St Johnstone can't maintain wage bill

[JCR]

1 hour ago, mrmarkus1981 said:

I said this on a different thread earlier in the year. I stayed in Auchterarder over New year, there were two Celtic buses dropping people off one night. St J stadium is 10 minutes down the road. Mental

That’s everywhere. I’ve seen hundreds of Celtic fans waiting for the train into Glasgow at Hamilton West (besides Hamilton’s ground) as Hearts were coming in to play Hamilton. 
 

The Edinburgh-Queen Street trains on Old Firm v Hearts game days all have dozens of people on them who are clearly Edinburgh born and bread but have Rangers/Celtic season tickets. 

Edited February 23, 2020 by JCR

[Dia Liom]

I mind the boxing day game v livi a couple of years ago when we won the championship.  Nice away game for us with a lot of folk at home and free to attend, Livi were having financial troubles.  There must have been 5/6k hearts fans there, maybe 1k livi fans.  Good news all round surely?

 

I know it's the old firm, and please god let us never see the day where they are sitting in our seats, but don't see the problem if we were nowhere near filling tynie.

[1971fozzy]

42 minutes ago, OTT said:

They're not going bust ffs. 

 

They've overspent. Will spend the next 2/3 seasons correcting it. Might get lucky with a couple of player sales. 

 

The fact he's acknowledge it shows there will be an effort to fix it.

absolutely.

and it’s also a clever sly dig at their roaster manager to button it. Very clever IMHO as now Wright can’t greet about funds.

I would say that any club out with the uglies should not budget for cup runs.
The way things are looking we are looking at a half empty stadium next Saturday. 

Edited February 23, 2020 by 1971fozzy

[SectionDJambo]

11 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

Totally disagree. I believe no club should ever sell more tickets to away supporters than to its own support. Opinions though, I suppose. 

I’m only thinking that it’s not desirable to lock people out of a stadium that has loads of empty seats. Football fans are creatures of habit, who can easily find something else to spend their cash on.

I don’t like seeing or hearing the crews from Glasgow in the whole Roseburn stand and really wish that we could squeeze them out, especially due to the way we get treated through there. Hearts can get away with seats in other areas not being sold. Clubs like St Johnstone, Kilmarnock and Motherwell can’t. Annoying as it is, it doesn’t make good business sense to not sell as many seats as clubs, like them, can.

Motherwell actually tried to sell a debenture scheme to Celtic and Rangers fans for the away stand at Fir Park when they built it, to try to pay for the build. 

[Beast Boy]

1 minute ago, SectionDJambo said:

I’m only thinking that it’s not desirable to lock people out of a stadium that has loads of empty seats. Football fans are creatures of habit, who can easily find something else to spend their cash on.

I don’t like seeing or hearing the crews from Glasgow in the whole Roseburn stand and really wish that we could squeeze them out, especially due to the way we get treated through there. Hearts can get away with seats in other areas not being sold. Clubs like St Johnstone, Kilmarnock and Motherwell can’t. Annoying as it is, it doesn’t make good business sense to not sell as many seats as clubs, like them, can.

Motherwell actually tried to sell a debenture scheme to Celtic and Rangers fans for the away stand at Fir Park when they built it, to try to pay for the build. 

I find it hard to care about the lot of Celtic and Rangers fans at the best of times, but ones from Perth not being able to get in to St Johnstone’s ground to watch their bigoted favourites dominate their local club? There honestly isn’t a violin tiny enough tbh.

[1971fozzy]

30 minutes ago, SectionDJambo said:

I have a belief that if a club can, it should sell seats to punters who want to go to a match. It makes no sense to lock people out who would have paid to get in. The fans are the life of the game, even the annoying ones. The only exception would be if they constantly caused security problems by their numbers.

So I don’t see the problem in selling what they feel isn’t going to be taken up by home fans to Celtic and Rangers. If St Johnstone fans don’t like that, the blame lies with the locals who don’t support the club financially. 

It’s the same at Tynecastle. If we can’t sell part of the Roseburn to Hearts fans, it makes no sense to turn away cash from away fans who want to go along. There are issues with the behaviour of the Glasgow 2 at Tynecastle, though, which if they can’t be sorted, should cause a restriction in their numbers.

what your saying is complete sense. For (example) clubs like St Johnstone , St Mirren, Partick and Hamilton its huge for their income to hand their stadiums over to the old firm.  
St Johnstones home support probably fits into one stand to be fair so (as said above) any criticism should be directed at the fact their local community has little to no interest in supporting them.

Kilmarnock are another cracking example.

[SectionDJambo]

7 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

I find it hard to care about the lot of Celtic and Rangers fans at the best of times, but ones from Perth not being able to get in to St Johnstone’s ground to watch their bigoted favourites dominate their local club? There honestly isn’t a violin tiny enough tbh.

No argument from me there, but for a club like St Johnstone, their cash could keep a lot of people, currently employed by them in offices etc., in a job. We just need to understand that our situation isn’t the same as theirs.

I don’t have any love for St Johnstone. They’ve been a nuisance to me following Hearts since the 60s. But I can understand why they have opened up their ground to some away fans. As long as they can deal with the downside of the security and nuisance issues they bring with them.
Today St Johnstone took the Rangers cash and sent them home disappointed. A good outcome for them.

[Doctor FinnBarr]

2 hours ago, Castle rock said:

Was it not caley thistle like yourself I may be totally wrong but I'm sure caley done something to help us

 

I think it was Caley, Partick and St Johnstone who all donated £1 for every a

way fan that paid in.

[Beast Boy]

3 minutes ago, SectionDJambo said:

No argument from me there, but for a club like St Johnstone, their cash could keep a lot of people, currently employed by them in offices etc., in a job. We just need to understand that our situation isn’t the same as theirs.

I don’t have any love for St Johnstone. They’ve been a nuisance to me following Hearts since the 60s. But I can understand why they have opened up their ground to some away fans. As long as they can deal with the downside of the security and nuisance issues they bring with them.
Today St Johnstone took the Rangers cash and sent them home disappointed. A good outcome for them.

I take all your points. I still don’t agree though mate. If they have to downsize to live within their means, then I don’t see the problem tbh. They aren’t exactly much bigger than many of the clubs in the division below. Biggest difference for many of those teams is that they don’t have a stadium many times to big for them that they can use to fill their grounds with glory hunting bigots every few weeks. I just don’t think it’s healthy for clubs to be totally reliant on other clubs filling their grounds for them. Just my opinion though. 👍

[John Findlay]

54 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

Totally disagree. I believe no club should ever sell more tickets to away supporters than to its own support. Opinions though, I suppose. 

Never stand on the terracing at Tynecastle in pre segregation days when the old firm came to town? Football started long before all seater stadium and Sky television.

[OTT]

27 minutes ago, 1971fozzy said:

what your saying is complete sense. For (example) clubs like St Johnstone , St Mirren, Partick and Hamilton its huge for their income to hand their stadiums over to the old firm.  
St Johnstones home support probably fits into one stand to be fair so (as said above) any criticism should be directed at the fact their local community has little to no interest in supporting them.

Kilmarnock are another cracking example.

 

Its not healthy for the game for so many clubs like the aforementioned clubs in your post to rely so heavily on away crowds to subsidise their spending. 

 

Real change in the game is being held back by self interest created out of necessity. We need clubs to truly spend within their means to be able to have wiggle room to experiment with league structure. For example, increasing the number of teams in the top flight could have huge benefits for youth development. But if clubs A, B & C are throwing money at the poorest mediocre journeymen then this isn't possible. 

 

If clubs weren't reliant on the OF, ourselves, Hibs and the dons to subsidise them then there would be a lot more freedom and flexibility in how the league operates. Sadly, it needs to be a collective decision, since no one is going to offer up being less competitive. 

 

Hopefully, we hit breaking point with Doncaster and the suits at Hampden soon and clubs outside the OF with strong leaders can force through a competent CEO to build the games finances. 

[tcjambo]

5 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

Its not healthy for the game for so many clubs like the aforementioned clubs in your post to rely so heavily on away crowds to subsidise their spending. 

 

Real change in the game is being held back by self interest created out of necessity. We need clubs to truly spend within their means to be able to have wiggle room to experiment with league structure. For example, increasing the number of teams in the top flight could have huge benefits for youth development. But if clubs A, B & C are throwing money at the poorest mediocre journeymen then this isn't possible. 

 

If clubs weren't reliant on the OF, ourselves, Hibs and the dons to subsidise them then there would be a lot more freedom and flexibility in how the league operates. Sadly, it needs to be a collective decision, since no one is going to offer up being less competitive. 

 

Hopefully, we hit breaking point with Doncaster and the suits at Hampden soon and clubs outside the OF with strong leaders can force through a competent CEO to build the games finances. 

Sevco living beyond their means are driving this again unfortunately

[SectionDJambo]

5 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

Never stand on the terracing at Tynecastle in pre segregation days when the old firm came to town? Football started long before all seater stadium and Sky television.

Thank goodness we won’t ever go back to those days. Squeezed into a wee corner of the terracing whilst the hordes from the west took over. Used to go to the Enclosure to get away from them. 
Segregation is the best thing to have happened to Scottish football in my lifetime. Got our ground back for the games against them.

[Pasquale for King]

1 hour ago, soonbe110 said:

And their keeper 

Are you kidding me? Have you seen some of the goals he’s thrown into his net this season ffs 🙈.

[Beast Boy]

20 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

Never stand on the terracing at Tynecastle in pre segregation days when the old firm came to town? Football started long before all seater stadium and Sky television.

Yes, yes I did. I started going in 1986. Thanks for letting me know that it was football I was attending though.

We also used to split gate receipts, I don’t imagine we will go back to doing that either. Times have changed though, and whether you or I like it or not, we had to build all seater stadia, and the home fans and away fans were segregated. In this modern time where that is the reality, I don’t think clubs should sell more tickets to away supporters and give away three quarters of our ground. If we were to do the same, or similar as/to St Johnstone or Killie, we would be playing in a 40-50k stadium in front of 14-17k fans most of the season and then 40-50k four times a season v the OF. We’d be much better off financially, but it would make a mockery of the league and our club.

 

Sorry, I just don’t agree with it.

[Beast Boy]

36 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

Its not healthy for the game for so many clubs like the aforementioned clubs in your post to rely so heavily on away crowds to subsidise their spending. 

 

Real change in the game is being held back by self interest created out of necessity. We need clubs to truly spend within their means to be able to have wiggle room to experiment with league structure. For example, increasing the number of teams in the top flight could have huge benefits for youth development. But if clubs A, B & C are throwing money at the poorest mediocre journeymen then this isn't possible. 

 

If clubs weren't reliant on the OF, ourselves, Hibs and the dons to subsidise them then there would be a lot more freedom and flexibility in how the league operates. Sadly, it needs to be a collective decision, since no one is going to offer up being less competitive. 

 

Hopefully, we hit breaking point with Doncaster and the suits at Hampden soon and clubs outside the OF with strong leaders can force through a competent CEO to build the games finances. 

This is where I am at too.

[Governor Tarkin]

3 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

Yes, yes I did. I started going in 1986. Thanks for letting me know that it was football I was attending though.

We also used to split gate receipts, I don’t imagine we will go back to doing that either. Times have changed though, and whether you or I like it or not, we had to build all seater stadia, and the home fans and away fans were segregated. In this modern time where that is the reality, I don’t think clubs should sell more tickets to away supporters and give away three quarters of our ground. If we were to do the same, or similar as/to St Johnstone or Killie, we would be playing in a 40-50k stadium in front of 14-17k fans most of the season and then 40-50k four times a season v the OF. We’d be much better off financially, but it would make a mockery of the league and our club.

 

Sorry, I just don’t agree with it.

 

There was segregation at Tynecastle in 1986.

[Beast Boy]

1 minute ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

There was segregation at Tynecastle in 1986.

Ah, fair point. Just the terraces still there, and the old stands/shed. Apologies @John Findlay, I stood on the terraces post segregation. I was however aware that there was football before SKY TV. 

[Tasavallan]

Last time Saints won promotion they declined to run a Pro-Youth Academy like the other SPL clubs on grounds of cost and instead maintained "part-time" youth teams in the SFL youth leagues.  

 

My lad was with their U16s at the time but Saints decided at end of that season to scrap their U15/U16/U17s/U19s and only run a reserve team, getting rid of most of their youth players.  Taslad ended up moving to Livi U17s and then Hughes/Collins did a similar cull when they came in.

[Doctor FinnBarr]

8 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

Ah, fair point. Just the terraces still there, and the old stands/shed. Apologies @John Findlay, I stood on the terraces post segregation. I was however aware that there was football before SKY TV. 

 

Being a short arse I can actually watch games much easier now we have seating, much prefered terracing though.

[DETTY29]

At least their media team have a bit about them, retweeting this single fish from Sevconians.

 

 

And this

 

https://twitter.com/stjohnstone1884/status/1231674844015661057/photo/1

 

Edited February 23, 2020 by DETTY29

[jambocub]

Punching well above their weight  and good luck to them .

 

 

[Beast Boy]

1 minute ago, FinnBarr Saunders said:

 

Being a short arse I can actually watch games much easier now we have seating, much prefered terracing though.

I was only seven when I started going so I sympathise. Times have changed though, and they are never going to change back. We need to move on and accept those days are gone.

[jambocub]

2 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

I was only seven when I started going so I sympathise. Times have changed though, and they are never going to change back. We need to move on and accept those days are gone.

Or move on and accept we'll never have days like we had in the past

[Section Q]

3 hours ago, Toxteth O'Grady said:

As long as everyone gets paid what they are due then there is no story here 

This.

Calm down people.

Short memories eh.....!

[Beast Boy]

6 minutes ago, jambocub said:

Or move on and accept we'll never have days like we had in the past

Well yeah. We will have different days.

[jambocub]

25 minutes ago, Tasavallan said:

Last time Saints won promotion they declined to run a Pro-Youth Academy like the other SPL clubs on grounds of cost and instead maintained "part-time" youth teams in the SFL youth leagues.  

 

My lad was with their U16s at the time but Saints decided at end of that season to scrap their U15/U16/U17s/U19s and only run a reserve team, getting rid of most of their youth players.  Taslad ended up moving to Livi U17s and then Hughes/Collins did a similar cull when they came in.

They've lived within their budget /means for a long time . It seems to be something other clubs do better than us and it annoys me..the amount of money we waist  compared to others on youth football is crazy

 

 

[jambocub]

2 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

Well yeah. We will have different days.

We ain't heading towards any good day's 

[Beast Boy]

1 minute ago, jambocub said:

They've lived within their budget /means for a long time . It seems to be something other clubs do better than us and it annoys me..the amount of money we waist  compared to others on youth football is crazy

 

 

In fairness, they were gifted a stadium and never had to spend millions getting in to debt to comply with league rules, like we did.

[Beast Boy]

1 minute ago, jambocub said:

We ain't heading towards any good day's 

Really? Well that’s a bit shit to hear. Hoping that’s just your opinion, and that you aren’t psychic. 

[Morgan]

5 minutes ago, jambocub said:

We ain't heading towards any good day's 

That’s cheery.

[Morgan]

6 minutes ago, jambocub said:

We ain't heading towards any good day's 

Are you American?

[jambocub]

3 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

In fairness, they were gifted a stadium and never had to spend millions getting in to debt to comply with league rules, like we did.

Do you think league rules lead to us getting in debt or long time mis management?

My point is give them some credit for punching way above there means

[jambocub]

5 minutes ago, Morgan said:

That’s cheery.

Unfortunately cheery is miles away from reality at our club. Right now and to make matters worse we've apparently never been run better .lol

Edited February 23, 2020 by jambocub
Missed words

[Morgan]

1 minute ago, jambocub said:

Unfortunately chee

Thanks for clearing that up.  

[soonbe110]

1 hour ago, Pasquale for King said:

Are you kidding me? Have you seen some of the goals he’s thrown into his net this season ffs 🙈.

Always looked decent to me especially when we have played them over last couple of years. 

[Uche]

I do not think we are in a position to judge here unfortunately.  Good luck to Saints in digging themselves out.

[Beast Boy]

15 minutes ago, jambocub said:

Do you think league rules lead to us getting in debt or long time mis management?

My point is give them some credit for punching way above there means

The need to build an all seater stadium, I would say was the main reason. HMFC were not alone in being stung by that one, and many clubs barely survived. The TV deal debacles from SKY through Setanta and then the  BBC didn’t help, and neither did the gigantic overdrafts with BoS. 

[Pasquale for King]

30 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

Always looked decent to me especially when we have played them over last couple of years. 

Honestly have a look at some of their goals this season, and last. Remember Halkett scoring from 45 yards against them for Livi for example. Wright was a GK too. Here’s an excerpt from the first article I looked at. I usually look at how players do against us too, most GKs seem to have great games against us.

Edited February 23, 2020 by Pasquale for King

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, DETTY29 said:

At least their media team have a bit about them, retweeting this single fish from Sevconians.

 

 

And this

 

https://twitter.com/stjohnstone1884/status/1231674844015661057/photo/1

 

 

These teams want us beat... wtf?

 

This is defo a guy who scum saves on football manager and brags about winning the champions league.

[deejtee]

Any similarity to son taking over from dad at Dundee United and ploughing less in I wonder?

[Fozzyonthefence]

4 hours ago, Fort Vallance said:

They aren't and never have been a top six club. They had a wee period in the 70's when they had a decent side. If they're honest the move out of town killed them. Watch out Aberdeen.

I don’t think the move has killed them at all.  They’ve never had a great support but Perth is only around the same size as Dunfermline or Kirkcaldy.  This must be the best decade (depending on views when a decade ends!) in their history - they’ve won a cup and  finished in the top 6 a fair number of times.  In fact, they’ve finished in the top 4 and even the top 3 in 4 of the last 7 seasons, a much better record than ours. 
 

Does that not make them a top 6 club? What does constitute a top 6 club other than finishing in the top 6?!

 

 

[Castle rock]

2 hours ago, FinnBarr Saunders said:

 

I think it was Caley, Partick and St Johnstone who all donated £1 for every a

way fan that paid in.

 

That was it  👍

[luckydug]

4 hours ago, Fort Vallance said:

They aren't and never have been a top six club. They had a wee period in the 70's when they had a decent side. If they're honest the move out of town killed them. Watch out Aberdeen.

Agree about the move out of town.

The St Johnstone fans were assured there would be lots of public transport laid on. There was at first but now it's just a normal Saturday bus service into town. Even with their poor crowds it still takes ages to get away from the Stadium and you are lucky to get back into town an hour after the game.

I have no doubt these problems put people of going there.

Aberdeen fans are about to suffer the same fate. Lots of promises but will end up with hardly any public transport. 

[luckydug]

13 minutes ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

I don’t think the move has killed them at all.  They’ve never had a great support but Perth is only around the same size as Dunfermline or Kirkcaldy.  This must be the best decade (depending on views when a decade ends!) in their history - they’ve won a cup and  finished in the top 6 a fair number of times.  In fact, they’ve finished in the top 4 and even the top 3 in 4 of the last 7 seasons, a much better record than ours. 
 

Does that not make them a top 6 club? What does constitute a top 6 club other than finishing in the top 6?!

 

 

He means support wise.

Even if it's knocked 1000 of their gates it's massive for them.

We could do with the people who

run St J running Hearts considering how they consistently consistently punch above their weight.

What could they achieve with our resources  ?

[jambocub]

1 hour ago, Morgan said:

Thanks for clearing that up.  

No problem 👍

[Fozzyonthefence]

39 minutes ago, luckydug said:

He means support wise.

Even if it's knocked 1000 of their gates it's massive for them.

We could do with the people who

run St J running Hearts considering how they consistently consistently punch above their weight.

What could they achieve with our resources  ?

You mean what could Tommy Wright achieve with our resources?!  I’m fairly certain he would have kept us up this season.  

[Cruyff]

They do well St Johnstone. I think Tommy Wright has done miracles with them. It's just a shame local supporters don't back their sides as strongly as they could. 

[martoon]

The Hibby will be going nuts.

 

The most honest, live within your means, football club, with a fanbase of the highest moral standards and yet another bunch of cheaturz have diddled them?

 

Moffat, Baj, Sergey, and that weirdo who hung about McLeod St. during the building of the new main, have their work cut out email wise.

 

 

 

 

[Baxfee]

Not enough bums on seats doesn’t help and really hits the wee clubs.  However Scottish clubs get peanuts to share from tv money and sponsorship so will always struggle. Celtic and their European ties take them to a different level. The huns are just stupid and think they can spend what they want cos ‘they’re Rangers’. The rest of us have to live within our means.