eyesandears Posted October 6, 2020 Share Posted October 6, 2020 (edited) On 05/10/2020 at 16:33, Footballfirst said: There haven't been many updates lately. However, another 42,250,000 shares were issued in RIFC on 30 September @20p a share, raising £8,450,000 Don't know who has bought them yet. The new shares represent approx 14% of the total shares now issued. https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/SC437060/filing-history I wonder if the £8 million raised and paid before or on 30th September has been an essential injection of cash to pay the September wages and any tax bills due given that no-one has offered anything near the £20m they sought for the chubby Colombian. Edited October 6, 2020 by eyesandears figure correction Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 Media catching up. Main new investment is from Asian based Stuart Gibson. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/54487126 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deevers Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 46 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said: Media catching up. Main new investment is from Asian based Stuart Gibson. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/54487126 Interesting. Pays their bills for a wee while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysterion Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 Covers the losses they made last year. This years accounts will be interesting - they might get close to break even despite player spend. Their increased commercial deals and Uefa run will have benefitted them greatly. I understand they have also asked corporate hospitality customers who are missing out to look on their payment as a donation and not to request refunds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex member of the SaS Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 Is the share issue amount not exactly what they are owe the Lying King. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted November 11, 2020 Share Posted November 11, 2020 (edited) There were a couple of court hearings today, one at the Court of Session and the other at the Royal Courts of Justice in London. At the court of Session, Charles Green appears to have been successful in his claim for malicious prosecution, so should receive damages from the Lord Advocate and/or Police Scotland. He has asked for £20m. He is the latest one of the seven originally arrested on conspiracy charges to get an apology from the Lord Advocate. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-54907234 The RCJ hearing goes back to the claim the Sports Direct had made against TRFC. The hearing was an appeal against a judgement made by Lionel Persey in January (this has never been published to my knowledge). It could be that an element of that judgement allowed TRFC to negotiate their new kit deal with Castore. Before LORD JUSTICE UNDERHILL Vice President of the Court of Appeal, Civil Division LORD JUSTICE BAKER and LORD JUSTICE PHILLIPS Wednesday, 11th November, 2020 At half-past 10 TO BE HEARD REMOTELY APPEAL From The Queen's Bench Division (Commercial) FINAL DECISIONS A4/2020/0329 SDI Retail Services Limited -v- The Rangers Football Club Limited. Appeal of Claimant from the order of Lionel Persey QC, dated 29th January 2020, filed 19th February 2020. Edited November 11, 2020 by Footballfirst Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indianajones Posted November 11, 2020 Share Posted November 11, 2020 in an ideal world sevco stop 9.75 in a row then go bust. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Dan Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 Mendacious Dave has sold his shares. https://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/rangers/huge-rangers-news-dave-king-agrees-sell-shares-fan-group-loss-3054266 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDK2020 Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 What could possibly go wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William H. Bonney Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 1 hour ago, JDK2020 said: What could possibly go wrong? Hopefully everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackLadd Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 King desperate for cash back on his holding before the financial meltdown and transferring debt to this fans group on 'generous loan terms'. Stiffing them royally for worthless confetti. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NANOJAMBO Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 2 hours ago, Boy Daniel said: Mendacious Dave has sold his shares. https://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/rangers/huge-rangers-news-dave-king-agrees-sell-shares-fan-group-loss-3054266 That article - Jeeze- King is selling the shares at the price he bought them for, according to the Hootsmon. And even then , there's no quote saying what the selling price is. I didn't realise voting on line from your S African mansion was such a challenge . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilson Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 I'm no financial guru, but how can King's shares be worth 20p( as at purchase apparently) when the shareholding has been diluted umpteen times, and the losses mount up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seymour M Hersh Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 1 minute ago, Wilson said: I'm no financial guru, but how can King's shares be worth 20p( as at purchase apparently) when the shareholding has been diluted umpteen times, and the losses mount up? I guess it's what someone is willing to pay for them as they're not on any stock exchange. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seymour M Hersh Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 Wouldn't be hilarious if Mk II were cruising the league only to go into administration and have 25 points (2nd time if they are still saying they are the same team) to lose the league to the other cheek by a point. I think Glasgow might fracture away from the mainland float out into the Atlantic and sink. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Dan Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 37 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said: That article - Jeeze- King is selling the shares at the price he bought them for, according to the Hootsmon. And even then , there's no quote saying what the selling price is. I didn't realise voting on line from your S African mansion was such a challenge . He's spat the dummy no doubt or sickened himself with all the court cases he has fought over the past few years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackLadd Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 1 minute ago, Seymour M Hersh said: I guess it's what someone is willing to pay for them as they're not on any stock exchange. They were trading at sub 20p when still listed on AIM. That was when the issued cap was 31m, now 82m ord shares. If they were still on AIM we can only guess at the price. Nowhere near 20p anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 (edited) 24 minutes ago, JackLadd said: They were trading at sub 20p when still listed on AIM. That was when the issued cap was 31m, now 82m ord shares. If they were still on AIM we can only guess at the price. Nowhere near 20p anyway. There are now 327m shares. At 20p a share that works out at £65m capital value. Celtic has a £100m market capitalisation. All King's 66.67m shares were bought at 20p a share, so at break even he gets £13.33m back. He claims to have put £40m into the club in total. £20m of that was invested in the Oldco back in 2000 and was lost when the Oldco went into liquidation. Of the more recent £20m, he was paid back around £1.3m of a loan a couple of months ago, but still has a £5m loan outstanding (earning 8% interest). So £13.33m + £1.3m + £5m has been his "investment" in the Newco. Any additional costs would have been incurred by King in legal fees when he lost his battle with the Takeover Panel. I've seen reports that Club 1872 has three years to come up with the cash. Over the last 5 years they have bought shares for £1.5m. I imagine that they won't have much more than £1m in free cash at the moment. A dilemma that Club 1872 faces is that their cash won't be going into the club, but into King's pocket. Edited December 1, 2020 by Footballfirst Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackLadd Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 2 minutes ago, Footballfirst said: There are now 327m shares. At 20p a share that works out at £65m capital value. Celtic has a £100m market capitalisation. All King's 66.67m shares were bought at 20p a share, so at break even he gets £13.33m back. He claims to have put £40m into the club in total. £20m of that was invested in the Oldco back in 2000 and was lost when the Oldco went into liquidation. Of the more recent £20m, he was paid back around £1.3m of a loan a couple of months ago, but still has a £5m loan outstanding (earning 8% interest). So £13.33m + £1.3m + £5m has been his "investment" in the Newco. Any additional costs would have been incurred by King in legal fees when he lost his battle with the Takeover Panel. Totally effed that one up.🤣 So 20p values going concern warning Sevco at £65m on the current cap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo-Fox Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 12 minutes ago, Footballfirst said: There are now 327m shares. At 20p a share that works out at £65m capital value. Celtic has a £100m market capitalisation. All King's 66.67m shares were bought at 20p a share, so at break even he gets £13.33m back. He claims to have put £40m into the club in total. £20m of that was invested in the Oldco back in 2000 and was lost when the Oldco went into liquidation. Of the more recent £20m, he was paid back around £1.3m of a loan a couple of months ago, but still has a £5m loan outstanding (earning 8% interest). So £13.33m + £1.3m + £5m has been his "investment" in the Newco. Any additional costs would have been incurred by King in legal fees when he lost his battle with the Takeover Panel. I've seen reports that Club 1872 has three years to come up with the cash. Over the last 5 years they have bought shares for £1.5m. I imagine that they won't have much more than £1m in free cash at the moment. A dilemma that Club 1872 faces is that their cash won't be going into the club, but into King's pocket. Good update! If 1872 wanted to help the club they would be better buying ‘new issue shares’. However they’ve not done that (or been allowed to) recently when new capital has been raised so their holding has been diluted. The whole thing (Sevco, King, 1872) stinks ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruickie's Moustache Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 33 minutes ago, Footballfirst said: There are now 327m shares. At 20p a share that works out at £65m capital value. Celtic has a £100m market capitalisation. All King's 66.67m shares were bought at 20p a share, so at break even he gets £13.33m back. He claims to have put £40m into the club in total. £20m of that was invested in the Oldco back in 2000 and was lost when the Oldco went into liquidation. Of the more recent £20m, he was paid back around £1.3m of a loan a couple of months ago, but still has a £5m loan outstanding (earning 8% interest). So £13.33m + £1.3m + £5m has been his "investment" in the Newco. Any additional costs would have been incurred by King in legal fees when he lost his battle with the Takeover Panel. I've seen reports that Club 1872 has three years to come up with the cash. Over the last 5 years they have bought shares for £1.5m. I imagine that they won't have much more than £1m in free cash at the moment. A dilemma that Club 1872 faces is that their cash won't be going into the club, but into King's pocket. Don't have time at this late hour to do the calcs but for the figures being used it makes the Bidco / FoH arrangement look like deal of the century. Circa £13m for only around a quarter of the current share ownership!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysterion Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 1 hour ago, Footballfirst said: I've seen reports that Club 1872 has three years to come up with the cash. Over the last 5 years they have bought shares for £1.5m. I imagine that they won't have much more than £1m in free cash at the moment. A dilemma that Club 1872 faces is that their cash won't be going into the club, but into King's pocket. Noting papers are reporting they get a discount if they come up with the money in 1yr. I don't think they'll get their ideal 20k of supporters to chip in £18.72 a month but i do think they will make good progress towards it if they can spin the positivity (especially when they are top of the league). I read somewhere that Club 1872 still has Chris Graham involved and that they have failed repeatedly to speak out against the board. It sounds like another Rangers organisation run by people in it for the hospitality access and ego trip. I guess the devil will be in the detail for this - the most obvious thing being that Club1872 will not want to authorise the allocation of new shares if it dilutes their holding. This may become a problem if they can't secure debt for equity swaps or loans to cover their losses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobNox Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 3 hours ago, Footballfirst said: There are now 327m shares. At 20p a share that works out at £65m capital value. Celtic has a £100m market capitalisation. All King's 66.67m shares were bought at 20p a share, so at break even he gets £13.33m back. He claims to have put £40m into the club in total. £20m of that was invested in the Oldco back in 2000 and was lost when the Oldco went into liquidation. Of the more recent £20m, he was paid back around £1.3m of a loan a couple of months ago, but still has a £5m loan outstanding (earning 8% interest). So £13.33m + £1.3m + £5m has been his "investment" in the Newco. Any additional costs would have been incurred by King in legal fees when he lost his battle with the Takeover Panel. I've seen reports that Club 1872 has three years to come up with the cash. Over the last 5 years they have bought shares for £1.5m. I imagine that they won't have much more than £1m in free cash at the moment. A dilemma that Club 1872 faces is that their cash won't be going into the club, but into King's pocket. In the BBC article I saw, Dave King was claiming the the shares were worth 50p, that would value Rangers at over £160m, which is clearly ridiculous. Celtic's market capitalisation includes cash in the bank, Rangers have no cash in the bank and indeed have debts and contingent liabilities. I'm no expert, but I know you like to delve into the finances of football clubs. Would you value Rangers shares at 20p? My gut feel is that the shares are worth nowhere near that, but as I say, I'm no expert. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 5 hours ago, RobNox said: In the BBC article I saw, Dave King was claiming the the shares were worth 50p, that would value Rangers at over £160m, which is clearly ridiculous. Celtic's market capitalisation includes cash in the bank, Rangers have no cash in the bank and indeed have debts and contingent liabilities. I'm no expert, but I know you like to delve into the finances of football clubs. Would you value Rangers shares at 20p? My gut feel is that the shares are worth nowhere near that, but as I say, I'm no expert. I've read Kevin Maguires book on the Price of Football which gives alternative ways of calculating the value of a club. There is no definitive measure which is appropriate. some examples: Balance sheet value (net assets) which in RIFC's case is £31.7m Stock market value - N/A but if you used the 20p share price then you would get £65.4m Comparative sales values - N/A as there are no similar sales to compare against. In England they have typically ranged between 1.5 and 2 times revenue which would be between £88.5m and £118m. Discounted Cash Flow - calculating this is beyond my ken as a non accountant The Markham Multivariate Model - This is a formula based calculation of (Revenue+ Net Assets) x ((Net Profit + Revenue) /Revenue) x (Stadium Capacity%/Wage Ratio) so (59+31.7) x ((-17.5+59)/59) x (95%/74%) which by my calculations is £82.3m So there you have it, anything from £31.7m to £118m Hearts Balance Sheet value would be £17.95m Comparative sales values (1.5 to 2 times revenue) would be £18.4m to £25.4m Hearts MMM figures would be (12.27+17.95) x ((0.47+12.27)/12.27) x (80%(?)/71.55%) which would work out at £35m. So take your pick. Note that these figures were based on the Covid affected accounts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboAl Posted December 2, 2020 Author Share Posted December 2, 2020 1 hour ago, Footballfirst said: I've read Kevin Maguires book on the Price of Football which gives alternative ways of calculating the value of a club. There is no definitive measure which is appropriate. some examples: Balance sheet value (net assets) which in RIFC's case is £31.7m Stock market value - N/A but if you used the 20p share price then you would get £65.4m Comparative sales values - N/A as there are no similar sales to compare against. In England they have typically ranged between 1.5 and 2 times revenue which would be between £88.5m and £118m. Discounted Cash Flow - calculating this is beyond my ken as a non accountant The Markham Multivariate Model - This is a formula based calculation of (Revenue+ Net Assets) x ((Net Profit + Revenue) /Revenue) x (Stadium Capacity%/Wage Ratio) so (59+31.7) x ((-17.5+59)/59) x (95%/74%) which by my calculations is £82.3m So there you have it, anything from £31.7m to £118m Hearts Balance Sheet value would be £17.95m Comparative sales values (1.5 to 2 times revenue) would be £18.4m to £25.4m Hearts MMM figures would be (12.27+17.95) x ((0.47+12.27)/12.27) x (80%(?)/71.55%) which would work out at £35m. So take your pick. Note that these figures were based on the Covid affected accounts. These are interesting formulae but in the final analysis a club is only worth what someone is willing to pay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deevers Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 7 hours ago, RobNox said: In the BBC article I saw, Dave King was claiming the the shares were worth 50p, that would value Rangers at over £160m, which is clearly ridiculous. Celtic's market capitalisation includes cash in the bank, Rangers have no cash in the bank and indeed have debts and contingent liabilities. I'm no expert, but I know you like to delve into the finances of football clubs. Would you value Rangers shares at 20p? My gut feel is that the shares are worth nowhere near that, but as I say, I'm no expert. King’s no mug. He’ll be delighted to get his money back or was it his children’s inheritance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex member of the SaS Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 12 hours ago, Seymour M Hersh said: Wouldn't be hilarious if Mk II were cruising the league only to go into administration and have 25 points (2nd time if they are still saying they are the same team) to lose the league to the other cheek by a point. I think Glasgow might fracture away from the mainland float out into the Atlantic and sink. NOOOOO! As much as I hate both ars cheeks It would be far better if Sevco went buts with a points deduction and won the league but 1 point. That way Celtic don't get 10 in a row and Sevco are gone for good. IF Celtic win 10 in a row we will never hear the end of it. Far better they didn't win it at ( almost ) any cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pans Jambo Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 3 minutes ago, Ex member of the SaS said: NOOOOO! As much as I hate both ars cheeks It would be far better if Sevco went buts with a points deduction and won the league but 1 point. That way Celtic don't get 10 in a row and Sevco are gone for good. IF Celtic win 10 in a row we will never hear the end of it. Far better they didn't win it at ( almost ) any cost. I hate the rangers but I would rather the Sultan of Brunei bought them, built them a gold plated 80,000 seated stadium and had Messi as their first signing than allow septic to win 10 in a row. They will bleat about that for the next 50 years!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex member of the SaS Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 Got to love the reporting that they now become ( after they by The Lying King's shares ) the biggest share holders. If new shares have been sold then that calc is why off surely. Either way they are basically buying toilet paper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadj Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 12 hours ago, Seymour M Hersh said: Wouldn't be hilarious if Mk II were cruising the league only to go into administration and have 25 points (2nd time if they are still saying they are the same team) to lose the league to the other cheek by a point. I think Glasgow might fracture away from the mainland float out into the Atlantic and sink. We can but hope Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 11 minutes ago, Ex member of the SaS said: Got to love the reporting that they now become ( after they by The Lying King's shares ) the biggest share holders. If new shares have been sold then that calc is why off surely. Either way they are basically buying toilet paper. Current major holdings New Oasis Asset Limited, 66,672,893, 20.37% Douglas Park, 40,000,000, 12.22% George Alexander Taylor, 31,574,998, 9.65% Stuart Gibson, 25,000,000, 7.64% Borita Investments Limited, 23,611,955, 7.22% Club 1872, 16,202,838, 4.95% John Bennett 15,800,000 4.83% Barry Scott, 15,145,000, 4.63% George Letham,14,774,516, 4.519% Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spellczech Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 On 05/10/2020 at 16:33, Footballfirst said: There haven't been many updates lately. However, another 42,250,000 shares were issued in RIFC on 30 September @20p a share, raising £8,450,000 Don't know who has bought them yet. The new shares represent approx 14% of the total shares now issued. https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/SC437060/filing-history Amazing how they keep issuing shares the value still remains at 20p! Haha It's like printing money! As long as some mug is willing to hand over real money for them...This is a better wheeze than Bitcoin! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
132goals1958 Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 17 minutes ago, Spellczech said: Amazing how they keep issuing shares the value still remains at 20p! Haha It's like printing money! As long as some mug is willing to hand over real money for them...This is a better wheeze than Bitcoin! They must have a humongous balance in their share premium account. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seymour M Hersh Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 1 hour ago, Ex member of the SaS said: NOOOOO! As much as I hate both ars cheeks It would be far better if Sevco went buts with a points deduction and won the league but 1 point. That way Celtic don't get 10 in a row and Sevco are gone for good. IF Celtic win 10 in a row we will never hear the end of it. Far better they didn't win it at ( almost ) any cost. I like your thinking there. But as for never hearing the end of it outside of the arse cheeks and the weejie media does anyone really give a **** about 9, 10 or 20 in a row? The league has been bent in their favour for so long I think fans outside of the bigot bubble are immune to their pish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spellczech Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 20 minutes ago, 132goals1958 said: They must have a humongous balance in their share premium account. Indeed but that it is all rather meaningless, as all it means is that the owners are funding the business via shares because they still have no access to other means. I don't know how wealthy people like Letham are but it must be a tricky decision every season as to whether to pump more money in to maintain your % or just allow it to be diluted...Especially as (and I haven't really been keeping an eye on them recently) King was making noises about exiting...If he is the first large investor to exit he will undoubtedly get the best price from whomsoever buys his shares (fans?). Rangers once again look like a very expensive vanity project for the directors to rock up to on a Saturday... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 One line in the RIFC accounts that went largely unnoticed was that RIFC wrote down the value of their equity investment by £30m. That should be taken as an indication of a more realistic value of TRFC being taken either by the RIFC Board or their auditors "The Parent Company is exempt from disclosing a company-only income statement. Its loss for the year was £30,229,000 (2019 - £1,601,000)." The write off is reflected in the "Total Equity" figure which is £37m, down from £53m in 2019, but would have gone up to £67m without the write down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
132goals1958 Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 15 minutes ago, Spellczech said: Indeed but that it is all rather meaningless, as all it means is that the owners are funding the business via shares because they still have no access to other means. I don't know how wealthy people like Letham are but it must be a tricky decision every season as to whether to pump more money in to maintain your % or just allow it to be diluted...Especially as (and I haven't really been keeping an eye on them recently) King was making noises about exiting...If he is the first large investor to exit he will undoubtedly get the best price from whomsoever buys his shares (fans?). Rangers once again look like a very expensive vanity project for the directors to rock up to on a Saturday... Yeah that,s what I was alluding to. Whenever the Balance sheet needs bolstered to fund on -going losses they seem to be able to conjure up equity and loans. Their European success has also helped and it seems they are able to generate a rescue package as and when they wish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
132goals1958 Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 13 minutes ago, Footballfirst said: One line in the RIFC accounts that went largely unnoticed was that RIFC wrote down the value of their equity investment by £30m. That should be taken as an indication of a more realistic value of TRFC being taken either by the RIFC Board or their auditors "The Parent Company is exempt from disclosing a company-only income statement. Its loss for the year was £30,229,000 (2019 - £1,601,000)." The write off is reflected in the "Total Equity" figure which is £37m, down from £53m in 2019, but would have gone up to £67m without the write down. Would be reasonable to assume their net worth was artificially inflated😀 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hagar the Horrible Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 13 minutes ago, Footballfirst said: One line in the RIFC accounts that went largely unnoticed was that RIFC wrote down the value of their equity investment by £30m. That should be taken as an indication of a more realistic value of TRFC being taken either by the RIFC Board or their auditors "The Parent Company is exempt from disclosing a company-only income statement. Its loss for the year was £30,229,000 (2019 - £1,601,000)." The write off is reflected in the "Total Equity" figure which is £37m, down from £53m in 2019, but would have gone up to £67m without the write down. Trying some quick fag packets maths here but can you explain these? King wants to sell his 20% stake at 20p per share. that will give to him not the club £13.3m...,reported He bought all his shares @23.7p per share, so his spin is he is making a loss. But what I am asking is something you reported before is that over the last 5 years some debt for equity has been converted into shares, thats evey year for 5 years, does that not make the shares actualy worth 4p after diluition? So is he not selling penny shares worth 4p for 20p so is he lying about 23.7p? and finally will that not eat into the pockets of where the the £20m needs to come from to get to the end of season 21/22? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spellczech Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 7 minutes ago, 132goals1958 said: Would be reasonable to assume their net worth was artificially inflated😀 Perhaps by making the write down they will have losses to carry forward and thus any profit they make in any of the next few years ie due to European success or player sales, won't result in having to pay CT. It would perhaps also be useful for their personal taxes to have investment losses? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hagar the Horrible Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 another question is if King is selling his 20% for £13.3m , he is valuing the club at £66.5m thats a club that has their training facility held by Sports Scotland, and pretty much everything else by Close brothers. History will tell us thet in 2006 SDM tried to do a share issue and ended up selling 1/3rd of MIM to finance that deal and ended up with extra shares he was trying to get rid of? If this was Dragons Den rather than Bearsden I would be saying...Im out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Hagar the Horrible said: Trying some quick fag packets maths here but can you explain these? King wants to sell his 20% stake at 20p per share. that will give to him not the club £13.3m...,reported He bought all his shares @23.7p per share, so his spin is he is making a loss. But what I am asking is something you reported before is that over the last 5 years some debt for equity has been converted into shares, thats evey year for 5 years, does that not make the shares actualy worth 4p after diluition? So is he not selling penny shares worth 4p for 20p so is he lying about 23.7p? and finally will that not eat into the pockets of where the the £20m needs to come from to get to the end of season 21/22? King's initial purchase of shares was in January 2015 when he acquired 11.9m shares from existing shareholders Artemis and Miton. That purchase was at 20.1p a share although it was widely reported as being 20p. All his subsequent shares have come from DFE swaps (conversion of loans) at 20p a share. The dilution you describe does not necessarily occur. If a company simply issues more shares with nothing in return, then yes, the value of the company will stay the same and the value of individual shares will drop proportionately. If however if the cash (originally in the form of loans) is used to purchase assets, then the value of the company will go up by that amount, but maintain the monetary value of the shares. Rangers have speculated to accumulate. There is no question about that. However, there is a strong argument that they have spent well in recent years in the transfer market and the asset value of their squad has increased considerably, e.g. Tavernier, Morelos, Kent, Barasic, Kamara etc. I think that there may have been some dilution from 20p, but not much. Their biggest issue at the moment is the structural deficit in running losses year on year. However, if they were to realise the value of one or two of their playing assets each year then that deficit would be wiped out (that's exactly how Celtic has avoided reporting losses over the last few years). Edit: his spin about the 23.7p average cost will be a reflection of all the costs involved with his shareholding, e.g. he was liable for all the legal fees for himself and the Takeover Panel. Edited December 2, 2020 by Footballfirst Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hagar the Horrible Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 2 minutes ago, Footballfirst said: King's initial purchase of shares was in January 2015 when he acquired 11.9m shares from existing shareholders Artemis and Miton. That purchase was at 20.1p a share although it was widely reported as being 20p. All his subsequent shares have come from DFE swaps (conversion of loans). The dilution you describe does not necessarily occur. If a company simply issues more shares with nothing in return, then yes, the value of the company will stay the same and the value of individual shares will drop proportionately. If however if the cash (originally in the form of loans) is used to purchase assets, then the value of the company will go up by that amount, but maintain the monetary value of the shares. Rangers have speculated to accumulate. There is no question about that. However, there is a strong argument that they have spent well in recent years in the transfer market and the asset value of their squad has increased considerably, e.g. Tavernier, Morelos, Kent, Barasic, Kamara etc. I think that there may have been some dilution from 20p, but not much. Their biggest issue at the moment is the structural deficit in running losses year on year. However, if they were to realise the value of one or two of their playing assets each year then that deficit would be wiped out (that's exactly how Celtic has avoided reporting losses over the last few years). Brilliant well explained Not necessary for you to answer, but Club 1872 only raised something like 500k in years, how are they going to raise £13.3m in three years? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Hagar the Horrible said: Brilliant well explained Not necessary for you to answer, but Club 1872 only raised something like 500k in years, how are they going to raise £13.3m in three years? At the moment, they are advertising investments at £500 a pop, so if they can get 26,000 gullible individuals to take up the offer then they will hit the target. They put up £1m in September 2018 and a further £500k in November 2019. I don't know what their current cash reserves are. Edited December 2, 2020 by Footballfirst Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Black Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 6 minutes ago, Footballfirst said: At the moment, they are advertising investments at £500 a pop, so if they can get 26,000 gullible individuals to take up the offer then they will hit the target. They put up £1m in September 2018 and a further £500k in November 2019. I don't know what their current cash reserves are. You certainly know your stuff FF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spellczech Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 7 minutes ago, Footballfirst said: At the moment, they are advertising investments at £500 a pop, so if they can get 26,000 gullible individuals to take up the offer then they will hit the target. They put up £1m in September 2018 and a further £500k in November 2019. I don't know what their current cash reserves are. What RRM wouldn't want to just hand £500 of his hard-earned to multimillionaire Dave King!? LOL They are so lucky OF fans are stupid... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 1 minute ago, Spellczech said: What RRM wouldn't want to just hand £500 of his hard-earned to multimillionaire Dave King!? LOL They are so lucky OF fans are stupid... I agree. King, his concert party and Club 1872, were happy to see other shareholders diluted to insignificance through multiple DFE swaps. There is no reason why the current shareholders should want to change that approach, so it is a surprise that Club 1872 should be seen to repay King £1 for £1, rather than invest directly into the club. It begs the question of whether or not King has placemen/women as directors of Club 1872, to do as he suggests. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spellczech Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Footballfirst said: I agree. King, his concert party and Club 1872, were happy to see other shareholders diluted to insignificance through multiple DFE swaps. There is no reason why the current shareholders should want to change that approach, so it is a surprise that Club 1872 should be seen to repay King £1 for £1, rather than invest directly into the club. It begs the question of whether or not King has placemen/women as directors of Club 1872, to do as he suggests. Another interesting thing will be if the fans don't pony up. Will King say "enough" and not contribute to future issues and sit there watching his own % be diluted? As was revealed in the 90s football is a tough investment: A stadium is only worth the land it is build upon and a footballer is always just one nasty tackle away from being worth zip... Like any company owning 49% is little better than owning 0.0000001% unless you put a lot of value in the dignity of wearing a company tie and getting to sit in the directors' box. It is no coincidence that King is trying to exit before 10-IAR. His stock with the bears must be pretty high at the moment. Funny how Celtic are having a torrid time of it right now...Are King and Lawwell golf buddies? Edited December 2, 2020 by Spellczech Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysterion Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 6 minutes ago, Footballfirst said: It begs the question of whether or not King has placemen/women as directors of Club 1872, to do as he suggests. There has been social media criticism of the Club1872 officials that they would not criticise the board and specifically King in the past. It's probably a given that Chris Graham would sell his first born to hobnob in a directors box so it shouldn't be a surprise. If anything comes from this new share buying bonanza it's that you'd expect debt for equity swaps to be off the table to protect their status as the biggest shareholder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NANOJAMBO Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 42 minutes ago, Hagar the Horrible said: another question is if King is selling his 20% for £13.3m , he is valuing the club at £66.5m thats a club that has their training facility held by Sports Scotland, and pretty much everything else by Close brothers. History will tell us thet in 2006 SDM tried to do a share issue and ended up selling 1/3rd of MIM to finance that deal and ended up with extra shares he was trying to get rid of? If this was Dragons Den rather than Bearsden I would be saying...Im out! At 20p (or thereabouts a share) that means King has around 60/65 MILLION shares in Rangers ? Rangers have issued , on that basis, around 300 million shares ? On another note : is the share sell off simply so that King gets his DFE money back - but to avoid this being obvious, he's selling his entire shareholding. Not very "loyal" of him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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