Climate protest in Edinburgh

[Cade]

EU is currently in the process of banning all single-use plastics and to make all packaging 100% recyclable.

 

There needs to be a global change, not just in one part of the planet.

 

To meet quotas and targets, many western nations simply ship their waste to the far east. China processes 1/3 of the world's garbage, so this puts their pollution figures up.

The far east has become the world's landfill but that's changing as the authorities there are realising that the money they get in return simply isn't enough for the damage it's causing them.

 

 

[Lovecraft]

More today at the bottom of the Royal Mile.

 

They weren't blocking the road though.

 

 

[doctor jambo]

29 minutes ago, Cade said:

EU is currently in the process of banning all single-use plastics and to make all packaging 100% recyclable.

 

There needs to be a global change, not just in one part of the planet.

 

To meet quotas and targets, many western nations simply ship their waste to the far east. China processes 1/3 of the world's garbage, so this puts their pollution figures up.

The far east has become the world's landfill but that's changing as the authorities there are realising that the money they get in return simply isn't enough for the damage it's causing them.

 

 

All waste export should be banned immediately.

Its an utter joke that we could combat such issues by sailing it around the world to be burned or buried in a poor country.

All plastic single use bottles should also be subject to a levy- 50 p per bottle. put a REAL value on re-use

[Toggie88]

44 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

All waste export should be banned immediately.

Its an utter joke that we could combat such issues by sailing it around the world to be burned or buried in a poor country.

All plastic single use bottles should also be subject to a levy- 50 p per bottle. put a REAL value on re-use

 

This isn't exactly what's been happening. Until very recently, China has been purchasing (yes, we sold it to them) the majority of the West's waste. Why? To reuse in plastic products. The plastic we 'recycle' here, often ends up travelling half way around the world, to get remade into something, which will get shipped back, and the cycle repeats. 

 

However, the explosion of China's urban areas and growth of their middle class has resulted in a lot of their own waste. So much so, they've banned the import from other countries. Here lies a huge part of the current problem. 

[Thumper]

10 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

They are simply being arseholes.  They are too scared to take themselves to places which don't care as they will get beaten up or worse.

 

This is pseudo intellectual arseholes making token gestures to make themselves feel better.

 

Well that's one way of looking at it I suppose.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

5 hours ago, Cade said:

EU is currently in the process of banning all single-use plastics and to make all packaging 100% recyclable.

 

There needs to be a global change, not just in one part of the planet.

 

To meet quotas and targets, many western nations simply ship their waste to the far east. China processes 1/3 of the world's garbage, so this puts their pollution figures up.

The far east has become the world's landfill but that's changing as the authorities there are realising that the money they get in return simply isn't enough for the damage it's causing them.

 

 

 

Here’s the thing though mate - I can well imagine other, less developed parts of the world thinking ‘hold on, the west has had the chance to massively develop and now we’re all being told that we can’t do the same in the same way.’

 

in a sense, it’s a fair argument. It’s not helpful for climate change though

[Seymour M Hersh]

9 hours ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

 

Here’s the thing though mate - I can well imagine other, less developed parts of the world thinking ‘hold on, the west has had the chance to massively develop and now we’re all being told that we can’t do the same in the same way.’

 

in a sense, it’s a fair argument. It’s not helpful for climate change though

 

The counter argument might be the knowledge of the damage various things may cause or do cause is only now coming to light. And then the the less developed countries will say oh that's convenient! And it will go round and round like a mad dog chasing it's tail.

[kelosom]

I would like to see the protestors highlight what we are all doing wrong in our day to day life. Maybe it's the people that need to change not the government.

[frankblack]

1 hour ago, kelosom said:

I would like to see the protestors highlight what we are all doing wrong in our day to day life. Maybe it's the people that need to change not the government.

 

I'd like them to explain what difference any actions the UK takes will make when countries with billions of people increase their plastics and pollution as their population grows.

 

Whatever we do is irrelevant until these countries change their ways.

[The Real Maroonblood]

1 hour ago, kelosom said:

I would like to see the protestors highlight what we are all doing wrong in our day to day life. Maybe it's the people that need to change not the government.

Good point, unfortunately some people are that thick they can’t even differentiate between recycling and landfill.

Governments need to bring in tougher legislation.

[the general]

These protests and the Partick strip furore certainly bring out the loonies on both sides.

[EH11_2NL]

 

[Justin Z]

2 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

I'd like them to explain what difference any actions the UK takes will make when countries with billions of people increase their plastics and pollution as their population grows.

 

Whatever we do is irrelevant until these countries change their ways.

 

If you live on a street where everyone litters and also litter yourself there will quite literally be more litter on the street, because you contributed some of it, than if you stuck to better principles and didn't litter.

 

It's not irrelevant; it does make a difference. It may not be a difference you care to acknowledge, and it may not be enough of one to ultimately save all our skins, but it is a measurable difference all the same.

[frankblack]

29 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

If you live on a street where everyone litters and also litter yourself there will quite literally be more litter on the street, because you contributed some of it, than if you stuck to better principles and didn't litter.

 

It's not irrelevant; it does make a difference. It may not be a difference you care to acknowledge, and it may not be enough of one to ultimately save all our skins, but it is a measurable difference all the same.

 

Using your analogy the action you are proposing is the equivalent of one house on the street going green while every other house  pollutes and doesn't recycle and the street is extended by a new block every year of people who also don't recycle.

 

That one house recycling feels good meanwhile 40 new houses a year pollute.  Not really solving anything is it?

[Mikey1874]

4 hours ago, kelosom said:

I would like to see the protestors highlight what we are all doing wrong in our day to day life. Maybe it's the people that need to change not the government.

 

It is certainly good to raise awareness which they have done. 

 

They do seem to focus on governments.  

 

But actual practical actions are needed. Eg stopping flying. Because their 2025 target needs massive actual change now. 

[Governor Tarkin]

9 hours ago, Justin Z said:

 

If you live on a street where everyone litters and also litter yourself there will quite literally be more litter on the street, because you contributed some of it, than if you stuck to better principles and didn't litter.

 

It's not irrelevant; it does make a difference. It may not be a difference you care to acknowledge, and it may not be enough of one to ultimately save all our skins, but it is a measurable difference all the same.

 

You're wasting your time.

[Justin Z]

1 minute ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

You're wasting your time.

 

Oh, I read the response. You'll note the lack of a further reply.

[H2]

Fact - Climate change is natural, or was there never an Ice Age?

 

[Bindy Badgy]

6 hours ago, H2 said:

Fact - Climate change is natural, or was there never an Ice Age?

 

 

It's an irrelevant fact. No one is claiming that climate change isn't natural. There is huge amounts of evidence that the climate change that we see at the moment isn't natural.

[ri Alban]

21 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

I'd like them to explain what difference any actions the UK takes will make when countries with billions of people increase their plastics and pollution as their population grows.

 

Whatever we do is irrelevant until these countries change their ways.

Aw well, maybe we should have guns and Dictatorships. What's the point!

[H2]

1 hour ago, Stokesy said:

 

It's an irrelevant fact. No one is claiming that climate change isn't natural. There is huge amounts of evidence that the climate change that we see at the moment isn't natural.

That's the first time I ever heard that nature is irrelevant, but hey maybe someone will be sponsoring that too.

 

 

[ri Alban]

34 minutes ago, H2 said:

That's the first time I ever heard that nature is irrelevant, but hey maybe someone will be sponsoring that too.

 

 

The Himalayas glacier melt, is Not! natural.

[H2]

1 minute ago, ri Alban said:

The Himalayas glacier melt, is Not! natural.

What's that got to do with the response of nature being irrelevant?

Climate change is natural = Fact.

 

 

[frankblack]

1 hour ago, ri Alban said:

Aw well, maybe we should have guns and Dictatorships. What's the point!

 

You are rambling and your response is not relevant to my post that you quoted.

[ri Alban]

3 minutes ago, H2 said:

What's that got to do with the response of nature being irrelevant?

Climate change is natural = Fact.

 

 

Climate change acceleration by Human pollution= Fact!

Wild fires, Glacier melt, Sea level rise, Temperature rise,  plastic pollution are all human made disasters. No humans , the Earth will heat and cool naturally = Fact!

[ri Alban]

1 minute ago, frankblack said:

 

You are rambling and your response is not relevant to my post that you quoted.

How? Why do we not just act the same as China and the USA across the board. Guns and Dictatorships.

 

Why should it matter , us not shooting each other if the US is gonnae tip the balance with the 10s of thousands they shot.

 

Anyway, nevermind what other countries do or don't do and concentrate on what we can do.

[H2]

 

 

 

 

3

13 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Climate change acceleration by Human pollution= Fact!

Wild fires, Glacier melt, Sea level rise, Temperature rise,  plastic pollution are all human made disasters. No humans , the Earth will heat and cool naturally = Fact!

Ah ,Climate change acceleration by Human pollution =  an opinion, and different scientist will show different evidence, perhaps even based on who is sponsoring them. 

I won;t argue with plastic pollution, that's a separate issue anyway.

Temperature rise , sea level rise and fall, are natural and have occurred numerous times through history = FACT

This debate is like all the unfounded claims about the ozone layer! Lot's of people making lots of money out of it

[ri Alban]

Scientists who dispute climate change are usually idiots or frauds. It's been proved without a shadow of a doubt, humans caused this change. Only an idiot or with money to lose would say otherwise.

[Thumper]

On 18/06/2019 at 12:44, ri Alban said:

Bollox!

 

What do you have in mind?

[ri Alban]

2 hours ago, Thumper said:

 

What do you have in mind?

Human euthanasia!

[Thumper]

On 20/06/2019 at 10:35, ri Alban said:

Human euthanasia!

 

Bit harsh.

[¼½¾]

41 minutes ago, Thumper said:

 

Bit harsh.

That's one way, but I'm sure lethal injections would be more humane.

[jambo89]

On 18/06/2019 at 20:24, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

 

Here’s the thing though mate - I can well imagine other, less developed parts of the world thinking ‘hold on, the west has had the chance to massively develop and now we’re all being told that we can’t do the same in the same way.’

 

in a sense, it’s a fair argument. It’s not helpful for climate change though

 

This is a fair argument and it’s one I’ve seen before. I saw a debate once and it tackled the problem of how to deal with it which made sense to me and I’ll try explain it using Justin Z’s analogy below.

On 19/06/2019 at 10:36, Justin Z said:

 

If you live on a street where everyone litters and also litter yourself there will quite literally be more litter on the street, because you contributed some of it, than if you stuck to better principles and didn't litter.

 

It's not irrelevant; it does make a difference. It may not be a difference you care to acknowledge, and it may not be enough of one to ultimately save all our skins, but it is a measurable difference all the same.

 

If you live on a street where you throw 10 items of rubbish out on the street and your next door neighbour (the USA) also throws out 10 bits of Rubbish your street will be pretty dirty but at least liveable.

 

All of a sudden the neighbour across the street (China) gets a new job / pay rise and can afford to throw out a lot more rubbish than it used to. They are currently throwing out 8 bits of rubbish but will almost certainly start throwing out 10 bits of rubbish when the next pay rise comes along. 

 

Now the the street is pretty dirty and will have long term effects on the street. In the meantime the poor neighbours down the road (Africa) can only afford to throw out 2 items of rubbish along with the other neighbours across the street from them (South America).

 

Now it is incredibly unfair for us to say to the street, particularly our neighbours down the road (Africa and South America) that they must stop throwing out rubbish altogether as the street is getting too dirty. 

 

The only solution is to say to our poorer neighbours you can throw out up to 5 items of rubbish in the future  i.e. more than you currently are, and the rest of us will reduce how much rubbish we through out to 5 items also.

 

This would then equal out the total amount of rubbish on the street hopefully to a more manageable level.

 

Of course we need China and the US the make a massive difference in this scenario but we in the UK can have a real difference too.

 

In in addition to this, there could be a “keeping up with the Jones” affect.

 

Perhaps a more convoluted analogy than the one I saw put forward but hopefully still makes sense.  

 

I don’t agree that the uk doing this would have no effect. I can’t see how it wouldn’t.

 

 

[ri Alban]

4 hours ago, Thumper said:

 

Bit harsh.

Ok, Sterilisation! ?

[ri Alban]

3 hours ago, Lemongrab said:

That's one way, but I'm sure lethal injections would be more humane.

Stunning and throat slitting is supposed to be more humane. Horrendous! But if good enough for Animals?

 

Just think of all that human black pudding.

Edited June 22, 2019 by ri Alban

[¼½¾]

42 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Stunning and throat slitting is supposed to be more humane. Horrendous! But if good enough for Animals?

 

Just think of all that human black pudding.

I'm just glad I don't live in Stornoway.

[superjack]

9 minutes ago, Lemongrab said:

I'm just glad I don't live in Stornoway.

Well, maybe I'll rethink eating this black pudding roll I'm cooking. Mind you, if it's human blood that makes the difference in my local puddings, I'll get a job on the human slaughter line.

[Justin Z]

3 hours ago, jambo89 said:

Perhaps a more convoluted analogy than the one I saw put forward but hopefully still makes sense.  

 

I don’t agree that the uk doing this would have no effect. I can’t see how it wouldn’t.

 

 

Really good post that deals with the question begging (ie, unstated assumptions taken as true) in objection to the analogy. Cheers.

[frankblack]

1 hour ago, Justin Z said:

 

Really good post that deals with the question begging (ie, unstated assumptions taken as true) in objection to the analogy. Cheers.

 

It doesn't address how to stop the developing nations increasing pollution and dumping of plastics too.

 

For every %age we save these countries will increase their pollution levels due to bigger population and industrialisation.  India has a population of nearly 1.4 billion compared to our 66 million.  Do you need to do the maths?

 

The simple fact is that we in the UK can do very very little to avert climate change without addressing the issues with the developing nations.  There are serious problems doing that as these countries would demand financial incentives to cut back, and who is going to give them the money?

[jambo89]

23 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

It doesn't address how to stop the developing nations increasing pollution and dumping of plastics too.

 

For every %age we save these countries will increase their pollution levels due to bigger population and industrialisation.  India has a population of nearly 1.4 billion compared to our 66 million.  Do you need to do the maths?

 

The simple fact is that we in the UK can do very very little to avert climate change without addressing the issues with the developing nations.  There are serious problems doing that as these countries would demand financial incentives to cut back, and who is going to give them the money?

 

The solution is not to stop them increasing pollution.

 

Allow them to increase to a certain level, and we reduce our levels to match. 

 

As as per the analogy (quite a crack handed attempt from me right enough) 

[frankblack]

30 minutes ago, jambo89 said:

 

The solution is not to stop them increasing pollution.

 

Allow them to increase to a certain level, and we reduce our levels to match. 

 

As as per the analogy (quite a crack handed attempt from me right enough) 

 

Your solution quite literally doesn't add up.  Their pollution levels completely dwarf the most realistic savings we could make to a point its ridiculous.

 

I don't disagree that flights should have a massive tax increase though with exceptions only for the remote island services.  I would hammer those making multiple holiday flights on an increasing tax scale and cancel any Heathrow extensions.