spirt of 98 Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 Been thinking about this since Budge disclosed that Hearts pay big wages and a small win bonus. 1. Is this the reason the players appear not to care if they win or not. No motivation as the bonus is small. 2. Is this the reason we have so many injuries as player don’t need to play to make a decent wage. The slightest twinge and they are playing it up as they canny be ersed. why would you set the club up like this. We are soft and that’s the reason we are at the bottom of the table because there no need to win you get rewarded at Hearts for doing nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboAl Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 Just now, spirt of 98 said: Been thinking about this since Budge disclosed that Hearts pay big wages and a small win bonus. 1. Is this the reason the players appear not to care if they win or not. No motivation as the bonus is small. 2. Is this the reason we have so many injuries as player don’t need to play to make a decent wage. The slightest twinge and they are playing it up as they canny be ersed. why would you set the club up like this. We are soft and that’s the reason we are at the bottom of the table because there no need to win you get rewarded at Hearts for doing nothing. Are you from Peebles? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spirt of 98 Posted April 10, 2020 Author Share Posted April 10, 2020 No has this been covered? Sorry I don’t spend my life on here everyday so must have missed the thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricardo Shillyshally Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 Its a failed model. Typical of the Budge/Levein era Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greedy Jambo Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 42 minutes ago, spirt of 98 said: Been thinking about this since Budge disclosed that Hearts pay big wages and a small win bonus. 1. Is this the reason the players appear not to care if they win or not. No motivation as the bonus is small. 2. Is this the reason we have so many injuries as player don’t need to play to make a decent wage. The slightest twinge and they are playing it up as they canny be ersed. why would you set the club up like this. We are soft and that’s the reason we are at the bottom of the table because there no need to win you get rewarded at Hearts for doing nothing. You have the same problem as the board then. It took me 2 minutes to say that after i seen the statement. It was brushed under the carpet and put down to me apparently "trolling" though. Let's see how this thread goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pasquale for King Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 4 hours ago, spirt of 98 said: Been thinking about this since Budge disclosed that Hearts pay big wages and a small win bonus. 1. Is this the reason the players appear not to care if they win or not. No motivation as the bonus is small. 2. Is this the reason we have so many injuries as player don’t need to play to make a decent wage. The slightest twinge and they are playing it up as they canny be ersed. why would you set the club up like this. We are soft and that’s the reason we are at the bottom of the table because there no need to win you get rewarded at Hearts for doing nothing. I think you’re right, we are the softest and most easily beat team in the league, especially before Stendel took over. There’s a malaise about the club that hopefully will go with Levein, his pals and his players in the summer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan_R Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 (edited) Definitely. Compare with likes of hamilton. Bet they get a relative payday for staying up. No wonder they fight tooth and nail. Whether its just the fans or the occasion but wonder if we get a bigger bonus for the big matches. Only ones weve turned up at times this season. Model needs scrapped asap. For all the good thats been done there is still so much wrong at the club. Edited April 11, 2020 by Alan_R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 Football fans see black and white but it's always about finding the right balance. Anyway, generally speaking our players don't have too much respect from the fans just now - does anyone honestly think that shower of pricks would really be that much better if we'd tweaked the wage/bonus balance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEDNAR BOY Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 When we returned to The Premier League in the Mercer days it was all about “standard pay” and substantial bonus. Great games, all heart and passion and late winners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Marsh Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 11 hours ago, JamboAl said: Are you from Peebles? I opened this thread thinking it was about bonuses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambos_1874 Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 Bar the odd exception I would say virtually no player is happy taking a wage and not playing because they can't be bothered. Players want to play - that is why they got into football. So, I think that statement is complete and utter bullshit. Also, we maybe had to pay higher basic wages to secure the signature of some players as it provides more certainty than a bonus. We cannot pay a lot so to get an advantage over other clubs, especially English ones, we may need to offer longer contracts and higher basic pay. You can argue all day that we have signed the wrong/poor players but regardless, that is probably how we had to write contracts to get them in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beni Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 Just shows Budge is well intentioned but ultimately clueless. Levein was allowed to build an enormous squad of underperformers with insufficient oversight. Targets continually missed -no problem, here's more money Craig. From the boardroom to the changing room, the people responsible for the present shitshow should be held responsible. Unfortunately that looks unlikely, and the current gravy train has a while to run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beni Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 3 minutes ago, Jambos_1874 said: Bar the odd exception I would say virtually no player is happy taking a wage and not playing because they can't be bothered. Players want to play - that is why they got into football. So, I think that statement is complete and utter bullshit. Also, we maybe had to pay higher basic wages to secure the signature of some players as it provides more certainty than a bonus. We cannot pay a lot so to get an advantage over other clubs, especially English ones, we may need to offer longer contracts and higher basic pay. You can argue all day that we have signed the wrong/poor players but regardless, that is probably how we had to write contracts to get them in the first place. So if Heart's players are just as motivated as every other team's players, why, with the 4th biggest budget in the league, are we sitting adrift at the bottom? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambos_1874 Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 5 minutes ago, fancy a brew said: So if Heart's players are just as motivated as every other team's players, why, with the 4th biggest budget in the league, are we sitting adrift at the bottom? I didn't say they were as motivated. There can be many reasons for underperformance in any job. In this case my personal opinion is that they are poor players, the wrong mix of players, poor tactics pre-Stendel, Levein not getting the best out of them, players played in the wrong position etc. Bozanic is a prime example. I think he is a very hard worker but is also a very limited footballer. I also don't think Naismith's niggling injuries which kept him out are due to him not being bothered and same goes for any other player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spirt of 98 Posted April 11, 2020 Author Share Posted April 11, 2020 I used to work in an industry that some companies paid bonuses and some just a basic. I can tell you know that when on bonus I knuckled down had short lunch breaks and put in maximin effort to make sure my cash flow was as good as I could make it. With companies who only paid a good basic I coasted and did what I needed to do to get my wage. it’s the same in football ok most get into it for the love of the game and would play for free but not everyone is like that. Especially when you realise your not playing for the club of your dreams. The players need an incentive to perform. There is no trophy incentive in the Scottish league as we can’t win that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCrae Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 It really is unbelievable that we should have a wage structure that creates little motivation for the players, to win games or to be selected to play. You have to ask why did AB agree to this. She really doesn’t have a clue on how to run the football side of the club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 Just now, McCrae said: It really is unbelievable that we should have a wage structure that creates little motivation for the players, to win games or to be selected to play. You have to ask why did AB agree to this. She really doesn’t have a clue on how to run the football side of the club. Our players might have let us down but we've been stretching to sign them. Wasington, Smith, Whelan, Clare, Naismith, Boyce, all from English clubs and we'll have had to be competitive with our basic wage just to get them in the door. This isn't the problem with our squad, life just isn't that simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCrae Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 39 minutes ago, Smithee said: Our players might have let us down but we've been stretching to sign them. Wasington, Smith, Whelan, Clare, Naismith, Boyce, all from English clubs and we'll have had to be competitive with our basic wage just to get them in the door. This isn't the problem with our squad, life just isn't that simple. We couldn’t have done any worse without these players. No need to have a high basic wage policy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 Just now, McCrae said: We couldn’t have done any worse without these players. No need to have a high basic wage policy. That's not the point, no one knew in advance these particular players would fail, most of them were hailed as good signings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCrae Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 13 minutes ago, Smithee said: That's not the point, no one knew in advance these particular players would fail, most of them were hailed as good signings. The point is that our pay model is out of line with more successful clubs in our league. Need to get back to basics where players have an incentive to do well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 Just now, McCrae said: The point is that our pay model is out of line with more successful clubs in our league. Need to get back to basics where players have an incentive to do well. Surely no one believes it's as simple as the clubs above us are more bonus oriented? What are the relative pay models at the rangers, motherwell, hibs, aberdeen, killie? Do we even know? People seem to think there's a hard and fast correct way of doing things but it's never that simple. Our bonus structure is not the reason this group of players have failed us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spellczech Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 I guess it is reflective of having a big squad. Would be a lot of unhappy players if only 14 could get win bonuses...However, considering the depth of squad is simply not there, with very few players capable of stepping up and being good enough (exception was Dikamona), it seems like a really stupid way to set up a football club's wages structure...The more you hear about these aspects of the management of the club the more you think that Levein really wasn't as good or as capable as he appeared to be. However, this is one that Budge should have known better too... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 Footballers get on my tits. Everyone else works @100% every day of every week, of every month, of every year and are pleased when a wee bonus pops into their wages. Them!? They can feck off! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambos_1874 Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 5 minutes ago, ri Alban said: Footballers get on my tits. Everyone else works @100% every day of every week, of every month, of every year and are pleased when a wee bonus pops into their wages. Them!? They can feck off! No, they really don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 1 minute ago, Jambos_1874 said: No, they really don't. Who? Well I do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambos_1874 Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 1 minute ago, ri Alban said: Who? Well I do. There a lot of people out there who do not give 100%, all the time. In fact, nobody does. There are also a lot of people who give far less than 100% most of the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 Just now, Jambos_1874 said: There a lot of people out there who do not give 100%, all the time. In fact, nobody does. There are also a lot of people who give far less than 100% most of the time. Well I can only judge folk from my own experience, and 99% I worked with wouldn't last long if they didn't pull their weight. Most people would love to play football 2 times a week for the money they're on. Feck, most folk who paid to play football in leagues up and down the country, would lose their shit if they lost or any of their mates didn't try. Yet, these players can't be bothered because they don't earn thousands on bonus'. We'd all play for Hearts for feck all and work at our jobs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambos_1874 Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 4 minutes ago, ri Alban said: Well I can only judge folk from my own experience, and 99% I worked with wouldn't last long if they didn't pull their weight. Most people would love to play football 2 times a week for the money they're on. Feck, most folk who paid to play football in leagues up and down the country, would lose their shit if they lost or any of their mates didn't try. Yet, these players can't be bothered because they don't earn thousands on bonus'. We'd all play for Hearts for feck all and work at our jobs. How do you genuinely know they can't be bothered? I would say that is pretty unlikely. Poor players maybe, possibly played in the wrong position, but I doubt they can't be bothered. That's just standard fan chat when the team is playing badly. Damour, for example, maybe plays like he can't be bothered but I think it is a case of him being very slow and a sub-standard footballer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7628mm Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 17 minutes ago, Jambos_1874 said: There a lot of people out there who do not give 100%, all the time. In fact, nobody does. There are also a lot of people who give far less than 100% most of the time. Unfortunately all these people seem to have been given long term 1st team contracts with Heart of Midlothian Football Club Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnthomas Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 2 hours ago, Smithee said: Our players might have let us down but we've been stretching to sign them. Wasington, Smith, Whelan, Clare, Naismith, Boyce, all from English clubs and we'll have had to be competitive with our basic wage just to get them in the door. This isn't the problem with our squad, life just isn't that simple. I do agree but also think incentives can make a difference . When AB was talking about this last week I got the impression she thought it was a mistake . It was done for financial reasons , understandable given our recent history . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OTT Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 Should never be club policy going forward. We tried to be good ***** and were let down massively. Never again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queensferryjambo Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 15 hours ago, spirt of 98 said: Been thinking about this since Budge disclosed that Hearts pay big wages and a small win bonus. 1. Is this the reason the players appear not to care if they win or not. No motivation as the bonus is small. 2. Is this the reason we have so many injuries as player don’t need to play to make a decent wage. The slightest twinge and they are playing it up as they canny be ersed. why would you set the club up like this. We are soft and that’s the reason we are at the bottom of the table because there no need to win you get rewarded at Hearts for doing nothing. In the league the way Hearts league bonuses was explained to me was they do not even get a bonus unless they finish 4th or above. So the fact they have to reach 4th spot to get extra money should be incentive enough. The way the bonus system is done is each player is awarded points depending on if they play, are a used sub or unused sub. All the bonus money is in one pot depending on league position at the end and the money is divided depending on how many points you have. So getting into the team and playing week in week out get you more of the bonus pot so doing well and getting in the team is the incentive. Not sure about how bonuses are done in the cup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1971fozzy Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 15 hours ago, Ricardo Shillyshally said: Its a failed model. Typical of the Budge/Levein era pretty much. It’s why we are bottom. Levein given total control to throw huge deals at complete duds. Boils my piss Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spirt of 98 Posted April 12, 2020 Author Share Posted April 12, 2020 On 11/04/2020 at 12:55, queensferryjambo said: In the league the way Hearts league bonuses was explained to me was they do not even get a bonus unless they finish 4th or above. So the fact they have to reach 4th spot to get extra money should be incentive enough. The way the bonus system is done is each player is awarded points depending on if they play, are a used sub or unused sub. All the bonus money is in one pot depending on league position at the end and the money is divided depending on how many points you have. So getting into the team and playing week in week out get you more of the bonus pot so doing well and getting in the team is the incentive. Not sure about how bonuses are done in the cup. That doesn’t change the fact that Hearts pay a high basic and low bonus. It just explains the criteria to qualify for the bonus. other clubs paying a lower basic and higher bonus appear hungrier than Hearts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queensferryjambo Posted April 12, 2020 Share Posted April 12, 2020 22 minutes ago, spirt of 98 said: That doesn’t change the fact that Hearts pay a high basic and low bonus. It just explains the criteria to qualify for the bonus. other clubs paying a lower basic and higher bonus appear hungrier than Hearts. That is incorrect Hearts pay high wages and a high bonus - the only difference is our players have to meet a certain criteria to get their bonus. The incentive is certainly there. If they get 4th they get a big bonus and the bonus goes up proportionally to prize money for places above 4th. What would you prefer that we give them bonuses on a game to game basis? Or pay lower basic? If we paid lower basic we will get crap players (I am aware we already have them). If for instance we paid game by game bonuses our useless players this season would have had 4 bonuses so far for earning us bottom of the table. Would you be happy rewarding this team more financially? Even in a mid table season we would be rewarding mediocrity. I totally understand your logic I honestly do get it but I can't see it working at Hearts. Just my opinion on it of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spirt of 98 Posted April 12, 2020 Author Share Posted April 12, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, queensferryjambo said: That is incorrect Hearts pay high wages and a high bonus - the only difference is our players have to meet a certain criteria to get their bonus. The incentive is certainly there. If they get 4th they get a big bonus and the bonus goes up proportionally to prize money for places above 4th. What would you prefer that we give them bonuses on a game to game basis? Or pay lower basic? If we paid lower basic we will get crap players (I am aware we already have them). If for instance we paid game by game bonuses our useless players this season would have had 4 bonuses so far for earning us bottom of the table. Would you be happy rewarding this team more financially? Even in a mid table season we would be rewarding mediocrity. I totally understand your logic I honestly do get it but I can't see it working at Hearts. Just my opinion on it of course. Budge stated high basic and low bonus. yes the bonus should be on a game by game basis. That way if you have a run of bad results there still a chance of getting a bonus for a win. If there is no bonus because we can no longer get 4th place some may Chuck it. Other teams who pay low wages manage to get more out their players. I can’t put my finger on why and this new information leads me to believe this could (not saying it definitely is) be the problem or contribute to it. Edited April 12, 2020 by spirt of 98 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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