DH1986 Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 Neilson has frequently been quoted as saying he likes having a Sporting Director to work alongside for a variety of reasons. It’s the way ahead for the medium to bigger sized clubs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusk_Till_Dawn Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 1 hour ago, JamboAl said: Who would you have as Sporting Director and how much do you think we can reasonably afford to pay him/her? The highlighted (in red) parts just serve to demonstrate your negative beliefs. You don't know but you're going to criticise anyway. If I had time to be bothered with your ideological tripe, I would go through the country's teams and show you many where your set up doesn't work, or works less well. That is not to say things have been anywhere near perfect here of late. I’ve said before that David Moss might be a good shout. That’s the difference between you and me. I can actually answer questions like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusk_Till_Dawn Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 33 minutes ago, DH1986 said: Neilson has frequently been quoted as saying he likes having a Sporting Director to work alongside for a variety of reasons. It’s the way ahead for the medium to bigger sized clubs. This Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboAl Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 58 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said: I’ve said before that David Moss might be a good shout. That’s the difference between you and me. I can actually answer questions like that. You certainly can answer questions but that doesn not make your answers right or your beliefs more credible. You did not say how much we would need to pay him. Did he get emptied from Huddersfield after less than 6 months and why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboAl Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 1 hour ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said: This No one's arguing about having a SD. I actually agree as it takes the admin load and other issues away from the manager. It's the division of duties that matters. The manager should be THE man being assisted by the SD (even if they are equal in status in Ann's pecking order), otherwise the 1st team man is simply a Head Coach Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitch41 Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 On 07/07/2020 at 20:16, DH1986 said: The Boot Room isn’t flawed at all. It’s no different to the youth academy......we have a bunch of Goalies at various ages etc and we hope that they can all step up and make the grade eventually. If they don’t cut it then they’re released and we source from another club. Why can’t it be the same for coaches ? Our best manager since administration was promoted from the academy.....the rest of the other appointments were failures. And if things had worked out differently Jack Ross could have been Neilsons replacement from within. He’s carved out a decent career so far. Boot rooms and youth academies take years and years to come to any fruition. Jack Ross left Hearts because he was ambitious he wasn’t going to hang around hoping to impress Levein and he gained experience at Alloa and St Mirren before he got a cracking job as Sunderland manager. Was it his fault Sunderland is cursed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitch41 Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 4 hours ago, JamboAl said: No one's arguing about having a SD. I actually agree as it takes the admin load and other issues away from the manager. It's the division of duties that matters. The manager should be THE man being assisted by the SD (even if they are equal in status in Ann's pecking order), otherwise the 1st team man is simply a Head Coach Manager - Robbie Neilson. It hate the Head Coach name because in my opinion it belittles the job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluorescent Adolescent Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 8 minutes ago, mitch41 said: Jack Ross left Hearts because he was ambitious he wasn’t going to hang around hoping to impress Levein and he gained experience at Alloa and St Mirren before he got a cracking job as Sunderland manager. Was it his fault Sunderland is cursed. Him being ambitious wasn’t the only reason he left Hearts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitch41 Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 Just now, Fluorescent Adolescent said: Him being ambitious wasn’t the only reason he left Hearts. So I heard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluorescent Adolescent Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 4 minutes ago, mitch41 said: So I heard. A beastly episode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DH1986 Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 28 minutes ago, mitch41 said: Jack Ross left Hearts because he was ambitious he wasn’t going to hang around hoping to impress Levein and he gained experience at Alloa and St Mirren before he got a cracking job as Sunderland manager. Was it his fault Sunderland is cursed. 19 minutes ago, Fluorescent Adolescent said: Him being ambitious wasn’t the only reason he left Hearts. 19 minutes ago, mitch41 said: So I heard. So...... You had previously heard Jack Ross being ambitious wasn’t the only reason he left Hearts yet you claim it was in the first post. Bit odd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitch41 Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 What I’ve seen and heard about Jack Ross on the football side he did the right thing joining Alloa. I remember Fox going to Cowdenbeath and they couldn’t wait to get rid of him as he was useless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gmcjambo Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 1 hour ago, Fluorescent Adolescent said: Him being ambitious wasn’t the only reason he left Hearts. I think he was ambitious on the front too. Punched above his weight no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo92 Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 I actually spent some time with the Brentford chairman and talked out there methods, alot to admire about the way the club is run. The key points I picked up on though is that it's a model for a smaller fish in a big pond, I would look at Hamilton's, St Mirren's etc as good fit for this type of model in Scotland, its built to be slightly above average always and make considerable profit, with no sentiment. We kind of saw it with Levein and our crop of youngsters in Paterson, Nicolson, Holt etc. Levein butchered that group of players and replaced with duds through desperation to try and improve in each position. Seen in recent years the consistentancy Aberdeen have had through keeping the squad together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamboinglasgow Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 Surprised that there is nothing in the papers about the Sporting director search, especially the Evening News. Last week they were the ones who said that further interviews were happening last week and Bevington was no longer in for the role. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboAl Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 10 hours ago, jamboinglasgow said: Surprised that there is nothing in the papers about the Sporting director search, especially the Evening News. Last week they were the ones who said that further interviews were happening last week and Bevington was no longer in for the role. It may be that we have decided on a SD but he is holding off to see which division we will play in or AB is holding off likewise before making the final choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitch41 Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 1 hour ago, JamboAl said: It may be that we have decided on a SD but he is holding off to see which division we will play in or AB is holding off likewise before making the final choice. Or maybe Ann thinks out of everyone she’s interviewed there’s no one better that the one and only Sir Galadah, Ann’s Prince Charming Craig Ladbrokes Levein. I Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboAl Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 2 hours ago, mitch41 said: Or maybe Ann thinks out of everyone she’s interviewed there’s no one better that the one and only Sir Galadah, Ann’s Prince Charming Craig Ladbrokes Levein. I Could be the same story again, Mitch, "The best candidate was in the building all the time" Talk about combustion..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitch41 Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 I really don’t know who would be the best Sporting Director but I’d like to think that Robbie Neilson would be involved with the appointment after all Robbie and his staff will have to work hand in glove with the new SD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil D. Corners Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 4 hours ago, mitch41 said: Or maybe Ann thinks out of everyone she’s interviewed there’s no one better that the one and only Sir Galadah, Ann’s Prince Charming Craig Ladbrokes Levein. I I was thinking that, due to demotion, Ann might hold her breath on the appointment for a year. It seems her and Robbie have a good connection. And..... maybe she has Levein on speed dial when she needs helps. 🤫 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fort Vallance Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 10 minutes ago, mitch41 said: I really don’t know who would be the best Sporting Director but I’d like to think that Robbie Neilson would be involved with the appointment after all Robbie and his staff will have to work hand in glove with the new SD. I couldn't agree more. But I'm sure originally AB it was going to be the Sporting Director first for the same reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitch41 Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 1 minute ago, Phil D. Corners said: I was thinking that, due to demotion, Ann might hold her breath on the appointment for a year. It seems her and Robbie have a good connection. And..... maybe she has Levein on speed dial when she needs helps. 🤫 That would be frightening having Levein on speed dial wouldn’t it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitch41 Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 10 minutes ago, Fort Vallance said: I couldn't agree more. But I'm sure originally AB it was going to be the Sporting Director first for the same reason. True but Ann probably agrees with me, because she now follows me on kickback, that the SD’s position is to aid and support the manager in his needs. There is a lot of work in the football department that needs a SD to organise away from the first team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OTT Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 The best option for us is the person who suits our goals most. What is it we're trying to achieve? My thinking is that we want to be the best club in Scotland for youth development. We want players to do similar to Hickey in knocking back staying at the OF because they know Hearts is the best place for their development and progress into becoming an actual professional footballer. This isn't an impossible task. Its absolutely true that both sides of the OF have more financial resources than us and spend more on their youth teams than we do on our first team, but ultimately you can only field 11 players. Reserve football as numerous pro's have pointed out isn't 'real' football. Actually getting a chance to play for the first team is a huge competitive advantage over the OF in terms of attracting ambitious youngsters. So we should look for a sporting director with a track record in youth development. To my mind that comes down to Brian McClair who headed up Manchester Utd's academy for nearly a decade or Donald Park who is credited with Hibs golden generation and has been appointed by the SFA to be in charge of coach development. Either would be an excellent choice in getting us closer to achieving that goal (if indeed that is what we're trying to do). I don't buy into the Davie Weir chat at all, likewise Bevington is impressive but I don't think he meets our needs. We need someone who understands youth development and how to integrate that successfully with the first team. Both McClair and Park have a successful track record in doing that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SomethingAboutObua Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 Let's think big and think successful, no GHM chat, someone that's going to have us as one of if not the best recruitment and youth department in Scotland. Right now we're the 3rd/4th wealthiest in recruitment but probably not even top 6 in return or value for money. I don't know who we should get, but Davie Weird because he's done the loans at a couple of EPL clubs and used to play for us 20 years ago isn't screaming "must have" to me (I could be wrong of course and he might be the best candidate in more detailed matters!), similarly with Bevington, Boro fans' reactions were overwhelmingly gleeful when he left, can we not actually go after someone that's done the job and with a good track record ? The injured player-turned profit transfer model didn't work past the championship, the fans see this so please can the club remember this with our off field recruitment as well before going gung-ho for someone that's blamed for near bottom of the table Middlesbrough ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambocub Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 34 minutes ago, OTT said: The best option for us is the person who suits our goals most. What is it we're trying to achieve? My thinking is that we want to be the best club in Scotland for youth development. We want players to do similar to Hickey in knocking back staying at the OF because they know Hearts is the best place for their development and progress into becoming an actual professional footballer. This isn't an impossible task. Its absolutely true that both sides of the OF have more financial resources than us and spend more on their youth teams than we do on our first team, but ultimately you can only field 11 players. Reserve football as numerous pro's have pointed out isn't 'real' football. Actually getting a chance to play for the first team is a huge competitive advantage over the OF in terms of attracting ambitious youngsters. So we should look for a sporting director with a track record in youth development. To my mind that comes down to Brian McClair who headed up Manchester Utd's academy for nearly a decade or Donald Park who is credited with Hibs golden generation and has been appointed by the SFA to be in charge of coach development. Either would be an excellent choice in getting us closer to achieving that goal (if indeed that is what we're trying to do). I don't buy into the Davie Weir chat at all, likewise Bevington is impressive but I don't think he meets our needs. We need someone who understands youth development and how to integrate that successfully with the first team. Both McClair and Park have a successful track record in doing that. It was John park who was at hibs academy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruyff Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 Looks like this thread has a bit to go. Might still be talking about this in a year at this rate. The boy at Preston, Joe Savage would be my pick. Director of Communications & Analysis at Hamilton, Chief Scout at Norwich, Head of Recruitment & Incharge of Scouting Dept at Preston. The boys ready made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyCant Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 10 minutes ago, jambocub said: It was John park who was at hibs academy Donald Park was there for time. Don’t know what his role was but he was definetly working there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OTT Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 1 hour ago, jambocub said: It was John park who was at hibs academy Both were at Hibs at the same time. Seems to cause confusion. https://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/hearts/interview-donald-park-run-ins-romanov-and-rod-petrie-taming-derek-riordan-and-garry-oconnor-and-hearts-first-relegation-2869425 For the avoidance of doubt: “That started with Alex Miller and myself going down to Musselburgh to sign Kenny Miller. Later came Derek [Riordan], Garry [O’Connor], Kevin [Thomson], Steven [Whittaker] and Scotty [Brown]''. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bunny Munro Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 The sun saying we're not bothering to appoint a SD until next year. 😕 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamboinglasgow Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 18 minutes ago, Bunny Munro said: The sun saying we're not bothering to appoint a SD until next year. 😕 Read the article, but I find it questionable. Was looking for the reason why its been shelved and they say its because of "hefty" legal costs meaning we have to reconsider who we hire. I may have got this wrong, but I thought our benefactor was covering our legal costs. Sounds like trouble making from the Sun trying to make out our fight for fairness as causing financial problems for the club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 On 09/07/2020 at 16:59, JimmyCant said: Donald Park was there for time. Don’t know what his role was but he was definetly working there He was there as a coach of some sort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 Just now, jamboinglasgow said: Read the article, but I find it questionable. Was looking for the reason why its been shelved and they say its because of "hefty" legal costs meaning we have to reconsider who we hire. I may have got this wrong, but I thought our benefactor was covering our legal costs. Sounds like trouble making from the Sun trying to make out our fight for fairness as causing financial problems for the club. I don’t think it’s been confirmed that anyone is covering our legal costs so I assume we. ( the club ) are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bunny Munro Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, jamboinglasgow said: Read the article, but I find it questionable. I find everything they write questionable. 😂 I find it strange there was not background in the article too. Edited July 12, 2020 by Bunny Munro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pans Jambo Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 4 minutes ago, davemclaren said: I don’t think it’s been confirmed that anyone is covering our legal costs so I assume we. ( the club ) are. I always thought (assumed) we were coving our own costs. I would be surprised if our ‘benefactor’ was covering this but hey ho... what do we know!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamboinglasgow Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 11 minutes ago, davemclaren said: I don’t think it’s been confirmed that anyone is covering our legal costs so I assume we. ( the club ) are. Fair enough, just find it odd that if the article is correct, all of sudden while we are interviewing candidates, Ann Budge suddenly feels the need to cut back on the position because of costs which I expect she has been given expected costs before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher75 Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 I guess it may not be so much the legal costs as the total uncertainty about our budget given the massive difference between reinstatement or playing in the Championship with compensation or playing in the Championship with no compensation plus a hefty legal bill. In the short term while there are no players to coach or matches to play, Robbie has a lot of time on his hands and the club may as well save a salary by getting him to do the recruitment and any contract negotiations. Or maybe the preferred candidate is available for free in the new year rather than having to compensate another club when money is short. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJGJ Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 4 minutes ago, jamboinglasgow said: Fair enough, just find it odd that if the article is correct, all of sudden while we are interviewing candidates, Ann Budge suddenly feels the need to cut back on the position because of costs which I expect she has been given expected costs before. A good decision not to proceed at present. It's a post that a case could be made for in the top league but one that is not required in the championship and especially in this day and age re covid and the financial consequences never mind the reduced income by being in a part season championship Everything we have should be focused on promotion in conjunction with youth development Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamboinglasgow Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 50 minutes ago, CJGJ said: A good decision not to proceed at present. It's a post that a case could be made for in the top league but one that is not required in the championship and especially in this day and age re covid and the financial consequences never mind the reduced income by being in a part season championship Everything we have should be focused on promotion in conjunction with youth development I disagree. The article talks about wanting to get someone in before the January window but I would say if you got them in December or early January then its too late for that window. Someone we need would be needed in now or next few months to start planning for January. If we are focused on youth development then we also need them in now to start looking at youth development and seeing where improvements need made. I understand the argument that it is a luxury in the Championship but its a long term appointment and the right choice needs time to implement things, pushing that back means the benefits a further back as well. Also think if it is true Ann Budge is scrubbing this at the moment then I am disappointed and question whether she wants to appoint one at all as she keeps putting it off. Either she wants one or not, she needs to make a decision Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GavK1012 Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 1 hour ago, jamboinglasgow said: Read the article, but I find it questionable. Was looking for the reason why its been shelved and they say its because of "hefty" legal costs meaning we have to reconsider who we hire. I may have got this wrong, but I thought our benefactor was covering our legal costs. Sounds like trouble making from the Sun trying to make out our fight for fairness as causing financial problems for the club. No, thats never been expressed anywhere...folk getting carried away with any benefactors past, present or future.....thinking we can just throw money about or they will foot any bills that come our way 🤪...this is still the real world we are in.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruyff Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 (edited) I don't know what to make of that tbh. Ann has said on two separate occasions pre-Stendel and post-Stendel that we would appoint a SD before we appointed a manager, neither time has it happened. However, they have previously and recently reported that we have spoken to D. Weir and Adrian Bevington. So what to believe. We were in the same situation then as we are now. 🤷 I think we do have to consider our current circumstances though. If we're in the Championship, do we really need a SD/Head of Recruitment? It might help but really we probably don't. We've still got a strong squad for that league and those players are still under contract. RN knows his onions and will have targets in mind from his time at DU. On the other hand, if we're in the SPL you'd think we would prefer to cast the net wider to improve the squad & get value for money to meet higher expectations. Therefore, you'd think under that scenario, we would like a SD/Head of Recruitment in place. Either way, until this case is over and we have certainty over our future then I can understand why Ann and the board have perhaps put the SD role on the shelf for the time being. We're public enemy number one. There has been a bit of change in media focus towards Hibs in the last few days with the cost cutting as well as signing new players. The Sun probably do have an agenda tbh. Any story that paints us in a negative light will get hits. I'd imagine over the next couple of days/weeks the Scottish Media will run a number of negative stories against us in the run up to the Arbitration decision and this could just be the beginning. Edited July 12, 2020 by Cruyff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoncurMacdonaldMercer Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 31 minutes ago, Cruyff said: I don't know what to make of that tbh. Ann has said on two separate occasions pre-Stendel and post-Stendel that we would appoint a SD before we appointed a manager, neither time has it happened queen ann has been making it up as she goes along for a number of years - plenty evidence of that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 On 08/07/2020 at 12:53, Dusk_Till_Dawn said: Their scouting is exceptional and uses data/statistics to pick up players for affordable fees who are often sold on for big money. They’re doing it again with Watkins/Benrahma. They accept that they’re going to lose players to bigger clubs but they use the money they have sensibly. It’s also helped them to fund a new stadium for next season. On top of that, they’ve had a consistent style of football for years and have always tried to recruit for it (coaches and players). They’re on the brink of the Premier League with a turnover of £15m, the same as ours, give or take, and crowds of around 12k. It’s a very good model. We tried the stats route, we got Cole Stockton. I'm wary of it TBH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruyff Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 8 minutes ago, MoncurMacdonaldMercer said: queen ann has been making it up as she goes along for a number of years - plenty evidence of that Certainly she and the board of Directors are culpable for for the abject misery we've endured on the park in the last few years. You won't find many good arguments against that. It's not been near good enough and the buck stops at the top. However, she has done the right thing with the wage cuts and with the Petition in regards to our expulsion and has defended the club on that front. For me, having a good Sporting Director would go a long way in taking on the footballing side of things and ensuring that we now meet the potential and expectations of the club & supporters. So, she has talked of taking steps to fix things and she has appointed a manager with a proven track record. We'll see if we do indeed appoint one or not. I believe she's looking to hand over the reigns anyway given there has also been talk of appointing a New CEO. We'll just need to see what happens. Things are a bit up in the air at the moment regarding the clubs future status. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamhammer Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 To be fair makes sense to wait until after arbitration so we/they know where we are and money available etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusk_Till_Dawn Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 6 hours ago, Smithee said: We tried the stats route, we got Cole Stockton. I'm wary of it TBH The only thing is, our recruitment department seems to have all the talent of a lettuce leaf. Maybe actual skilled people could make it work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Boy Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 Looks like we were unable to attract/afford a SD that matches what we are looking for. Looking for the right appointment, instead of just an appointment right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leveins Battalion Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 Rumours are there will be no appointment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cut The Crap Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 7 hours ago, MoncurMacdonaldMercer said: queen ann has been making it up as she goes along for a number of years - plenty evidence of that Indeed. At what point do we get to evaluate her significant contribution to the mess we are in and take steps to improve things in future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leveins Battalion Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 (edited) 1 minute ago, Cut The Crap said: Indeed. At what point do we get to evaluate her significant contribution to the mess we are in and take steps to improve things in future. Quotes today that she is to step down after the arbitration hearing. New CEO appointed. Edited July 13, 2020 by Leveins Battalion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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