U.S. Politics megathread (merged)

[kila]

5 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

I take your point, but I do like the idea of countries producing their own goods like steel, aluminium, food, fuel etc, particularly now with the energy it takes to transport such thing around the world, but I'm in no way pretending to be an expert economist!

I'd be interested to see, in a few years, if the shortfall has been met, there has to be jobs and money in the increased volume needed.

 

Trade helps prevent wars though - would too many countries being that self sufficient eventually see us with another world war?

 

[Maple Leaf]

7 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

I take your point, but I do like the idea of countries producing their own goods like steel, aluminium, food, fuel etc, particularly now with the energy it takes to transport such thing around the world, but I'm in no way pretending to be an expert economist!

I'd be interested to see, in a few years, if the shortfall has been met, there has to be jobs and money in the increased volume needed.

There are pros and cons to international trade, no question.  The impact of transportation on the environment, as you mentioned, is one of the cons.  It's a complex topic.

 

[Dawnrazor]

Just now, kila said:

 

Trade helps prevent wars though - would too many countries being that self sufficient eventually see us with another world war?

 

I'm not sure how more countries being more self sufficient would lead to another world war? Like I said, I'm not expert.

[Dawnrazor]

2 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said:

There are pros and cons to international trade, no question.  The impact of transportation on the environment, as you mentioned, is one of the cons.  It's a complex topic.

 

If the areas in the US that produce metals start seeing more jobs and more money in their communities, would that be a bad thing? I suppose it could see support grow for Trump.

 

[milky_26]

1 minute ago, Dawnrazor said:

I'm not sure how more countries being more self sufficient would lead to another world war? Like I said, I'm not expert.

some countries will see others with something they want and try to take it by force

[kila]

Just now, Dawnrazor said:

I'm not sure how more countries being more self sufficient would lead to another world war? Like I said, I'm not expert.

 

Border disputes, especially if there's materials, minerals etc to be found. Without trade, a country is fully dependent on itself to overcome shortfalls.

 

Already seeing what Trump fancies claiming outside US borders.

 

[Dawnrazor]

Just now, milky_26 said:

some countries will see others with something they want and try to take it by force

Possibly 🤷

[Watt-Zeefuik]

7 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said:

There are pros and cons to international trade, no question.  The impact of transportation on the environment, as you mentioned, is one of the cons.  It's a complex topic.

 

 

True, but if they're making steel in Vancouver for a project in Seattle, that makes a lot more sense environmentally than making it in Pittsburgh.

 

Like, not making steel in China for the US and dragging it across the Pacific, I get. But (as you know as well as I do) Canada's population and industry are already so tightly linked to the US's, it's kind of a different story.

[Dawnrazor]

Just now, kila said:

 

Border disputes, especially if there's materials, minerals etc to be found. Without trade, a country is fully dependent on itself to overcome shortfalls.

 

Already seeing what Trump fancies claiming outside US borders.

 

Yep, but there has to be a focus on reducing, where possible, the transportation of goods that could be "home grown" in the drive to reduce carbons in the atmosphere, just look at the debacle that I'd Drax power station🤦

I honestly thought that with the invasion of the Ukraine, and the subsequent rise in food prices due to the lack of grain being exported, self sufficiency would be more of a priority .

[kila]

Just now, Dawnrazor said:

Yep, but there has to be a focus on reducing, where possible, the transportation of goods that could be "home grown" in the drive to reduce carbons in the atmosphere, just look at the debacle that I'd Drax power station🤦

I honestly thought that with the invasion of the Ukraine, and the subsequent rise in food prices due to the lack of grain being exported, self sufficiency would be more of a priority .

 

Aye and to be honest, I think in the long run we're all ****ed either way

 

Trade to try prevent wars but global transportation contributes to climate change, or self dependancy meeting climate targets but getting increasingly jealous of a neighbouring country who has more in the ground than it needs.

 

[Dawnrazor]

Just now, kila said:

 

Aye and to be honest, I think in the long run we're all ****ed either way

 

Trade to try prevent wars but global transportation contributes to climate change, or self dependancy meeting climate targets but getting increasingly jealous of a neighbouring country who has more in the ground than it needs.

 

We need to export more Irn Bru, Tablet, Snowbaws, Empire Biscuits and Scotch Pies to prevent future wars 👍

[Dawnrazor]

1 minute ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Surprised the hand wringing lefties havent tried to cancel the term "Empire Biscuit" yet. 

Some called it a German Biscuit, but my Granny wouldn't have anything German in the house, so Empire Biscuit it was 😂 

*Edit*

She viewed Catholics on the same level a Germans and anything German 🤦😂

Edited February 12, 2025 by Dawnrazor

[kila]

8 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

We need to export more Irn Bru, Tablet, Snowbaws, Empire Biscuits and Scotch Pies to prevent future wars 👍

 

They'll all be wanting a taste of our girders

 

[Maple Leaf]

5 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Surprised the hand wringing lefties havent tried to cancel the term "Empire Biscuit" yet. 

 

3 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

Some called it a German Biscuit, but my Granny wouldn't have anything German in the house, so Empire Biscuit it was 😂 

*Edit*

She viewed Catholics on the same level a Germans and anything German 🤦😂

Yes, the name changed from German biscuits to Empire biscuits during WWI.  For similar reasons, Berlin Ontario was renamed Kitchener .  All a bit before my time.   

[Dawnrazor]

1 minute ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

Yes, the name changed from German biscuits to Empire biscuits during WWI.  For similar reasons, Berlin Ontario was renamed Kitchener .  All a bit before my time.   

And German Shepherd Dogs became Alsatians and Dachshund became Sausage Dogs.

[Bairnjambo]

Is part of the problem with tariffs that countries get into tit for tat imposition?

[Cade]

Trade wars are, and always have been, nothing less than bullying and blackmail.

Both sides lose money and inflation rises for everybody.

Whoever has the largest cash reserve can hold out longer and "wins" the trade war.

 

This is about Trump acting billy big baws and trying to force people into signing unfavourable treaties or deals.

[Maple Leaf]

2 minutes ago, Cade said:

Trade wars are, and always have been, nothing less than bullying and blackmail.

Both sides lose money and inflation rises for everybody.

Whoever has the largest cash reserve can hold out longer and "wins" the trade war.

 

This is about Trump acting billy big baws and trying to force people into signing unfavourable treaties or deals.

That's the way I look at it.

 

What has irked Canadians (and I assume Mexicans)  is that we have a trade deal with the US which Trump negotiated right at the end of his first term.  It's called USMCA and it replaced NAFTA which had been in place for many years. He described the new trade deal, his trade deal, as the best in the history of the US. 

 

Now, in the first days of his second term, he says that Canada and Mexico are taking advantage of the US.   No we're not.  We're complying with the terms of Trump's deal.

 

If there are problems with Trump's trade deal, rather than telling Canada and Mexico that there are issues that need to be resolved, he throws a grenade into the room without warning.  The grenade is the threat about tariffs.  How it will all end is anyone's guess but, you're right, nobody wins in a trade war.

[Lone Striker]

1 hour ago, Maple Leaf said:

I watched Trump sign the Executive Order yesterday imposing 25% tariffs on imported steel and aluminum.  After signing it, he announced "Making America Rich Again."

 

That convinced me, one more, that he doesn't understand that a tariff is a tax, and that tax is paid by Americans.  A tax on Americans can't make America richer.

 

Is he really that dumb, or is he assuming that his followers are that dumb?

To give Trump a tiny (very tiny) modicum of logic about this .... it can be argued that putting BIG tariffs on imports might be enough to dampen down  demand within the U.S. for these foreign-made goods if consumers and businesses who use these items  can find alternative suppliers within the U.S.

 

I think thats his long-term aim - producers abroad either open up a manufacturing facility in the U.S.  to supply the U.S. market, or else they're likely to lose a large chunk of their overseas (U.S.) business - unless (of course) there's no alternative supplier anywhere in the world who can produce the same quality at a similar price, in which case U.S. businesses/consumers would have to pay the higher price.   But since China manufactures pretty much anything you can think of, it seems likely that Chinese manufacturers could still be beneficiaries of Trumpism in terms of export volumes -  although that could change and just become a 25-25 score-draw if    Trump increases the tariff on China  further.

 

Trump's aim to take over the Panama Canal was probably part of his trade re-balancing project, aimed at charging the Chinese to use it and reducing its availability to them.

 

Its possibly all just pie in the sky though - maybe Trump's tactic is just akin to being a bull in a china shop, smashing and breaking stuff to look important & tough to his cult followers.   

 

Now he's threatening to withdraw from NATO (again), while looking to take full credit for stopping military support for Ukraine unless it gives America various important natural  elements and pushing Zelensky to give up land to appease Putin.   

What a guy .... not in a good way though 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

15 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

To give Trump a tiny (very tiny) modicum of logic about this .... it can be argued that putting BIG tariffs on imports might be enough to dampen down  demand within the U.S. for these foreign-made goods if consumers and businesses who use these items  can find alternative suppliers within the U.S.

 

I think thats his long-term aim - producers abroad either open up a manufacturing facility in the U.S.  to supply the U.S. market, or else they're likely to lose a large chunk of their overseas (U.S.) business - unless (of course) there's no alternative supplier anywhere in the world who can produce the same quality at a similar price, in which case U.S. businesses/consumers would have to pay the higher price.   But since China manufactures pretty much anything you can think of, it seems likely that Chinese manufacturers could still be beneficiaries of Trumpism in terms of export volumes -  although that could change and just become a 25-25 score-draw if    Trump increases the tariff on China  further.

 

Trump's aim to take over the Panama Canal was probably part of his trade re-balancing project, aimed at charging the Chinese to use it and reducing its availability to them.

 

Its possibly all just pie in the sky though - maybe Trump's tactic is just akin to being a bull in a china shop, smashing and breaking stuff to look important & tough to his cult followers.   

 

Now he's threatening to withdraw from NATO (again), while looking to take full credit for stopping military support for Ukraine unless it gives America various important natural  elements and pushing Zelensky to give up land to appease Putin.   

What a guy .... not in a good way though 

 

In his business dealings Trump is famous for not paying his bills and trying to renegotiate lower prices for work after it's done. I honestly think that's what almost all of this is about. Swing America's global status around like a cheap club trying to strong arm marginal improvements in trade deals.

 

There's a time this might have been a good idea in selfish terms, even while being obnoxious, unethical, and bullying. But I think we've really turned a corner to the point that all of this (the tariffs, the deportations, the abrupt yanking of aid) is playing directly into China's hands. Right when China's economic growth has been faltering, we're driving the world to their doorstep for things like aid, technology, and investment.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

Of the four truly toxic nominees, Hegseth is now confirmed and doing stupid shit (and getting walked out on by American middle schoolers in Germany), Gabbard just got confirmed. RFK, Jr. is set to be confirmed on a party line vote (which is pretty amazing for the scion of a Democratic dynasty).

 

That leaves Patel, whose nomination seems to be the most uncertain. But given the votes the others have gotten, I'm not holding out much hope.

Edited February 12, 2025 by Watt-Zeefuik

[redjambo]

1 hour ago, Dawnrazor said:

And German Shepherd Dogs became Alsatians and Dachshund became Sausage Dogs.

 

The former I concede, but it was done not because of sensibilities, more because it was thought that it would harm the popularity of the breed after WW1 to have "German" in the name.

 

The latter, though, nah.

 

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=sausage+dog%2Cdachshund&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&corpus=29&smoothing=3&direct_url=t1%3B%2Csausage dog%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cdachshund%3B%2Cc0

[redjambo]

34 minutes ago, Watt-Zeefuik said:

 

In his business dealings Trump is famous for not paying his bills and trying to renegotiate lower prices for work after it's done. I honestly think that's what almost all of this is about. Swing America's global status around like a cheap club trying to strong arm marginal improvements in trade deals.

 

There's a time this might have been a good idea in selfish terms, even while being obnoxious, unethical, and bullying. But I think we've really turned a corner to the point that all of this (the tariffs, the deportations, the abrupt yanking of aid) is playing directly into China's hands. Right when China's economic growth has been faltering, we're driving the world to their doorstep for things like aid, technology, and investment.

 

[Canscot]

3 hours ago, Maple Leaf said:

That's the way I look at it.

 

What has irked Canadians (and I assume Mexicans)  is that we have a trade deal with the US which Trump negotiated right at the end of his first term.  It's called USMCA and it replaced NAFTA which had been in place for many years. He described the new trade deal, his trade deal, as the best in the history of the US. 

 

Now, in the first days of his second term, he says that Canada and Mexico are taking advantage of the US.   No we're not.  We're complying with the terms of Trump's deal.

 

If there are problems with Trump's trade deal, rather than telling Canada and Mexico that there are issues that need to be resolved, he throws a grenade into the room without warning.  The grenade is the threat about tariffs.  How it will all end is anyone's guess but, you're right, nobody wins in a trade war.

I heard one of his rants/rambles the other day about how only a fool would have signed that trade deal!

Donnie. You just need to look in the mirror to see who the fool who signed it was🙄

 

[Lone Striker]

2 hours ago, Watt-Zeefuik said:

But I think we've really turned a corner to the point that all of this (the tariffs, the deportations, the abrupt yanking of aid) is playing directly into China's hands. Right when China's economic growth has been faltering, we're driving the world to their doorstep for things like aid, technology, and investment.

Seems a distinct possibility that the very stable business genius might end up doing exactly that.  Suddenly China's human rights record and authoritarian  version of (non) democracy doesn't seem quite so outlandish when compared to the last 3 weeks of Trump's White House.     Its also very weird how Trump claims to admire Xi for his rod-of iron rule over his people, but at the same time unleashes more "tariffs, baby, tariffs" on them.

1 hour ago, Watt-Zeefuik said:

Of the four truly toxic nominees, Hegseth is now confirmed and doing stupid shit (and getting walked out on by American middle schoolers in Germany), Gabbard just got confirmed. RFK, Jr. is set to be confirmed on a party line vote (which is pretty amazing for the scion of a Democratic dynasty).

 

That leaves Patel, whose nomination seems to be the most uncertain. But given the votes the others have gotten, I'm not holding out much hope.

Isn't Gabbard another ex-Dem ?   Again, very weird why she and RFK would see nothing wrong in jumping ship to serve under a radical authoritarian MAGA dictator.  Says a lot about their scruples.

 

Patel sounds a very dangerous and bitter man - presumably thats why Trump picked him. 😲

 

 

[Ulysses]

3 hours ago, Bairnjambo said:

Is part of the problem with tariffs that countries get into tit for tat imposition?

 

Part of it.  But nowadays an even bigger issue is the complexity of supply chains.  It's all very well a country imposing tariffs and sitting back waiting for businesses to shift their production to the homeland from abroad, but given how complex some products are and the complicated way they and their components are made, assembled and shipped, (i) it can take ages to actually build all the production facilities that are needed, (ii) in the meantime some products will end up being subjected to multiple tariffs, driving up prices and inflation, and (iii) even if the tariffs succeed in shifting production, it will cost more to make and sell the stuff than it does today, which will drive up wage demands and fuel inflation in "the home country" even more.

 

But then of course you get tit-for-tat tariff imposition, and then things get even worse.

[Maple Leaf]

Tonight my sympathies are with Ukraine.

 

Trump is about to kiss Putin's ass and sell them down the river.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

2 hours ago, Lone Striker said:

Seems a distinct possibility that the very stable business genius might end up doing exactly that.  Suddenly China's human rights record and authoritarian  version of (non) democracy doesn't seem quite so outlandish when compared to the last 3 weeks of Trump's White House.     Its also very weird how Trump claims to admire Xi for his rod-of iron rule over his people, but at the same time unleashes more "tariffs, baby, tariffs" on them.

Isn't Gabbard another ex-Dem ?   Again, very weird why she and RFK would see nothing wrong in jumping ship to serve under a radical authoritarian MAGA dictator.  Says a lot about their scruples.

 

Patel sounds a very dangerous and bitter man - presumably thats why Trump picked him. 😲

 

 

 

Gabbard is an ex-Dem but she's always been a weirdo. She ran for the Democratic nomination for President on a very oddball platform. Never a serious contender obviously.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

Shocked, shocked I tell you.

 

[Dick Dastardly]

12 hours ago, Maple Leaf said:

That's the theory.  But in practical terms it isn't that easy.

 

It takes a long time, many years, and a huge capital investment, to build steel mills and aluminum smelters to ramp up to the capacity that you need to replace the imported material.  In the meantime, the consumers are paying for the higher costs created by the tariffs.

 

Trump tried tariffs on steel and aluminum in his previous Presidency.  They didn't work and he was forced to remove them after a few months.

👍 

Cheers. Not something i know much about!

[Lone Striker]

9 hours ago, Watt-Zeefuik said:

Shocked, shocked I tell you.

 

 

 

 

[jack D and coke]

Trump showing himself the utter ****nugget most people with half a brain knew he was. 
Ukraine must accept that Russia have won the land they invaded?!
Jesus christ. 

Edited February 13, 2025 by jack D and coke

[moonshine]

12 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

Part of it.  But nowadays an even bigger issue is the complexity of supply chains.  It's all very well a country imposing tariffs and sitting back waiting for businesses to shift their production to the homeland from abroad, but given how complex some products are and the complicated way they and their components are made, assembled and shipped, (i) it can take ages to actually build all the production facilities that are needed, (ii) in the meantime some products will end up being subjected to multiple tariffs, driving up prices and inflation, and (iii) even if the tariffs succeed in shifting production, it will cost more to make and sell the stuff than it does today, which will drive up wage demands and fuel inflation in "the home country" even more.

 

But then of course you get tit-for-tat tariff imposition, and then things get even worse.

This attempt at unpacking globalisation and supply chains is, ironically, a logistical nightmare. 

I doubt it is possible, and even he knows about the Panama canal so someone has managed to explain its strategic significance to the US - though his mention of the the military cost of using the passage is probably because it was the only way to get the dumb manbaby to pay attention. I suspect any discussion of trade gets a one-word reply from his singular IQ: "Tariffs".  

[CavySlaveJambo]

18 hours ago, Dawnrazor said:

We need to export more Irn Bru, Tablet, Snowbaws, Empire Biscuits and Scotch Pies to prevent future wars 👍

and Teacakes.  

[CavySlaveJambo]

14 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

Part of it.  But nowadays an even bigger issue is the complexity of supply chains.  It's all very well a country imposing tariffs and sitting back waiting for businesses to shift their production to the homeland from abroad, but given how complex some products are and the complicated way they and their components are made, assembled and shipped, (i) it can take ages to actually build all the production facilities that are needed, (ii) in the meantime some products will end up being subjected to multiple tariffs, driving up prices and inflation, and (iii) even if the tariffs succeed in shifting production, it will cost more to make and sell the stuff than it does today, which will drive up wage demands and fuel inflation in "the home country" even more.

 

But then of course you get tit-for-tat tariff imposition, and then things get even worse.

and then the domestic producers ramp up the prices to match the price of the imported goods.   And the newly built facilities will add the cost of the build on to the product price.  Plus the increased costs involved in domestic production.   So the consumer loses that way too 

 

 

[Gerry1874]

12 hours ago, Maple Leaf said:

Tonight my sympathies are with Ukraine.

 

Trump is about to kiss Putin's ass and sell them down the river.

My sympathy for Ukraine doesn't run deep. They knew what they were doing with Putin and continued to poke the bear. They want to have a war with the rest of us footing the bill they can do one. 

[Maple Leaf]

11 minutes ago, Gerry1874 said:

My sympathy for Ukraine doesn't run deep. They knew what they were doing with Putin and continued to poke the bear. They want to have a war with the rest of us footing the bill they can do one. 

Fair enough.  I'm not going to get into it here as there's an entire thread about the war in Ukraine. 

[Canscot]

12 hours ago, Watt-Zeefuik said:

Shocked, shocked I tell you.

 

They can use them as car bombs. Enough of them seem to blow up!

[Watt-Zeefuik]

RFK confirmed. As expected after this week.

[Maple Leaf]

13 minutes ago, Watt-Zeefuik said:

RFK confirmed. As expected after this week.

It would take four Republicans to vote against Trump's choice, and that just ain't gonna happen.

[Mac_fae_Gillie]

As much as I detest Trump he impresses me cuss he manages to get me to hate him even more every day.

On a side note, what the hell is congress doing, are they so scared of Trump they will let him take the USA back 120years

[Canscot]

5 minutes ago, Mac_fae_Gillie said:

As much as I detest Trump he impresses me cuss he manages to get me to hate him even more every day.

On a side note, what the hell is congress doing, are they so scared of Trump they will let him take the USA back 120years

It certainly looks that way!

[ToadKiller Dog]

21 minutes ago, Mac_fae_Gillie said:

As much as I detest Trump he impresses me cuss he manages to get me to hate him even more every day.

On a side note, what the hell is congress doing, are they so scared of Trump they will let him take the USA back 120years

It's more fear of musk for republicans as he has threatened them with spending millions on maga types to stand against them if they don't do as told .

It's self preservation and feck the voters .

Standard careerist cowardice .

 

To be fair they also face intimidation and possible threat to life from trumps storm troopers like the proud boys 

 

Edited February 13, 2025 by ToadKiller Dog

[biglaff]

3 hours ago, Gerry1874 said:

My sympathy for Ukraine doesn't run deep. They knew what they were doing with Putin and continued to poke the bear. They want to have a war with the rest of us footing the bill they can do one. 

Utter nonsense. What the hell is it with cowards these days. There was a time when real men stood up to tyrants.

[Gerry1874]

12 minutes ago, biglaff said:

Utter nonsense. What the hell is it with cowards these days. There was a time when real men stood up to tyrants.

A wealthy country that never once thought to invest in its own military but happy for us to cut our cloth and send them billions. Oscar winning performance by the pint sized actor.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

2 hours ago, Maple Leaf said:

It would take four Republicans to vote against Trump's choice, and that just ain't gonna happen.

 

McConnell, ironically enough given his old reputation as the hard driver of party unity, was the only GOP member to vote no.

 

1 hour ago, Mac_fae_Gillie said:

As much as I detest Trump he impresses me cuss he manages to get me to hate him even more every day.

On a side note, what the hell is congress doing, are they so scared of Trump they will let him take the USA back 120years

 

In short, yes. Every Republican member of Congress that stood up to him has been forced into retirement or primaried, with a couple of very rare exceptions. They are a party of his toadies now.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

Well, this is getting exciting. Justice ordered the acting US Attorney for the Southern District of New York (explicitly appointed by Trump to hold down the fort while they get the permanent nominee approved) to move to dismiss Eric Adams' corruption case. She resigned instead of doing it.

 

Quoting Josh Marshall on the rest:

 

"After Sassoon resigned they moved on to the head of the Public Integrity Section in DC. He refused/resigned. Then they went to the head of the Criminal Division. He refused/resigned. [Acting deputy AG] Bove himself may end up doing this. Worth noting that these are all “actings” — that’s generally someone you choose from the staff to run things while your nominees move through the confirmation process. So these would appear all to be people the Trump politicals chose or were at least comfortable with letting take over on an acting basis."

 

This is of course because Adams' guilt is bald-faced and self-evident, and dismissing the case is as rancid an act of open corruption as you can find. It's so bad that a bunch of (former arch-conservative SCOTUS justice) Scalia acolytes would rather fall on their swords than dismiss the case.

[IMac]

14 hours ago, Gerry1874 said:

A wealthy country that never once thought to invest in its own military but happy for us to cut our cloth and send them billions. Oscar winning performance by the pint sized actor.

good god man. You don't need to have an opinion on everything. stay off the internet. 

[Seymour M Hersh]

On 13/02/2025 at 03:29, Watt-Zeefuik said:

Shocked, shocked I tell you.

 

 

Only one problem with that. It was Biden that gave Tesla the contract. 

[moonshine]

1 hour ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Only one problem with that. It was Biden that gave Tesla the contract. 

Surely the head of DOGE could cancel the contract as part of his review of spending...

I'll leave that for you to figure out. Take your time.