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Dusk_Till_Dawn
4 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:


You want us to be more like Brentford? How do we go about this? Genuinely don’t know a lot about their set up. What parts would you like to see us emulate?


Their scouting is exceptional and uses data/statistics to pick up players for affordable fees who are often sold on for big money. They’re doing it again with Watkins/Benrahma. They accept that they’re going to lose players to bigger clubs but they use the money they have sensibly. It’s also helped them to fund a new stadium for next season. On top of that, they’ve had a consistent style of football for years and have always tried to recruit for it (coaches and players). They’re on the brink of the Premier League with a turnover of £15m, the same as ours, give or take, and crowds of around 12k. It’s a very good model.

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Neil Dongcaster

Aren’t Brentford essentially using the ‘moneyball’ style of recruitment?

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Rick Sanchez

Brentford have a combination of moneyball recruitment and signing youngsters from London clubs who have been released and giving them a chance.

 

I'm sure they don't have an academy as they see it as a waste of money when so many of the youngsters are good, just never gonna make it at a big London team.

 

Not a daft idea in that catchment area.

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Special Officer Doofy
18 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:


Their scouting is exceptional and uses data/statistics to pick up players for affordable fees who are often sold on for big money. They’re doing it again with Watkins/Benrahma. They accept that they’re going to lose players to bigger clubs but they use the money they have sensibly. It’s also helped them to fund a new stadium for next season. On top of that, they’ve had a consistent style of football for years and have always tried to recruit for it (coaches and players). They’re on the brink of the Premier League with a turnover of £15m, the same as ours, give or take, and crowds of around 12k. It’s a very good model.


Most of what you have put here, was the plan that Levein tried to implement. The consistency of style, and continuity part in particular. A couple of problems with that set up, is we can’t get as much in transfer fees as clubs down south, and we struggle to attract players like clubs down south. There’s also no guarantee when employing coaches and scouts, as they can look good on paper but just fail. I’d like us to implement t some kind of successful system like that too, sounds great. Easy to talk about it, less easy to make it work.

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Dusk_Till_Dawn
12 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:


Most of what you have put here, was the plan that Levein tried to implement. The consistency of style, and continuity part in particular. A couple of problems with that set up, is we can’t get as much in transfer fees as clubs down south, and we struggle to attract players like clubs down south. There’s also no guarantee when employing coaches and scouts, as they can look good on paper but just fail. I’d like us to implement t some kind of successful system like that too, sounds great. Easy to talk about it, less easy to make it work.


I think there are probably straightforward changes we can make to at least bridge the gap a little. I don’t actually know the structure of our scouting system but there is plenty about our recruitment which rings alarm bells. My assumption would be that it needs modernising. A good sporting director would help to do that. I know some people don’t think it’s a worthwhile position but personally I reckon it is. I had no problem with a DOF or the original appointment of Levein - it was just apparent that Levein kept making mistakes (although let’s not get back into that subject). We need two things to do well - a strong academy and clever use of money in the transfer market.

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Dusk_Till_Dawn
19 minutes ago, Rick Sanchez said:

Brentford have a combination of moneyball recruitment and signing youngsters from London clubs who have been released and giving them a chance.

 

I'm sure they don't have an academy as they see it as a waste of money when so many of the youngsters are good, just never gonna make it at a big London team.

 

Not a daft idea in that catchment area.


They did have an academy but it kept losing players to bigger London clubs. So they run a B team instead with players who’ve been released from Chelsea/Spurs/Arsenal etc plus other youngsters they find themselves.

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Jambof3tornado
24 minutes ago, Rick Sanchez said:

Brentford have a combination of moneyball recruitment and signing youngsters from London clubs who have been released and giving them a chance.

 

I'm sure they don't have an academy as they see it as a waste of money when so many of the youngsters are good, just never gonna make it at a big London team.

 

Not a daft idea in that catchment area.

Is the catchment area key though? Heck of a lot of clubs to be picking up players from. Up here we would be very limited finding freed youngsters better than our own.

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JamboAl
1 minute ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:


I think there are probably straightforward changes we can make to at least bridge the gap a little. I don’t actually know the structure of our scouting system but there is plenty about our recruitment which rings alarm bells. My assumption would be that it needs modernising. A good sporting director would help to do that. I know some people don’t think it’s a worthwhile position but personally I reckon it is. I had no problem with a DOF or the original appointment of Levein - it was just apparent that Levein kept making mistakes (although let’s not get back into that subject). We need two things to do well - a strong academy and clever use of money in the transfer market.

Who would you have as Sporting Director and how much do you think we can reasonably afford to pay him/her?

 

The highlighted (in red) parts just serve to demonstrate your negative beliefs.  You don't know but you're going to criticise anyway.

 

If I had time to be bothered with your ideological tripe, I would go through the country's teams and show you many where your set up doesn't work, or works less well.  That is not to say things have been anywhere near perfect here of late.

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DH1986

Neilson has frequently been quoted as saying he likes having a Sporting Director to work alongside for a variety of reasons.

 

It’s the way ahead for the medium to bigger sized clubs. 

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Dusk_Till_Dawn
1 hour ago, JamboAl said:

Who would you have as Sporting Director and how much do you think we can reasonably afford to pay him/her?

 

The highlighted (in red) parts just serve to demonstrate your negative beliefs.  You don't know but you're going to criticise anyway.

 

If I had time to be bothered with your ideological tripe, I would go through the country's teams and show you many where your set up doesn't work, or works less well.  That is not to say things have been anywhere near perfect here of late.


I’ve said before that David Moss might be a good shout. That’s the difference between you and me. I can actually answer questions like that.

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Dusk_Till_Dawn
33 minutes ago, DH1986 said:

Neilson has frequently been quoted as saying he likes having a Sporting Director to work alongside for a variety of reasons.

 

It’s the way ahead for the medium to bigger sized clubs. 


This

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JamboAl
58 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:


I’ve said before that David Moss might be a good shout. That’s the difference between you and me. I can actually answer questions like that.

You certainly can answer questions but that doesn not make your answers right or your beliefs more credible.

You did not say how much we would need to pay him.  Did he get emptied from Huddersfield after less than 6 months and why?

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JamboAl
1 hour ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:


This

No one's arguing about having a SD.   I actually agree as it takes the admin load and other issues away from the manager.  It's the division of duties that matters.  The manager should be THE man being assisted by the SD (even if they are equal in status in Ann's pecking order), otherwise the 1st team man is simply a Head Coach

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mitch41
On 07/07/2020 at 20:16, DH1986 said:


The Boot Room isn’t flawed at all.

 

It’s no different to the youth academy......we have a bunch of Goalies at various ages etc and we hope that they can all step up and make the grade eventually. If they don’t cut it then they’re released and we source from another club. Why can’t it be the same for coaches ?
 

Our best manager since administration was promoted from the academy.....the rest of the other appointments were failures. And if things had worked out differently Jack Ross could have been Neilsons replacement from within. He’s carved out a decent career so far.

 

Boot rooms and youth academies take years and years to come to any fruition.

 

 

 

 

Jack Ross left Hearts because he was ambitious he wasn’t going to hang around hoping to impress Levein and he gained experience at Alloa and St Mirren before he got a cracking job as Sunderland manager. Was it his fault Sunderland is cursed.

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mitch41
4 hours ago, JamboAl said:

No one's arguing about having a SD.   I actually agree as it takes the admin load and other issues away from the manager.  It's the division of duties that matters.  The manager should be THE man being assisted by the SD (even if they are equal in status in Ann's pecking order), otherwise the 1st team man is simply a Head Coach

Manager - Robbie Neilson. It hate the Head Coach name because in my opinion it belittles the job.
 

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Fluorescent Adolescent
8 minutes ago, mitch41 said:

Jack Ross left Hearts because he was ambitious he wasn’t going to hang around hoping to impress Levein and he gained experience at Alloa and St Mirren before he got a cracking job as Sunderland manager. Was it his fault Sunderland is cursed.


Him being ambitious wasn’t the only reason he left Hearts.

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mitch41
Just now, Fluorescent Adolescent said:


Him being ambitious wasn’t the only reason he left Hearts.

So I heard.

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Fluorescent Adolescent
4 minutes ago, mitch41 said:

So I heard.


A beastly episode.

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DH1986
28 minutes ago, mitch41 said:

Jack Ross left Hearts because he was ambitious he wasn’t going to hang around hoping to impress Levein and he gained experience at Alloa and St Mirren before he got a cracking job as Sunderland manager. Was it his fault Sunderland is cursed.

 

19 minutes ago, Fluorescent Adolescent said:


Him being ambitious wasn’t the only reason he left Hearts.

 

19 minutes ago, mitch41 said:

So I heard.


So......

 

You had previously heard Jack Ross being ambitious wasn’t the only reason he left Hearts yet you claim it was in the first post.

 

Bit odd.

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mitch41

What I’ve seen and heard about Jack Ross on the football side he did the right thing joining Alloa. I remember Fox going to Cowdenbeath and they couldn’t wait to get rid of him as he was useless.

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Gmcjambo
1 hour ago, Fluorescent Adolescent said:


Him being ambitious wasn’t the only reason he left Hearts.

I think he was ambitious on the front too.   Punched above his weight no?

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Jambo92

I actually spent some time with the Brentford chairman and talked out there methods, alot to admire about the way the club is run. The key points I picked up on though is that it's a model for a smaller fish in a big pond, I would look at Hamilton's, St Mirren's etc as good fit for this type of model in Scotland, its built to be slightly above average always and make considerable profit, with no sentiment.

 

We kind of saw it with Levein and our crop of youngsters in Paterson, Nicolson, Holt etc. Levein butchered that group of players and replaced with duds through desperation to try and improve in each position. Seen in recent years the consistentancy Aberdeen have had through keeping the squad together.

 

 

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jamboinglasgow

Surprised that there is nothing in the papers about the Sporting director search, especially the Evening News. Last week they were the ones who said that further interviews were happening last week and Bevington was no longer in for the role.

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JamboAl
10 hours ago, jamboinglasgow said:

Surprised that there is nothing in the papers about the Sporting director search, especially the Evening News. Last week they were the ones who said that further interviews were happening last week and Bevington was no longer in for the role.

It may be that we have decided on a SD but he is holding off to see which division we will play in

or

AB is holding off likewise before making the final choice.

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mitch41
1 hour ago, JamboAl said:

It may be that we have decided on a SD but he is holding off to see which division we will play in

or

AB is holding off likewise before making the final choice.

Or maybe Ann thinks out of everyone she’s interviewed there’s no one better that the one and only

 

 

Sir Galadah, Ann’s Prince Charming Craig Ladbrokes Levein.               :qqb007:

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JamboAl
2 hours ago, mitch41 said:

Or maybe Ann thinks out of everyone she’s interviewed there’s no one better that the one and only

 

 

Sir Galadah, Ann’s Prince Charming Craig Ladbrokes Levein.               :qqb007:

Could be the same story again, Mitch,

"The best candidate was in the building all the time"

Talk about combustion.....

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mitch41

I really don’t know who would be the best Sporting Director but I’d like to think that Robbie Neilson would be involved with the appointment after all Robbie and his staff will have to work hand in glove with the new SD.

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Phil D. Corners
4 hours ago, mitch41 said:

Or maybe Ann thinks out of everyone she’s interviewed there’s no one better that the one and only

 

 

Sir Galadah, Ann’s Prince Charming Craig Ladbrokes Levein.               :qqb007:


I was thinking that, due to demotion, Ann might hold her breath on the appointment for a year. 
 

It seems her and Robbie have a good connection. And..... maybe she has Levein on speed dial when she needs helps. 🤫

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Fort Vallance
10 minutes ago, mitch41 said:

I really don’t know who would be the best Sporting Director but I’d like to think that Robbie Neilson would be involved with the appointment after all Robbie and his staff will have to work hand in glove with the new SD.

I couldn't agree more. But I'm sure originally AB it was going to be the Sporting Director first for the same reason.

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mitch41
1 minute ago, Phil D. Corners said:


I was thinking that, due to demotion, Ann might hold her breath on the appointment for a year. 
 

It seems her and Robbie have a good connection. And..... maybe she has Levein on speed dial when she needs helps. 🤫

That would be frightening having Levein on speed dial wouldn’t it.           :wattie:

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mitch41
10 minutes ago, Fort Vallance said:

I couldn't agree more. But I'm sure originally AB it was going to be the Sporting Director first for the same reason.

True but Ann probably agrees with me, because she now follows me on kickback, that the SD’s position is to aid and support the manager in his needs. There is a lot of work in the football department that needs a SD to organise away from the first team. 

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OTT

The best option for us is the person who suits our goals most.

 

What is it we're trying to achieve?

 

My thinking is that we want to be the best club in Scotland for youth development. We want players to do similar to Hickey in knocking back staying at the OF because they know Hearts is the best place for their development and progress into becoming an actual professional footballer. This isn't an impossible task. Its absolutely true that both sides of the OF have more financial resources than us and spend more on their youth teams than we do on our first team, but ultimately you can only field 11 players. Reserve football as numerous pro's have pointed out isn't 'real' football. Actually getting a chance to play for the first team is a huge competitive advantage over the OF in terms of attracting ambitious youngsters. 

 

So we should look for a sporting director with a track record in youth development. To my mind that comes down to Brian McClair who headed up Manchester Utd's academy for nearly a decade or Donald Park who is credited with Hibs golden generation and has been appointed by the SFA to be in charge of coach development. Either would be an excellent choice in getting us closer to achieving that goal (if indeed that is what we're trying to do).

 

I don't buy into the Davie Weir chat at all, likewise Bevington is impressive but I don't think he meets our needs. We need someone who understands youth development and how to integrate that successfully with the first team. Both McClair and Park have a successful track record in doing that. 

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SomethingAboutObua

Let's think big and think successful, no GHM chat, someone that's going to have us as one of if not the best recruitment and youth department in Scotland. Right now we're the 3rd/4th wealthiest in recruitment but probably not even top 6 in return or value for money.

I don't know who we should get, but Davie Weird because he's done the loans at a couple of EPL clubs and used to play for us 20 years ago isn't screaming "must have" to me (I could be wrong of course and he might be the best candidate in more detailed matters!), similarly with Bevington, Boro fans' reactions were overwhelmingly gleeful when he left, can we not actually go after someone that's done the job and with a good track record ? The injured player-turned profit transfer model didn't work past the championship, the fans see this so please can the club remember this with our off field recruitment as well before going gung-ho for someone that's blamed for near bottom of the table Middlesbrough ?
 

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jambocub
34 minutes ago, OTT said:

The best option for us is the person who suits our goals most.

 

What is it we're trying to achieve?

 

My thinking is that we want to be the best club in Scotland for youth development. We want players to do similar to Hickey in knocking back staying at the OF because they know Hearts is the best place for their development and progress into becoming an actual professional footballer. This isn't an impossible task. Its absolutely true that both sides of the OF have more financial resources than us and spend more on their youth teams than we do on our first team, but ultimately you can only field 11 players. Reserve football as numerous pro's have pointed out isn't 'real' football. Actually getting a chance to play for the first team is a huge competitive advantage over the OF in terms of attracting ambitious youngsters. 

 

So we should look for a sporting director with a track record in youth development. To my mind that comes down to Brian McClair who headed up Manchester Utd's academy for nearly a decade or Donald Park who is credited with Hibs golden generation and has been appointed by the SFA to be in charge of coach development. Either would be an excellent choice in getting us closer to achieving that goal (if indeed that is what we're trying to do).

 

I don't buy into the Davie Weir chat at all, likewise Bevington is impressive but I don't think he meets our needs. We need someone who understands youth development and how to integrate that successfully with the first team. Both McClair and Park have a successful track record in doing that. 

It was John park who was at hibs academy

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Cruyff

Looks like this thread has a bit to go. Might still be talking about this in a year at this rate. 

 

The boy at Preston, Joe Savage would be my pick. Director of Communications & Analysis at Hamilton, Chief Scout at Norwich, Head of Recruitment & Incharge of Scouting Dept at Preston. The boys ready made. 

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JimmyCant
10 minutes ago, jambocub said:

It was John park who was at hibs academy

Donald Park was there for time. Don’t know what his role was but he was definetly working there

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OTT
1 hour ago, jambocub said:

It was John park who was at hibs academy

 

Both were at Hibs at the same time. Seems to cause confusion. 

 

https://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/hearts/interview-donald-park-run-ins-romanov-and-rod-petrie-taming-derek-riordan-and-garry-oconnor-and-hearts-first-relegation-2869425

 

For the avoidance of doubt:

 

“That started with Alex Miller and myself going down to Musselburgh to sign Kenny Miller. Later came Derek [Riordan], Garry [O’Connor], Kevin [Thomson], Steven [Whittaker] and Scotty [Brown]''.

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