Minimum Requirement

[jake]

For any manager at Hearts.

 

If it were a 3 year contract?

Europe 2 out of 3

2 cup finals

Always top 6

4 points in Glasgow

[Kiwidoug]

I'd settle for one cup final and consistent performances.  Otherwise, agree with you.

 

And as you say, that's the minimum.

[graygo]

1 hour ago, jake said:

For any manager at Hearts.

 

If it were a 3 year contract?

Europe 2 out of 3

2 cup finals

Always top 6

4 points in Glasgow

 

Absolute fantasy, we would have a new manager every 3 years with those as minimum requirements. Have we ever reached those heights?

[WheatfieldWarrior]

1 hour ago, jake said:

For any manager at Hearts.

 

If it were a 3 year contract?

Europe 2 out of 3

2 cup finals

Always top 6

4 points in Glasgow

 

How may seasons has that been achieved since 1874 ( serious question) allowing for say top 4 for years that predate European competitions?

[Boab]

4 points in Glasgow over three years seems about right !

🥴

[JamboGraham]

A nice idea but would you be happy with a list like this for your work? So little of it is in your control.

 

Europe 2 out of 3, Hearts aren’t involved in the vast majority of the matches played in the league. Therefore we have limited influence over the results and points totals of others. Better to set a points target for ourselves and if we meet it then good, if others earn more then not much we can do.

 

Two cup finals..would be great but if the club draw Celtic away (or let’s be honest Rangers or perhaps even Aberdeen) away in the early rounds is that failure by the manager? Is that any more of a failure compared to losing to Celtic in a final after early rounds versus lower league sides?

 

Always top six? Yes but see my first point. However the points target should be set at a level that historically secured (at least) top six.

 

4 points in Glasgow? Again set an overall points target, if points won in Glasgow help meet the target then great but 3 points won in Hamilton (for example) is worth the same as 3 in Glasgow..

 

Basically set your own points target and if you meet it then see what it gets you but nothing wrong with basing the target on historical averages for certain positions.

 

 

Edited September 5, 2019 by JamboGraham

[Agentjambo]

I'd be happy with football. 

[Cruyff Turn]

1 hour ago, jake said:

For any manager at Hearts.

 

If it were a 3 year contract?

Europe 2 out of 3

2 cup finals

Always top 6

4 points in Glasgow

2 cup finals in 3 years? Has that been a regular occurrence in the last 145 years? 

[Sagan]

I'd just be happy to see us play attacking football at the moment. 

It's not in the managers mindset though. 

It goes as far back as him playing no strikers with scotland and as recent as him saying that defending is a lot easier to sort out. That really ripped my knitten, all i wanted to do as a young boy playing football was score goals, Just like shankland.  The whole point of football is scoring goals. 

If you put that together with how we've played under him over the last 3 years (barring Naismith bailing him out)

He's done.

I'm starting to resent him. 

Hearts will always be my team, i don't support an english team or anyone else and never will, but he's ruining this for me now. 

 

And yeah, i will get stick for mentioning shankland haha. It's just a point. Not the player. 

Infact, naw, let's not beat about the bush. We should of signed shankland and anyone like him. 

 

 

Edited September 5, 2019 by Sagan

[Bazzas right boot]

1 hour ago, jake said:

For any manager at Hearts.

 

If it were a 3 year contract?

Europe 2 out of 3

2 cup finals

Always top 6

4 points in Glasgow

 

 

Not for me, but can see the thinking.  For example, what if we ended up 4th or even 5th, no points in Glasgow, but won a cup?

 

Min - should not be  getting put out the cup by anything other than a top 6 side. Not getting out the lc group stage is sackable imo ( but if in Europe not an issue). Any other cup targets imo are silly as it depends on the draw.

Europe- I agree but if we  were 4th by a point and never got in, is that worse than being 4th by a distance and getting in through  Celtic winning the cup? we should be top 4. We have no divine right to be above Aberdeen and even hibs should be around us given their resources. Finishing behind the likes of  Killie or St Johnstone shouldn't be happening tho.

Always top 6- yes, even with injuries or a transition period we shouldn't be below this.

 

**** 4 points in Glasgow, In theory if we beat the other teams 3/4 times an  and beat them at home we are champions,  league table is all that matters in regards to this.

 

I 'd also add in continuous improvement, even last season we did improve ever so slightly ( although not enough) , so even if we were 3rd the first season would 4th be ok the season after? or if we were a close 2nd in the first season , but ended up 3rd would a distance 3rd be ok the season after?

Continuous improvement is more important than hard targets set out imo.

 

 

[Bazzas right boot]

38 minutes ago, Kiwidoug said:

I'd settle for one cup final and consistent performances.  Otherwise, agree with you.

 

And as you say, that's the minimum.

 

We have that...…… we've been 6th twice, reached a final. that is very consistent. LC semi as well.

[Guest ToqueJambo]

1 hour ago, jake said:

For any manager at Hearts.

 

If it were a 3 year contract?

Europe 2 out of 3

2 cup finals

Always top 6

4 points in Glasgow

 

In the real world when have we ever been in Europe twice from every 3 years, even before it became harder to qualify! Although I agree we should be able to do it more often. Also, two cup finals in 3 years - how many have we been to in our history? Always top 6 is a given. That, one European place, ie 3rd, and one cup final and at least one other semi final would be a very, very good 3 year stretch. That's why 6th, a final and a semi final last season was actually an above average season all things considered. Nothing wrong with aiming high mind you.

[Bauld]

Over the next 3 years I want to see us consistently finishing in the top 4 and doing as well as we can in the cups.

 

Pushing beyond that as a minimum would be a very good season.

 

It would be nice to get into Europe and make the group stages of the Europa as well. Something which I think is very possible if you get a favourable draw in the qualifiers. You might get one tough side in the last qualifier but we should be easily getting passed the minnows.

[Boab]

22 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

In the real world when have we ever been in Europe twice from every 3 years, even before it became harder to qualify! Although I agree we should be able to do it more often. Also, two cup finals in 3 years - how many have we been to in our history? Always top 6 is a given. That, one European place, ie 3rd, and one cup final and at least one other semi final would be a very, very good 3 year stretch. That's why 6th, a final and a semi final last season was actually an above average season all things considered. Nothing wrong with aiming high mind you.

 In the last 36 years ( because it’s divisible by three...🥴), we’ve made Europe 16 times. So a good bit short of two from three.

Cup Final one is batshit mental....22 times in our history !

[OTT]

Anything that isn't 3rd is failure IMO. The budget is there, the facilities are there, the academy is there.

 

Yes, sometimes we might fall short, it happens. But that is finishing 4th.. just. 

 

The resources are there to succeed. 

[Big Slim Stylee]

3 hours ago, jake said:

For any manager at Hearts.

 

If it were a 3 year contract?

Europe 2 out of 3

2 cup finals

Always top 6

4 points in Glasgow

 

😀 Watched us long have you? I know you maybe have but minimum requirement??

Edited September 5, 2019 by Big Slim Stylee

[Smack]

1 hour ago, Boab said:

4 points in Glasgow over three years seems about right !

🥴

Relying heavily on Partick Thistle getting promotion. 

[Big Slim Stylee]

3 minutes ago, Smack said:

Relying heavily on Partick Thistle getting promotion. 

 

😀 Or Queens Park if we’re having a bad stretch below the minimum.

[jake]

6 minutes ago, Big Slim Stylee said:

 

😀 Watched us long have you? I know you maybe have but minimum requirement??

After 3 years yes.

I have not even stated winning a trophy.

I'm aware of our past and watched the last 40 plus years .

Europe means finishing top 4.

Two cup finals in 3 years out of a possible 6.

And 4 points in Glasgow is hardly setting the bar.

Finish bottom 6 and it's a fail.

If that's not met imo it's time to try something else.

[Big Slim Stylee]

18 minutes ago, jake said:

After 3 years yes.

I have not even stated winning a trophy.

I'm aware of our past and watched the last 40 plus years .

Europe means finishing top 4.

Two cup finals in 3 years out of a possible 6.

And 4 points in Glasgow is hardly setting the bar.

Finish bottom 6 and it's a fail.

If that's not met imo it's time to try something else.

 

I wish you well mate, but in the words of John Cleese from that film Clockwise:  “ It’s not the despair. I can take the despair. It’s the hope I can’t stand.”

 

Thats your average Hearts fan.

Edited September 5, 2019 by Big Slim Stylee

[Debut 4]

2 hours ago, graygo said:

 

Absolute fantasy, we would have a new manager every 3 years with those as minimum requirements. Have we ever reached those heights?

From 84-85 until admin we got to Europe 15 times. Almost every 2nd season.  

[Debut 4]

1 hour ago, OTT said:

Anything that isn't 3rd is failure IMO. The budget is there, the facilities are there, the academy is there.

 

Yes, sometimes we might fall short, it happens. But that is finishing 4th.. just. 

 

The resources are there to succeed. 

Interesting point.

 

If the Old Firm’s resources leave the rest of us trailing(they actually make them do so), should we not expect the same at our level v the rest?  Should we have finished 5,6,6 in the last 3 seasons?

 

It’s maybe not quite as simple as that but it only goes to show there is something fundamentally wrong with who’s getting to use the resources. You can have the money but you still need the personnel. 

 

Hearts largely positioned themselves as the strongest outside the OF for the best part of 25 years before administration but that reputation is slowly diminishing with every season just now.

 

 

[i8hibsh]

Win the league.

 

Why the **** would you employ someone who did not see this as possible?

 

I am ****ing sick if losing!

Edited September 5, 2019 by i8hibsh

[Kiwidoug]

2 hours ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

We have that...…… we've been 6th twice, reached a final. that is very consistent. LC semi as well.

I'm sure you know what I mean by consistent.  Playing consistently well.  Swashbuckling.  Not the consistent tripe we've seen over the last 3 seasons.

 

I think we have the squad to do that this season even with levein providing the players are motivated and the injury toll eases significantly.

 

All the reports I've read of the RC and Hamilton games make we wonder if the players are motivated.

[Big Slim Stylee]

21 minutes ago, Debut 4 said:

Interesting point.

 

If the Old Firm’s resources leave the rest of us trailing(they actually make them do so), should we not expect the same at our level v the rest?  Should we have finished 5,6,6 in the last 3 seasons?

 

It’s maybe not quite as simple as that but it only goes to show there is something fundamentally wrong with who’s getting to use the resources. You can have the money but you still need the personnel. 

 

Hearts largely positioned themselves as the strongest outside the OF for the best part of 25 years before administration but that reputation is slowly diminishing with every season just now.

 

 

 

It’s only just, tbh. It’s more the Club that has said that since Mercer’s day. We always try to compete to be best of the rest. But that’s our lot really.🙁

[Boab]

9 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

Win the league.

 

Why the **** would you employ someone who did not see this as possible?

 

I am ****ing sick if losing!

 

Imagine you actually went to games !

It would be projectile vomit all over the shop !

[i8hibsh]

2 minutes ago, Boab said:

 

Imagine you actually went to games !

It would be projectile vomit all over the shop !

 

 

I've been to more games than half this forum probably.

[Boab]

20 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

 

 

I've been to more games than half this forum probably.

 Quite possibly, mate.

Just yanking yer chain a bit.

[Bazzas right boot]

1 hour ago, Debut 4 said:

Interesting point.

 

If the Old Firm’s resources leave the rest of us trailing(they actually make them do so), should we not expect the same at our level v the rest?  Should we have finished 5,6,6 in the last 3 seasons?

 

It’s maybe not quite as simple as that but it only goes to show there is something fundamentally wrong with who’s getting to use the resources. You can have the money but you still need the personnel. 

 

Hearts largely positioned themselves as the strongest outside the OF for the best part of 25 years before administration but that reputation is slowly diminishing with every season just now.

 

 

👍

[The Treasurer]

10 hours ago, Debut 4 said:

Interesting point.

 

If the Old Firm’s resources leave the rest of us trailing(they actually make them do so), should we not expect the same at our level v the rest?  Should we have finished 5,6,6 in the last 3 seasons?

 

It’s maybe not quite as simple as that but it only goes to show there is something fundamentally wrong with who’s getting to use the resources. You can have the money but you still need the personnel. 

 

Hearts largely positioned themselves as the strongest outside the OF for the best part of 25 years before administration but that reputation is slowly diminishing with every season just now.

 

 

 

Yes we have bigger resources than most in the league but the gap in finance between us and say, Motherwell, is nowhere near the gap between us and sellik.

[FTH]

12 hours ago, JamboGraham said:

Always top six? Yes but see my first point. However the points target should be set at a level that historically secured (at least) top six.

 

With the budget we have there should not be 6 teams in the league able to amass a higher points total than us. It doesn't matter if we have no affect on the other results! Being "top 6" shouldn't even have to be mentioned as a "target".

[Kiwidoug]

40 minutes ago, FTH said:

 

With the budget we have there should not be 6 teams in the league able to amass a higher points total than us. It doesn't matter if we have no affect on the other results! Being "top 6" shouldn't even have to be mentioned as a "target".

100%

[The Gorgie]

Its what we do when we get to Europe that matters. If we finished 3rd just to be embarrassed by malta shop keepers then whats the point!

[Boab]

Just now, TheStig said:

Its what we do when we get to Europe that matters. If we finished 3rd just to be embarrassed by malta shop keepers then whats the point!

 The whole point of getting back on that stage is to exorcise those demons.

Contentment with the LC Group Stage, because we fear we might not get far in the EL is bonkers, imo.

[EH23-Jambo]

If it were a 3 year contract? More realistic:

Europe 1 out of 3

1 cup final in 3

Always top 6

2 to 4 points in Glasgow

[maroonshrew]

18 hours ago, jake said:

For any manager at Hearts.

 

If it were a 3 year contract?

Europe 2 out of 3

2 cup finals

Always top 6

4 points in Glasgow

I think this is very telling of our fanbase's expectations and the difficulty any Heart managers faces. We expect to win every game other than maybe Celtic/Rangers away from home. 

 

A lot of our fans minimum acceptable results are of a standard never achieved in our history. 

 

This is an aside to the current manager whose form is undoubtedly appalling but how many good managers have we turned on in the past as a result of falling short of ridiculous self imposed minimum standards? 

[JamboGraham]

5 hours ago, FTH said:

 

With the budget we have there should not be 6 teams in the league able to amass a higher points total than us. It doesn't matter if we have no affect on the other results! Being "top 6" shouldn't even have to be mentioned as a "target".

 

It was the OP that had top 6 as a target, not me.

 

For what it's worth I personally see top 6 as a redline for our club, not a target. 

 

My point still stands though, you set a points goal for the club that you believe is reasonable for the investment level and quality in the squad. If you meet that and 6 other sides manage to record a higher points total is that failure by the manager? (I appreciate we are very much in the land of hypothetical here as the average points for top 6, 3rd, etc. in the top league in Scotland are actually quite static so targets are fairly easy to set).

 

For what its worth we know that the Aberdeen manager has an internal target of 70 points (he failed last season). Historically (2000 to admin) ours was probably somewhere about 60 points (this was generally always good enough for 3rd place, or right in the hunt) but in more recent seasons you are looking around 67-70 points for 3rd place.

 

My own target for Hearts in recent seasons (since we have had the 5 'big' clubs back in the top flight) is 64 points. This is a total we have been woefully short of for the past 3 seasons.

Edited September 6, 2019 by JamboGraham

[i8hibsh]

4 hours ago, FTH said:

 

With the budget we have there should not be 6 teams in the league able to amass a higher points total than us. It doesn't matter if we have no affect on the other results! Being "top 6" shouldn't even have to be mentioned as a "target".

 

 

 

[Cade]

Yoru batshit crazy "minimum requirements or sacked" describes more or less our best seasons in living memory ya bam.

 

 

[Bungalow Bill]

For me it’s:

- come out on top in the derbies

- a semi final

- top 4 in the league

 

The above should be happening every year for me. 

[jake]

6 hours ago, EH22-Jambo said:

If it were a 3 year contract? More realistic:

Europe 1 out of 3

1 cup final in 3

Always top 6

2 to 4 points in Glasgow

Not far from me

2 hours ago, Apache Mal said:

For me it’s:

- come out on top in the derbies

- a semi final

- top 4 in the league

 

The above should be happening every year for me. 

We are spoiled when it comes to derbies

2 hours ago, Cade said:

Yoru batshit crazy "minimum requirements or sacked" describes more or less our best seasons in living memory ya bam.

 

 

It's not that bad Cade.

😄

[jake]

4 hours ago, JamboGraham said:

 

It was the OP that had top 6 as a target, not me.

 

For what it's worth I personally see top 6 as a redline for our club, not a target. 

That's what I said

 

My point still stands though, you set a points goal for the club that you believe is reasonable for the investment level and quality in the squad. If you meet that and 6 other sides manage to record a higher points total is that failure by the manager? (I appreciate we are very much in the land of hypothetical here as the average points for top 6, 3rd, etc. in the top league in Scotland are actually quite static so targets are fairly easy to set).

You can also set targets for a manager over 3 years.

 

Quote

For what its worth we know that the Aberdeen manager has an internal target of 70 points (he failed last season). Historically (2000 to admin) ours was probably somewhere about 60 points (this was generally always good enough for 3rd place, or right in the hunt) but in more recent seasons you are looking around 67-70 points for 3rd place.

 

My own target for Hearts in recent seasons (since we have had the 5 'big' clubs back in the top flight) is 64 points. This is a total we have been woefully short of for the past 3 seasons.

Mucked that up.

 

I agree about the redline.

 

Also a new manager should be given targets and the ones in my op are reasonable I think.

Edited September 6, 2019 by jake

[Paul Shark]

23 hours ago, jake said:

For any manager at Hearts.

 

If it were a 3 year contract?

Europe 2 out of 3

2 cup finals

Always top 6

4 points in Glasgow

When was this ? Last one yes back when Partick and Clyde(were still in Glasgow)in the same league as us. 

[Sexton Hardcastle]

Cringy stuff.

 

Next it will be scoring ten goals a game. Playing possession football but having the wheatfield boo it as it’s not direct football.

[jake]

1 minute ago, Paul Shark said:

When was this ? Last one yes back when Partick and Clyde(were still in Glasgow)in the same league as us. 

Over a 3 year contract you think asking for 4 points  isn't justifiable ?

[jake]

1 minute ago, Sexton Hardcastle said:

Cringy stuff.

 

Next it will be scoring ten goals a game. Playing possession football but having the wheatfield boo it as it’s not direct football.

Cringey?

 

Ok .

I have been watching Hearts for 40 plus years now.

 

I think there should be targets that should be met.

And yes the football should be pleasing to the eye.

 

 

[Sexton Hardcastle]

6 minutes ago, jake said:

Cringey?

 

Ok .

I have been watching Hearts for 40 plus years now.

 

I think there should be targets that should be met.

And yes the football should be pleasing to the eye.

 

 

Seems all very plastic EPL/Man Utd fan boy stuff.

 

Demanding this that and the other. 

 

Teams have slumps. It’s natural. It’s shit but it’s natural.

[jake]

12 minutes ago, Sexton Hardcastle said:

Seems all very plastic EPL/Man Utd fan boy stuff.

 

 

Please dont hold back.

😄

[Paul Shark]

55 minutes ago, jake said:

Over a 3 year contract you think asking for 4 points  isn't justifiable ?

4 points over 3 years is probably fair enough. What's your criteria regarding Hibs ?

[jake]

2 minutes ago, Paul Shark said:

4 points over 3 years is probably fair enough. What's your criteria regarding Hibs ?

We have been spoiled in my lifetime.

So it's easy to think it will always be that way.

I want that mentality in every game.

I really didnt think or still dont my minimum is way out.