5 year plan

[I.T.K]

7 hours ago, King Joffrey said:

I know criticism of Budge is contentious given she saved the club. But this can't continualy be used to deflect or excuse everything thereafter. I think there's actually a lot to be critical of. Constructively (hopefully) rather than cheap shots, but critical nonetheless. And a lot of fans seem to me anyway unwilling to confront these issues due to their regard for Budge. Similarly I'm not sure how challenging the FoH is of Budge either. 

 

Anyway. To firstly cover off any cup success, while welcome, it needs to be put in perspective. We've had Livingston at home, Auchinleck at home, struggled past Partick (eventually at home) then made 45 mins hard work of Inverness at Hampden. I'd expect to be in this final even under Cathro, Graham Rix or Tommy McLean. So Levein siting it as proof of progress feels almost open to ridicule. Most Hearts fans would acknowledge that even one of St Johnstone or Motherwell or Dundee away,  and we'd likely be out before now on the performances we've witnessed on this run. So reaching the final does not support any progress, although it does have to be said winning it v Celtic in a final would see me eat humble pie. But so far, limited plaudits or proof of anything. 

 

As for the plan. I actually thought she'd publicly said she'd ripped it up?Genuinely. But if it were a review of progress....

 

The Stand. 

£11m with £1m contingency is now at £18m+, and still not finished. And under spec. I'll avoid a lot of subjective opinion on what we've got for this investment, but will just say, to spend that and STILL our top tier corporate is in the Gorgie Stand, is poor in the extreme. It is subjective, but I do feel pretty underwhelmed for nearly £20m on a single stand with limited corporate appeal. 

 

Managerial Appts

Cathro. The reliance on Levein and the DoF position onto the Exec Board. The talk of promoting up from within. None of it has filled me with confidence. Again we all have views. But I'd rather do away with the DoF position as it makes the manager role less attractive, and instead we should focus on attracting the best manager we can and supporting his vision. I hate to admit agreeing with Billy Davies. But this doesn't work for me and can't see any external manager of note signing up for this. Jon Daly would. 

Some credit however for Robbie who I think did better than most anticipated. 

 

Recruitment

Are we now at 160 players signed? More? There have been some decent signings in there but it feels like a numbers game. Sign 10, maybe 4 will be OK. This level of turnover isn't healthy and is expensive. On agents. And canceling contracts. As our most recent signing, Vanecek is a good example. Levein said he has to learn Scottish football is a battle in the air. So why sign someone who doesn't do that??? 

 

Player Sales

Historically we've been used to selling a Naysmith, Berra, Cameron, McCann, Gordon, etc and bringing in funds. Sow was our last major sale. We've seen Paterson, Walker, Nicholson, Holt, McGhee all leave and for very limited amounts. To be fair an argument could be made that with Souttar we're keeping him, which is better. But I do think the plan is a steady stream of major sales, like Ajax on a less grand scale, replaced by youth. And the sales aren't there as there is limited interest in our players. I take £1m bids for Uche with a raised eyebrow. 

 

Youth System

I'll admit I don't watch academy or youth games so happy to be corrected. But in the first team squad there's very limited signs of success. Morrison and Keena have played bit parts. But when our full squad is fit, what home produced player would even make the bench? I think we'd be one of the few clubs in the league where that'd be the case. Mulraney and Burns looked good in the Semi. But why have we no academy winger or full back pushing into the team at these ages when Budge positively glows about our conveyor belt? Instead we need to bring in talent from elsewhere. 

 

Attendances

Very limited true full houses since returning to Tynecastle and while Murrayfield skews the figures, we're down nearly 1k a game on last year and under Hibs now on home averages. Which is hugely disappointing. This concerns me given the extra revenue streams that were talked about on the new stand opening. I'll also be interested in ST progress for the new season. We seem to have peaked and are now potentially falling. ST price increases won't help.

 

Playing Style 

I actually wonder if this is related to attendances. Despite stats saying otherwise we are poor to watch. Long ball. Often 3 centre halves at home to lesser opposition. One up front. Direct. No pace, width or creativity. Old style football. No plan B. Our style actually seems to taking some players backwards. Like Lee. 

 

Finances

Hard to measure true operational profit when we have a silent investor and fans are contributing nearly £2m a year. Again, it will be interesting to see if this suffers from any tail off. I massively applaud all those contributing. Well done. But lack of progress on the pitch will challenge this in time. I'm not sure I see any real major sponsorship or corporate deals or extra income streams. Not sure it fits under Finance but will add our customer service via phone or online is shoddy at best. 

 

Fans and PR

Some will love her hard moral stance with open communications through a multitude of statements. Some don't. What I will comment on though is in our promotion year the unity of fans was unbelievable. Really something to witness and experience. A real togetherness. We now seem quite fractured as a fan base and infighting seems common. Something has been lost the last few years. 

 

Results

2014-15. Champions. Promoted. Out both cups to Celtic. No shame. Pass. 

2015-16. 3rd in a league with no Rangers or Hibs. Qualify for Europe. Out League Cup to Celtic. Out Scottish Cup from a home draw with Hibs. That loss defined the season for many. 50/50. 

2016-17. 5th in league. 12 points behind St Johnstone, 4 points above Partick. Out of Europe to a team from Malta. Out of the League Cup to St Johnstone. Out the Scottish Cup to Hibs (again) from a home draw. Fail. 

2017-18. 6th in league making top 6 by 1 point. League Cup don't get out a prelimary league group with Dunfermline, Peterhead, East Fife and Elgin. Out Scottish Cup to Motherwell. Fail. 

2018-19. Looking like 6th in league. Out League Cup to Celtic. Season depends on Scottish Cup Final. TBC. 

 

I've already went on probably too long for many. But I can't help but feel taking all into account I feel progress has been limited and the club would benefit from a new CEO, manager, recruitment approach, youth and backroom staff. I think the Budge era is coming to a natural conclusion but there doesn't have to be any sense of firing. Instead gratitude. But I think many would like to now see wholesale changes sooner rather than later. And in answer to the thread I think any progress against a 5 year plan is limited. The stand, team, results and all else above are the least I'd expect from any of us in that role regardless of experience, I'm sorry to say. 

 

 

So forgetting whats gone on the pitch. 

 

The Stand: Its far better then the one it replaced. Judging by some of the events it's held and awards its won I believe it has corporate appeal.  

 

Youth System: This was always going to take time.Judge players when they get to 21+ not 18/19. 

 

Attendances: They are clearly higher then the pre admin days. 

 

Finances: The fact people are putting money in to the clubs shows that people believe in Budge and she can bring in extra funds. 

 

 

 

[Finlay James]

7 hours ago, King Joffrey said:

I know criticism of Budge is contentious given she saved the club. But this can't continualy be used to deflect or excuse everything thereafter. I think there's actually a lot to be critical of. Constructively (hopefully) rather than cheap shots, but critical nonetheless. And a lot of fans seem to me anyway unwilling to confront these issues due to their regard for Budge. Similarly I'm not sure how challenging the FoH is of Budge either. 

 

Anyway. To firstly cover off any cup success, while welcome, it needs to be put in perspective. We've had Livingston at home, Auchinleck at home, struggled past Partick (eventually at home) then made 45 mins hard work of Inverness at Hampden. I'd expect to be in this final even under Cathro, Graham Rix or Tommy McLean. So Levein siting it as proof of progress feels almost open to ridicule. Most Hearts fans would acknowledge that even one of St Johnstone or Motherwell or Dundee away,  and we'd likely be out before now on the performances we've witnessed on this run. So reaching the final does not support any progress, although it does have to be said winning it v Celtic in a final would see me eat humble pie. But so far, limited plaudits or proof of anything. 

 

As for the plan. I actually thought she'd publicly said she'd ripped it up?Genuinely. But if it were a review of progress....

 

The Stand. 

£11m with £1m contingency is now at £18m+, and still not finished. And under spec. I'll avoid a lot of subjective opinion on what we've got for this investment, but will just say, to spend that and STILL our top tier corporate is in the Gorgie Stand, is poor in the extreme. It is subjective, but I do feel pretty underwhelmed for nearly £20m on a single stand with limited corporate appeal. 

 

Managerial Appts

Cathro. The reliance on Levein and the DoF position onto the Exec Board. The talk of promoting up from within. None of it has filled me with confidence. Again we all have views. But I'd rather do away with the DoF position as it makes the manager role less attractive, and instead we should focus on attracting the best manager we can and supporting his vision. I hate to admit agreeing with Billy Davies. But this doesn't work for me and can't see any external manager of note signing up for this. Jon Daly would. 

Some credit however for Robbie who I think did better than most anticipated. 

 

Recruitment

Are we now at 160 players signed? More? There have been some decent signings in there but it feels like a numbers game. Sign 10, maybe 4 will be OK. This level of turnover isn't healthy and is expensive. On agents. And canceling contracts. As our most recent signing, Vanecek is a good example. Levein said he has to learn Scottish football is a battle in the air. So why sign someone who doesn't do that??? 

 

Player Sales

Historically we've been used to selling a Naysmith, Berra, Cameron, McCann, Gordon, etc and bringing in funds. Sow was our last major sale. We've seen Paterson, Walker, Nicholson, Holt, McGhee all leave and for very limited amounts. To be fair an argument could be made that with Souttar we're keeping him, which is better. But I do think the plan is a steady stream of major sales, like Ajax on a less grand scale, replaced by youth. And the sales aren't there as there is limited interest in our players. I take £1m bids for Uche with a raised eyebrow. 

 

Youth System

I'll admit I don't watch academy or youth games so happy to be corrected. But in the first team squad there's very limited signs of success. Morrison and Keena have played bit parts. But when our full squad is fit, what home produced player would even make the bench? I think we'd be one of the few clubs in the league where that'd be the case. Mulraney and Burns looked good in the Semi. But why have we no academy winger or full back pushing into the team at these ages when Budge positively glows about our conveyor belt? Instead we need to bring in talent from elsewhere. 

 

Attendances

Very limited true full houses since returning to Tynecastle and while Murrayfield skews the figures, we're down nearly 1k a game on last year and under Hibs now on home averages. Which is hugely disappointing. This concerns me given the extra revenue streams that were talked about on the new stand opening. I'll also be interested in ST progress for the new season. We seem to have peaked and are now potentially falling. ST price increases won't help.

 

Playing Style 

I actually wonder if this is related to attendances. Despite stats saying otherwise we are poor to watch. Long ball. Often 3 centre halves at home to lesser opposition. One up front. Direct. No pace, width or creativity. Old style football. No plan B. Our style actually seems to taking some players backwards. Like Lee. 

 

Finances

Hard to measure true operational profit when we have a silent investor and fans are contributing nearly £2m a year. Again, it will be interesting to see if this suffers from any tail off. I massively applaud all those contributing. Well done. But lack of progress on the pitch will challenge this in time. I'm not sure I see any real major sponsorship or corporate deals or extra income streams. Not sure it fits under Finance but will add our customer service via phone or online is shoddy at best. 

 

Fans and PR

Some will love her hard moral stance with open communications through a multitude of statements. Some don't. What I will comment on though is in our promotion year the unity of fans was unbelievable. Really something to witness and experience. A real togetherness. We now seem quite fractured as a fan base and infighting seems common. Something has been lost the last few years. 

 

Results

2014-15. Champions. Promoted. Out both cups to Celtic. No shame. Pass. 

2015-16. 3rd in a league with no Rangers or Hibs. Qualify for Europe. Out League Cup to Celtic. Out Scottish Cup from a home draw with Hibs. That loss defined the season for many. 50/50. 

2016-17. 5th in league. 12 points behind St Johnstone, 4 points above Partick. Out of Europe to a team from Malta. Out of the League Cup to St Johnstone. Out the Scottish Cup to Hibs (again) from a home draw. Fail. 

2017-18. 6th in league making top 6 by 1 point. League Cup don't get out a prelimary league group with Dunfermline, Peterhead, East Fife and Elgin. Out Scottish Cup to Motherwell. Fail. 

2018-19. Looking like 6th in league. Out League Cup to Celtic. Season depends on Scottish Cup Final. TBC. 

 

I've already went on probably too long for many. But I can't help but feel taking all into account I feel progress has been limited and the club would benefit from a new CEO, manager, recruitment approach, youth and backroom staff. I think the Budge era is coming to a natural conclusion but there doesn't have to be any sense of firing. Instead gratitude. But I think many would like to now see wholesale changes sooner rather than later. And in answer to the thread I think any progress against a 5 year plan is limited. The stand, team, results and all else above are the least I'd expect from any of us in that role regardless of experience, I'm sorry to say. 

 

 

Call me a cynic but this just feels like another lame dig at the club.  Your post appears well thought out but it's actually full of holes and biased.  There are so many positive aspects that you have missed.

 

I think what you've fundamentally failed to mention is the complete rebuild and restructure of the club that Budge has overseen and continues to drive forward.  What would you be doing differently and unless you have extensive experience in business or football leadership, how can you possibly know?

[Kiwidoug]

OP far too long for me.  Ann Budge has done a superb job.  The disappointments have been on the park but it started off superbly and has been rocky since then.  Patience can run out in that regard and another disappointing season will be extremely concerning but I'm a glass half full person and I am very positive about the future, on and off the field.

[Bazzas right boot]

10 hours ago, NANOJAMBO said:

The elephant in the room which will hinder the club for years to come. 

 

 

 

 

???

 

 

[JamboAl1965]

So in 5 years since admin we,

skooshed the toughest championship  with record points

the following season qualified for Europe ( not sure why the absence of two championships clubs has any bearing on the success)

sold two players at proper fees to clubs and stopped bending over when the old firm come calling

developed an outstanding CB who fingers crossed could net us between 10 and 20 times his purchase price

sorted out the infrastructure 

have minimal real term sdebt

kept enough interest and belief to maintain FOH contributions

formed the basis of a decent team that requires increasingly less additions each year

reached a cup final (opponents are irrelevant and it’s impossible to say we wouldn’t if we played other teams. Fact is we are there)

would be much higher up the league if it wasn’t for a horrendous injury crisis

are addressing the sectarian element in our support

Re-established our community positions

have a number of outstanding young players who may or may not make it

and have an academy plan which may or may not produce top drawer players,

 

 

i have no idea what the plan actually says but they are good outcomes on which to build. I’ve seen many a great and shite hearts team in years and a club whose future has often been precarious ( still remember the Pink front page when Haggart’s team were all put up for sale)

 

me, I’m prepared to be balanced and let us continue to grow in an organised way. Hopefull as ever

[JamboGraham]

3 hours ago, Finlay James said:

 

Call me a cynic but this just feels like another lame dig at the club.  Your post appears well thought out but it's actually full of holes and biased.  There are so many positive aspects that you have missed.

 

I think what you've fundamentally failed to mention is the complete rebuild and restructure of the club that Budge has overseen and continues to drive forward.  What would you be doing differently and unless you have extensive experience in business or football leadership, how can you possibly know?

 

Indeed...it's a pity as it could have been a useful assessment, unfortunately the desire to selectively exaggerate or underplay kills the credibility of it. A few stand outs...

 

"I'd rather do away with the DoF position as it makes the manager role less attractive" - This would make us unique amongst the 5 'big' clubs in Scotland, has it made the manager role any less attractive at Aberdeen, *Celtic*, Rangers or Hibs? Why would we as a club feel we can uniquely operate without the role? However, a discussion on the scope and remit of the DOF role at Hearts is worthwhile. * Celtic* will publicly say they don't have one as they previously questioned the requirement for Rangers to have one. However, they do have a 'Head of Recruitment' who was previously 'Sporting Director' at Sunderland FC. Given that the sport of Sunderland FC is football and the duties of Celtics 'Head of Recruitment' overlap greatly with general DOF duties then we can be quite certain that they have one as well. They just don't call it that.

 

"Some credit however for Robbie who I think did better than most anticipated." Somewhat muted praise for a record breaking 2nd tier championship in arguably the strongest ever 2nd tier less than a year after exiting administration. This was followed up by a 3rd place top tier finish and we were sitting in 2nd place when he left the club.

 

"Are we now at 160 players signed? More?" No, no we are not.

 

"We're under Hibs now on home averages. Which is hugely disappointing." It would be hugely disappointing if it were true, thankfully it is not.

 

"Hard to measure true operational profit when we have a silent investor and fans are contributing nearly £2m a year." Not hard to measure given our club publishes accounts on an annual basis.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Fort Vallance]

I'm fairly sure the original 5 year plan didn't include Levein being in the dugout. And certainly not at the end of the 5 years. This isn't an anti Levein post by any means. If I remember correctly he signed  a 2 year contract as manager which would end at the end of this season. If he plans to stay on through the next stage of the development, surely he'll have to sign a new contract or move back upstairs.

[I.T.K]

39 minutes ago, Fort Vallance said:

I'm fairly sure the original 5 year plan didn't include Levein being in the dugout. And certainly not at the end of the 5 years. This isn't an anti Levein post by any means. If I remember correctly he signed  a 2 year contract as manager which would end at the end of this season. If he plans to stay on through the next stage of the development, surely he'll have to sign a new contract or move back upstairs.

 

It was a 3 year deal. 

 

 

[Boab]

3 minutes ago, I.T.K said:

 

It was a 3 year deal. 

 

 

 Yip. 1 year to go.

I’ll be very surprised if he doesn’t finish that deal regardless of the Cup Final.

[JamboAl]

1 hour ago, Fort Vallance said:

I'm fairly sure the original 5 year plan didn't include Levein being in the dugout. And certainly not at the end of the 5 years. This isn't an anti Levein post by any means. If I remember correctly he signed  a 2 year contract as manager which would end at the end of this season. If he plans to stay on through the next stage of the development, surely he'll have to sign a new contract or move back upstairs.

4

4

Of course it's not.  Who would have thought otherwise?

A plan is an aim and is subject to variation as circumstances change.

As I asked above - Was there a 5 year plan for the football side of things?  Evidence please.

Edited April 17, 2019 by JamboAl

[NANOJAMBO]

2 hours ago, Olly Lee's left boot said:

 

 

???

 

 

Top response there. 

[graygo]

13 hours ago, King Joffrey said:

Anyway. To firstly cover off any cup success, while welcome, it needs to be put in perspective. We've had Livingston at home, Auchinleck at home, struggled past Partick (eventually at home) then made 45 mins hard work of Inverness at Hampden. I'd expect to be in this final even under Cathro, Graham Rix or Tommy McLean. So Levein siting it as proof of progress feels almost open to ridicule.  Most Hearts fans would acknowledge that even one of St Johnstone or Motherwell or Dundee away,  and we'd likely be out before now on the performances we've witnessed on this run. So reaching the final does not support any progress, although it does have to be said winning it v Celtic in a final would see me eat humble pie. But so far, limited plaudits or proof of anything. 

 

Most Hearts fans? Pure speculation, I don't agree that we'd likely be out.

 

13 hours ago, King Joffrey said:

 

Player Sales

Historically we've been used to selling a Naysmith, Berra, Cameron, McCann, Gordon, etc and bringing in funds. Sow was our last major sale. We've seen Paterson, Walker, Nicholson, Holt, McGhee all leave and for very limited amounts. To be fair an argument could be made that with Souttar we're keeping him, which is better. But I do think the plan is a steady stream of major sales, like Ajax on a less grand scale, replaced by youth. And the sales aren't there as there is limited interest in our players. I take £1m bids for Uche with a raised eyebrow. 

 

Pretty sure you've missed a few that were sold from this list, off the top of my head  -Juanma and Goncalves went for a few quid.

 

13 hours ago, King Joffrey said:

 

Attendances

Very limited true full houses since returning to Tynecastle and while Murrayfield skews the figures, we're down nearly 1k a game on last year and under Hibs now on home averages. Which is hugely disappointing. This concerns me given the extra revenue streams that were talked about on the new stand opening. I'll also be interested in ST progress for the new season. We seem to have peaked and are now potentially falling. ST price increases won't help.

 

We do not have a lower average home attendance figure than Hibs, we might have had for a week or two which was jumped upon by the Scotsman group of newspapers but it is not true.

 

13 hours ago, King Joffrey said:

 

 

2018-19. Looking like 6th in league. Out League Cup to Celtic. Season depends on Scottish Cup Final. TBC. 

 

 

2 points behind Hibs, I think we will make that up on them so in my world it looks like 5th.

[Bazzas right boot]

39 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

Top response there. 

 

The new stand will hinder the club for years to come..... 

 

Is that what you meant, if so-

 

??????????????

[mitch41]

14 hours ago, King Joffrey said:

I know criticism of Budge is contentious given she saved the club. But this can't continualy be used to deflect or excuse everything thereafter. I think there's actually a lot to be critical of. Constructively (hopefully) rather than cheap shots, but critical nonetheless. And a lot of fans seem to me anyway unwilling to confront these issues due to their regard for Budge. Similarly I'm not sure how challenging the FoH is of Budge either. 

 

Anyway. To firstly cover off any cup success, while welcome, it needs to be put in perspective. We've had Livingston at home, Auchinleck at home, struggled past Partick (eventually at home) then made 45 mins hard work of Inverness at Hampden. I'd expect to be in this final even under Cathro, Graham Rix or Tommy McLean. So Levein siting it as proof of progress feels almost open to ridicule. Most Hearts fans would acknowledge that even one of St Johnstone or Motherwell or Dundee away,  and we'd likely be out before now on the performances we've witnessed on this run. So reaching the final does not support any progress, although it does have to be said winning it v Celtic in a final would see me eat humble pie. But so far, limited plaudits or proof of anything. 

 

As for the plan. I actually thought she'd publicly said she'd ripped it up?Genuinely. But if it were a review of progress....

 

The Stand. 

£11m with £1m contingency is now at £18m+, and still not finished. And under spec. I'll avoid a lot of subjective opinion on what we've got for this investment, but will just say, to spend that and STILL our top tier corporate is in the Gorgie Stand, is poor in the extreme. It is subjective, but I do feel pretty underwhelmed for nearly £20m on a single stand with limited corporate appeal. 

 

Managerial Appts

Cathro. The reliance on Levein and the DoF position onto the Exec Board. The talk of promoting up from within. None of it has filled me with confidence. Again we all have views. But I'd rather do away with the DoF position as it makes the manager role less attractive, and instead we should focus on attracting the best manager we can and supporting his vision. I hate to admit agreeing with Billy Davies. But this doesn't work for me and can't see any external manager of note signing up for this. Jon Daly would. 

Some credit however for Robbie who I think did better than most anticipated. 

 

Recruitment

Are we now at 160 players signed? More? There have been some decent signings in there but it feels like a numbers game. Sign 10, maybe 4 will be OK. This level of turnover isn't healthy and is expensive. On agents. And canceling contracts. As our most recent signing, Vanecek is a good example. Levein said he has to learn Scottish football is a battle in the air. So why sign someone who doesn't do that??? 

 

Player Sales

Historically we've been used to selling a Naysmith, Berra, Cameron, McCann, Gordon, etc and bringing in funds. Sow was our last major sale. We've seen Paterson, Walker, Nicholson, Holt, McGhee all leave and for very limited amounts. To be fair an argument could be made that with Souttar we're keeping him, which is better. But I do think the plan is a steady stream of major sales, like Ajax on a less grand scale, replaced by youth. And the sales aren't there as there is limited interest in our players. I take £1m bids for Uche with a raised eyebrow. 

 

Youth System

I'll admit I don't watch academy or youth games so happy to be corrected. But in the first team squad there's very limited signs of success. Morrison and Keena have played bit parts. But when our full squad is fit, what home produced player would even make the bench? I think we'd be one of the few clubs in the league where that'd be the case. Mulraney and Burns looked good in the Semi. But why have we no academy winger or full back pushing into the team at these ages when Budge positively glows about our conveyor belt? Instead we need to bring in talent from elsewhere. 

 

Attendances

Very limited true full houses since returning to Tynecastle and while Murrayfield skews the figures, we're down nearly 1k a game on last year and under Hibs now on home averages. Which is hugely disappointing. This concerns me given the extra revenue streams that were talked about on the new stand opening. I'll also be interested in ST progress for the new season. We seem to have peaked and are now potentially falling. ST price increases won't help.

 

Playing Style 

I actually wonder if this is related to attendances. Despite stats saying otherwise we are poor to watch. Long ball. Often 3 centre halves at home to lesser opposition. One up front. Direct. No pace, width or creativity. Old style football. No plan B. Our style actually seems to taking some players backwards. Like Lee. 

 

Finances

Hard to measure true operational profit when we have a silent investor and fans are contributing nearly £2m a year. Again, it will be interesting to see if this suffers from any tail off. I massively applaud all those contributing. Well done. But lack of progress on the pitch will challenge this in time. I'm not sure I see any real major sponsorship or corporate deals or extra income streams. Not sure it fits under Finance but will add our customer service via phone or online is shoddy at best. 

 

Fans and PR

Some will love her hard moral stance with open communications through a multitude of statements. Some don't. What I will comment on though is in our promotion year the unity of fans was unbelievable. Really something to witness and experience. A real togetherness. We now seem quite fractured as a fan base and infighting seems common. Something has been lost the last few years. 

 

Results

2014-15. Champions. Promoted. Out both cups to Celtic. No shame. Pass. 

2015-16. 3rd in a league with no Rangers or Hibs. Qualify for Europe. Out League Cup to Celtic. Out Scottish Cup from a home draw with Hibs. That loss defined the season for many. 50/50. 

2016-17. 5th in league. 12 points behind St Johnstone, 4 points above Partick. Out of Europe to a team from Malta. Out of the League Cup to St Johnstone. Out the Scottish Cup to Hibs (again) from a home draw. Fail. 

2017-18. 6th in league making top 6 by 1 point. League Cup don't get out a prelimary league group with Dunfermline, Peterhead, East Fife and Elgin. Out Scottish Cup to Motherwell. Fail. 

2018-19. Looking like 6th in league. Out League Cup to Celtic. Season depends on Scottish Cup Final. TBC. 

 

I've already went on probably too long for many. But I can't help but feel taking all into account I feel progress has been limited and the club would benefit from a new CEO, manager, recruitment approach, youth and backroom staff. I think the Budge era is coming to a natural conclusion but there doesn't have to be any sense of firing. Instead gratitude. But I think many would like to now see wholesale changes sooner rather than later. And in answer to the thread I think any progress against a 5 year plan is limited. The stand, team, results and all else above are the least I'd expect from any of us in that role regardless of experience, I'm sorry to say. 

 

Superb post all very true and I can’t imagine anyone having a problem with these facts.

[graygo]

7 minutes ago, mitch41 said:

Superb post all very true and I can’t imagine anyone having a problem with these facts.

 

The bit about Hibs having an average of 1,000 more than us as a home average, how about that bit?

 

https://www.footballwebpages.co.uk/scottish-premiership/attendances

 

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/scottish-premiership/besucherzahlen/wettbewerb/SC1/saison_id/2018/plus/

[I.T.K]

1 hour ago, mitch41 said:

Superb post all very true and I can’t imagine anyone having a problem with these facts.

 

I like the bit where we signed 160 players. 

[Bazzas right boot]

1 hour ago, mitch41 said:

Superb post all very true and I can’t imagine anyone having a problem with these facts.

 

 

Apart from it being 90% opinion. 

 

Aye, nothing at all. 

 

[Guest]

16 hours ago, King Joffrey said:

I know criticism of Budge is contentious given she saved the club. But this can't continualy be used to deflect or excuse everything thereafter. I think there's actually a lot to be critical of. Constructively (hopefully) rather than cheap shots, but critical nonetheless. And a lot of fans seem to me anyway unwilling to confront these issues due to their regard for Budge. Similarly I'm not sure how challenging the FoH is of Budge either. 

 

Anyway. To firstly cover off any cup success, while welcome, it needs to be put in perspective. We've had Livingston at home, Auchinleck at home, struggled past Partick (eventually at home) then made 45 mins hard work of Inverness at Hampden. I'd expect to be in this final even under Cathro, Graham Rix or Tommy McLean. So Levein siting it as proof of progress feels almost open to ridicule. Most Hearts fans would acknowledge that even one of St Johnstone or Motherwell or Dundee away,  and we'd likely be out before now on the performances we've witnessed on this run. So reaching the final does not support any progress, although it does have to be said winning it v Celtic in a final would see me eat humble pie. But so far, limited plaudits or proof of anything. 

 

As for the plan. I actually thought she'd publicly said she'd ripped it up?Genuinely. But if it were a review of progress....

 

The Stand. 

£11m with £1m contingency is now at £18m+, and still not finished. And under spec. I'll avoid a lot of subjective opinion on what we've got for this investment, but will just say, to spend that and STILL our top tier corporate is in the Gorgie Stand, is poor in the extreme. It is subjective, but I do feel pretty underwhelmed for nearly £20m on a single stand with limited corporate appeal. 

 

Managerial Appts

Cathro. The reliance on Levein and the DoF position onto the Exec Board. The talk of promoting up from within. None of it has filled me with confidence. Again we all have views. But I'd rather do away with the DoF position as it makes the manager role less attractive, and instead we should focus on attracting the best manager we can and supporting his vision. I hate to admit agreeing with Billy Davies. But this doesn't work for me and can't see any external manager of note signing up for this. Jon Daly would. 

Some credit however for Robbie who I think did better than most anticipated. 

 

Recruitment

Are we now at 160 players signed? More? There have been some decent signings in there but it feels like a numbers game. Sign 10, maybe 4 will be OK. This level of turnover isn't healthy and is expensive. On agents. And canceling contracts. As our most recent signing, Vanecek is a good example. Levein said he has to learn Scottish football is a battle in the air. So why sign someone who doesn't do that??? 

 

Player Sales

Historically we've been used to selling a Naysmith, Berra, Cameron, McCann, Gordon, etc and bringing in funds. Sow was our last major sale. We've seen Paterson, Walker, Nicholson, Holt, McGhee all leave and for very limited amounts. To be fair an argument could be made that with Souttar we're keeping him, which is better. But I do think the plan is a steady stream of major sales, like Ajax on a less grand scale, replaced by youth. And the sales aren't there as there is limited interest in our players. I take £1m bids for Uche with a raised eyebrow. 

 

Youth System

I'll admit I don't watch academy or youth games so happy to be corrected. But in the first team squad there's very limited signs of success. Morrison and Keena have played bit parts. But when our full squad is fit, what home produced player would even make the bench? I think we'd be one of the few clubs in the league where that'd be the case. Mulraney and Burns looked good in the Semi. But why have we no academy winger or full back pushing into the team at these ages when Budge positively glows about our conveyor belt? Instead we need to bring in talent from elsewhere. 

 

Attendances

Very limited true full houses since returning to Tynecastle and while Murrayfield skews the figures, we're down nearly 1k a game on last year and under Hibs now on home averages. Which is hugely disappointing. This concerns me given the extra revenue streams that were talked about on the new stand opening. I'll also be interested in ST progress for the new season. We seem to have peaked and are now potentially falling. ST price increases won't help.

 

Playing Style 

I actually wonder if this is related to attendances. Despite stats saying otherwise we are poor to watch. Long ball. Often 3 centre halves at home to lesser opposition. One up front. Direct. No pace, width or creativity. Old style football. No plan B. Our style actually seems to taking some players backwards. Like Lee. 

 

Finances

Hard to measure true operational profit when we have a silent investor and fans are contributing nearly £2m a year. Again, it will be interesting to see if this suffers from any tail off. I massively applaud all those contributing. Well done. But lack of progress on the pitch will challenge this in time. I'm not sure I see any real major sponsorship or corporate deals or extra income streams. Not sure it fits under Finance but will add our customer service via phone or online is shoddy at best. 

 

Fans and PR

Some will love her hard moral stance with open communications through a multitude of statements. Some don't. What I will comment on though is in our promotion year the unity of fans was unbelievable. Really something to witness and experience. A real togetherness. We now seem quite fractured as a fan base and infighting seems common. Something has been lost the last few years. 

 

Results

2014-15. Champions. Promoted. Out both cups to Celtic. No shame. Pass. 

2015-16. 3rd in a league with no Rangers or Hibs. Qualify for Europe. Out League Cup to Celtic. Out Scottish Cup from a home draw with Hibs. That loss defined the season for many. 50/50. 

2016-17. 5th in league. 12 points behind St Johnstone, 4 points above Partick. Out of Europe to a team from Malta. Out of the League Cup to St Johnstone. Out the Scottish Cup to Hibs (again) from a home draw. Fail. 

2017-18. 6th in league making top 6 by 1 point. League Cup don't get out a prelimary league group with Dunfermline, Peterhead, East Fife and Elgin. Out Scottish Cup to Motherwell. Fail. 

2018-19. Looking like 6th in league. Out League Cup to Celtic. Season depends on Scottish Cup Final. TBC. 

 

I've already went on probably too long for many. But I can't help but feel taking all into account I feel progress has been limited and the club would benefit from a new CEO, manager, recruitment approach, youth and backroom staff. I think the Budge era is coming to a natural conclusion but there doesn't have to be any sense of firing. Instead gratitude. But I think many would like to now see wholesale changes sooner rather than later. And in answer to the thread I think any progress against a 5 year plan is limited. The stand, team, results and all else above are the least I'd expect from any of us in that role regardless of experience, I'm sorry to say. 

 

 

An incredibly negative summary. The simple question is are we in an infinitely better position than we were 5 years ago? Obviously yes. Could we do better on the pitch. Obviously yes, like every season ever. How often do we get to a Scottish Cup final though?

 

To pick out a few specifics.

 

If you're going to try to downplay our cup run what's your view of our 98 cup draws before the final? Not sure anyone cares it was on the easy side now.

How often have we got over a million for a player signed for nothing a year before as we did with Sow?

You gave a Pass and 50/50 to winning the championship ahead of Hibs and Rangers and then finishing in Europe our first season back. That's absurd. How often do we finish 3rd on average?

We are not fractured as a fan base. The fan base saved the club. Ignoring online comments that could be from anyone, we just have an unfortunately vocal % of numpties who drown out the vast majority of fans, ranging from maybe 50 wannabe hooligans and 80s throwbacks, 100 or so genuine bigots (probably including the wannabe hooligans and throwbacks) who are not afraid to advertise it, a couple of racists it seems, a couple of genuine lunatics who thought hiring a plane to while near the top of the league was a good idea, and a very large number of torn-faced, moaning *******s and we've always had those.

As for finances, we are in the best shape of any club outside Celtic or have you missed the ongoing FoH contributions? Killie are over-achieving and will be back down when Clarke leaves, Aberdeen have been spending big for a long time with little return and will possibly be 50m in debt very soon. Hibs have been spending big for a long time. Neither Hibs or Aberdeen have our fan contributions to the coffers or a support willing to do that for their clubs.

 

[JamboAl]

1 hour ago, mitch41 said:

Superb post all very true and I can’t imagine anyone having a problem with these facts.

Is the 5 year plan a fact for playing matters or does that just relate to financial/commercial activities?

Can you give me a link for the 5 year plan you agree with.

 

[mitch41]

Can’t you get your own link. What am I .........Mitch Search.com

[JamboAl]

1 minute ago, mitch41 said:

Can’t you get your own link. What am I .........Mitch Search.com

I might if one existed but since you talk about it I'm surprised you're not desperate to advertise it.

 

BTW I tried Mitch Search.com and it seems it's a site for "I hate Levein" fans.  There's even a poll for what is the best date for him to leave.

[Bull's-eye]

5 years, 10 years, who gives a Shit.

 

Being a Hearts supporter can on occasion be the greatest feeling in the world. To have those feelings you have to have been at the other end of the spectrum.

 

Happy clapping and Maroon tinted glasses on for the rest of my days.

 

[XB52]

18 hours ago, King Joffrey said:

I know criticism of Budge is contentious given she saved the club.

But you joined the board just so you could criticise her and Levein????  Sad but you are not alone in our low post trolls 

[JamboGraham]

1 hour ago, JamboAl said:

Is the 5 year plan a fact for playing matters or does that just relate to financial/commercial activities?

 

This is a question I have often asked here on JKB. Based on what I can find published here is my interpretation.

 

The limited information available on the 5 year plan (i.e. a statement from Ann Budge in May, 2014) does not make any specific or direct reference to on field targets. However, one sentence toward the end of the statement is that we are striving for "continual year on year improvement". I believe this is the goal of the football department at Hearts. Not an exceptional or unreasonable expectation in any way from a football club.

 

This was then followed up with a much more specific comment in May, 2018 after 3 seasons in the top flight, which would appear to confirm our target/expectation from the football department. "Hearts as a club should always aim to be in contention, fighting to be as high as we can. We want to be regularly in Europe, and we are not going to change from our position - we want to be top three or four in Scotland; that is the way we plan."

 

The May, 2018 comments are not part of the 5 year plan, they simply appear to be the current general target/expectation of our club. Unfortunately there is no context on what she means by 'contention' or 'regularly' but if you reference that against the top three or four comment then I think we have our answer for 'contention' and 'regularly' means every year unless we are unlucky with the Scottish Cup winners being from outside the top 4. Again I don't think this is an exceptional or unreasonable expectation. It is worth noting though that if we were to do it consistently we would be outperforming every Hearts record since the 1950's so it is an ambitious target.

 

So in the previous 5 seasons...year on year improvement? No, a clear step down in Year 3 compared to Year 2. Year 4 and 5 is where the fun begins and has been debated, argued and fought over fiercely here on JKB. Have we improved year on year? Yes, No and Maybe is the answer. Did Year 3 become the benchmark for Years 4 and 5, or should it have been the high water mark of Year 2? Is it based on points won or league placing? And so on, and so on, and so on...even if the club did publish an actual measure we would still all have our own view on the validity of that measure.

 

So in my view the club did not have a 5 year plan, outside of structure, for the football side of the club, certainly not one that was ever published. I can find no reference to it now but I was under the impression in the summer of 2014 that the club were anticipating at least 2, if not 3 seasons in the 2nd tier. It would have been difficult to openly publish or acknowledge that. Therefore the 5 year goal of the football department was 'continual year on year improvement' and still should be season as season. This is followed up with a specific target/expectation now that we are once again an established top tier side of 'top three or four in Scotland'.

Edited April 17, 2019 by JamboGraham

[stuart500]

Having a so-called easy draw doesn't always guarantee getting to the final. In 2015 Hibs got 

 

Round 4 Alloa (a)

Round 5 Arbroath (h)

QF Berwick Rangers (h)

SF Falkirk (n)

 

They lost to Falkirk thankfully but they should really have made the final against Inverness. 

 

So I don't think we should have to apologise to anyone for winning the ties we've been drawn in.

[JamboAl]

48 minutes ago, JamboGraham said:

 

This is a question I have often asked here on JKB. Based on what I can find published here is my interpretation.

 

The limited information available on the 5 year plan (i.e. a statement from Ann Budge in May, 2014) does not make any specific or direct reference to on field targets. However, one sentence toward the end of the statement is that we are striving for "continual year on year improvement". I believe this is the goal of the football department at Hearts. Not an exceptional or unreasonable expectation in any way from a football club.

 

This was then followed up with a much more specific comment in May, 2018 after 3 seasons in the top flight, which would appear to confirm our target/expectation from the football department. "Hearts as a club should always aim to be in contention, fighting to be as high as we can. We want to be regularly in Europe, and we are not going to change from our position - we want to be top three or four in Scotland; that is the way we plan."

 

The May, 2018 comments are not part of the 5 year plan, they simply appear to be the current general target/expectation of our club. Unfortunately there is no context on what she means by 'contention' or 'regularly' but if you reference that against the top three or four comment then I think we have our answer for 'contention' and 'regularly' means every year unless we are unlucky with the Scottish Cup winners being from outside the top 4. Again I don't think this is an exceptional or unreasonable expectation. It is worth noting though that if we were to do it consistently we would be outperforming every Hearts record since the 1950's so it is an ambitious target.

 

So in the previous 5 seasons...year on year improvement? No, a clear step down in Year 3 compared to Year 2. Year 4 and 5 is where the fun begins and has been debated, argued and fought over fiercely here on JKB. Have we improved year on year? Yes, No and Maybe is the answer. Did Year 3 become the benchmark for Years 4 and 5, or should it have been the high water mark of Year 2? Is it based on points won or league placing? And so on, and so on, and so on...even if the club did publish an actual measure we would still all have our own view on the validity of that measure.

 

So in my view the club did not have a 5 year plan, outside of structure, for the football side of the club, certainly not one that was ever published. I can find no reference to it now but I was under the impression in the summer of 2014 that the club were anticipating at least 2, if not 3 seasons in the 2nd tier. It would have been difficult to openly publish or acknowledge that. Therefore the 5 year goal of the football department was 'continual year on year improvement' and still should be season as season. This is followed up with a specific target/expectation now that we are once again an established top tier side of 'top three or four in Scotland'.

14

The highlighted part seems to be the case unless Mitch comes up with something different.

As regards a continual year on year improvement, (that was an aim not a promise/guarantee) who knows what we could have achieved this season but for these injury set-backs!

[Johnny Sandiego]

19 hours ago, King Joffrey said:

 

 

Recruitment

Are we now at 160 players signed? More? There have been some decent signings in there but it feels like a numbers game. Sign 10, maybe 4 will be OK. This level of turnover isn't healthy and is expensive. On agents. And canceling contracts. As our most recent signing, Vanecek is a good example. Levein said he has to learn Scottish football is a battle in the air. So why sign someone who doesn't do that??? 

 

 

 

A few posters have already called out a lot of the holes in your post but the bit in bold stands out for me.

 

160 players????

 

In the last 5 years? So 32 a season? 

 

Must have missed about 80 of them. 

 

[Neon]

19 hours ago, King Joffrey said:

I know criticism of Budge is contentious given she saved the club. But this can't continualy be used to deflect or excuse everything thereafter. I think there's actually a lot to be critical of. Constructively (hopefully) rather than cheap shots, but critical nonetheless. And a lot of fans seem to me anyway unwilling to confront these issues due to their regard for Budge. Similarly I'm not sure how challenging the FoH is of Budge either. 

 

Anyway. To firstly cover off any cup success, while welcome, it needs to be put in perspective. We've had Livingston at home, Auchinleck at home, struggled past Partick (eventually at home) then made 45 mins hard work of Inverness at Hampden. I'd expect to be in this final even under Cathro, Graham Rix or Tommy McLean. So Levein siting it as proof of progress feels almost open to ridicule. Most Hearts fans would acknowledge that even one of St Johnstone or Motherwell or Dundee away,  and we'd likely be out before now on the performances we've witnessed on this run. So reaching the final does not support any progress, although it does have to be said winning it v Celtic in a final would see me eat humble pie. But so far, limited plaudits or proof of anything. 

 

As for the plan. I actually thought she'd publicly said she'd ripped it up?Genuinely. But if it were a review of progress....

 

The Stand. 

£11m with £1m contingency is now at £18m+, and still not finished. And under spec. I'll avoid a lot of subjective opinion on what we've got for this investment, but will just say, to spend that and STILL our top tier corporate is in the Gorgie Stand, is poor in the extreme. It is subjective, but I do feel pretty underwhelmed for nearly £20m on a single stand with limited corporate appeal. 

 

Managerial Appts

Cathro. The reliance on Levein and the DoF position onto the Exec Board. The talk of promoting up from within. None of it has filled me with confidence. Again we all have views. But I'd rather do away with the DoF position as it makes the manager role less attractive, and instead we should focus on attracting the best manager we can and supporting his vision. I hate to admit agreeing with Billy Davies. But this doesn't work for me and can't see any external manager of note signing up for this. Jon Daly would. 

Some credit however for Robbie who I think did better than most anticipated. 

 

Recruitment

Are we now at 160 players signed? More? There have been some decent signings in there but it feels like a numbers game. Sign 10, maybe 4 will be OK. This level of turnover isn't healthy and is expensive. On agents. And canceling contracts. As our most recent signing, Vanecek is a good example. Levein said he has to learn Scottish football is a battle in the air. So why sign someone who doesn't do that??? 

 

Player Sales

Historically we've been used to selling a Naysmith, Berra, Cameron, McCann, Gordon, etc and bringing in funds. Sow was our last major sale. We've seen Paterson, Walker, Nicholson, Holt, McGhee all leave and for very limited amounts. To be fair an argument could be made that with Souttar we're keeping him, which is better. But I do think the plan is a steady stream of major sales, like Ajax on a less grand scale, replaced by youth. And the sales aren't there as there is limited interest in our players. I take £1m bids for Uche with a raised eyebrow. 

 

Youth System

I'll admit I don't watch academy or youth games so happy to be corrected. But in the first team squad there's very limited signs of success. Morrison and Keena have played bit parts. But when our full squad is fit, what home produced player would even make the bench? I think we'd be one of the few clubs in the league where that'd be the case. Mulraney and Burns looked good in the Semi. But why have we no academy winger or full back pushing into the team at these ages when Budge positively glows about our conveyor belt? Instead we need to bring in talent from elsewhere. 

 

Attendances

Very limited true full houses since returning to Tynecastle and while Murrayfield skews the figures, we're down nearly 1k a game on last year and under Hibs now on home averages. Which is hugely disappointing. This concerns me given the extra revenue streams that were talked about on the new stand opening. I'll also be interested in ST progress for the new season. We seem to have peaked and are now potentially falling. ST price increases won't help.

 

Playing Style 

I actually wonder if this is related to attendances. Despite stats saying otherwise we are poor to watch. Long ball. Often 3 centre halves at home to lesser opposition. One up front. Direct. No pace, width or creativity. Old style football. No plan B. Our style actually seems to taking some players backwards. Like Lee. 

 

Finances

Hard to measure true operational profit when we have a silent investor and fans are contributing nearly £2m a year. Again, it will be interesting to see if this suffers from any tail off. I massively applaud all those contributing. Well done. But lack of progress on the pitch will challenge this in time. I'm not sure I see any real major sponsorship or corporate deals or extra income streams. Not sure it fits under Finance but will add our customer service via phone or online is shoddy at best. 

 

Fans and PR

Some will love her hard moral stance with open communications through a multitude of statements. Some don't. What I will comment on though is in our promotion year the unity of fans was unbelievable. Really something to witness and experience. A real togetherness. We now seem quite fractured as a fan base and infighting seems common. Something has been lost the last few years. 

 

Results

2014-15. Champions. Promoted. Out both cups to Celtic. No shame. Pass. 

2015-16. 3rd in a league with no Rangers or Hibs. Qualify for Europe. Out League Cup to Celtic. Out Scottish Cup from a home draw with Hibs. That loss defined the season for many. 50/50. 

2016-17. 5th in league. 12 points behind St Johnstone, 4 points above Partick. Out of Europe to a team from Malta. Out of the League Cup to St Johnstone. Out the Scottish Cup to Hibs (again) from a home draw. Fail. 

2017-18. 6th in league making top 6 by 1 point. League Cup don't get out a prelimary league group with Dunfermline, Peterhead, East Fife and Elgin. Out Scottish Cup to Motherwell. Fail. 

2018-19. Looking like 6th in league. Out League Cup to Celtic. Season depends on Scottish Cup Final. TBC. 

 

I've already went on probably too long for many. But I can't help but feel taking all into account I feel progress has been limited and the club would benefit from a new CEO, manager, recruitment approach, youth and backroom staff. I think the Budge era is coming to a natural conclusion but there doesn't have to be any sense of firing. Instead gratitude. But I think many would like to now see wholesale changes sooner rather than later. And in answer to the thread I think any progress against a 5 year plan is limited. The stand, team, results and all else above are the least I'd expect from any of us in that role regardless of experience, I'm sorry to say. 

 

I read a few sentences then decided to check your posting history, not once have you ever posted anything positive about the club since you joined in March.

 

So go do one, try not to be poisoned by the chalice of Hearts lifting the Scottish cup on the 25th of May.

Edited April 17, 2019 by Neon

[Rudy T]

Any 5 year plan was firmly in the bucket when Cathro turned up, huge mistake and we’re a season behind where we should be. The stand has also impacted. However we have still managed to keep the crowd healthy, compete on the park albeit very up and down. Not many (if any) club in Scotland could appoint a disaster of a manager who would have relegated us and spend 18mil on a stand and still be top half with a cup final around the corner. Huge credit to the board and that includes CL. 

 

Theres always going to be to be mistakes what club hasn’t made mistakes. So many people wanted Neilson gone but with hind sight would anyone still think that was a good thing? CL has a style and it’s keeping the ship steady and right now a steady ship is what AB wants, she has a huge responsibility to deliver a club back to the fans that’s in a healthy and future proof state...she will do that. What we do with that is the million dollar question! 

[Jammy T]

Oh it was so much better in administration at the bottom of the league.....getting relegated.

 

We haven’t advanced one iota.

 

*iota - meaning one little bit; the ninth letter of the Greek alphabet (just helping out half the forum).

Edited April 17, 2019 by Jammy T

[mitch41]

4 hours ago, JamboAl said:

I might if one existed but since you talk about it I'm surprised you're not desperate to advertise it.

 

BTW I tried Mitch Search.com and it seems it's a site for "I hate Levein" fans.  There's even a poll for what is the best date for him to leave.

I don’t hate anyone my wee pal. Football is all about opinions and you should listen to me when i’m preachings 

on a Saturday in my club where I have a large following. The cost is : a pint of best & a drambuie.

[JamboGraham]

1 hour ago, Rudy T said:

Any 5 year plan was firmly in the bucket when Cathro turned up, huge mistake and we’re a season behind where we should be. The stand has also impacted. However we have still managed to keep the crowd healthy, compete on the park albeit very up and down. Not many (if any) club in Scotland could appoint a disaster of a manager who would have relegated us and spend 18mil on a stand and still be top half with a cup final around the corner. Huge credit to the board and that includes CL. 

 

Theres always going to be to be mistakes what club hasn’t made mistakes. So many people wanted Neilson gone but with hind sight would anyone still think that was a good thing? CL has a style and it’s keeping the ship steady and right now a steady ship is what AB wants, she has a huge responsibility to deliver a club back to the fans that’s in a healthy and future proof state...she will do that. What we do with that is the million dollar question! 

 

An interesting post....probably been said before on here but with hindsight might we have lost less momentum if the board, including the DOF, had held their nerve when Neilson left and appointed their next coach in line rather than abandon the boot room policy at the first hurdle? Would an appointment till the end of the season have been any less damaging than the appointment we did make?

[Guest]

Just now, JamboGraham said:

 

An interesting post....probably been said before on here but with hindsight might we have lost less momentum if the board, including the DOF, had held their nerve when Neilson left and appointed their next coach in line rather than abandon the boot room policy at the first hurdle? Would an appointment till the end of the season have been any less damaging than the appointment we did make?

 

Levein himself admitted he gave the job to Cathro too soon, forced into it by Neilson leaving. Originally Cathro was to be U20 coach then promoted in a few years. Levein could have taken on a caretaker role until summer, even with Cathro assisting/shadowing. I think this was an example of Levein's pig-headed side. He was really keen for his protege to get a chance. In fairness, even though it seems crazy now, Cathro was on Rangers radar and considered a hot property at the time. Levein may have thought it's now or never to get him. Cathro himself also seems to have over-estimated his abilities. He thought he was ready but clearly wasn't.

[portobellojambo1]

7 minutes ago, Jammy T said:

Oh it was so much better in administration at the bottom of the league.....getting relegated.

 

We haven’t advanced one iota.

 

*iota - meaning one little bit; the ninth letter of the Greek alphabet (just helping out half the forum).

 

Not read through the thread, just popped on during HT in the Man City v Spurs game. Would I be right if I said I doubt that everyone who has posted prior to you has said we were better off in admin and haven't moved on one iota since then.

 

In terms of the plan I think a win in the Scottish Cup final would be the perfect point at which to rethink the future, a number of months prior to FoH taking over. A win on the park would also create a situation where Craig Levein will have succeeded in winning a trophy. I'd be pleased with that and I hope he would too. But we then would have to think if he would win anything in potentially his last season here, or would it maybe be better from his point of view if he moved on on a high. I think in terms of off the park things will continue to develop, there is basically a whole landing within the new stand where HMFC have to decide how it will be used best, to generate further income. And the restaurant/facilities on the top floor will be operational within a couple of months I believe, it has to be, a rather large wedding has been booked for July and the booking confirmed. If it goes successfully it opens up another avenue to income. I really don't think we have to worry too much, if at all, about how things will develop off the park, but I do think that post the cup final might be the opportunity to consider the direction we go in on the park. I have absolutely nothing against Craig Levein, loved him as player, he is good to talk to, I enjoyed a lot of the football we played during his first spell as manager, some in his present spell but I do think it is worthwhile to consider something different on the park, while accepting there are absolutely no guarantees a change in the playing style will create instant success.

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, portobellojambo1 said:

 

Not read through the thread, just popped on during HT in the Man City v Spurs game. Would I be right if I said I doubt that everyone who has posted prior to you has said we were better off in admin and haven't moved on one iota since then.

 

In terms of the plan I think a win in the Scottish Cup final would be the perfect point at which to rethink the future, a number of months prior to FoH taking over. A win on the park would also create a situation where Craig Levein will have succeeded in winning a trophy. I'd be pleased with that and I hope he would too. But we then would have to think if he would win anything in potentially his last season here, or would it maybe be better from his point of view if he moved on on a high. I think in terms of off the park things will continue to develop, there is basically a whole landing within the new stand where HMFC have to decide how it will be used best, to generate further income. And the restaurant/facilities on the top floor will be operational within a couple of months I believe, it has to be, a rather large wedding has been booked for July and the booking confirmed. If it goes successfully it opens up another avenue to income. I really don't think we have to worry too much, if at all, about how things will develop off the park, but I do think that post the cup final might be the opportunity to consider the direction we go in on the park. I have absolutely nothing against Craig Levein, loved him as player, he is good to talk to, I enjoyed a lot of the football we played during his first spell as manager, some in his present spell but I do think it is worthwhile to consider something different on the park, while accepting there are absolutely no guarantees a change in the playing style will create instant success.

 

Would that change of direction not likely be Levein back as DoF and Daly and McPhee in charge of the team? Especially if we do win the cup? So not really the change some seem to be wanting?

 

The alternative would be a new manager, possibly with no Levein as DoF. That means new coaching staff. And a lot of squad changes. That said I wouldn't be surprised to see Robbo in charge, especially if Caley don't go up. That would probably ensure a bit of continuity.

 

We've got a very good core now on long contracts, built by Levein, especially if even just two of Naismith, Djoum and Haring resign as well. He's signed some gems in the past and I expect him to pick up at least one or two more in summer. Halkett is a good start. He also says he himself wants to change direction on the pitch by adding more creative players. I think, win or lose the cup final, he's deserved the chance to see out his contract. He admitted he messed up by relying on Naismith and Uche staying fit with no tested back-up system in place. I think he's learnt from that and no way will we have the injuries we had this season again in any case. (Famous last words)

 

 

Edited April 17, 2019 by Guest

[JamboGraham]

16 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

Levein himself admitted he gave the job to Cathro too soon, forced into it by Neilson leaving. Originally Cathro was to be U20 coach then promoted in a few years. Levein could have taken on a caretaker role until summer, even with Cathro assisting/shadowing. I think this was an example of Levein's pig-headed side. He was really keen for his protege to get a chance. In fairness, even though it seems crazy now, Cathro was on Rangers radar and considered a hot property at the time. Levein may have thought it's now or never to get him. Cathro himself also seems to have over-estimated his abilities. He thought he was ready but clearly wasn't.

 

Thanks for that...I didn’t realise Levein had admitted that but yes it was far too early, in fact perhaps manager level will always be promoting Cathro to a level of incompetence. He is clearly well regarded in the game, you don’t get the gigs he has without adding something...just looks as though he is a team member not the boss. I remember well the Rangers link, I wonder how differently that appointment would have been reported (initially anyway, he would have been hounded out of their as well).

[Fozzyonthefence]

On 16/04/2019 at 20:19, Cruickshank for Scotland said:

 

If we beat Celtic and win the cup it will be a sign of huge progress on the pitch -  if we lose it will be a sign we got a fantastic draw out of the hat in every round.

Huge progress has been made off the pitch.

 

Pretty much where I’m at.

 

Off the park, we’re in great shape but unfortunately on the park we’re going backwards / stalling, when you consider 3 years ago we were light years ahead of both Hibs and Sevco to beingmiles behind them last season and behind them again this season.

 

The standard of player we have in the squad this season is better than it was 12 months ago even if results are not much better (we’ll likely only finish with a few points more than last season, which, after the start this season is hugely disappointing).

 

This squad, although clearly needing strengthening in a few positions, is underperforming imo, but with a bit tweaking and a new manager next season we could be challenging for top 3.

[Sid]

5 years into a 4 year plan with 3 years to go!!!!! 

[Nookie Bear]

4 minutes ago, Sid said:

5 years into a 4 year plan with 3 years to go!!!!! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

even the happiest of clapper appears to be conceding that on the park needs to improve but the standard line seemingly mostly going unchallenged is how fantastically well run we are off it

 

are we?

 

discounting pledges and benefactors are we doing so great? is the stand pulling in tons of additional revenue etc yet?

 

weve been heavily reliant on naismith a loan player financed by a benefactor?

 

do all the numbers add up or is it just assumed to be fine because mrs budge is an amazing business person?

[JamboAl]

3 hours ago, mitch41 said:

I don’t hate anyone my wee pal. Football is all about opinions and you should listen to me when i’m preachings 

on a Saturday in my club where I have a large following. The cost is : a pint of best & a drambuie.

I seldom listen to the shite of your preachings and your deflective ramblings.

Can you tell us about the 5 year plan as it relates to on-field matters?

Straightforward question!  Straightforward answer, please.

[Bridge of Djoum]

14 hours ago, mitch41 said:

Superb post all very true and I can’t imagine anyone having a problem with these facts.

''Facts''?

 

There are several holes in it. 

[Bridge of Djoum]

On 16/04/2019 at 19:11, NANOJAMBO said:

The elephant in the room which will hinder the club for years to come. 

 

 

A new stand will hinder the club for years to come?

 

2 things.

 

1. In what way will it hinder the club?

2. Can you give any other examples of clubs who have been ''hindered'' by expanding and improving the stadium infastructure?

[Bridge of Djoum]

7 hours ago, mitch41 said:

I don’t hate anyone my wee pal. Football is all about opinions and you should listen to me when i’m preachings 

on a Saturday in my club where I have a large following. The cost is : a pint of best & a drambuie.

Royal Ed has a club that sells alcohol?

[Kiwidoug]

I'm highly suspicious of the OP's motives.  I would just say that under our three most recent successful regimes, the success was immediately followed by a fire sale/clear out.  1998, 2006 and 2012.

 

That will most certainly not happen now.  Our management and governance is superb and is very likely to remain so.  We have probably never bern in such a strong position in our history and success on the field as a result is extremely likely, possibly as soon as next month.

 

Would request that the OP make his next anti-Hearts drivel a lot more concise.

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

2 hours ago, Kiwidoug said:

I'm highly suspicious of the OP's motives.  I would just say that under our three most recent successful regimes, the success was immediately followed by a fire sale/clear out.  1998, 2006 and 2012.

 

That will most certainly not happen now.  Our management and governance is superb and is very likely to remain so.  We have probably never bern in such a strong position in our history and success on the field as a result is extremely likely, possibly as soon as next month.

 

our management and governance is superb

 

Is it?

 

Who's tested it?

 

Why was the stand so over-budget and still not complete? Is it raking in the revenue the experts on here were salivating about?

 

 

[I.T.K]

39 minutes ago, MoncurMacdonaldMercer said:

 

our management and governance is superb

 

Is it?

 

Who's tested it?

 

Why was the stand so over-budget and still not complete? Is it raking in the revenue the experts on here were salivating about?

 

 

 

You could easily benchmark our governance against the former. Pie man, Romanov etc.  

 

The stand is delayed and over budget because the architects did a rush job and the plans were later revised. 

 

With the larger capacity, new shop, and bar I'm confident its already making more money than the old stand.  

[JamboAl]

40 minutes ago, MoncurMacdonaldMercer said:

 

our management and governance is superb

 

Is it?

 

Who's tested it?

 

Why was the stand so over-budget and still not complete? Is it raking in the revenue the experts on here were salivating about?

 

 

All contributors to FoH appear to have done their own tests as they keep faith by continuing to contribute.

I don't know if it's raking in the revenue YET and, more to the point, you don't either.  Maybe the next accounts will tell us unless you have some insider knowledge before then.

My understanding is that it is not complete because of certain changes to the original plan and AB's reluctance to take us back to our debt-ridden days to expedite completion.  I don't think she wants a Scottish Parliament type fiasco.

[Bazzas right boot]

50 minutes ago, MoncurMacdonaldMercer said:

 

our management and governance is superb

 

Is it?

 

Who's tested it?

 

Why was the stand so over-budget and still not complete? Is it raking in the revenue the experts on here were salivating about?

 

 

 

 

You're on to something. 

 

The Old, crumbling smaller stand was better. 

We should have kept it. 

 

?

[Jammy T]

3 hours ago, Kiwidoug said:

I'm highly suspicious of the OP's motives.  I would just say that under our three most recent successful regimes, the success was immediately followed by a fire sale/clear out.  1998, 2006 and 2012.

 

That will most certainly not happen now.  Our management and governance is superb and is very likely to remain so.  We have probably never bern in such a strong position in our history and success on the field as a result is extremely likely, possibly as soon as next month.

 

Would request that the OP make his next anti-Hearts drivel a lot more concise.

 

Highly suspicious of my motives?

 

You think I am H or something?

 

PMSL