourselves.

 

Scaffs.

 

:jjyay:

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jackal
3 hours ago, Selkirkhmfc1874 said:

Got worse when Wallace Mercer tried to Save them

 

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Allowayjambo1874
1 hour ago, superjack said:

I'm sure I remember reading somewhere that after the 1896 cup final, the hearts team had to run off the pitch with the trophy due to trouble from the hibs fans. Don't remember where unread it though.

They must have always been bitter.

To call them rivals though is like saying a lions rival is an antelope. 

I don’t think the factor of religion is taken into account often enough in the early years of Edinburgh football, there was definitely a sectarian divide at the start. 

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Last Laff
14 minutes ago, Locky said:

I don't feel like I hate them quite as much as the arsecheeks in Glasgow, but make no bones about it, I ****ing hate them.


I don’t like them.  Their fans are arseholes and social media highlights that now more than ever.  I do also go into full hate mode when it comes to derby day.  I would do anything for a win.  I think that’s the difference between the two clubs also. 

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Mr 3 Putt

Although we hate each other i think it's pretty tame off the park. Comparing to the only other big derby I've been to and that is Newcastle v Sunderland. The day I see riot police, horses and helicopters in huge numbers on match day, full hibs end needing a massive police escort to the ground while hundreds of bottles get launched at them and running battles in the street for several hours I'll change my mind.

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AndrewB

I would say it stepped up a lot in the 70s with the hooliganism - "Edinburgh's Disgrace" was a Scotsman headline I remember.

We were playing each other less often then with one side or the other dropping down a division.

 

Then, when we came back up under Doddie; Police horses on the pitch at ER; Mercer; total domination; 22 in a row; 4-4 / 4-0 / 5-1.

After all that, the rivalry was never going back in the box.

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BarneyBattles
48 minutes ago, Mr 3 Putt said:

Although we hate each other i think it's pretty tame off the park. Comparing to the only other big derby I've been to and that is Newcastle v Sunderland. The day I see riot police, horses and helicopters in huge numbers on match day, full hibs end needing a massive police escort to the ground while hundreds of bottles get launched at them and running battles in the street for several hours I'll change my mind.

 

A hibs supporting mate of mine said the same thing (and he was part of the hibs casual scene and liked a good scrap back in the day, probably still does deep down). He lived in Newcastle for a few years and said the Sunderland games were the most violent games he'd even been at. Folk knocking down walls so they had bricks to throw etc. 

 

Gorgie Road in the 80s could be quite rough but only ever really localised skirmishes with hibs and a bit of pavement dancing. The worst violence I've seen on gorgie/dalry road was after a midweek game v celtic, think it was the 1-0 (Berry) win in December 86. That really was running battles and I think it was a bit of revenge for the battle of parkhead game which I was also at and was a bit mental too in the car park afterwards.

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martoon

Had a look at the hibs.nut matchday thread for the last derby this morning. Not only very funny but it just screams inferiority:

 

Why are we so shite v. hertz? 

Why are they up for it and we're no'? 

Why are we such bottle merchants? 

Hibs couldnae beat 11 maroon traffic comes. 

 

Last one apart I'm paraphrasing but that is the gist. Knowing their shitty wee club is inferior has cranked up their hate levels toward Hearts. Personally think they should blame their own club and punters like Paul "3 derby wins" Kane and Gordon Hunter, who took 32 attempts to win one, but nah, blame and hate hertz is their goto setting. 

 

 

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Cade

Hibs fans hate Hearts more than they love Hibs.

 

It's tragic, really. :jj:

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Mr 3 Putt
Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, BarneyBattles said:

 

A hibs supporting mate of mine said the same thing (and he was part of the hibs casual scene and liked a good scrap back in the day, probably still does deep down). He lived in Newcastle for a few years and said the Sunderland games were the most violent games he'd even been at. Folk knocking down walls so they had bricks to throw etc. 

 

Gorgie Road in the 80s could be quite rough but only ever really localised skirmishes with hibs and a bit of pavement dancing. The worst violence I've seen on gorgie/dalry road was after a midweek game v celtic, think it was the 1-0 (Berry) win in December 86. That really was running battles and I think it was a bit of revenge for the battle of parkhead game which I was also at and was a bit mental too in the car park afterwards.

Was back in 2009 the game i went to. 1-1 draw its was mayhem before and after the game. 17 at the time i thought it was amazing having never seen anything like that before. Bottles, bricks, bins, food anything that they had at hand getting lobbed. A bit older and wiser now, i think, Id happily just sit in a pub and let them get on with it.

Edited by Mr 3 Putt

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Harry Potter
3 hours ago, hmfc_liam06 said:

 

Better than yours anyway :lol:

 

It's not even the most one sided rivalry in the UK let alone the world.

really, in terms of our wins it is pretty close.

8 minutes ago, Cade said:

Hibs fans hate Hearts more than they love Hibs.

 

It's tragic, really. :jj:

Its called the 5-1 nightmare ha ha.

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ToqueJambo

Mercer changed things, but the internet changed it even more. And Romanov came along at the same time as the internet really ramped up - the perfect storm. 

 

Pre-internet it was pretty hard to maintain seethe when you just had the morning and evening papers to read.

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Hectormasson
9 hours ago, Cade said:

Hibs are not rivals.

They're a minor annoyance once every so often.

They've given us so much joy over the years.

And so many points.

And one Big Cup.

And gubbed them.on the way to another cup .........🇱🇻🇶🇦🇱🇻🇶🇦👏

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NANOJAMBO

As someone who is old enough (just) to remember going to derby games where fans openly mixed without any trouble, my take on it is it starts in the 70s when Hearts fans were at their very worst in these games - and there was a lot of trouble at a lot of games in the 70s , not just Hibs games.

 

But while Hearts seem to have got better the pendulum seems to have swung the other way and Hibs took on the mantle with constant fighting, coin throwing , spitting on players - they really are a malevolent lots these days. 

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JJ93

My dad (in his 70s now) told me that when he was young and there was no crowd segregation (can you imagine that now), groups would even throw bricks at each other in the stands. Crazy.

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Cruyff
7 hours ago, Cade said:

Hibs fans hate Hearts more than they love Hibs.

 

It's tragic, really. :jj:

FACT. 

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Kiwidoug
12 hours ago, Selkirkhmfc1874 said:

Got worse when Wallace Mercer tried to buy them

Correct.  Unforgivable in my view.  They had every right to be seriously aggrieved.

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andyscott82

A brief history of the Edinburgh derby:

 

We allow hibs to exist. They’re shite. We pump them repeatedly. 
 

They manage to form their greatest ever side. We still pump them repeatedly. 
 

They eventually have a little spell on top, after over 80 years of the fixture being played. We get our shit together and start to pump them repeatedly again. 
 

The great Waldo arrives. The pumpings become merciless. 
 

We pump them with teams full of superstars, teams full of journeymen, and even teams full of kids. 
 

We know it. They know it. They know we know it. They are the shite on our shoes, the scum in the gutters, the filthy underbelly of our beautiful city. 
 

They can protest and bluster and claim otherwise all they want, but it’s nothing but false bravado that fades the second the going gets rough for them. 
 

They fear us, they envy us, they obsess over us. 
 

They will ALWAYS be in our shadow, WE are the big team, and this is OUR ****ing city!

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Kiwidoug
27 minutes ago, JJ93 said:

My dad (in his 70s now) told me that when he was young and there was no crowd segregation (can you imagine that now), groups would even throw bricks at each other in the stands. Crazy.

My wife went to a New Year derby with me at Easter road around 1970.  Ford gave us the lead, they won 3-1. It was absolutely freezing.

 

We were mainly surrounded by Hibs supporters and they were great.  They made a big fuss of here being a Kiwi but queried her judgment being stuck with me.  

 

My experiences were pretty much all like that pre-segregation and pre-Mercer.

 

I didn't like them of course.  Today, I can't stand them.

 

 

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dannymack

From what I've heard from older fans, the rivalry started to heat up in the mid 60's. 

I know of one or two that tolerated hibs and wouldn't even entertain going to Easter Rd when Hearts played away or the old codswallop of ' I want hibs to beat either of the old firm'.

 

Hooliganism, thats exactly where the rivalry increased ten fold, nastiness sets in, everyone is up for an Edinburgh Derby, youth culture at the time with the many gangs associating themselves with a particular scene.

 

Was told by an older Hibee who was part of the Easter Road Boot Boys in the early 70's that all the Leith Gangs would meet up on Leith Walk and head up to Tynecastle via Princes Street to meet up with the Gorgie Boot Boys, he said they always had great numbers but by the time they got to the West End/Haymarket their numbers would have dropped on one occasion Hearts were in Princes St Gardens and ambushed them. 

 

The period from the mid 60's to the early 80's was one to forget for Hearts v Hibs, Hearts fans had a bad reputation and the team had 2/3 victories in that time which added more fuel to the fire. Nearly 50 years ago so memories may we be fading but I'd definitely say the rivalry was boiling away from the mid 60's onwards. 

 

The modern day era couldn't lace the decade of the 70's boots.

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Kiwidoug

You're right about a lot of that.  I had forgotten.  A popular radio programme was broadcast in Princes St Gardens one day around 1967.  Hundreds of Hearts and hibs supporters fought a pitched battle amongst the large crowd.  Truly frightening.

 

Mature adults however mixed easily at the actual games.

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martoon
6 hours ago, Kiwidoug said:

My wife went to a New Year derby with me at Easter road around 1970.  Ford gave us the lead, they won 3-1. It was absolutely freezing.

 

We were mainly surrounded by Hibs supporters and they were great.  They made a big fuss of here being a Kiwi but queried her judgment being stuck with me.  

 

My experiences were pretty much all like that pre-segregation and pre-Mercer.

 

I didn't like them of course.  Today, I can't stand them.

 

 

 

1974, doug. 

 

I was only 5 and don't recall it but that was the Ne'er day derby when Donald scored early and Hibs lead 3-1 by half time. Hearts had won 4-1 at Tynecastle a few months before. 

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Debut 4

Think the rise of gang culture back in the 60s, 70s contributed to the rise in a more heated rivalry I think. 
 

My Dad used to go to derbies with my Hibs supporting Uncle back in the 50s but my Dad would never ever go to Easter Road unless Hearts were there.  He went to away matches. 
 

But guys who are now in their late 60s , maybe early 70s, would even talk of trouble between their own fans on the terraces because they came from different areas of Edinburgh.  
 

Latterly, I notice a real hatred from vermin who are now in their early to mid 50s and were young 20 somethings through the 17 and 22 in a row years.  A deep rooted resentment, tortured by the memory.  
 

Even up til the end of JJs first spell in the 90s, Hibs had only won around 10,11 derbies in 65 games.  

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Kiwidoug
1 hour ago, martoon said:

 

1974, doug. 

 

I was only 5 and don't recall it but that was the Ne'er day derby when Donald scored early and Hibs lead 3-1 by half time. Hearts had won 4-1 at Tynecastle a few months before. 

Just my luck.  I missed the 4-1 at Tynecastle.  On holiday I think.

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John Findlay
1 hour ago, martoon said:

 

1974, doug. 

 

I was only 5 and don't recall it but that was the Ne'er day derby when Donald scored early and Hibs lead 3-1 by half time. Hearts had won 4-1 at Tynecastle a few months before. 

I was coming up for 11(April 74) the new year derby 73, the September 73 game and the new year's day game 74. Went to all three on my own. Got there and back no bother each time.

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