stadium planning application

[darylhmfc1]

I know all the focus has been on who's gonna be the new manager but has anyone got any info on the main stand planning application? The council are sure taking there time on this one!!

[Serge]

I know all the focus has been on who's gonna be the new manager but has anyone got any info on the main stand planning application? The council are sure taking there time on this one!!

 

Daryl sure makes a good point! :hobofish:

[topcat]

I know all the focus has been on who's gonna be the new manager but has anyone got any info on the main stand planning application? The council are sure taking there time on this one!!

 

There's been no more correspondance added on the planning portal

http://citydev-portal.edinburgh.gov.uk/publicaccess/tdc/tdc_home.aspx

(Reference 08/00161/FUL)

Since Transport Scotland's letter nine weeks ago which said that they had no issues with it.

 

I've been through all the feedback from interested bodies and while some have niggles and minor suggestions there weren't any big time showstoppers in there.

 

The best hope for Hobo strawclutchers and Jambos who like being miserable is that by the time permission is granted the economic situation will have shifted and the financial viability of the whole development will be undermined.

[lambojambo]

There's been no more correspondance added on the planning portal

http://citydev-portal.edinburgh.gov.uk/publicaccess/tdc/tdc_home.aspx

(Reference 08/00161/FUL)

Since Transport Scotland's letter nine weeks ago which said that they had no issues with it.

 

I've been through all the feedback from interested bodies and while some have niggles and minor suggestions there weren't any big time showstoppers in there.

 

The best hope for Hobo strawclutchers and Jambos who like being miserable is that by the time permission is granted the economic situation will have shifted and the financial viability of the whole development will be undermined.

 

 

It already has!

 

I work in the construction sector and future industry prospects are bleak over the next 2 - 3 years.

 

Romanovs business plan on funding for the development and any sell on or lease income, are now well and truly sunk by the world credit squeeze hitting ALL economies.

[Dunks]

Is that Vlads fault too then?

[darylhmfc1]

i have made a good point but im certainly no manky junkie hobo ****ball!!

[lambojambo]

Is that Vlads fault too then?

 

 

 

No I'm not saying the current economic credit crunch is Vlads fault.

 

The facts are that the all the banks are short of cash (fluidity in banking terms) and that will include Vlads bank.

 

For a development of this size he always required to get a major UK bank to buy in as a partner for a share of the equity.

 

The huge problem is RBS, HBOS, etc, are not lending to anybody - much less a perceived madman tagging a hotel/office development on to a football stadium, that could lie empty for the forseeable future.

 

This development is dead in the water!

[the voice from above]

No I'm not saying the current economic credit crunch is Vlads fault.

 

The facts are that the all the banks are short of cash (fluidity in banking terms) and that will include Vlads bank.

 

For a development of this size he always required to get a major UK bank to buy in as a partner for a share of the equity.

 

The huge problem is RBS, HBOS, etc, are not lending to anybody - much less a perceived madman tagging a hotel/office development on to a football stadium, that could lie empty for the forseeable future.

 

This development is dead in the water!

 

Well you've cheered me right up.

 

Thank god I can come on here and get expert financial opinion.

 

In summing up, we're doomed right? the end of the world is nigh?

 

Happy Days. God bless you Lambo!

[rudi]

No I'm not saying the current economic credit crunch is Vlads fault.

 

The facts are that the all the banks are short of cash (fluidity in banking terms) and that will include Vlads bank.

 

For a development of this size he always required to get a major UK bank to buy in as a partner for a share of the equity.

 

The huge problem is RBS, HBOS, etc, are not lending to anybody - much less a perceived madman tagging a hotel/office development on to a football stadium, that could lie empty for the forseeable future.

 

This development is dead in the water!

 

Yup,as you say, you work in the consrtuction sector,as does a few of my mates,companies and I mean huge multi-million pound companies,are laying of their staff due to the economic crunch and ,as you say,this is a 2-4 year recession,building sites all over Britain have been shut down,so IMO and men who are in the know,this is a dead duck right now.

[topcat]

It already has!

 

I work in the construction sector and future industry prospects are bleak over the next 2 - 3 years.

 

Romanovs business plan on funding for the development and any sell on or lease income, are now well and truly sunk by the world credit squeeze hitting ALL economies.

 

Yes Indeed things have tightened up considerably which is why I said that the biggest question marks are now over the funding rather than the planning.

 

One silver lining is that construction costs are liable to be reduced as the supply of labour and plant begins to outstrip demand and people like you have to compete harder for business.

 

Another is that the project would complete in 2011 which means that the current turbulence will have subsided. If the construction had started in 2006 then the project would be looking very dodgy indeed right now but by 2011 conditions should be a bit more normal.

 

Ultimately it's a question for UBIG to decide whether to bet on the market stabilising over the next two or three years or not.

[Carl Spackler]

Utter bollocks (not TC's post above, the doommonger's posts). If there's need for bed spaces then a hotel is viable. Edinburgh has a huge projected requirement according to recent news reports. Sure securing funding coud be tricky but to say there's a moratorium on all construction projects is just nonsense.

 

And I do work in the Construction Industry.

 

I would concede demand for seats in the stand is presently a far more unpredicatable matter however.

[rudi]

Yes Indeed things have tightened up considerably which is why I said that the biggest question marks are now over the funding rather than the planning.

 

One silver lining is that construction costs are liable to be reduced as the supply of labour and plant begins to outstrip demand and people like you have to compete harder for business.

Another is that the project would complete in 2011 which means that the current turbulence will have subsided. If the construction had started in 2006 then the project would be looking very dodgy indeed right now but by 2011 conditions should be a bit more normal.

 

Ultimately it's a question for UBIG to decide whether to bet on the market stabilising over the next two or three years or not.

 

It's now to do with that,it's the supply of materials,the cost to transport thing's, also the down turn in to pound.

 

Don't think that because you think labour will be cheaper the overall cost will come down,that is why building sites are closing,they cannot afford the costs of transporting good's etc.

[jkato]

I stand to be corrected, but doesn't the health & safety certificate on the old stand expire at the end of this/next season (the summer 0f 2009) ?

[hawaii]

Can I ask those that work in the sector who say that work is drying up to answer me this. If there is no work then why are there ruddy cones all over the Edinburgh bypass and the city centre has more punters walking about in yellow jackets and hard hats than there are shoppers??

[Mon]

No I'm not saying the current economic credit crunch is Vlads fault.

 

The facts are that the all the banks are short of cash (fluidity in banking terms) and that will include Vlads bank.

 

For a development of this size he always required to get a major UK bank to buy in as a partner for a share of the equity.

 

The huge problem is RBS, HBOS, etc, are not lending to anybody - much less a perceived madman tagging a hotel/office development on to a football stadium, that could lie empty for the forseeable future.

 

This development is dead in the water!

 

 

This is true Ukio Bankas shares are dropping again.

 

http://www.baltic.omxnordicexchange.com/market/?instrument=LT0000102352&list=2&pg=details&tab=historical&lang=en&currency=0&date=&period=6months&start_d=27&start_m=12&start_y=2007&end_d=27&end_m=6&end_y=2008&period=month

[rudi]

Can I ask those that work in the sector who say that work is drying up to answer me this. If there is no work then why are there ruddy cones all over the Edinburgh bypass and the city centre has more punters walking about in yellow jackets and hard hats than there are shoppers??

 

Kind of different thing altogether.

[Guest jambomickey]

believe the new stand when i see it with my own eyes

[topcat]

It's now to do with that,it's the supply of materials,the cost to transport thing's, also the down turn in to pound.

 

Don't think that because you think labour will be cheaper the overall cost will come down,that is why building sites are closing,they cannot afford the costs of transporting good's etc.

 

I did say I was talking about "silver linings" which clearly implied that I recognised the existence of the clouds and even in my original post I made it clear that there were still plenty of reasons for people like you to remain hopeful.

[Carl Spackler]

Can I ask those that work in the sector who say that work is drying up to answer me this. If there is no work then why are there ruddy cones all over the Edinburgh bypass and the city centre has more punters walking about in yellow jackets and hard hats than there are shoppers??

The government's got plenty money for the roads raking in all that cash from petrol duty don't you know?!

[hawaii]

Sorry if I sound harsh, but I don't feel a lot of sympathy towards those in the construction industry after the bill for the Scottish Parliament.

 

At least Dick Turpin wore a mask when he robbed folk.

[jambonian]

I know all the focus has been on who's gonna be the new manager but has anyone got any info on the main stand planning application? The council are sure taking there time on this one!!

This application for the new stand has been going on since the other 3 were built, in otherwords, that stand will never be built so get used to it, don't know how many different designs of stand i've seen over the last 12 years or so. We'll just have to stick with the old one as Edinburgh district council have no ambition, and never have, no matter who controls it. The only thing that lot have done was spend millions on a Parliament building we never needed in the first place.(there were plenty options to refurbish exsisting buildings) Most Capital cities show willing and change for the future of the country, sadly, not ours!

[the guvner]

Is that Vlads fault too then?

 

yes................

[Carl Spackler]

This application for the new stand has been going on since the other 3 were built, in otherwords, that stand will never be built so get used to it, don't know how many different designs of stand i've seen over the last 12 years or so. We'll just have to stick with the old one as Edinburgh district council have no ambition, and never have, no matter who controls it. The only thing that lot have done was spend millions on a Parliament building we never needed in the first place.(there were plenty options to refurbish exsisting buildings) Most Capital cities show willing and change for the future of the country, sadly, not ours!

So putting aside the fact that the parliament building was not an Edinburgh Council project anyway you would say creating a new building designed by a Spanish Architect next to an historic palace was not more ambitious than simply refurbishing an old school?

[redm]

No I'm not saying the current economic credit crunch is Vlads fault.

 

The facts are that the all the banks are short of cash (fluidity in banking terms) and that will include Vlads bank.

 

For a development of this size he always required to get a major UK bank to buy in as a partner for a share of the equity.

 

The huge problem is RBS, HBOS, etc, are not lending to anybody - much less a perceived madman tagging a hotel/office development on to a football stadium, that could lie empty for the forseeable future.

 

This development is dead in the water!

 

Banks are just one of a variety of investment sources for developments like this. I'm not being pedantic, I do get your point that things are slightly difficult right now (to put it mildly) but there are a huge number of investment vehicles set up specifically to speculate when times are rough and this is exactly the sort of gig they go for.

 

Banks aren't the be-all and end-all. Although they are fairly important obviously.

[lambojambo]

Well you've cheered me right up.

 

Thank god I can come on here and get expert financial opinion.

 

In summing up, we're doomed right? the end of the world is nigh?

 

Happy Days. God bless you Lambo!

 

 

 

If you want cheered up then I suggest you read NOTHING about Hearts at present!

 

Don't shoot the messenger mate. Read the papers, pay attention to the News - we are ALL heading for a pretty bad time economically that WILL prejudice developments of this type going ahead.

 

The end of the world may not be nigh - but Banks are being hit by crippling debt and a basic lack of cash that will effect us all.

[jambonian]

So putting aside the fact that the parliament building was not an Edinburgh Council project anyway you would say creating a new building designed by a Spanish Architect next to an historic palace was not more ambitious than simply refurbishing an old school?

What! A building that's already falling to bits anyway, and looks out of place? Spanish architect? Don't we have any architects in UK? The building's a monstrosity, one of the most vile designs i've ever had the mis-fortune to look at! It may not have been an Edinburgh Council project but someone must've given it the go-ahead who's involved with them?

[lambojambo]

Utter bollocks (not TC's post above, the doommonger's posts). If there's need for bed spaces then a hotel is viable. Edinburgh has a huge projected requirement according to recent news reports. Sure securing funding coud be tricky but to say there's a moratorium on all construction projects is just nonsense.

 

And I do work in the Construction Industry.

 

I would concede demand for seats in the stand is presently a far more unpredicatable matter however.

 

 

 

"Utter bollocks"??? You obviously do not work in the finance department of your construction company.

 

The need for bed spaces is NOT the issue, and demand for seats in the stand is totally irrelevant!

 

Securing funding for this type of project is not "tricky" in the present financial near melt down conditions - it is near impossible!

 

There IS a moratorium on every planned major private development throughout the UK, and the plugs are being pulled - FACT!

[Carl Spackler]

What! A building that's already falling to bits anyway, and looks out of place? Spanish architect? Don't we have any architects in UK? The building's a monstrosity, one of the most vile designs i've ever had the mis-fortune to look at! It may not have been an Edinburgh Council project but someone must've given it the go-ahead who's involved with them?

I wasn't arguing the merits of the design. I was arguing the point that it was, as you insinuated, not ambitious.

[Carl Spackler]

"Utter bollocks"??? You obviously do not work in the finance department of your construction company.

 

The need for bed spaces is NOT the issue, and demand for seats in the stand is totally irrelevant!

 

Securing funding for this type of project is not "tricky" in the present financial near melt down conditions - it is near impossible!

 

There IS a moratorium on every planned major private development throughout the UK, and the plugs are being pulled - FACT!

Is that why I've been asked start the construction of a significantly large housing site within the next few weeks then?

[lambojambo]

Banks are just one of a variety of investment sources for developments like this. I'm not being pedantic, I do get your point that things are slightly difficult right now (to put it mildly) but there are a huge number of investment vehicles set up specifically to speculate when times are rough and this is exactly the sort of gig they go for.

 

Banks aren't the be-all and end-all. Although they are fairly important obviously.

 

 

Just like Banks, other "investment vehicles" are very careful where they put their money.

 

Right now these guys are putting their money into commodities like oil and steel. Pumping money into a building development when the UK economy has big problems ahead is no attraction to them.

 

Add in the factor that their partner would be some nutter from Lithuania then the chances of funding from them is frankly NIL!

[lambojambo]

Is that why I've been asked start the construction of a significantly large housing site within the next few weeks then?

 

 

Unless it is a housing development funded by the public purse (councils, housing associations) then I am surprised to hear that. Private house sales have dropped by 50% over the UK and getting a morgage is now at best expensive or impossible for some.

 

In this climate Barratt, Persimmon, etc, are dramatically slowing down their house build programmes.

 

Not withstanding the above, the Tynecastle development is not housing - it is for the leisure and commercial sector, both of which are about to take a big hit!

[lambojambo]

Sorry if I sound harsh, but I don't feel a lot of sympathy towards those in the construction industry after the bill for the Scottish Parliament.

 

At least Dick Turpin wore a mask when he robbed folk.

 

 

The guy that "robbed" the Scottish people was Donald Dewar. I know he is dead but he has a lot to answer for.

 

I was involved in the early stages of the concept for the building and Dewar would NOT listen to any people who knew anything about construction contracts.

 

He marched on and pressed the button, and committed the Scottish tax payer to paying for a building that had not been designed, had not been priced and he had no idea of what the programme would be.

 

He announced in the Assembly building that the new parliament would cost a max of ?40m and be built in 2 years. He had already been told that the type of contract that he was signing up to was a disaster and the likely costs could be as much as ?250k and take 4 years to build!

 

The rest is history!

[Carl Spackler]

Unless it is a housing development funded by the public purse (councils, housing associations) then I am surprised to hear that. Private house sales have dropped by 50% over the UK and getting a morgage is now at best expensive or impossible for some.

 

In this climate Barratt, Persimmon, etc, are dramatically slowing down their house build programmes.

 

Not withstanding the above, the Tynecastle development is not housing - it is for the leisure and commercial sector, both of which are about to take a big hit!

I don't disagree with you about the situation generally but the point I'm making is that there are companies who are capable of soldiering on. One thing you need to remember with Vlad is he made money when times were tough and took opportunities others didn't.

 

Anyway, I'm off. It's past my lunchtime and there's houses to build!

[Sheriff Fatman]

The guy that "robbed" the Scottish people was Donald Dewar. I know he is dead but he has a lot to answer for.

 

I was involved in the early stages of the concept for the building and Dewar would NOT listen to any people who knew anything about construction contracts.

 

He marched on and pressed the button, and committed the Scottish tax payer to paying for a building that had not been designed, had not been priced and he had no idea of what the programme would be.

 

He announced in the Assembly building that the new parliament would cost a max of ?40m and be built in 2 years. He had already been told that the type of contract that he was signing up to was a disaster and the likely costs could be as much as ?250k and take 4 years to build!

 

The rest is history!

 

I always laugh at those that moan about the cost of the Parliament. At the same time an office block for clerks and secretaries at Westminster was being built and after the cost of the land (which being London was obviously more expensive) the office block still cost far more than a Parliament building that is supposed to represent the political aspirations of the country. Whether the building meets those aspirations is a different matter entirely.

[lambojambo]

I don't disagree with you about the situation generally but the point I'm making is that there are companies who are capable of soldiering on. One thing you need to remember with Vlad is he made money when times were tough and took opportunities others didn't.

 

Anyway, I'm off. It's past my lunchtime and there's houses to build!

 

 

Just before you go Tommy -

 

Vlad made his money when the soviet block opened up, and for those willing to er let's say "do whatever it takes" to make money then some did!

 

Vlad is now operating in a UK where planning issues and banking is fully controlled by very tight regulation. This is a very different climate to the one where he made his millions.

[H J Simpson]

Give it 6 months and the funding will be in place. Just sit back and enjoy the sight of Rodney & Sergio giving a presentation in the Dragons Den and watch them fight over themselves to give us the cash!!!!

[Mr Quagmire]

Just before you go Tommy -

 

Vlad made his money when the soviet block opened up, and for those willing to er let's say "do whatever it takes" to make money then some did!

 

Vlad is now operating in a UK where planning issues and banking is fully controlled by very tight regulation. This is a very different climate to the one where he made his millions.

 

You dont know if its new year or new york my friend so how do you know how Vlad made his money ???

[jamborich]

"Utter bollocks"??? You obviously do not work in the finance department of your construction company.

 

The need for bed spaces is NOT the issue, and demand for seats in the stand is totally irrelevant!

 

Securing funding for this type of project is not "tricky" in the present financial near melt down conditions - it is near impossible!

 

There IS a moratorium on every planned major private development throughout the UK, and the plugs are being pulled - FACT!

 

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/06/24/sports/EU-SPT-SOC-Liverpool-Stadium.php

Liverpool begins work on new stadium, lease for land still to be signed - International Herald Tribune

 

Any idea why this is going ahead?

[redm]

Just like Banks, other "investment vehicles" are very careful where they put their money.

 

Right now these guys are putting their money into commodities like oil and steel. Pumping money into a building development when the UK economy has big problems ahead is no attraction to them.

 

Add in the factor that their partner would be some nutter from Lithuania then the chances of funding from them is frankly NIL!

 

Not necessarily true at all, this type of investment is almost never short term. Given that the market will recover, the current conditions won't necessarily be considered a negative. Particularly if it means getting a more competitive deal on the table.

 

That's not to say this is the way it'll happen, I haven't a clue. But poor market conditions aren't necessarily a bad thing for everyone....

[lambojambo]

I always laugh at those that moan about the cost of the Parliament. At the same time an office block for clerks and secretaries at Westminster was being built and after the cost of the land (which being London was obviously more expensive) the office block still cost far more than a Parliament building that is supposed to represent the political aspirations of the country. Whether the building meets those aspirations is a different matter entirely.

 

 

 

The Scottish taxpayer has a huge misconception of why the disgrace of the new parliament cost materialised.

 

I don't blame the public as the politicians all made sure the enquiry was a total fudge and white wash.

 

As I said in my post Dewar was the root cause of this disaster by comitting the Scottish taxpayer to a disaster of a type of contract.

 

Major PRIVATELY FUNDED projects are built in Scotland and they usually come in on time and on budget. Here's the way they work.

 

1. Appoint an Architect to finalise a design after full consultation on the actual requirements of the building user.

 

2. Appoint a QS to provide cost information to confirm the design will be in budget. If it is over budget get the Architect to change his design.

 

3. Once you have an agreed design, send it out to Contractors to price. This price to be a GMP (Guaranteed Maximum Price) - NO EXTRAS.

 

Dewar due to political expediency bashed on without implimenting this process, and led us down a disasterous path!

 

If Dewar had taken the advice of the professionals then it is the view of many that the cost would have been well under ?200m NOT the appalling ?500m it cost us all!

[Sheriff Fatman]

The Scottish taxpayer has a huge misconception of why the disgrace of the new parliament cost materialised.

 

I don't blame the public as the politicians all made sure the enquiry was a total fudge and white wash.

 

As I said in my post Dewar was the root cause of this disaster by comitting the Scottish taxpayer to a disaster of a type of contract.

 

Major PRIVATELY FUNDED projects are built in Scotland and they usually come in on time and on budget. Here's the way they work.

 

1. Appoint an Architect to finalise a design after full consultation on the actual requirements of the building user.

 

2. Appoint a QS to provide cost information to confirm the design will be in budget. If it is over budget get the Architect to change his design.

 

3. Once you have an agreed design, send it out to Contractors to price. This price to be a GMP (Guaranteed Maximum Price) - NO EXTRAS.

 

Dewar due to political expediency bashed on without implimenting this process, and led us down a disasterous path!

 

If Dewar had taken the advice of the professionals then it is the view of many that the cost would have been well under ?200m NOT the appalling ?500m it cost us all!

 

No arguements there, I just laugh at those that moan at the cost of a parliment, when it cost less than an office block for civil servants.

[lambojambo]

[/b]

 

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/06/24/sports/EU-SPT-SOC-Liverpool-Stadium.php

Liverpool begins work on new stadium, lease for land still to be signed - International Herald Tribune

 

Any idea why this is going ahead?

 

 

 

You're not suggesting we compare LFC with HMFC are you?

 

Not withstanding the above, the LFC business plan is for a new stadium. The future revenue comes from a big increase in capacity. Funding is already in place from the American shareholders and as LFC have a huge waiting list for ST the business plan is pretty sound.

 

Vlads development however is based on getting revenue from a commercial office development and a hotel. As I said in the predicted UK recession commercial and leisure sectors will take a hit, and therefore Vlads business plan is not sound!

[lambojambo]

You dont know if its new year or new york my friend so how do you know how Vlad made his money ???

 

 

Sorry you've lost me on that one - could you clarify?

[lambojambo]

Not necessarily true at all, this type of investment is almost never short term. Given that the market will recover, the current conditions won't necessarily be considered a negative. Particularly if it means getting a more competitive deal on the table.

 

That's not to say this is the way it'll happen, I haven't a clue. But poor market conditions aren't necessarily a bad thing for everyone....

 

 

And you're convinced that Vlads intentions are long term?

[lambojambo]

No arguements there, I just laugh at those that moan at the cost of a parliment, when it cost less than an office block for civil servants.

 

 

Just because they were pishing our money away at Westminster does not give them an excuse for pishing our money away at Holyrood!

[gorgie rd eh11]

I stand to be corrected, but doesn't the health & safety certificate on the old stand expire at the end of this/next season (the summer 0f 2009) ?

 

Are you any relation to the boring k**b, kato, who posts/posted on h**s net? With the mickey mouse avator and the JK (jakey) at the start of your username, plus the we're all doomed style, you fit the bill. Of course you won't be, who's sad enough to think that's funny?

[jamborich]

You're not suggesting we compare LFC with HMFC are you?

 

Not withstanding the above, the LFC business plan is for a new stadium. The future revenue comes from a big increase in capacity. Funding is already in place from the American shareholders and as LFC have a huge waiting list for ST the business plan is pretty sound.

 

Vlads development however is based on getting revenue from a commercial office development and a hotel. As I said in the predicted UK recession commercial and leisure sectors will take a hit, and therefore Vlads business plan is not sound!

 

I'm not suggesting anything, you stated as fact plugs were being pulled on most major private developments, I'm merely pointing out Liverpool as an exception.

 

Their stadium plans are costing ?300 million i am curios why you think it's a sound investment given the present climate.

[lambojambo]

I'm not suggesting anything, you stated as fact plugs were being pulled on most major private developments, I'm merely pointing out Liverpool as an exception.

 

Their stadium plans are costing ?300 million i am curios why you think it's a sound investment given the present climate.

 

 

You didn't bother reading my reply then?

[Coco]

lambojambo, I think it might be a first but I fully agree with you on your points on this thread.

 

The funding issue has always been the crucial one for the Tynecastle redevelopment. It may be that VR has other sources of finance for it (not Ukio Bankas, nor Western banks), but the past record of UBIG in property development is not very encouraging.

[lambojambo]

lambojambo, I think it might be a first but I fully agree with you on your points on this thread.

The funding issue has always been the crucial one for the Tynecastle redevelopment. It may be that VR has other sources of finance for it (not Ukio Bankas, nor Western banks), but the past record of UBIG in property development is not very encouraging.

 

 

Can't have that Coco!

 

 

Robbie is pish....there that should resume normal relations!