Jump to content

Dementia in football ( Gordon McQueen diagnosed )


Ray Gin

Recommended Posts

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/50124102?ns_campaign=bbc_match_of_the_day&ns_linkname=sport&ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR2DkfHV6Dmz7h1riDDdkGOo1ILCH9hMkR34alcGFhwbBW2pcDWfZi21ktg

 

Former professional footballers are three and a half times more likely to die of dementia than people of the same age range in the general population, according to new research.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Diadora Van Basten

I watched the news report and did wonder if the reason more players died of dementia was because they lived longer having a physically active job.

 

I think people need to be careful with this kind of report as we do have an obesity crisis and need kids to do exercise to combat it.

Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, Diadora Van Basten said:

I watched the news report and did wonder if the reason more players died of dementia was because they lived longer having a physically active job.

 

I think people need to be careful with this kind of report as we do have an obesity crisis and need kids to do exercise to combat it.

My partner was a community psychiatric nurse for the over 65s in Edinburgh for 30 years she had many former players as patients. She's not a fan so it was only when her , mostly male,  colleagues told her they were former top players that she realised. Think heading the heavy weight balls used up until about the 1970s was a major factor. Maybe we will see a decline in the numbers affected with the lighter ball, though Aidey White might not think that after yesterday.

Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, Italian Lambretta said:

Seems to be affecting our support as well. Quite a lot cant find their way to Tynecastle. 

 

Quite a lot seem to have forgotten which team they are meant to be supporting too. They would rather boo Hearts and scream abuse at our players than the opposition.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, it is a risk but the rewards are such that it is a risk worth taking. I suppose it would depend what position we are talking...defenders for example will header a ball far more than any other player

Edited by AlimOzturk
Link to post
Share on other sites
been here before

My grandad played as a centre half at a pretty high level until the war came along and I can recall him telling me about those old leather balls.

 

Heading a dry clean one was sore. Heading a wet one coming down from a height and you were groggy for a few minutes but heading a soaking wet one on the laces and he'd forget large parts of the game "like heading a cannonball".  Many of his team mates took painkillers/tonics before the game for expected headaches after it.

 

Concussion didnt exist back then, no such thing. A quick splash with the watery sponge and maybe a fag at half time and you were as right as rain.

 

Alan Shearer made a really good programme a year or two back about this very subject including interviews with older boys, ex pros who played with lighter balls than in the 20s-40s but who still had marked deterioration. He also done a coulple of tests on himself heading modern lightweight balls that showed a marked loss in his immediate brain functioning.

 

Its worth watching if you find it. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Jeff Astle's daughter was just on TV and I'm afraid just didn't appear not up to scratch in her claims but she has helped shine alight on the issue

 

I understand the feelings but you need to be aware of the facts before commenting and we need more research..and urgently

 

More needs to be done and the money is available to research in even greater numbers and depth though the English PFA have been slow to act

 

However football is not the only sport with risk (and many others with a higher risk factor) but as it is the most popular sport it will attract more publicity

 

Of course we should look at heading at a young age and perhaps ban it until 10/12 years of age should the facts back it up..It may be very light balls can be used to practice heading until then 

 

1 in 79 of the population in the UK has dementia but of course this rises over 65

 

 

Edited by CJGJ
Link to post
Share on other sites
Big Slim Stylee
28 minutes ago, been here before said:

My grandad played as a centre half at a pretty high level until the war came along and I can recall him telling me about those old leather balls.

 

Heading a dry clean one was sore. Heading a wet one coming down from a height and you were groggy for a few minutes but heading a soaking wet one on the laces and he'd forget large parts of the game "like heading a cannonball".  Many of his team mates took painkillers/tonics before the game for expected headaches after it.

 

Concussion didnt exist back then, no such thing. A quick splash with the watery sponge and maybe a fag at half time and you were as right as rain.

 

Alan Shearer made a really good programme a year or two back about this very subject including interviews with older boys, ex pros who played with lighter balls than in the 20s-40s but who still had marked deterioration. He also done a coulple of tests on himself heading modern lightweight balls that showed a marked loss in his immediate brain functioning.

 

Its worth watching if you find it. 

 

My uncle got Alzheimer’s at 56. An ex-pro, he was told that heading those wet balls was the equivalent of someone repeatedly dropping a sack of coal on your head.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Sutton weighs in

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/celtic-icon-chris-sutton-says-20669037

 

"Chris Sutton last night insisted the footballing authorities had “blood on their hands” after a study revealed male professional footballers are five times more likely to die of Alzheimer’s than other men."

"Where was the duty of care? Had I known what we know now, I would not have said yes to heading hundreds of wet, heavy balls at an afternoon training session if asked.

“At least youngsters have that now. My dad is suffering from chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE) – a degenerative disease of the brain caused by repetitive brain trauma. He is 75 and first developed symptoms of dementia when he was still in his 60s. For those of you who have not had direct contact with this awful disease, let me try to explain it to you. My dad has to wear a nappy. He cannot remember I played football, or that he did either.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Can remember back in the 90s jumping up to head the old mitre canon ball that had spent a few weeks sitting in the garden soaking up all the water before being taken to school or the park.

 

Felt like my neck had been compressed into my spine. 

 

These days though it is like heading a pillow. Not much fun if you get blasted in the coupon but standard headers are much softer now.

 

I don't imagine it does the same damage it used to but doing it over and over again can't be a good thing regardless. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Bauld said:

Can remember back in the 90s jumping up to head the old mitre canon ball that had spent a few weeks sitting in the garden soaking up all the water before being taken to school or the park.

 

Felt like my neck had been compressed into my spine. 

 

These days though it is like heading a pillow. Not much fun if you get blasted in the coupon but standard headers are much softer now.

 

I don't imagine it does the same damage it used to but doing it over and over again can't be a good thing regardless. 

 

Check the link above. Barely any difference. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

Check the link above. Barely any difference. 

 

I suppose we will find out. As a coach myself we never practice heading the ball. This is something I have followed for some time when America first started releasing their findings.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Not read the details but my first thought was that it was a very flawed survey in terms of relevance today. Players were born between 1900 and 1970. Meaning careers from 1920s. I was born in 74 and I remember heading footballs that felt like bricks, can't imagine how heavy the balls were from 20 to 70s. The modern football is very light. Good that it's being looked at of course. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Ray Gin said:

 

 

It's unavoidable in a game. When I was that age I was throwing my head at everything and I have boys in my team who do the same.

 

We never practice headers in training. I banned that from the teams I coach years ago. 

 

But even without any coaching or training or even the mention of headers some kids will always just go for the ball.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 22/10/2019 at 21:02, baxterd1974 said:

Not read the details but my first thought was that it was a very flawed survey in terms of relevance today. Players were born between 1900 and 1970. Meaning careers from 1920s. I was born in 74 and I remember heading footballs that felt like bricks, can't imagine how heavy the balls were from 20 to 70s. The modern football is very light. Good that it's being looked at of course. 

 

3 grams difference between an old wet leather ball and modern footballs. Next to nothing.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

On the plus side, this might encourage future Scottish players to be more technical and keep the ball on the deck instead of the culture of hoofball and "GERRITUPTHEPARK!!!1"

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Ray Gin said:

On the plus side, this might encourage future Scottish players to be more technical and keep the ball on the deck instead of the culture of hoofball and "GERRITUPTHEPARK!!!1"

 

 

The SYFA is working hard to encourage coaches and teams to train players to take possession of the ball under pressure, have faith in themselves to dribble it more instead of pass, pass pass, hoof. They are trying to bring a more technical aspect to the game but too many coaches aren't following the teachings.

 

Trust me they are trying hard but it's not easy. Too many coaches and teams focus on winning not enough focus on actual development of players. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

3 grams difference between an old wet leather ball and modern footballs. Next to nothing.

 

 

The impact feels very different though. Modern balls have foam layer and no harsh leather exterior. It might not be much different in weight but the shock absorption feels far greater.

Edited by Bauld
Link to post
Share on other sites

Think anyone with a degree of common sense knows repeated blows to the head is not good for you. Doesn't need scientific research to come to that conclusion. Chris sutton is very wealthy, successful and famous person. One of his main weapons was how good he was In the air. So for him to come.on and say he wouldnt do it all again is utter bullshite. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Smith's right boot

Heading will be banned at some point. 

 

I'm not actually for it or against it but studies like this show that heading isn't safe. 

There will be more studies as well. 

 

Players themselves may even raise it. 

 

Now that it's known to cause this damage and if no one reacts, the legal part becomes far more open, so banning then becomes the only way forward as law suits will no doubt follow. 

 

Boxers get months between fights, players get days. Also the Likley header in training, so really no rest from constant brain trauma. Headers will be banned. 

 

Just a matter of time, imo. 

 

May make football more enjoyable in a different way. 

 

Protective head guards may become mandatory. 

Edited by Smith's right boot
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Bauld said:

 

The impact feels very different though. Modern balls have foam layer and no harsh leather exterior. It might not be much different in weight but the shock absorption feels far greater.

When dry the ball today is exactly the same weight as yesteryear.  The problem with the old ball was that it became more akin to a medicine ball in wet conditions.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, David McCaig said:

When dry the ball today is exactly the same weight as yesteryear.  The problem with the old ball was that it became more akin to a medicine ball in wet conditions.

 

Yes I agree. I experienced it. Went home after a game feeling like Fred Flintstone because your neck had been pushed into your chest. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Smith's right boot
5 minutes ago, David McCaig said:

When dry the ball today is exactly the same weight as yesteryear.  The problem with the old ball was that it became more akin to a medicine ball in wet conditions.

 

 

According to that report only a few grams difference, even when wet. 

 

I suppose heading 5kg of feathers would feel better than 5kg of stones, but the weight and impact on the brain is the same. 

 

Just less surface damage and pain..... private Piles scene also comes to mind. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Bauld said:

 

The SYFA is working hard to encourage coaches and teams to train players to take possession of the ball under pressure, have faith in themselves to dribble it more instead of pass, pass pass, hoof. They are trying to bring a more technical aspect to the game but too many coaches aren't following the teachings.

 

Trust me they are trying hard but it's not easy. Too many coaches and teams focus on winning not enough focus on actual development of players. 

 

Good to hear, hopefully the dinosaurs eventually will follow route or be replaced.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Ray Gin said:

 

Good to hear, hopefully the dinosaurs eventually will follow route or be replaced.

 

The old school can't go on forever but we need to make sure the new school, while rightly learning from the old school, don't carry on the bad habits and instead recognise where change has to happen.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Smith's right boot
16 minutes ago, Bauld said:

 

The SYFA is working hard to encourage coaches and teams to train players to take possession of the ball under pressure, have faith in themselves to dribble it more instead of pass, pass pass, hoof. They are trying to bring a more technical aspect to the game but too many coaches aren't following the teachings.

 

Trust me they are trying hard but it's not easy. Too many coaches and teams focus on winning not enough focus on actual development of players. 

 

Good to hear. 

 

But, the focus on winning still over rides everything else. 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

Protective head guards may become mandatory. 

 

Makes little difference. They only protect the outer skull and not the brain from sloshing around inside it from the impacts. (see American Football)

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Smith's right boot said:

 

Good to hear. 

 

But, the focus on winning still over rides everything else. 

 

 

 

 

Sadly this is still true, our club does not follow that mentality. Before every game the boys are told, win, lose or draw is not as important as the performance they put in as individuals and as a team. Focus on all the finer details and look to improve on them as you play.

 

We've won a few games this year and they have done really well. Their improvement as players has been phenomenal since I started with them.

Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Bauld said:

 

The impact feels very different though. Modern balls have foam layer and no harsh leather exterior. It might not be much different in weight but the shock absorption feels far greater.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4123437.stm


See the report. The shock absorption is almost identical. Both balls collapse down to about half their diamater on impact.

Link to post
Share on other sites

If you box, play rugby, surf, go mountain biking, skateboarding, whatever, there is a risk attached that you are going to get hurt or potentially even die.

 

So as long as people are aware of the risk, then it’s up to them whether they choose to participate. I don’t see any need for the game to change. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Cruyff Turn said:

If you box, play rugby, surf, go mountain biking, skateboarding, whatever, there is a risk attached that you are going to get hurt or potentially even die.

 

So as long as people are aware of the risk, then it’s up to them whether they choose to participate. I don’t see any need for the game to change. 

 

That may be true at adult level but I think we should protect the kids.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Bauld said:

 

That may be true at adult level but I think we should protect the kids.

We should maybe cut out heading in training. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Cruyff Turn said:

We should maybe cut out heading in training. 

 

 

Definitely. I have banned that for years and it hasn't had any impact on the boys willingness to do it in a game if needs must but it now means instead of heading a ball maybe up to 50 times or more a week they only do it once or twice in a whole game and sometimes the opportunity won't be there at all.

 

I think that is a huge difference.

Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Cruyff Turn said:

If you box, play rugby, surf, go mountain biking, skateboarding, whatever, there is a risk attached that you are going to get hurt or potentially even die.

 

So as long as people are aware of the risk, then it’s up to them whether they choose to participate. I don’t see any need for the game to change. 

 

The thing is that young kids are not really in a position to make a sensible decision on that, which is why banning it for under 12s is a good call.

 

If as adults they decide it's worth the risk, fair enough.

 

 

Edited by Ray Gin
Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

The thing is that young kids are not really in a position to make a sensible decision on that, which is why banning it for under 12s is a good call.

 

If as adults they decide it's worth the risk, fair enough.

 

 

And maybe the kids will stop the hoofball and get more skill with their feet

Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Bauld said:

 

 

Definitely. I have banned that for years and it hasn't had any impact on the boys willingness to do it in a game if needs must but it now means instead of heading a ball maybe up to 50 times or more a week they only do it once or twice in a whole game and sometimes the opportunity won't be there at all.

 

I think that is a huge difference.

 

13 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

The thing is that young kids are not really in a position to make a sensible decision on that, which is why banning it for under 12s is a good call.

 

If as adults they decide it's worth the risk, fair enough.

 

 

They don’t do much heading during games at u12 level anyway. So if it has benefits and doesn’t impact on the way the games played then it seems worth it. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Smith's right boot
2 hours ago, Ray Gin said:

 

Makes little difference. They only protect the outer skull and not the brain from sloshing around inside it from the impacts. (see American Football)

 

 

 

Yeah, thought that. 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

The answer in the long run is probably to find a cure in some way.

 

People box because they love boxing.

 

People play American football because they love it.

 

People play football because they love it.

 

Every time these people step into a ring, walk onto a pitch or take to the octagon for example they are doing what they love and they know there are risks. Not just risks of brain injury but risking other injuries that could leave them paralysed or some other sort or physical disability. People have known for a long, long time that boxing damages the brain. It hasn't stopped people from doing it. Poor guy died only recently from a severe brain injury sustained in the ring. 

 

Unless we ban these sports injuries to the brain and other parts of the body are always going to happen.

 

I agree with protecting the kids but eventually when these kids become adults and they can make their own choices they will be taking those risks knowing what could happen.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Its without a doubt an issue but it wouldnt stop me from heading the ball. 

 

Going up for corners was probably my favourite part about playing 11s when I was younger.

Link to post
Share on other sites
scott herbertson

was just about the only thing I was good at so i took every opportunity to go for headers, especially as a centre half. Most amateur games the centre halves had to go for nearly every goal kick, dropping from the sky.

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Bauld said:

The answer in the long run is probably to find a cure in some way.

 

People box because they love boxing.

 

People play American football because they love it.

 

People play football because they love it.

 

Every time these people step into a ring, walk onto a pitch or take to the octagon for example they are doing what they love and they know there are risks. Not just risks of brain injury but risking other injuries that could leave them paralysed or some other sort or physical disability. People have known for a long, long time that boxing damages the brain. It hasn't stopped people from doing it. Poor guy died only recently from a severe brain injury sustained in the ring. 

 

Unless we ban these sports injuries to the brain and other parts of the body are always going to happen.

 

I agree with protecting the kids but eventually when these kids become adults and they can make their own choices they will be taking those risks knowing what could happen.

 

There was news came out just last week that a phase 3 clinical trial of a drug designed to slow the progression of Alzheimer's produced a positive result. Although there is some scepticism about it, as it was based on a re-analysis of the data following an initially negative result.

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Bauld said:

 

The SYFA is working hard to encourage coaches and teams to train players to take possession of the ball under pressure, have faith in themselves to dribble it more instead of pass, pass pass, hoof. They are trying to bring a more technical aspect to the game but too many coaches aren't following the teachings.

 

Trust me they are trying hard but it's not easy. Too many coaches and teams focus on winning not enough focus on actual development of players. 

That's not happening at Hearts.....my grandson trains and plays with Hearts 2011 group.....gets told to pass ball quickly....prefer players to control the ball then quickly get rid of it....half the players struggle to control the ball and just hit it the way they are facing, not a pass more a get rid of the ball and dont get caught in possession....

Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, Walter Burns said:

That's not happening at Hearts.....my grandson trains and plays with Hearts 2011 group.....gets told to pass ball quickly....prefer players to control the ball then quickly get rid of it....half the players struggle to control the ball and just hit it the way they are facing, not a pass more a get rid of the ball and dont get caught in possession....

 

That's depressing to hear.

 

The SYFA coaches I have worked with, as recently as yesterday, are trying to adopt the continental approach of bringing up players who are comfortable taking a pass in under pressure from an opponent marking them and not just looking for someone in space, facing up their opponent and willing to then take them on. 

 

There is of course balance though, you still need to train them to be comfortable with being able to pass. It's a fundamental requirement of playing football.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Walter Burns said:

That's not happening at Hearts.....my grandson trains and plays with Hearts 2011 group.....gets told to pass ball quickly....prefer players to control the ball then quickly get rid of it....half the players struggle to control the ball and just hit it the way they are facing, not a pass more a get rid of the ball and dont get caught in possession....

That's bollocks. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • davemclaren changed the title to Dementia in football ( Gordon McQueen diagnosed )

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.



×
×
  • Create New...